Insuring Second Hand E-AB Planes

[thisadviceisworthles]

I am a student pilot looking to purchase an E-AB plane second hand as I finish my student certificate. I am considering a few different models, including some that are less common.

My major concern if I buy a less common aircraft is, what transition requirements may I face from insurers and (especially if I cannot find a CFI with time in the model) how can I meet them.

Just for clarification, I am mostly looking at Avid Flyers and Clones.

[Dana]

It varies. It will depend on the aircraft and your own experience level. When I bought my Fisher 404 and later my Starduster, both of which were single seat, they only required a verbal checkout from the previous owner, but I only had liability on them, not hull, and I had lots of tailwheel time. When I bought my Hatz, I got hull as well... at first they wanted 1 hour dual with an instructor, but when I pointed out my tailwheel and biplane time, they ammended that to 1 hour with the non CFI seller. Avids and such are pretty conventional; your tailwheel time may be a larger factor.

In some situations they may require a CFI with no time in type to get a checkout himself from the seller or another pilot with time in type. I (not a CFI) once checked a CFI in a Quicksilver because I had recent time in type and the CFI didn't; the CFI was then able to check out the buyer of the Quicksilver.

[Sam Buchanan]

I am a student pilot looking to purchase an E-AB plane second hand as I finish my student certificate. I am considering a few different models, including some that are less common.

My major concern if I buy a less common aircraft is, what transition requirements may I face from insurers and (especially if I cannot find a CFI with time in the model) how can I meet them.

Just for clarification, I am mostly looking at Avid Flyers and Clones.

You are most likely going to find insurance very expensive (if available) due to being a student pilot with no tailwheel endorsement. The less common an aircraft, the more difficult it is to find insurance. Aircraft that have been produced in small volumes or have a sketchy field history may be uninsurable in this day and age.

I have used SkySmith (https://skysmith.com/) agency for a couple of decades for insurance on experimentals. You might call them to get their input once you have narrowed down your choices of aircraft.

[CarlOrton]

I'll second Sam's recommendation to contact Sky Smith. While I don't have insurance with him (still building), I've attended several of his presentations. He's kinda like the Farmer's Insurance commercial where they've insured it all cuz they've seen it all. I'd contact him even before you narrow down your selection, as his input will probably come into play.

One thing you didn't mention (and I'm unfamiliar with them other than name recognition) is what kind of engine they have. According to Sky, that could also come into play on insurability. Anything that's widely used (name-brand VW conversion, Corvair, Continental, Lycoming, Rotax, etc are usually OK; A chevy vega conversion, ehhhhhh, I dunno....).

You'll also need to find a CFI with experience in those types, who would in turn be *willing* to fly in yours.

[thisadviceisworthles]

I am doing my pilot training in a Cessna 172 and a Champ. I'm expecting 45 hours TT with 15 TW. I would prefer hull insurance, but due to the low cost of the airframes I am considering, I would be ok with just carrying liability (ideally just temporarily while I build time).

[thisadviceisworthles]

I will have a tailwheel endorsement as part of my training.

I am looking mostly at Rotax 582s, but my ideal would be an HKS 700 or a Rotax 912.

[DaleB]

I use Gallagher for insurance. I highly recommend them, they're good and easy to work with. My coverage on a used Experimental was not terribly expensive, and when I added a second owner -- a student pilot -- my rates didn't go up at all. I was required to have 5 hours dual instruction in the make & model (RV-12).

[Sam Buchanan]

I will have a tailwheel endorsement as part of my training.

I am looking mostly at Rotax 582s, but my ideal would be an HKS 700 or a Rotax 912.

If you run into a roadblock with conventional aviation insurance, and since you are considering a light aircraft, you can get liability third-party insurance through the United States Ultralight Association:

https://www.usua.org/Insurance/

You need to join USUA then fill out the application:

http://www.firstflightinsurance.com/active/WebDoc.asp?s=375021952&P=1804057855

I consider this a choice of last resort but this may be where you find yourself depending on aircraft/powerplant.

[Frank Giger]

This is of interest to me, as when I talked to one of the prominently advertised insurance companies, they couldn't understand that I did not want hull insurance for an airplane that I could replace for 13K, passenger insurance for a one seat aircraft, or any other stuff...I just wanted liability insurance in case I hit a cow in a field on an engine out.

I tried to clarify three times what I wanted, but they just kept quoting hull insurance at me, so I gave up.

Plus they never sent the hat. ;)

[1600vw]

There is a local man in my area who flies an RV. His airplane has been in the EAA magazine. He is also a CFI and has thousands of hours flying. He wanted something for some low and slow flying so he purchased a Tbird. He contacts his insurance company to insure his new purchase. Becuase he has never had tail wheel indorsment this insurance that was quoted to him almost made him fall over. He did not want Hull insurance. He told me, I will fly her naked. I don't blame him. He said this will only be flown off the sod strip we have here and will never go anywhere. Just something to get in the air and fly.

