Fisk arrival on Sunday

[rondawes]

Pardon if this has been discussed already but I don't see it.

What was going on Sunday with the Fisk arrival? It was a mid-air waiting to happen. Granted that weather on Saturday pushed a lot of arrivals to Sunday but:

1. They were sending people past Fisk at 1 mile in trail. It's always been 1/2 mile and they switched back to 1/2 mile on Monday. That cuts the arrivals in half.
2. People at the airport said that the arrival pace was slower than past years. Sure, because they were spaced at 1 mile. What happened to simultaneous landing on the numbers + a dot? Do they really think that having a hundred planes milling around of Rush and Green lakse is safer than the procedure they've used for years?
3. Several times the Fisk controllers said they were down to 1 runway? Why? There were no landing accidents.

I hope next year is better.

[tmcquinn]

I absolutely don't know. I was at a nearby airport listening to the tower and watching the live feeds. It looked to me like they were only using the hard surfaces for taxiing, which surely would have slowed things down. I did hear a controller say that they were going to start using the grass to taxi but when I went back inside, the 'live' video still showed them only using the hard surfaces.

[Kyle Boatright]

EAA management is (allegedly) pretty upset about how poorly the Saturday and Sunday arrivals went. Based on what I've seen elsewhere, I'd expect changes next year. What the changes might be... dunno.

[FURY]

It was hard surfaces only on Sunday combined with a R9 configuration and an extremely high volume. R9 is a tough configuration for ATC.

[Kyle Boatright]

It was hard surfaces only on Sunday combined with a R9 configuration and an extremely high volume. R9 is a tough configuration for ATC.

True. But 36/18 went virtually unused. For whatever reason, they were severely throttling traffic at Fisk. Well beyond what was necessary.

[MEdwards]

I believe some mass arrivals scheduled for Saturday were postponed until Sunday, closing 36 L&R to regular traffic for a while. I believe there was at least one "incident" on 36 also. On all runways, the ground was soft due to weather so they couldn't move airplanes off the runways fast enough. That, combined with all the normal Saturday traffic delayed until Sunday due to weather, resulted in the problem. I bugged out and landed elsewhere. Monday morning also was horrible for several hours because of all the people who, like me, didn't get in Sunday and got an early start Monday.

The only change I would like to see is with the mass arrivals. They come in Saturday for a reason, because the traffic is lighter than Sunday. They should not be rescheduled for Sunday.

There will always be problems due to incidents or weather. They're fairly rare. I hope they don't make radical changes to a system that has worked well for decades.

Mike E

[Kyle Boatright]

I've posted elsewhere that the mass arrivals are great. But they need to be moved to "shoulder" times, not "center cut" times. 7:00 - 9:00 AM on Sunday. Same on Monday. Maybe (not my idea) open the show on Monday with a mass arrival. But not between 10:00 AM and 6:00 PM on Saturday or Sunday. Sorry. We'll hold a slot for you, but we're not going to hold the best slots for you.

[BeagleOne]

It sounded pretty chaotic over the radio and looked pretty chaotic in person. The controllers kept saying that 18/36 was not available but I never heard them say why...how hard would it have been to tell the Fisk arrival planes that 18/36 was unavailable because of some mass and wardbird arrivals?

[vaflier]

On Monday I observed numerous pilots flying in a reckless and dangerous manner seemingly with severe cases of get there ittus. Just had to be first !!! These pilots endangered themselves and others needlesly. This is not just a problem for which EAA is responsible. Much of this is avoidable if everyone would simply follow the well laid out, very simple notam. I personally think the FAA should make examples of a few of these idiots and the next year would be a bit better. Lets place the blame where it belongs, much of it on poor pilots who either did not read the Notam or simply would not follow the rules. Some of these folks need their tickets pulled !. Yes I know this post will not make me popular but speaking the truth rarely does. If we want this problem fixed then we have to be honest as to the causes. Have my flameproof suit on, and curious as to how many others observed the same things.

