Airplane raffle / sweepstakes

[BrianS]

Can't make the show this year, or else I'd investigate myself.

I've seen some hints on social media about the new airplane raffle. It's a different format: limited number of tickets, and more expensive tickets.

But does anyone know - does this replace the traditional EAA Sweepstakes? I guess all things change, but as a kid those $1 tickets bought me a LOT of dreams. I kind of hate to see that go...

[PaulDow]

Right. It's now 4000 tickets at $100 each. I guess they'll need a much smaller Oshkosh cement mixer to dispense the winning ticket.
https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/eaa-airventure-news/eaa-airventure-oshkosh/06-20-2019-The-Great-EAA-Aircraft-Raffle-of-2019

I heard that on EAA Radio Monday morning.
It will be interesting to see how that system works compared to getting many more small donation tickets. Maybe interest declined so they're trying something new.

Another thing is due to the raffle rules tickets have to be purchased in Wisconsin, so no more mailing them in.

[dclaxon]

I don't like the new format at all. I could usually spring for $20 or $30 for sweepstakes tickets, but not $100. They're advertising that the chances are better with the limited number of tickets, but for many of us they have decreased our chances to 0!

[Mark17]

A few years ago at Oshkosh my dad and I stayed longer than usual and saw the drawing take place. There were 871,000 entries if I remember right. That might not be right but that’s the number I remember. I bought 20 bucks worth and I remember thinking I just wasted my 20 bucks. I’d rather have a legitimate shot at a prize like the young eagles mustang for 100 bucks then to buy 20 bucks in tickets only to find out I’m up against 871,000 others that did the same thing.

[odens_14]

If Mark17 #s are accurate, the accountant in me says the new raffle is a much better value; although still primarily a donation to EAA. if we assume a $150,000 value on the airplane in both scenarios. in his scenario you're getting a prize value of 17.2 cents per dollar. (150,000/871,000) under the new rules, assuming it fully sells out, it would be 37.5 cents per dollar (150,000/400,000).

However, I'm a little skeptical they were selling that many because why would EAA cap the value at $400,000 if they were more than double that under the old rules?? In light of the purchase in Wisconsin only rule I'm wondering if it's not due to a new Wisconsin law?

also, keep in mind the $40,000+ IRS and ~$10,000 state of Wisconsin tax bill if they win. That plus the ongoing operating/storage/maintenance cost isn't insignificant. Maybe EAA is trying to attract players that are more financially able to keep the plane vs. sell it immediately to cover expenses.

[Frank Giger]

Odens, it's not a "primarily" a donation to EAA, it's a complete, one hundred percent donation to the EAA Youth Programs. I know this because I now work for C&D Aviation, who is building it!

There were really two reasons for decreasing the amount of tickets and increasing the amount of each one from what I understand; first, now one has a decent chance at actually winning the darned thing; second, they'll actually make more money.

The last EAA giveaway Cub sat at Oshkosh for a year, as the winner either didn't have the cash for the taxes or didn't want a J3 Cub, and it was sold to someone who will fly the stew out of it. Someone plunks down 100 bucks for a chance and one knows they really want the aircraft.

[FlyingRon]

When they make the entry contingent on the payment, the "donation" given for the ticket ceases to be tax deductible.

[krw920]

The old sweepstakes were 100% a donation, and tax deductible. The new raffle rules state clearly that it is a purchase and NOT tax deductible. Also the drawing for the raffle is not until 7/20/20, so no plane will be given away this year.

[martymayes]

In the old raffle, one could enter simply by filling out a card. No donation was required. While there may have been 871,000 entries, doubtful a $1 donation accompanied each ticket.

[BrianS]

The last EAA giveaway Cub sat at Oshkosh for a year, as the winner either didn't have the cash for the taxes or didn't want a J3 Cub, and it was sold to someone who will fly the stew out of it. Someone plunks down 100 bucks for a chance and one knows they really want the aircraft.

Just following up on this - maybe it wasn't sold to someone who would fly the stew out of it, because here it seems to be listed again:

https://barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?id=1532905&catid=16400

[rwanttaja]

What's the certification category of the airplane? Is it an SLSA? Doesn't sound like it was would qualify as EAB, and I suspect it's not Standard category.

Edit: Never mind, I found it: SLSA.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

That is beautiful. $85,000 is a big number, but I wish I could go out to the airport and spend a half hour up sightseeing in a J 3 right now, today. It is a bit of magic, and that one even has the correct wooden prop on it.

[BrianS]

What's the certification category of the airplane? Is it an SLSA? Doesn't sound like it was would qualify as EAB, and I suspect it's not Standard category.

Edit: Never mind, I found it: SLSA.

Ron Wanttaja

Are you talking about the current raffle aircraft? This one?

https://eaa.org/-/media/Images/AirVenture/Give/6-11-19--AIrplane-Raffle-Main-575.ashx?h=711&w=575&la=en

[rwanttaja]

Are you talking about the current raffle aircraft? This one?
Yes...missed the bullet point about SLSA when I read it on my phone. Noticed it when I read it later on the desktop.

Ron "Squinty" Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

In the old raffle, one could enter simply by filling out a card. No donation was required. While there may have been 871,000 entries, doubtful a $1 donation accompanied each ticket.

The EAA plays the no donation required gambit for two reasons: one it avoids them running afoul of rules in states where a raffle (even to benefit a non-profit, i.e., void where prohibited by law). Second, it allows them to claim that any donations that accompany the raffle tickets are tax deductible. If it were a normal raffle, the fact that you have a chance of winning something, negates it being a donation and you can not deduct it.

[Airmutt]

I agree with the OP, a buck, five, even ten was a easy way to contribute to EAA and a dream of maybe winning a plane. Who wouldn’t like that? 100 is just too big a chunk and it just adds another log to the fire about EAA just chasing money and leaving the little guy behind.

