PDA

View Full Version : Eternal debates in aviation...



Frank Giger
11-20-2011, 05:49 AM
One of the fun things about being in aviation is the endless, pointless "this versus that" debates that take up a lot of time without any resolution.

My favorites:

Champ versus Cub. "If I wanted to drive from the backseat I'd be my wife," was the best line I ever heard during one of these. And yes, I concur.

Trikes versus Tailwheels. "Real pilots fly taildraggers" sounds really impressive until one understands it's being told to a DC-10 pilot that has a zillion zillion hours. I don't actually take sides in this too much, though I've only ever ground looped a tricycle geared aircraft (long story).

Certified versus Uncertified engines. Hooboy, always a good'un, as it crosses the Production vs. Homebuilt divide. Both sides have great points and a fistfull of statistics behind them to support their views along with loads of stories. The subsets are the two stroke versus four and the auto-conversion versus decertified engine debates.

Invariably the words "cheap," "dinosaur," "reckless," and "obsolete" are going to be used. Bonus points if the Wright Brothers, Curtiss, or Rutan are referenced.

What others have I missed?

Janet Davidson
11-20-2011, 06:37 AM
Low wing vs. high wing?

Does Marvel Mystery Oil have any effect or not?

Lean of peak, or not?

Wheel land or 3-point?

Joe LaMantia
11-20-2011, 08:12 AM
Fun Topic!
Here's a few more, Who needs Flaps?, learn to Slip! When to apply flaps, in segments or all on final? Piper vs Cessna? Training should include spins, or not? All this stuff reminds me of my days driving an 18 wheeler, the drivers argue endlessly on truck brands and colors "Pete vs Kenny" when over half are "Frieghtshakers". Here's a couple more on aviation that just came to mind; Glass panels vs Steam gauges and plastic is only for model airplanes!

Joe
:cool:

rosiejerryrosie
11-20-2011, 08:30 AM
We all know that only kids ride tricycles....

Floatsflyer
11-20-2011, 11:06 AM
.......And Seaplane pilots have more skill and more fun than landlocked drivers-tricycle or taildragger. Really...just ask us. You try takeoffs and landings on a runway that's constantly moving!

Anymouse
11-20-2011, 02:08 PM
High wing vs low wing
Treadmills
Slipping with flaps
Extending your range with a multi by shutting down an engine
Anything to do with headsets

Hal Bryan
11-20-2011, 02:40 PM
Great idea for a thread, Frank, and some great responses so far!

Don't be surprised if we steal some of those for the weekly "Nose to Nose" poll in e-Hotline. ;)

David Darnell
11-20-2011, 05:01 PM
"Whose the greatest pilot you ever saw?"

Frank Giger
11-21-2011, 12:43 AM
.......And Seaplane pilots have more skill and more fun than landlocked drivers-tricycle or taildragger. Really...just ask us. You try takeoffs and landings on a runway that's constantly moving!

All the dangers of boating combined with the adventure of flying.

Some might say that's just asking for trouble.

Anymouse
11-21-2011, 04:06 AM
"Whose the greatest pilot you ever saw?"

<---------- You're looking at him!!


:D

Floatsflyer
11-21-2011, 11:33 AM
All the dangers of boating combined with the adventure of flying.

Some might say that's just asking for trouble.


Actually Frank, us water flyers say we're just asking(and receiving) for one of the highest levels of pure fun and adventure available in aviation. Seaplane flying is not inherently dangerous but is intolerant of neglect, carelessness, bad judgement and diminished skills.

steveinindy
11-21-2011, 04:18 PM
The ethanol in fuel debacle anyone?

Mogas vs avgas vs Jet-A?

Homebuilders vs. "spam can" drivers?

Boring holes in the sky vs point A to B flying?

Bug smashing vs high altitude GA?

Pulse oximeters in the cockpit

Those are the ones I can think of at the moment.

Frank Giger
11-22-2011, 11:13 PM
Here's one we kicked around the other day:

Are restorers the same as homebuilders? (No, says I; restoring looks like more work, as you're repairing somebody else's fixes).

Floats, I ain't never seen a fat drunk guy holding up a beer shouting Woohoo! with his buddies while driving at 45 miles on an airstrip in a bass boat.