[tmcquinn]

I certainly agree with a lot of the ideas expressed here. But I'm not going to count on either of the 'AA' entities to solve the issues. I will never attempt and approach just after the weather turns VMC and I will be 100% prepared to spend some time at an alternate airport.

I remember one year staying at a nearby airport until Wednesday and then flying the RIPON/FISK approach in a nearly empty sky. I must have just hit the perfect time.

[steve]

For those of us who did not fly in this year, or a reminder for those who did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9VN0WcFwZM&t=30s

[FlyingRon]

Between the hastily rescheduled mass arrivals, the absolute soupy mess that recent North 40 construction has caused on some of the grass taxiways, and a couple of disabled aircraft on the runways or main taxiways and the general large amount of IMC during the peak arrivals, this year was a real mess for arrivals. Since people arrived late, they also left late, making it harder to have spaces to back fill.

Still I think counts were up (and despite some land reclamation down south, the stupid-assed perimeter road and some additional buildings have taken many more spaces away than added)

There's a new policy at the EAA to not turn any aircraft away by the 2020 show, however, there doesn't seem to be one whit of an attempt to involve (and get to cooperate formally) between the various volunteer groups that do the work. Fortunately, the actual volunteers are a little bit more inclined to cooperate than the EAA corporate guidance so things were starting to get settled out by the middle of the show.

[Wickbuilder]

I was at the fisk "tower" on Sunday when the weather finally went VFR. What I was told is that a runway 9 arrival of both levels of traffic plus the blending in of IFR traffic does not give the controllers any spacing to deal with. So the 1/2 mile spacing has to be increased to 1 mile at fisk. If we have a runway 27 approach, the guys have more options to extend the downwind legs to accommodate everyone. Add into the mess the abortion of mass arrivals and you get the most congested and unfriendly airspace in america. I am still impressed that there were no mid air contacts. So glad we decided to go in on Thursday afternoon. I dont know what the solution is other than watch the weather and do whatever it takes to miss the high traffic times.

[Kyle Boatright]

I was at the fisk "tower" on Sunday when the weather finally went VFR. What I was told is that a runway 9 arrival of both levels of traffic plus the blending in of IFR traffic does not give the controllers any spacing to deal with. So the 1/2 mile spacing has to be increased to 1 mile at fisk. If we have a runway 27 approach, the guys have more options to extend the downwind legs to accommodate everyone. Add into the mess the abortion of mass arrivals and you get the most congested and unfriendly airspace in america. I am still impressed that there were no mid air contacts. So glad we decided to go in on Thursday afternoon. I dont know what the solution is other than watch the weather and do whatever it takes to miss the high traffic times.

What was up with 18/36?

[Wickbuilder]

Most of the time 36 was loaded with warbirds, military, show planes, as well as the mass arrivals being split up. They were sending some down fisk ave when possible. The one thing for sure is the BIG tower is in control of all arrivals. Once then land EAA is in charge. I asked about the guy that landed on 9 while 27 was the active on Saturday late afternoon. They said they are not here to police the pilots. That is a job for the FAA. I offered to get a group together to go explain the importance of the notam in detail to him. While smiling back, the pink shirt in charge said it would be best left up to EAA for a council if deemed necessary.

[Floatsflyer]

The one thing for sure is the BIG tower is in control of all arrivals. Once then land EAA is in charge. I asked about the guy that landed on 9 while 27 was the active on Saturday late afternoon. They said they are not here to police the pilots. That is a job for the FAA. I offered to get a group together to go explain the importance of the notam in detail to him. While smiling back, the pink shirt in charge said it would be best left up to EAA for a council if deemed necessary.

Whooooooooohhh there Charles Bronson. Just when I thought I'd heard every opinion and idea on this forum, along comes you with an offer to put together a vigilante group of pilots to "explain" airmanship and proper notam procedures to those less fortunate than you in the knowledge department. "They" were right, you're not at Oshkosh to police anyone as well so heed their advice and leave it up to the FAA and EAA to provide teachable moments. Oshkosh doesn't need "Death Wish 5".

