Looking for plans-build suggestions

[Frank Forney]

Greetings and thanks for all the helpful information available on this site!

Senior-hood is descending upon me so I’m planning to 'change careers’ in one year. Licensed in 2000, about 95 hrs in C152. Last flown in 2001. Flew from Boulder Municipal (CO) and along the Colorado Front Range. Medical issue: deficient vision in one eye and 'color blindness' required extra night check ride, but ultimately the only restriction was must wear glasses. It’s a hassle I expect to be repeated annually for a ppsel. I can see red and green just fine, my only worry is spotting traffic, though am 20/20 in one eye. I have since had cataract surgery both eyes, so probably improved. There may be a strategy to getting an easier Medical, but Sport Pilot license and LSA a definite possibility!

My mission: travel around the country by short hops, without strict itinerary, not limited by schedule, two people with light baggage. (maybe then I will begin to appreciate the airlines…) Want to be able to operate from shorter airstrips, grass and gravel, fly low and slow, try to take it easy. At the elevation where I live, STOL characteristics should be a big benefit as well as a general safety feature.

I want to build a high wing taildragger for the joy of building - and at least a few years of flying before I get too old. Then sell it, knowing that the engine and a few items will have the most value - not necessarily my craftsmanship.

High wing, because I like to look out at the ground - not the wing. Hard to pitch a tent under a low wing. More suited to off-field landing if necessary.

Taildragger, because it’s more aesthetically pleasing, more aerodynamic looking. But there are disadvantages and I may live to regret it.

According to current projections, I’m not able to buy a kit. Must go the plans route and start the project with smaller expenditures which will keep me busy for quite a while. Will have far more time than money, not concerned with calculating my hourly rate. Gives me time to budget for the engine and propeller. Starting out this way gives me an easier escape route in the event that I fail as a builder.

Limited work space and skill set. But hoping to get help from local EAA chapter and from this forum. A brother is highly experienced Pitts pilot who wants to build a Vans. My best assets are patience and nimble fingers. I am accustomed to attention to detail.

The Bearhawk LSA is my first choice for the project. But I have been advised that this may not be the best choice for a first-time builder. (would there be a second time?)

My impression is that the main difficulties are:

1. Reading and understanding the plans, and formulating a set of step-by-step set of instructions.

2. The wing is complex and requires skills I have yet to acquire. Reading other builders’ stories are daunting. (But it’s such a beautiful wing!)

3. The fuselage also complex and difficult. Will have to practice welding a lot and do destructive testing until I know what I’m doing.

So what would be a better choice for first-time plans-built aircraft?

I've been looking around and there are maybe some possibilities. Many projects don’t really look any easier than the Bearhawk LSA, though you might think they would be.

Wag-Aero Sport Trainer and the Wagabond both are similar to the Bearhawk in that you can start with plans and buy factory fabricated components as needed. But still complex for the first-timer. The only part which might make it easier are wood options and fabric covered wings.

All wood construction is a possibility. Fisher Dakota Hawk or Horizon 2 are interesting in some ways.

Another possibility is the Pober Junior Ace or Pober Pixie. From the sound of it, these were designed for a novice like me. They look like fun projects with an historical appeal and could be made to be very attractive. Could almost conceivably be used for travel. But open cockpit?

If I abandon the idea of a two-place airplane, then more possibilities are out there.

The Zenith 750 looks like something only it’s mother could love and violates one of my main criteria. But probably the best alternative.

But I want to learn welding and I want a solid metal wing, a roomy cabin and a comfortable back seat for my passenger, great performance on a certified 100 hp engine. I want to land slowly yet cruise economically at 100 mph.

That’s the Bearhawk LSA or am I wrong?

Sorry to be so long-winded but I’ve been thinking about it a lot and need to start making preparations!

Frank Forney
Denver

[Sam Buchanan]

Hi Frank, and welcome to the EAA forum!