Unless one considers a river an airstrip, that is!

;)

kk6mm
11-23-2011, 12:13 AM
re: Low wing vs. high wing. Personally, I prefer low wing, but a very experienced pilot I know recently noted that he's never seen a low wing bird...
A little fodder for the high wing folks.

steveinindy
11-23-2011, 12:28 AM
High wings reportedly have a tendency to rollover more in crashes and I don't like having the fuel above my head even if the thing doesn't turn turtle. That's my only "argument" against a high wing configuration. Otherwise, I prefer them because of the better visibility towards the ground.

Floatsflyer
11-23-2011, 11:32 AM
Here's one we kicked around the other day:

Are restorers the same as homebuilders? (No, says I; restoring looks like more work, as you're repairing somebody else's fixes).

Floats, I ain't never seen a fat drunk guy holding up a beer shouting Woohoo! with his buddies while driving at 45 miles on an airstrip in a bass boat.

Unless one considers a river an airstrip, that is!

;)

Floats.....uhhh.....that's a good thing, right??!?

Anymouse
11-23-2011, 02:58 PM
Forgot one...

Sport Aviation content.

Dana
11-23-2011, 04:52 PM
Nobody's mentioned the dreaded downwind turn? Or the "fly flying in the cockpit of a plane in flight"? Or Newton vs. Bernoulli? All of which really shouldn't be debated because the science is clear, but that never stopped anybody...

Mike M
11-24-2011, 06:30 AM
<---------- You're looking at him!!:D

YEP, I'M LOOKING AT HIM IN THE MIRROR.

"You may have a lot more experience than I, but when I have your experience, I'll be a lot better pilot than you are." Student of mine told me that once. Smart kid. Methinks aviators are like gunfighters in a way. If y'don't think you're the best in the business, y'ought to consider changing careers.

BenjaminB
11-25-2011, 06:13 PM
What about the one of the cargo plane full of pigeons that suddenly take flight? or the pitch or power to control airspeed? Anyone who thinks pitch controls airspeed needs to fly gliders. Oh, and flying tail wheel airplanes is not what makes you a real pilot, but flying gliders is.;)

Ryan Hornback
11-25-2011, 07:07 PM
So I am not sure if yall are talking about just GA, but in my short time being with aviation, a big one I have came across is Boeing or Airbus? I have heard things such as "If its not Boeing, I am not going." ;)

steveinindy
11-25-2011, 08:50 PM
I have heard things such as "If its not Boeing, I am not going."
Honestly, I'm going to give the 787 a couple of years in service before I set foot on one that's leaving the ground. I love both Boeing and Airbus but I want to see if the durability that Boeing is predicting for that extensive of composite use in a commercial fleet actually pans out. Not to mention I think the 787 is just kind of a vaguely unattractive aircraft.

KDoersom
11-25-2011, 09:49 PM
Here is the answer to the flying birds

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode77

Matt Gonitzke
11-25-2011, 09:54 PM
or the pitch or power to control airspeed? Anyone who thinks pitch controls airspeed needs to fly gliders.

Ok, enlighten me...that contradicts my PPL SEL ground school, 3 CFIIs and their instruction, as well as the half-dozen CFI-Gs I've flown with, as well as my flight experience in both powered aircraft and gliders. You can pitch the Schweizer in your avatar up and hold it in a nose-high attitude, stalled, and you'll still descend, or you can pitch down, watch the airspeed indicator jump, and descend. Or trim a Cessna for 70 kts, and notice that you can climb, fly straight and level, or descend, depending on how much power you are applying.

Joe LaMantia
11-26-2011, 10:46 AM
Matt,
I'm in agreement regarding powered aircraft which is all I've ever flown in, but I think things are a bit different in the glider. Airspeed in a powered aircraft is the combination of thrust and relative wind, but all the glider has is relative wind and his throttle is looking for thermals that can't be turned on and off, same for downdrafts. All they've got is spoilers and hopefully the ability to move out of the thrust drivers they fly through. I'm guessing that you could get some airspeed increase with a climb pitch in a big updraft. Maybe Ben will tell us his secret!