[Kyle Boatright]

Whooooooooohhh there Charles Bronson. Just when I thought I'd heard every opinion and idea on this forum, along comes you with an offer to put together a vigilante group of pilots to "explain" airmanship and proper notam procedures to those less fortunate than you in the knowledge department. "They" were right, you're not at Oshkosh to police anyone as well so heed their advice and leave it up to the FAA and EAA to provide teachable moments. Oshkosh doesn't need "Death Wish 5".

To be honest, I've seen enough people do stupid things at Osh or SnF, I'd be happy to see a little remedial training or something equally appropriate for complete dummies - especially the ones who didn't bother to bring a copy of the NOTAM.

[Mayhemxpc]

To be honest, I've seen enough people do stupid things at Osh or SnF, I'd be happy to see a little remedial training or something equally appropriate for complete dummies - especially the ones who didn't bother to bring a copy of the NOTAM.
I LOVE this forum. Honestly. All kinds of opinions and thoughts...although some people seem a little touchy sometimes or take blowing of steam as some kind of threat. OH YES I would love to have a heart to heart talk with some of the people who seem to unaware of the NOTAM or act as though it doesn't apply to them That is NOT vigilanteism. It is fraternal correction. Without such correction, the pilot will continue to make mistakes, thinking that his behavior or action is appropriate. I have spoken thusly to pilots outside of OSH. That kind of correction certainly goes on among the airshow pilots in the debrief.

Believe me when I tell you that the tower can screw up, too. The north (contract) tower for runway 9/27 during the Wednesday and Friday airshows remains vividly in my mind. You can be sure that "fraternal correction" was applied then, too. The initial discussion among the pilots was not precisely "fraternal" in spirit, but I am sure that the message was conveyed in a positive manner.

It has been mentioned elsewhere, but I think it is worth repeating that if weather precludes mass arrivals on Saturday -- or maybe even outside of some time window on Saturday -- then it should NOT be rescheduled. I believe that these are on Saturday to avoid the mass arrival of everyone else on Sunday. rescheduling cannot have any other effect than what we saw on Sunday.

[Wickbuilder]

I LOVE this forum. Honestly. All kinds of opinions and thoughts...although some people seem a little touchy sometimes or take blowing of steam as some kind of threat. OH YES I would love to have a heart to heart talk with some of the people who seem to unaware of the NOTAM or act as though it doesn't apply to them That is NOT vigilanteism. It is fraternal correction. Without such correction, the pilot will continue to make mistakes, thinking that his behavior or action is appropriate. I have spoken thusly to pilots outside of OSH. That kind of correction certainly goes on among the airshow pilots in the debrief.

Believe me when I tell you that the tower can screw up, too. The north (contract) tower for runway 9/27 during the Wednesday and Friday airshows remains vividly in my mind. You can be sure that "fraternal correction" was applied then, too. The initial discussion among the pilots was not precisely "fraternal" in spirit, but I am sure that the message was conveyed in a positive manner.

It has been mentioned elsewhere, but I think it is worth repeating that if weather precludes mass arrivals on Saturday -- or maybe even outside of some time window on Saturday -- then it should NOT be rescheduled. I believe that these are on Saturday to avoid the mass arrival of everyone else on Sunday. rescheduling cannot have any other effect than what we saw on Sunday.

Thank You Chris for explaining in better detail what I was trying to convey. Landing head on into traffic is a pretty big one in my book. Are these pilots that indifferent to the rest of us or do they need some remedial training that will keep them alive longer???
It amazes me still that that many airplanes can converge upon a single place in 3 days. Shrink that to 1.5 days and all hell breaks loose. Lets hope for clear skies next year.
Kevin B

[Bill Greenwood]

