Normandy

[Bill Greenwood]

I woke up in time to watch the D day celbrations on tv, no alarm clock, just woke up, and glad to see it. Cant belivee how nice he weather is there today, really a rare thing.

[rwanttaja]

My wife and I visited Normandy a few years back. Here's a PDF version of the presentation I gave at my EAA Chapter.

http://www.wanttaja.com/normandy.pdf

It was spooky to stand next to the church in Ste Mere Eglise at night, with the dummy paratrooper hanging from the steeple, while our tour guide played the scene from "The Longest Day" on a portable DVD player.

Ron Wanttaja

[martymayes]

Wow RW, I'd wish I could have seen your entire presentation but the PDF was great! My dad landed in France a few days after the initial invasion. I can only imagine.

[Mark17]

It’s such a powerful thing to see and be a part of. My Brother in law’s Dad was a Medic on Omaha Beach. I can’t even wrap my head around what that experience must of been like for him. It’s so important that we do everything we can to teach our kids about WWII and what happened so that knowledge can be used for peace. The past few summers my nephews have come along to Oshkosh with us. The second oldest gave a presentation in class this year on the Atomic Bomb and the B-29 and it’s role in ending WWII. The teacher corrected him in front of the class stating that it was a B-52 and not a B-29 that dropped the Atomic Bombs on Japan. He then showed her pictures from Oshkosh of him standing in front of Doc and Fifi and videos of them flying with the Airshow announcer describing the atomic bomb drop. She promptly apologized to him and told him to go on with his presentation. It’s so important that we educate our kids so the events of WWII never happen again. My Grandpa helped liberate Dachau Concentration Camp. He flew with B-17, B-24 and B-26 units out of England. He captured Aero Space Medical Equipment from the Nazis that was later put to use in our space program and was a major part of putting a man on the moon. He earned a Bronze Star and a French Croix De Guerre for his efforts. My oldest Nephew and I went to his grave at Fort Snelling National Cemetary Yesterday to pay our respects. Every chance I get I try to teach him about WWII. Please do everything you can as well to impact the lives of our young people so our world never has to go through these events again.

[Floatsflyer]

Many war movies on TV today including one of the worst ever flying yarns entitled Fighter Squadron from 1948. The good guys are flying P-47's and the Germans they encounter in dogfights are flying P-51's with German crosses on the fuselages. The producers and director obviously thought nobody would notice. Really awful.

[rwanttaja]

The father of a friend of mine was a glider pilot at Normandy. He had been a reporter at his local paper in civilian life, and wrote an article about his D-Day experience. I'm traveling right now, or I'd post the story.

Like most of the true heroes when they talk about their experiences, the tales they initially told included more hilarity than heroism. In his case, there was going to be an anticipated second glider assault, and they sent him and his friends back to England on about D+3.

When his ship docked, and every time the truck transporting them back to base stopped, they were initially swarmed by medical personnel, thinking they were returning wounded. All they found were a batch of dirty, disheveled, and hungry Waco jockeys. There had been no provisions to feed them on the way back....

Which leads to a discussion of the second victory in Normandy. We honor the soldiers, airmen, and sailors who risked their lives that day, and rightly so. But there was a second victory on 6 June 1944... or should I say, the culmination of a victory.

One of my favorite military aphorisms is, "Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics."

The bravery of the fighting men that day would have been for nought without the massive logistical effort that ensured they had the guns, ammo, food, and, sadly, medical care when they needed it.

Two years before D-Day, the Allies were LOSING the Battle of the Atlantic. Yet, by June 1944, there was enough to require the building of TWO TEMPORARY HARBORS to be able to pass the gear to the troops. The Germans in Normandy were armed, to some extent, with captured weapons. The Allies brought their own, more than the Germans could ever imagine.

Normandy was an incredible culmination of a victory in the art of logistics.

So, ladies and gentlemen, please charge your glasses, and drink to the men on the beaches, the men in the gliders, the men in the LCVPs (go, Coasties!), the men in the parachute harnesses, the men in the cockpits, the men in the warships and troopships, and the others who risked their lives that day so tyranny could be opposed.

Now, charge your second glass to the unsung victors of D-Day. The planners in England and Washington, the doctors and nurses, the quartermasters, the MPs guarding supply dumps, the merchant mariners, the men on the destroyers and corvettes, the Marines of the FMF and their Royal Marine equivalents, the dockworkers, the factory workers, the "Dollar a Year" men... and to all else who contributed to victory.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Many war movies on TV today including one of the worst ever flying yarns entitled Fighter Squadron from 1948. The good guys are flying P-47's and the Germans they encounter in dogfights are flying P-51's with German crosses on the fuselages. The producers and director obviously thought nobody would notice. Really awful.
I agree it's silly to anyone with an IQ above room temperature (and 90% of pilots, too :-).