Joe
:cool:

Matt Gonitzke
11-26-2011, 11:17 AM
Joe,

It is no different in a glider, as a glider is just an engineless aircraft. For all the glider knows, it is descending through the air as it moves forward. If the air happens to be rising faster than the glider is descending, then it gains altitude relative to the ground. If I'm flying along in a glider and encounter a good thermal, I'll pitch for the mimimum-sink airspeed (I guess that's what you mean by 'climb pitch'?) of the glider to get the most benefit out of the thermal. If I am landing a glider, I will pitch for my approach airspeed and use the spoilers to maintain my glide path towards my aiming point. Pitch is still used to control airspeed. You can guess with reasonable accuracy your airspeed based on your pitch attitude; I was taught this very early on by my instructor when I started flight training, and it has been reinforced by each instructor I've flown with since.

Joe LaMantia
11-26-2011, 01:27 PM
Thanks Matt!
Not having ever flown one, I'm trying to figure out what creates thrust once your off the tow. Sound like it just trading altitude for airspeed and vise-versa like pulling power back to idle and "gliding", gravity is providing the thrust. I guess the biggest difference is the design advantage of the glider with light weight and a big aspect ratio vs a nose heavy engine out "powered" aircraft.

Joe
:cool:

BenjaminB
11-26-2011, 05:40 PM
Matt,
I'm in agreement regarding powered aircraft which is all I've ever flown in, but I think things are a bit different in the glider. Airspeed in a powered aircraft is the combination of thrust and relative wind, but all the glider has is relative wind and his throttle is looking for thermals that can't be turned on and off, same for downdrafts. All they've got is spoilers and hopefully the ability to move out of the thrust drivers they fly through. I'm guessing that you could get some airspeed increase with a climb pitch in a big updraft. Maybe Ben will tell us his secret!

Joe
:cool:
You see, in the gliders, we do have a sort of throttle in the spoilers. Spoilers closed-full throttle, spoilers full open-no throttle. It really is not much different than a powered airplane, you just can't climb at "full throttle," only decrease the descent rate. When flying gliders you learn really fast that the spoilers are a REALLY BAD way to control airspeed on final. I tried that while in primary instruction, and it didn't work very well. And as far as gaining airspeed in a thermal. Yes we do naturally, but we actually try to slow down when we fly into one.

Matt Gonitzke
11-26-2011, 06:46 PM
You see, in the gliders, we do have a sort of throttle in the spoilers. Spoilers closed-full throttle, spoilers full open-no throttle. It really is not much different than a powered airplane, you just can't climb at "full throttle," only decrease the descent rate. When flying gliders you learn really fast that the spoilers are a REALLY BAD way to control airspeed on final. I tried that while in primary instruction, and it didn't work very well. And as far as gaining airspeed in a thermal. Yes we do naturally, but we actually try to slow down when we fly into one.

That's EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make. Pitch controls airspeed...

Dana
11-26-2011, 09:55 PM
That's EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make. Pitch controls airspeed...

Well, to be strictly correct, it's angle of attack that controls airspeed...

Matt Gonitzke
11-26-2011, 10:00 PM
Well, to be strictly correct, it's angle of attack that controls airspeed...

Which you control with the elevator ;)

Anymouse
11-27-2011, 03:56 AM
Tipping at the airport.

Jim Clark
11-27-2011, 04:15 PM
Low Wing or High Wing? Why even ask. It takes BOTH to make a real airplane.

BenjaminB
11-28-2011, 11:09 AM
That's EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make. Pitch controls airspeed...

Sorry, I meant to say that if you think that power controls airspeed you need to fly gliders. That was just a typo.:((if there were a blushing smiley that would be right here)

Joe LaMantia
11-29-2011, 08:41 AM
Ben,
A "blushing smiley" would be a great addition, if you post often enough you will need one once in awhile...posting from experience!

Joe
;)

AndyNZ
12-11-2011, 03:03 AM
Nanchang VS Yak 52 :D

Mychael
01-29-2012, 01:12 AM
The only debate I don't think was mentioned here was mogas v avgas. VW power V Rotax V old lyc/cont.
As to the others. Champ V Cub.. No contest as Luscombe beats them both.
Four wings are always cooler then just a high wing or low wing, but where do Canards fit in hmmm?
You take off and land in a taildragger, the rest is just flying.