I'm going to throw a 'hold' on your building plans and suggest you regain your medical and currency before driving down too many stakes on a particular aircraft. In the course of getting back in the air you will gain a better feel for which type aircraft is best suited for you given your physical challenges. If for some reason regaining flying privileges proves more daunting than anticipated, you won't have a pile of aircraft parts staring back at you. :)

You stated "I want a solid metal wing, a roomy cabin and a comfortable back seat for my passenger, great performance on a certified 100 hp engine. I want to land slowly yet cruise economically at 100 mph." That would certainly be a nice aircraft and the Patrol would fill that role. However......I have a good friend building a Patrol and it is a very involved and labor-intensive endeavor that will probably eat up $60K or more and several years by the time it is finished. And he has already built two beautiful RVs.....

I suspect one of those ugly Zenith kits will fit your needs much better......but get back in the air first!

Best wishes whatever path you take,

[DaleB]

Frank,

Don't know what to tell you. For two people with light bags, plans built and presumably LSA, you have to be careful about additional restrictions you impose. Maybe check out the Christavia also. I have seen a Daokta Hawk, and I didn't notice anywhere to stow bags - but maybe I missed it. The Fisher planes are all wood, of course. One thing I discovered is that you may well die of old age waiting for aircraft quality spruce to be cut and delivered... and that assumes you're young when you start building.

If you want to build, then by all means build. For the type you're talking about, though, you will probably find that you can buy for far less money than it will cost you to build. Champs, Chiefs, and various others are cheap, and some (Pietenpols for example) are ridiculously cheap. You can buy a flying Aeronca Chief for less than you'll spend building, and spend the next few years flying instead of not flying. I have a build project in progress (Fisher Celebrity from plans), but in the mean time I'm flying. I'd look more toward Experimentals for a number of reasons, including the cost of maintenance and repairs.

Sam does have a point about getting current first... but for heaven's sake, do NOT apply for a medical until you've consulted with an AME and are absolutely 100% certain that you'll get it issued. If you get denied, you're done. If you simply don't apply, you can still fly LSA if you're fit to fly. Spend some time with an instructor and knock off the rust, see if it's something you still want to do. No new license needed, you're still a Private Pilot, you'd just be flying with Sport Pilot privileges. If you aren't a member of your local EAA chapter, join. Make friends, learn from them, and of course bum rides in everything you can.

Lastly... build or buy what you like, absolutely. But don't back yourself into a corner over things that you think you're going to want to do. Dreams of rugged remote gravel strips are fine, but what are the chances you'll actually do much of that? A gently used, tricycle gear low wing RV-12 will do the travel part with speed, style, and economy for less than the cost of a lot of new cars. Still good for grass strips, and the tent will fit just fine behind the wing. I was dead set on a two-holer, all wood design when I decided on the Celebrity. To be perfectly honest, in the time since I started building it... those two things have gotten far enough down my list that I really wish I'd gone with something else. If I had, I'd probably be flying a Nieuport or Fokker look-alike by now.

Tempus fugit... so fugit before tempus runs out, know what I mean? Yeah, I know that's a stretch. :)

[Frank Forney]

Many thanks for the excellent advice, Sam! You are right: I should do some flying soon! And I will get further advice regarding the medical, though the issue seems relatively minor. And I have noted occasions where even pilots with 'perfect' vision in both eyes don't see the traffic either. Doing some part-time study of theory and regulations, as well as 'Flight Maneuvers Handbook' but really expect to start from the beginning with my training.

There is already a hold on my building plans. The soonest I could start to build is 14 months. If I go the plans route, the soonest I would purchase plans to study would be 8 months. The reason is I still have a couple of jobs and home work. It will likely be several months before I can even start to get the workshop together. And then I need to get my feet wet in relevant building methods for much the same reason you suggest I go flying before all else.

I'm more interested in the Bearhawk LSA than the Patrol, which wants a bigger engine and constant speed prop.

So, still in the formulation stage. And Zenith is good, they offer full kits to plans and everything in between. Plus extensive support.

Thanks again!

[Frank Forney]

Thanks Dale!

Your tips on weight restrictions and aircraft quality spruce are appreciated.

And thanks for the heads up on the risk of being denied the medical. I will consult.

Will continue to look at costs and kit versus plans perspectives.