If they were truly having issues with people taking possession of the plane then they should offer a lesser cash prize as an alternative. If you want the plane the rule should be you take possession at the next AV. The prize plane is then essentially built to order. And EAA gets another PR moment. It also gives the winner some time to get their finances & funds in order.

[malexander]

I saw the raffle last year. Didn't give it much thought, just spent my money somewhere else.

[Mayhemxpc]

I heard a couple of different commentators remark that when raising money for political candidates, the $20 donors are more important than the donors who give much larger amounts. The reason being that there are fewer willing to donate a large amount whereas as most potential voters for a candidate are willing to donate smaller amounts. Then, it is difficult to go back to the well with the larger donors, but you can do that several times with the smaller donors. If this is true for political candidates, it is probably much the same for raffle ticket donations.

There are probably more similarities than that, they but they don't immediately come to mind. I am sure that the two Ron's will have something to say on that ;-)

[Airmutt]

Yeah I heard the same thing. Think it’s a different situation for politicians.
A. Gives the average guy a way to “buy” into a campaign.
B. It’s easier to go back and ask for another contribution from the low dollar contributors.
B. Bolsters the contributor numbers for those that want to go the PAC donation route.

For a raffle where the ticket prices get above say $20 it’s kinda a once and done mindset. Ever wonder why the Girl Scout don’t sell $100 boxes of cookies?

[Bill Greenwood]

I agree with you guys, Im not buying a $100 ticket. We have a charity duck raffle here, really a fun thing, you buy a duck and its numbered and one day all the ducks are dumped into the river to float to the finish, then a fair type party. First prize is a brand new Jeep or other car worth about $20,000. I buy to support the kids but only a couple of $10 tickets. Had a friend win it one year, but not me.
At our convenience store, gas station, I see lots of people, almost all Hispanic buy lottery tickets, seems they are spending bout $10-20 bucks. Not much chance of winning, I guess they can hope. Once had the person in front of me win a lottery ticket, but only for $25. We had a kid in junior high school who with his family used to enter virtually every small contest in town, and they won a lot. I know one year they won 2 or 3 of them, I recall a brand new deep freezer and next year even a Chrysler. It seemed almost supernatural. No state lotteries back then.
One thing about the public lotteries now is there might be one prize of $80 million, but only one. So one person wins more than they really have any use for and all the others left out. Let's pick an amount that sets you up for life, probably $10 million buys a great house, and sends 3 kids to college, an airplane and you invest the other $5 million. So lets have 8 winning tickets for $10 million and thus help more people. You could have 80 for $1 million each, but these days that is not enough to change a whole familes life, I think $10 million is a good number.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I used to enjoy participating in the EAA airplane raffles each year - the cost was low, the odds were mighty long, but I felt it let me - a lower income mope - be a part of the greater whole of the aviation community. A 'member' of the club, so to speak. Now with a $100 cover charge to enter the club? Not so much. It sends a rather negative exclusionary message to me, actual financial end results be damned. It is not uncommon for 'Grand Prize' winners of things to end up needing to quickly sell off the wonderful thing to pay the enormous tax liability of the unbudgeted prize.

I've always been a fan of grand prizes that offered a cash alternative to the winner, eliminating the worries.

[malexander]

i used to enjoy participating in the eaa airplane raffles each year - the cost was low, the odds were mighty long, but i felt it let me - a lower income mope - be a part of greater whole of the aviation community. A 'member' of the club, so to speak. Now with a $100 cover charge to enter the club? Not so much. It sends a rather negative exclusionary message to me, actual financial end results be damned. It is not uncommon for 'grand prize' winners of things to end up needing to quickly sell off the wonderful thing to pay the enormous tax liability of the unbudgeted prize.

I've always been a fan of grand prizes that offered a cash alternative to the winner, eliminating the worries.



ditto

[krw920]

I used to enjoy participating in the EAA airplane raffles each year - the cost was low, the odds were mighty long, but I felt it let me - a lower income mope - be a part of the greater whole of the aviation community. A 'member' of the club, so to speak. Now with a $100 cover charge to enter the club? Not so much. It sends a rather negative exclusionary message to me, actual financial end results be damned. It is not uncommon for 'Grand Prize' winners of things to end up needing to quickly sell off the wonderful thing to pay the enormous tax liability of the unbudgeted prize.

I've always been a fan of grand prizes that offered a cash alternative to the winner, eliminating the worries.

Previously it was a Sweepstakes, did not cost anything to enter. If you did make any sort of payment, it was purely a donation. With a raffle, I believe it is no longer considered a donation to enter, so may or may not be tax deductible. I've heard that ticket sales are not going all that well, so it may be short lived.

[FlyingRon]

Previously it was a Sweepstakes, did not cost anything to enter. If you did make any sort of payment, it was purely a donation. With a raffle, I believe it is no longer considered a donation to enter, so may or may not be tax deductible. I've heard that ticket sales are not going all that well, so it may be short lived.

If you are required to pay something for the chance to win, it is a lottery and is ABSOLUTELY NOT tax deductible. The IRS guidance is crystal clear on this. Charity raffles/lotteries, no matter how remote the odds versus how much the tickets cost, are NOT deductible as contributions.

[Bill Greenwood]

There is a wonderful event in Denver, Morgan Adams, that raises money for children with cancer. They get bout 300 well to do people, have donated food and lots of wine and drinks and champagne, and when everyone is well lubricated they start the auction at $100k. No takers but when it gets down to $25,000 people start to bid, and if one well heeled guy bids, often his friend will match it. By the time it gets to $1k lots of bidders are in. It is amazing that in an hour they can raise $300,000 and everyone have a good time doing it. They have raised millions over the years.