If a pilot landed the wrong direction, 9 instead of 27, on Sat. why do you think they did? Were they hostile or indifferent, or maybe a new pilot or even foreign? I dont know, I wasnt there Sat, the only video I saw of arrivals was closely spaced and all landing on 9, maybe that was Sun. I was surprised how good the landings were in the gusty wind, everyone holding the nose off and landing on the mains, tailwheel or nosewheel planes alike. if the pilot did go the wrong way, which this is the only source I heard this from, then he likely just made a mistake like any other pilot can. Someone should talk to him, AFTER HE'S HAD A MOMENT TO SETTLE IN, in a friendly way, and point out the error and ask his side of it, what he was thinking or seeing or confused by. What is NOT needed is a group of thugs in a confrontational way. Who should do the talking? Probably an FAA person. How about the perfect pilot who has never made a mistake? I have landed on the wrong runway, not opposite to a lot of traffic. On the way out, I landed on 18 at Norfolk with a good size crosswind. Why? well, some clouds, then 14 is dark asphalt and blends into the grass and 18 is white concrete and I was distracted by a mower who announced he was crossing the runway. On short final I saw where I was but didnt go around and my landing was about a 7. One great thing about Osh is the friendly and cooperative feeling of all, or at least almost all the people there. Don't be in a hurry to throw that away. The best teachers, whether it is a coach, professor , or CFI are the ones that tell you the positive way to do something not emphasize an error.11

[davevath]

I watched Sunday's landings for over 2 hours while waiting for some friends to land.
What I seen was ATC landing only 1 plane at a time, all long.
btw my freinds had to divert to fon du lac. Low on fuel after waiting 2 hours.

[obmaha]

True. But 36/18 went virtually unused. For whatever reason, they were severely throttling traffic at Fisk. Well beyond what was necessary.

Fasle. There were many mass arrivals on Sunday which led to 36 being shut down.

Bob- Air traffic controller

[obmaha]

As an air traffic controller that was at Oshkosh couple things that I will say.

1. Most of you did an amazing job. But every year there is a decent amount who either don't read the notam or are not paying attention to it.

2. There is no guarantee you will make it into Oshkosh. There is a reason the NOTAM says over and over to plan to divert. When you have 4,000 plus aircraft trying to get into a place in 6 hours that is not going to happen. Simply impossible. For example the arrival rate at Ohare on a perfect day at best is 200 a/c an hour.

3. Yelling at the controllers and the other pilots over the freq. ISN'T HELPING ANYTHING. If you have circled 27 times and are getting low on fuel probably time to divert not time to yell about it.

4. I have heard a lot of pilots talk about they want change or a way to make this never happen again. Unless you can change the weather or want a lottery or VFR reservation (TRUST ME YOU DONT) system it is all on the pilots until they get to fisk.

5. Last and not least the controllers are there for your safety. They are not there to play favorites or ruin your day. They are trying to make the event as safe as possible.

[keen9]

Glad to see a controller on here. I agree with all of your points, but that does not mean ATC cannot do better (and has done better in the past). Can you answer some questions:

1) The NOTAM clearly states "ATC controllers at Fisk will advise on 120.7 when holding is necessary". Was this ever done? For the whole time I circled (mostly in the Green Lake Hold), all I heard was all traffic between Ripon and Fisk turn left, go back to Ripon".

2) Where in the NOTAM does it discuss a procedure for leaving the tracks and going to Ripon? I do not see that action, but ATC gave that direction repeatedly creating a dangerous situation by adding an additional path of traffic converging on Ripon. Once these aircraft have been given an ATC direction that is inconsistent with the NOTAM what should they have done?

3) Was the Rush Lake hold even used Sunday? Didn't hear it.

4) Why was the ATIS not updated to indicate that all aircraft should be going to the Green Lake Hold vs entering at Ripon? Sure all aircraft should be doing that via observation, but it would sure help if ATIS was encouraging the correct behavior.

[Kyle Boatright]

Fasle. There were many mass arrivals on Sunday which led to 36 being shut down.

Bob- Air traffic controller

The Cherokees arrived on Saturday. I'm not sure if any of the other groups did or not, but if they didn't, I can think of the following groups which would have arrived on Sunday:

Bonanzas
Cessnas
Cirri
Mooneys
There might have been one or two others (including the unplanned for mass arrival of AT-6's)

I'm guessing each of those took 30 minutes of runway time.

So, there was a lot of available capacity on 18/36, but that capacity wasn't used very effectively for aircraft coming in from Fisk.