Just to be clear: I can fly LSA now with my Private Pilot and not need a Recreational certificate? (assuming I can find a plane and instructor)

Looking forward to building at least as much as flying. (famous last words?)

:)

[Frank Forney]

Can aircraft plans be bought and sold, traded?

The reason I ask is that it might make sense to buy plans of a couple different designs, for comparative purposes.

And then re-sell the plans of the rejected design.

Do plans come with licensing terms and restrictions on re-sale?

Not that a few hundred dollars is a bad investment in the big picture, just curious.

[DaleB]

Just to be clear: I can fly LSA now with my Private Pilot and not need a Recreational certificate? (assuming I can find a plane and instructor)
Correct.

As for your plans questions... the commercial plans that I have seen (not that there have been many) have had a license to use them for building ONE airplane. I haven't seen any restrictions on resale, but I guess it all depends on the plans. So in general if you buy a set of plans but don't use them to build, you should be OK to sell them. Sometimes I've seen plans for sale that have been used to build an airplane. Whether it would be OK to use them for another or not would depend on the plans and the agreement under which they were sold, but they'd certainly be OK to look at for evaluation.

[jim_p]

Generally plans come with an aircraft serial number. Single build only, but no transfer restrictions before or after that build that I have heard about. Certainly not the common planes. “Project” kits in any stage of progress, including plans-only for scratch builds, are for sale all the time. Plans and a wooden tail kit might be a good way to try that out, and plans with an aluminum tail, and plans with a welded/fabric tail.

I assume that builders keep the plans with the plane for maint and repairs, but if the plane was wrecked then plans should be available, and probably pretty inexpensively.

[Dana]

Ditto to Dale's point about the medical, absolutely do not apply for one until you're sure you'll pass. Flunk it and you can't even exercise Sport Pilot privileges. The medical section of the Pilots of America forum is a good place to post (you can do it anonymously) any questions or concerns you may have. But if you do get a medical, it's the last one you'll ever need to get as you can then continue to fly under the Basicmed program. There are also some changes in the works that will likely expand the definition of LSA to include larger heavier aircraft, but nobody knows what form the new rules will take so don't hold your breath.

Regarding planes and cost, once you know what you want keep your eyes open for an unfinished build. Many if not most kits aren't finished by the original builder, and half built kits often sell for less than the cost of the raw materials.

[CarlOrton]

One other thought you might check into..... I *think* (and that opens up a can of worms) that you *can* build a Zenith tail-dragger. I believe it has been done in the past. Best bet is to call the factory and ask.

And, Sam, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I felt the same way about the Zenith appearance years ago. But now I'm building one (Cruzer). The bigger tail, no slats, and wheel pants kinda smooth things out. I said kinda.

[Sam Buchanan]

One other thought you might check into..... I *think* (and that opens up a can of worms) that you *can* build a Zenith tail-dragger. I believe it has been done in the past. Best bet is to call the factory and ask.

And, Sam, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I felt the same way about the Zenith appearance years ago. But now I'm building one (Cruzer). The bigger tail, no slats, and wheel pants kinda smooth things out. I said kinda.

I could live happily with a Zenith, they are fine airplanes (and look great from the cockpit!). :)

[cluttonfred]

Frank, given your expressed preferences, medical questions, and limited building experience, I was going to suggest some of the more ultralight-style (Dacron fabric over aluminum tubes) kits, but then I saw that you wanted to keep the initial investment small and pay as you go. In addition to the options you've mentioned you might consider the Corben (not Pober) Junior Ace, a little lighter than Paul P.'s redesign, plans are still available including a trigear option. There is also historical precedent for fully enclosed Corbens as you can see from the second pic below.

7579 7580

http://www.aceaircraft.com/

You might also take a look at Leonard Milholland's designs, especially the Cabin Eagle. They are simple planes, well proven, and the Cabin Eagle is simple the latest evolution. With a few fairing strips, a J-3-style cowling, and the right color scheme it could look very classy as well. It's also designed for VW power which can be another way to save money.