I must fly the wrong types of gliders as some of the ones I've flown feel like barges after some of the homebuilts I've been in but to show I'm not biased what's a propellor for? Answer, to keep the pilot cool, watch him sweat when it stops turning.

Joe LaMantia
02-01-2012, 02:26 PM
Just to keep this ball rolling....What killed GA? There is whole thread on the Hanger Talk listing, lots of good discussion there!

Joe
:cool:

Green Goggles
02-01-2012, 06:18 PM
Is the Bonanza the V-Tailed doctor killer?
Or, is the Mooney the doctor killer?

I say Bonanza! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/leaving.gif

DRGT
02-02-2012, 08:23 AM
E6b - with/without batteries?

R. Novak
03-06-2012, 12:27 PM
Low wing vs. high wing?

Does Marvel Mystery Oil have any effect or not?

Lean of peak, or not?

Wheel land or 3-point?

Janet! I can help with the MMO question - actually did some testing on it a few years ago. "Without data it's just another opinion". See you later.

Kiwi ZK-CKE
05-31-2012, 04:55 AM
Mentioned earlier - the Taildragger Wheeler vs 3 Pointer debate. I was having some issues getting my wheeler landings to stick when getting checked out in my new homebuilt. Whenever I mentioned that to anyone I just knew that I would get a major Thesis on either a. why I should just ignore doing wheelers or b. why real taildragger pilots only ever use wheelers - didnt seem to be any middle ground! how to really confuse a newbie taildragger pilot!

rosiejerryrosie
05-31-2012, 06:10 AM
I was having some issues getting my wheeler landings to stick when getting checked out in my new homebuilt.

I noted the "was". Assume you have the problem licked?

mcmurphy
05-31-2012, 06:23 AM
Controlled versus uncontrolled airports. I am amazed at the number of pilots who fly out of controlled fields that consider uncontrolled fields as dangerous.

Kiwi ZK-CKE
05-31-2012, 11:52 PM
I noted the "was". Assume you have the problem licked?

concentration and lots of practice.... It comes right eventually!

WingsAloft
06-03-2012, 06:12 AM
What about the guy who navigates with just his GPS vs. the radio navigation stickler? And throw into the mix-- Dead Reckoners!

WingsAloft
06-03-2012, 06:30 AM
...or how about iPods vs. paper in the cockpit? (and btw, there really is still debate on that, at least as long as I'm here!)

Joe LaMantia
06-03-2012, 07:15 AM
The "Controlled" vs "Uncontrolled" is an interesting topic, I trained at a controlled airport but have been flying out of uncontrolled airports for the past 11 years. I don't think uncontrolled are more dangerous, given the dead economy there is very little traffic around the small airports these days, but that can breed complacency in the pattern. My only near "miss" in the traffic pattern was flying into a controlled airport where a Bonanza took-off without clearance from a crossing runway and climbed over me on my downwind! The guy in the tower read the riot act at the Bonanza and I got a very soft spoken clearance to land. I fly in controlled airspace often enough to stay current in both procedures and communication which are areas that can get "rusty" without use. In the end, you can get killed in any airspace, if your VFR KEEP LOOKING!

Joe
:cool:

steveinindy
06-03-2012, 07:40 AM
I am amazed at the number of pilots who fly out of controlled fields that consider uncontrolled fields as dangerous.

Neither of them are entirely safe obviously. With pilots playing by the rules, neither should really be any less safe than the other when all other things are equal. That said, when flying in instrument conditions, I will give preference to controlled airports because it's not uncommon to pop out of the clouds on approach to uncontrolled fields when it's VMC or marginal VMC below and find someone who is flying no radio (or just plain not paying attention) bopping along in the pattern.


My only near "miss" in the traffic pattern was flying into a controlled airport where a Bonanza took-off without clearance from a crossing runway and climbed over me on my downwind! The guy in the tower read the riot act at the Bonanza and I got a very soft spoken clearance to land. I fly in controlled airspace often enough to stay current in both procedures and communication which are areas that can get "rusty" without use.