[FlyingRon]

The Cirri were always scheduled for Sunday. The others were on Saturday and it was pretty severe IFR early. A bunch of them arrived late. I think the Bo's started to arrive gave up and then came back again.

[Low Pass]

.....

So, there was a lot of available capacity on 18/36, but that capacity wasn't used very effectively for aircraft coming in from Fisk.It was very obvious from the 2-3 hours I sat alongside 18/36 Sunday that there long pauses of use of the runway. Much less utilized than in previous years. I went to sit there so I could watch landings, not see nothing for 10-20 minutes at a time, then 20-30 planes arrive very widely and inconsistently spaced. As a few of my buddies actually got into the airport and related the stories of the insanity on the Fisk arrival, it really seemed bizarre to see 18/36 L & R so underutilized.

[PeterEAA]

Hi folks ! I was trying to get in on Sunday for over 2 hours and 45 minutes ! Finally I gave up and diverted to KATW Appleton. What I saw were airplanes not !!! flying 90 knots, not !!! flying at the right altitude of 1800 feet ( they passed us below and above simultaneously ), flying not !!! over the railroadtracks and suddenly slowing down to 60 knots, lowering their flaps !! I saw airplanes flying side by side, above each other heading to fisk, cutting in the spacing of other airplanes from below and above ... and ... and ... It was really dangerous some times and the Controllers did an excellent job, but how to handle this chaotic arrivals dear pilots ????!!!! Everybody who flew this way has to ask himself if this is the way to handle the fisk arrival ................ ?? Shame on you !!!!!!! I talked to a tower controller because of sunday arrivals, he told me that they are going to rethink their procedures ! Can you imagine what does that mean ?! If we go on in this rude way flying into KOSH they probably will restrict the arrivals in some way ! That is the last thing the majority of all pilots want to see......... So please !!!! first follow the procedures and then talk about other factors ! This makes it save for everyone. Peter Burmeister - GERMANY - 10th time OSHKOSH participant

[mc20]

The issue Sunday was not that pilots did not follow the NOTAM. That was a symptom of the real problem.

There were too many airplanes trying to arrive in the same airspace.

It wasn’t possible for every pilot to follow the NOTAM as there simply wasn’t enough room in the sky. Even if planes had been kept far, far away and arrived at a pace at which the NOTAM could have been flown exactly, it's still likely it would have taken you three hours to fly from Appleton. (I fully recognize that an embarrassingly large number of pilots wouldn’t follow the NOTAM no matter the conditions- that's beyond frustrating to me. The guy who landed 36 Sunday afternoon while two streams of departures were leaving on 18 makes me want to go postal.)

At least you made it in after 3 hours. This guy flew over five hours after departing from Appleton, then returned, and flew another hour before finally arriving.

7430

[PeterEAA]

The issue Sunday was not that pilots did not follow the NOTAM. That was a symptom of the real problem. There were too many airplanes trying to arrive in the same airspace. It wasn’t possible for every pilot to follow the NOTAM as there simply wasn’t enough room in the sky. Even if planes had been kept far, far away and arrived at a pace at which the NOTAM could have been flown exactly, it's still likely it would have taken you three hours to fly from Appleton. (I fully recognize that an embarrassingly large number of pilots wouldn’t follow the NOTAM no matter the conditions- that's beyond frustrating to me. The guy who landed 36 Sunday afternoon while two streams of departures were leaving on 18 makes me want to go postal.) At least you made it in after 3 hours. This guy flew over five hours after departing from Appleton, then returned, and flew another hour before finally arriving. 7430 You are absolutly right, the real problem was that there had been too much airplanes ! But what I really wanted to address - even too much airplanes does not justify not following the NOTAM ! I always tried to get in following the NOTAM ( 90 Knots, 1800 feet etc. ) and now one !!! was forced to fly low level or above lined up airplanes to the fisk arrival or cutting in spacings other airplanes - its quite easy - have enought fuel - and if it does not work following the NOTAM break out and try it again - its so easy !!! Everything else is really dangerous ! and the real thing is - if you feel there are so much airplanes - divert to another airport ! Peter