But...what else COULD they use?

T-6s? Awfully recognizable, too.

Hellcats? A better choice, but try get the Navy to support a movie glorifying the Army Air Forces.

Keep in mind that Mustangs once received "recognition stripes" in the ETO because bomber gunners kept mistaking them for BF-109s!
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61mE%2Bz7Z55L._SX425_.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

I agree it's silly to anyone with an IQ above room temperature (and 90% of pilots, too :-).

But...what else COULD they use?

T-6s? Awfully recognizable, too.

Hellcats? A better choice, but try get the Navy to support a movie glorifying the Army Air Forces.

Keep in mind that Mustangs once received "recognition stripes" in the ETO because bomber gunners kept mistaking them for BF-109s!
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61mE%2Bz7Z55L._SX425_.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

They could have used real combat footage and cockpit close-ups(mock ups), models and special effects like so many other flying movies from the 40's depicting war in Europe and the Pacific. This production was pure laziness and stupidity.

The P-51's used in the movie were bubble canopy D models.

[Mark17]

Ron- you’re Normandy PDF is absolutely amazing! So interesting to see and so informative. Your trip looks like a once in lifetime experience! So cool and what an opportunity! Thanks so much for sharing this! I’ve already linked my nephews to the PDF so we can start to get some ideas for our own trip! Thank you so much for making this amazing resource available.

[champ driver]

Mark17, I was just there at Fort Snelling National Cemetery on Memorial Day weekend visiting my parents.

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[cdlwingnut]

Many war movies on TV today including one of the worst ever flying yarns entitled Fighter Squadron from 1948. The good guys are flying P-47's and the Germans they encounter in dogfights are flying P-51's with German crosses on the fuselages. The producers and director obviously thought nobody would notice. Really awful.

well I'm pretty sure not too many ME-109s were airworthy in 1948 and those that were were still in service in spain and other small nations. ever notice that "tiger" tanks in the movies of the late 50s and the 60s are usually m-47 or m-48 tanks? gotta use what you have available

[cdlwingnut]

commemorating the Normandy invasions is great and the right thing to do, but also never forget that the same time these brave men were storming the beaches more brave men were also fighting and dying in Italy, Rome Allied troops had entered Rome 2 days before, and others were in the Pacific dying in god forsaken places like Siapan.

[Mark17]

Champ Driver- that’s a beautiful shot! Looks serene and peaceful with the flag and all that green grass. Whenever we go to visit I’m always awe struck by how many graves are there and how beautiful the grounds are kept. Ya know it’s funny, my grandparents lived right by lake Nokomis growing up right under the Flight path so my Grandma was never a fan of airplanes and especially the worry they gave her from my Grandpa flying in WWII and all the boys in the family being pilots. They’re buried at the top of the hill directly overlooking the Airport. Perfect spot for my Grandpa but I don’t think my Grandma would be too happy with the location! But looks like your parents are in a beautiful spot!

[champ driver]

My parents are near the base of the hill overlooking the entrance to Signature FBO. Yes, Saturday was a beautiful morning to be there, much better than Memorial Day itself. The photo is near where they are, in the S section. My Dad was in the Navy at 17 in 1945.
I was hoping to find flags at all the headstones like a year before, but I beat them to it before they were put out.

[Mark17]

I love the flags they put in and it’s nice to bring your own too. That’s a true testament to your Dad that he would join up at 17. A true American Patriot and I salute him for his service. I know that they are in a better place now even though there are many times I miss Fishing and flying with my Grandpa and hearing his stories. They were truly the greatest generation.

[BusyLittleShop]

I agree it's silly to anyone with an IQ above room temperature (and 90% of pilots, too :-).

But...what else COULD they use? Ron Wanttaja

Ron how about Hispano Aviación HA-1112 M1L 'Buchon' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_Aviacion_Ha_1112) the Spanish version of the German Messerschmitt Bf 109 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109)???

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[rwanttaja]

Ron how about Hispano Aviación HA-1112 M1L 'Buchon' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_Aviacion_Ha_1112) the Spanish version of the German Messerschmitt Bf 109 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109)???