[cwilliamrose]

I've never had a tailwheel endorsement either and my insurance quote was not affected. I simply stated on the application form that my TW experience pre-dates the endorsement requirement and I included the date that requirement came into effect. The same was true for the complex aircraft requirement.

[WLIU]

I do not recall ever being asked whether I had a tailwheel endorsement. I just list the (large) number of hours of tailwheel experience on the form. But I would guess that if the applicant reported "0" tailwheel hours, the insurance quote for an airplane that has a small population might be a high number. That said, getting a tailwheel endorsement is pretty easy.

Best of luck,

Wes

[Sam Buchanan]

Come to think of it, I don't recall being asked about a TW endorsement, either, just number of TW hours. But is a pilot (non-grandfathered) legal to fly a certificated TW aircraft as PIC without an endorsement?

[CarlOrton]

Sam, it's my understanding that if you are not grandfathered, you must obtain an endorsement. When I built my Sonex, I had to obtain one. Insurance wanted to know when it was signed, how many training hours for it, and hours since the endorsement.

[Sam Buchanan]

Come to think of it, I don't recall being asked about a TW endorsement, either, just number of TW hours. But is a pilot (non-grandfathered) legal to fly a certificated TW aircraft as PIC without an endorsement?


Sam, it's my understanding that if you are not grandfathered, you must obtain an endorsement. When I built my Sonex, I had to obtain one. Insurance wanted to know when it was signed, how many training hours for it, and hours since the endorsement.

That is my understanding as well. In respect to the original poster, we can most likely assume he must have a TW endorsement to fly any TW aircraft as PIC that requires privileges of Light Sport or Private license. I wouldn't be surprised if an insurance carrier will ask for details about the endorsement since he is a new pilot.

[flyrgreen]

Sam, some illumination on why you consider First Flight (USUA) a last resort?

[Sam Buchanan]

Sam, some illumination on why you consider First Flight (USUA) a last resort?

The First Flight policy is a third-party policy and there seems to be some question as to what the total payout would be if a huge claim was filed (lawsuit). The policy is stated as $1M but that may refer to the total payout available for the entire group of insured but I've never read any account of an actual payout. I believe my First Flight policies were underwritten by Lloyd's of London.

These types of questions don't arise when dealing with a liability policy from an aviation insurance carrier with a well-established track record in the aviation community. I purchased First Flight policies for two aircraft to satisfy airport requirements because they were the only policies available. One was an ultralight which was uninsurable by other companies, the other was an E-AB that was uninsurable conventionally during its first year of operation. After field history was established for that aircraft I was able to obtain conventional aviation liability insurance from the same carrier that insures my RV-6.

Hope this addresses your question satisfactorily.

[flyrgreen]

The First Flight policy is a third-party policy and there seems to be some question as to what the total payout would be if a huge claim was filed (lawsuit). The policy is stated as $1M but that may refer to the total payout available for the entire group of insured but I've never read any account of an actual payout. I believe my First Flight policies were underwritten by Lloyd's of London.

These types of questions don't arise when dealing with a liability policy from an aviation insurance carrier with a well-established track record in the aviation community. I purchased First Flight policies for two aircraft to satisfy airport requirements because they were the only policies available. One was an ultralight which was uninsurable by other companies, the other was an E-AB that was uninsurable conventionally during its first year of operation. After field history was established for that aircraft I was able to obtain conventional aviation liability insurance from the same carrier that insures my RV-6.

Hope this addresses your question satisfactorily.

Thanks Sam. Interesting..... And about the Lloyd's of London bit-- I noticed that wording in small print on the form and am somewhat skeptical. It just says "Lloyds" without the "of London". I'm not aware of a company of that stature that colloquializes it's name like that in print.

Like you did, I just insured an E-AB with First Flight as per airport requirements, so If the airport is satisfied.......

[Sam Buchanan]

Like you did, I just insured an E-AB with First Flight as per airport requirements, so If the airport is satisfied.......

You got it.... :)

[raytoews]

EAA insurance, liability only, $365 per yr. Just enough to keep the liayers at bay.

[Sam Buchanan]

EAA insurance, liability only, $365 per yr. Just enough to keep the liayers at bay.

Unless you want to insure an ultralight to keep the lawyers at bay.........

[flyrgreen]

EAA insurance, liability only, $365 per yr. Just enough to keep the liayers at bay.
When you say "EAA insurance" do you mean Avemco? I got a quote from them for my 700 lb (empty) 2 seat E-AB 120 kt plane at $650. This included a $1M endorsement for the airport, and was only liability.
Is there another company IN the EAA that insures? Or is your plane such that they insure it for less?

[rwanttaja]

When you say "EAA insurance" do you mean Avemco? I got a quote from them for my 700 lb (empty) 2 seat E-AB 120 kt plane at $650. This included a $1M endorsement for the airport, and was only liability.
Is there another company IN the EAA that insures? Or is your plane such that they insure it for less?

Falcon Insurance is the company that's been working with EAA. I got my Fly Baby insurance through them, $250 for liability.

Ron Wanttaja