[PeterEAA]

And no, I didnt make it on sunday ! I realized that my fuel status after 2:45 required a divertion to KATW Appleton ! Peter

[MEdwards]

The issue Sunday was not that pilots did not follow the NOTAM. That was a symptom of the real problem. There were too many airplanes trying to arrive in the same airspace.True, but THAT was a symptom of yet another problem. Simply a weather problem. Bad weather Friday and Saturday pushed many hundreds of arrivals into Sunday, which is really busy anyway. And the Saturday rains softened the ground so they could not get airplanes off the runways fast enough. People who couldn't get in Sunday came back Monday morning causing unreasonable congestion on the arrival for a few hours then too.

But it wasn't a failure of planning or of the arrival procedure or the controllers or even the vast majority of the arriving pilots. It was just a weather problem.

Pilots deal with weather problems all the time, including bugging out for alternates, which is what I did.

Weather problems to this extent don't happen very often at Oshkosh. The fact that they did this year is no reason to panic and go changing the arrival procedures that thousands of pilots are familiar with and that have mostly worked well for decades.

So please pilots read and fly the NOTAM. But please EAA and FAA don't go making big changes to the Oshkosh arrival just because of some bad weather this year.

[Bill Greenwood]

I sure agree with you, dont make a drastic change to procedures in response to a weather problem that is not likely to be done any better. Here's is what I did. I thought about flying up on Sat as I have done a few times before, but I checked the weather, didnt just head out and hope, and it was not good at all, imc along the route and at Osh. Sun morning was better but still imc at Osh so I knew I might have arrival problems in the afternoon. I could have stayed overnight along the way if needed, but it was improving as I stopped in Norfolk and then Decorah. Leaving Decorah as I got near Ripon ar 4pm I listened to arrival and heard the controller tell everyone to turn left and hold. I didnt see any point in trying to hold with a lot of other planes so I diverted to an outlying airport and got a ride to Osh in time to make a 6pm party. Now I had one advantage, I wasnt dependant on camping with my plane at Osh as so many people are.

[FlyingRon]

When the field closes the FISK arrival is always messed up. Best to go park it somewhere and listen for airport to open and then leisurely make your way back to RIPON and hope the crazies have gotten out of the lake holds. They have historically NEVER worked.

I suggest Brennand (79C). Great place to kill an hour. Went up their to take a shower a few years back and got stuck there because someone crashed on 27 .

[DRGT]

I was 2 miles from Ripon on Saturday evening when they closed the Fisk arrival. I decided to divert to Fond Du Lac. When I contacted the tower I was told they had just started the Bonanza mass departures and that it would take about 20 minutes before they would take any arrivals. I told the tower I would hold and simply pulled the throttle back and went into a slow 20 minute hold south of the airport. A twin Cessna did the same and we had no problem staying clear of each other. The twin was cleared to land first and then me.

I asked the controller if he knew of ground transportation to OSH and he came back and said there was none available. But then while on short final, he asked me if I really wanted to go to OSH. I replied affirmative and he replied the tower at OSH had cleared me straight in for 36. It was about 7:30 ish so I pushed the throttle to the firewall. I was cleared to land on the yellow dot so I thought someone was behind me (tho I did not hear anyone). I still had the throttle to the firewall crossing the numbers. As I was approaching the yellow dot at about 50ft AGL, I saw the flashing red/blue lights come on over on 9/27. Right after my mains touched down, the controller announced the airport was closed for anymore arrivals. I believe I was the last one in on Saturday.

My take aways on why it worked out for me:
1) I had preordered the NOTAM booklet and was prepared for several options
2) I had plenty of fuel and had planned many what-ifs
3) My persistence, patience and courtesy was noted by ATC and they did everything they could to help me
4) The twin Cessna pilot and I cooperated to make it work for both of us

[mc20]

I'm pretty sure I heard you and saw you land. I thought it odd that ATC said something about being from Ripon. I wondered why you weren't doing Fisk. Now I know!