7581 7582

http://www.betterhalfvw.com/cabineagle.htm His planes and plans are much better than his awful web site ;-)

[Frank Forney]

Many thanks Matthew! Just the sort of alternative I need to consider. I once dropped a vw engine out, disassembled it, sent the heads out and put on new rings. Re-assemled, it ran fine. I will continue to research alternatives. My first homebuilt will likely be my only homebuilt, so I will try to choose wisely.:)

[Martyfeehan]

I'm building a Wag Aero 2+2; first time builder. It is a big project but i like being able to spend a little at a time and do some trading and such. If you are interested in the entire process, here's my web site with everything since day one.

Marty
marty2plus2.com

[cluttonfred]

Frank, you might also want to check out these clips of the Cabin Eagle prototype.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8er2mqM_5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buq5rig5Tos

[Frank Forney]

I'm building a Wag Aero 2+2; first time builder. It is a big project but i like being able to spend a little at a time and do some trading and such. If you are interested in the entire process, here's my web site with everything since day one.

Marty
marty2plus2.com

Hi Marty, I've been looking and learning from your website for a while now! Keep up the good work and looking forward to your next update! Thanks!

[Tim Hoversten]

Frank, The Bearhawk LSA and Christavia are both great choices, and there is another design that you may want to consider - the Wittman Buttercup. www.luceair.com
It can be built to meet the LSA definition (by building it with a fixed leading edge), has a welded fuselage, and it has side-by-side seating. The wing is not all-metal, but it is a great performer on 100 hp, and ideal for grass strips.
http://luceair.com/images/slides/7.jpg

[1600vw]

http://www.murphyair.com/

http://www.murphyair.com/detail/rebel

[Frank Forney]

Thanks Tim, I can't rule out the Buttercup. However, I don't see any builder support, not a fan of the header tank, it lands faster than I want. Still, I will continue to search for information and add it to the spread sheet I'm creating.

[Frank Forney]

Thanks 1600vw. The Murphy Rebel was my number one choice when I thought I could afford a kit. Build it from subkits, almost entirely one construction method, good builder support (builder community), rugged all-round utility. I met with their builders group at Oshkosh this last summer.

But now I'm realizing that I have to build from plans and pay out gradually. It will take me far longer but on the other hand Murphy doesn't have a great reputation for delivery time or company support. I'm also seeing that 150hp or more is not required to do what I want.

Still, I have some time before making a decision and there is a possibility of changing financial picture.

[Frank Forney]

General question: all other things being equal, what are the differences between building an all metal wing and a fabric covered wing? And break that down even further into wood spar, aluminum spar, wood ribs etc.

I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not a fabric covered wing offers any advantages in terms of cost or ease of build.

[Sam Buchanan]

General question: all other things being equal, what are the differences between building an all metal wing and a fabric covered wing? And break that down even further into wood spar, aluminum spar, wood ribs etc.

I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not a fabric covered wing offers any advantages in terms of cost or ease of build.

There are so many variables when considering your question I doubt there is a consensus answer. Some wood wings are very basic, some very complex. Some metal wings have been built from plans and others you wouldn't want to tackle without a kit. Every airplane is a compromise...what you might gain in low cost with one method might be offset with more labor than a different method.

I've built several aircraft (wood, steel, fabric, plans, kits) but don't think I can answer your question. It's sorta like asking what is the difference in flying a fixed wing or a helicopter? Both require different technique but either can be mastered by the motivated flyer. :)

[cluttonfred]

Frank, I think a lot of the questions you are asking come down to personal preference more than anything else. What construction method appeals to you as a way to pass the time no matter what you are building? Choose that one. What plane fits your budget, accomplishes all or most of your ideal mission, and is easy to build? Choose that one. If you don't enjoy the building process and look forward to the goal of flying, then it will be work not fun.

[Martyfeehan]

Hi Marty, I've been looking and learning from your website for a while now! Keep up the good work and looking forward to your next update! Thanks!
Frank,
Thanks for the needed nudge ...... my web site is up to date with everything current.

Marty

[Frank Forney]

Thanks Marty, you have an incredible website (http://www.marty2plus2.com/current-post.html) and amazing project!
Wag-Aero Sportsman 2+2 PA-14 replica!
Thanks for the great photography and the detailed narrative!
Very instructive in so many ways!
Frank