They weren't available in the US at the time "Fighter Squadron" was made, and, as they were at time front-line fighters for the Spanish Air Force, the Spaniards weren't likely to lend the American producers any unless they actually filmed in Spain (in which case, we'd be complaining about stupid replacements for the P-47s).

As far as I am aware, the Buchon's international movie debut was during "Der Stern von Afrika," and that was ten years later and (partially) filmed in Spain.

"Der Stern von Afrika" actually illustrates my point...many of the ground sequences use the Hispanos, but most of the flight/combat scenes are really awful models.

Ron "Horrido!" Wanttaja

[champ driver]

A lot of it has to do with the budget allowed for the movie, most of them aren't unlimited. And that dictates where and what you can use for the movie.

[Floatsflyer]

"Der Stern von Afrika" actually illustrates my point...many of the ground sequences use the Hispanos, but most of the flight/combat scenes are really awful models.

Ron "Horrido!" Wanttaja

Not familiar with this title but the combat scenes you describe are, IMO, still favourable to P-51's as German fighters.

[Floatsflyer]

A lot of it has to do with the budget allowed for the movie, most of them aren't unlimited. And that dictates where and what you can use for the movie.

My career was in the film and TV business. You're quite right, movie budgets aren't unlimited. They are the very opposite, tightly controlled, adhered to and line by line item explicit. However not all items are dollar cost items. For example, there are barter negotiations undertaken whereby certain equipment/props etc are provided to a production at no cost on a quid pro quo basis. For example, a credit is given in the end credits for a provider which can have future lucrative benefits.

[rwanttaja]

Not familiar with this title but the combat scenes you describe are, IMO, still favourable to P-51's as German fighters.

BTW, Floats, did you realize they used BF-109s (actually Spanish Buchons) as Hurricanes in "The Battle of Britain"?

They only had three flyable Hurricanes, so they painted up some of the Buchons in British markings. You can see them in the second "Vic" in this screen shot from the movie.
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/aircraft/679861d1398188018-battle-britain-film-fact-i-didnt-know-buchons.jpg?

Here's a close-up:
http://www.wanttaja.com/buchon.jpg

Seems like you should be storming about THAT.....

Ron "Repeat, Please" Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

Sorry to disappoint you, there is no "storming" here. Have far more important subjects and issues to engage with rather than spending mind-numbing hours searching for mistakes and faux pas' in aviation themed content.

[rwanttaja]

Sorry to disappoint you, there is no "storming" here. Have far more important subjects and issues to engage with rather than spending mind-numbing hours searching for mistakes and faux pas' in aviation themed content.

To quote Monty Python, "You're no fun any more...."

From the "Wichita Fokkers" of the "Wings" to this year's "Midway" (coming out this fall), I love picking out the efforts of the moviemakers to provide aerial excitement within their budgets. "Budget" is usually the key term here. I think the T-6 is probably the leader for "bad-guy stand ins," being used a Japanese aircraft during the patriotic movies during WWII and beyond, Focke Wulfs in "Where Eagles Dare", and, of course, it got its second wind when the producers of "Tora Tora Tora" decided they needed more than gray paint and Hinomaru. My favorite of the WWII era was the Ryan SC in Japanese markings.

As is probably obvious here, I'm not too critical...while finding Allied aircraft for the films is relatively easy, the Axis airplanes have never been that common. But I like seeing *real* airplanes, not models. I think CGI *can* work, but there should be an effort to emulate the traditional camera angles and physical effects to try to mimic conventional air-to-air photography. I actually thought the "Dogfights" TV series did this pretty well, with the camera "shaking" when a plane buzzed by too close.

I didn't like the CGI in "Flyboys" (and loathed much of the plot). I've read complaints from folks about "Red Tails" but I didn't find as much objectionable (and really liked its depiction of a forward fighter base). One advantage of CGI is that the particular types can be depicted accurately; no more P-51s as BF-109s, or 109s as Hurricanes. Gives one the opportunity to see some exotic types, too.

As I mentioned above, there's a new "Midway" movie coming out this fall. The original film re-used footage from "Tora Tora Tora" and war-era combat footage and was pretty underwhelming. I doubt there was more than a few ground scenes with aircraft actually shot for the movie.

I expect the new movie will probably use a lot more CGI. Its poster seems to show a sort of a hybrid....
http://www.wanttaja.com/midway.jpg
Some T-6 aspects there, but it actually has a closer resemblance to a T-28. Kind of scary, since the T-28 was tricycle gear. But this may be just an art department special. The angles do look like the plane is a taildragger.

I'll guess we'll find out in November.

Ron Wanttaja