Glad to hear that ended well. My only good controlled airport story consists of the IND tower controller who gave a Cargolux 747 crew clearance to takeoff while we were on rollout on the parallel runway with the caveat "caution wake turbulence from the traffic on the parallel". We were in a Cessna 172. LOL


In the end, you can get killed in any airspace, if your VFR KEEP LOOKING!

Amen to that. Truer words have seldom been spoken, although I'd argue that you should keep your eyeballs peeled when IFR as well.

steveinindy
06-03-2012, 07:42 AM
...or how about iPods vs. paper in the cockpit? (and btw, there really is still debate on that, at least as long as I'm here!)

I prefer the answer of "both". We aren't talking about lugging around the entire Jepp chart set when it comes to light aircraft so weight shouldn't be a factor and redundancy is always a great thing to have in an aircraft.

WingsAloft
06-04-2012, 06:44 AM
I prefer the answer of "both". We aren't talking about lugging around the entire Jepp chart set when it comes to light aircraft so weight shouldn't be a factor and redundancy is always a great thing to have in an aircraft.

You're right, and I've never known a pilot who just used iPods. I guess I meant paper vs. iPods meaning which you prefer on your knee---what you use/navigate with. And that's what the debate really is about when I hear these two groups face off. I've yet to hear the paper proponents say, No iPods on board! ...or an iPod junkie state emphatically, I want nooooo paper in the cockpit! They both tend to carry both, for many obvious reasons. But they are adamant about their preference for the use of one or the other. So you're right, and I guess I should have been more specific.

steveinindy
06-04-2012, 07:47 AM
But they are adamant about their preference for the use of one or the other.

Yeah, I personally prefer the electronic version myself but don't know if I would want it in an iPad specifically.


So you're right, and I guess I should have been more specific.

No worries. General statements are just good ways to start a conversation and often to strike up new friendships.

WingsAloft
06-05-2012, 06:21 AM
Yeah, I personally prefer the electronic version myself but don't know if I would want it in an iPad specifically.No worries. There's another one: Which electronic device is best for the job!

WingsAloft
06-05-2012, 07:02 AM
No worries. General statements are just good ways to start a conversation and often to strike up new friendships.I used to frequent a certain atheist/agnostic forum, and many times I would wonder why they wouldn't adopt a sane approach to disaggreement. Here, among aviators, among EAA members, say something divergent and what do I get? DISCUSSION. Refutation. And all done in a sane, persuasive, and professional manner. This is such a contrast to all the political/religion forums I was involved in for the last decade, where general statements are a great way to start name-calling brawls and strike up new enemies! Maybe I'm making too much out of the aviators' levelheaded approach to debate, after all, It was just last year that I switched my hobbies from battling atheists/deists/liberals/conservatives to becoming a pilot. That's quite a change of environment.

rosiejerryrosie
06-05-2012, 08:47 AM
It was just last year that I switched my hobbies from battling atheists/deists/liberals/conservatives to becoming a pilot. That's quite a change of environment.

You'll find the air much clearer up here...:)

steveinindy
06-05-2012, 08:58 AM
There's another one: Which electronic device is best for the job!

Personally, I prefer to have something mounted in the panel (as in an MFD) so I can't drop it when I need it most. However, that's just me.


Here, among aviators, among EAA members, say something divergent and what do I get? DISCUSSION. Refutation. And all done in a sane, persuasive, and professional manner. This is such a contrast to all the political/religion forums I was involved in for the last decade, where general statements are a great way to start name-calling brawls and strike up new enemies! Maybe I'm making too much out of the aviators' levelheaded approach to debate

We'll carry that conversation by PM, OK? LOL


You'll find the air much clearer up here...

Most of the time. There are some topics where people get very reminiscent of the other forums WingsAloft mentioned. I guess it just matters where you define as "here" for a particular topic.

WingsAloft
06-05-2012, 09:56 AM
You'll find the air much clearer up here...:)I don't intend to get sentimental, but......I'll never forget my first ride in a GA airplane last month (at chapter 1442 fly-in/YE event at W78). Sweltering Virginia heat on a tarmac. Met a flight instuctor who remembered my name (last year I popped by KDAN to interview him). His instrument student was there and they offered me a ride in a Piper Arrow! The flight was over an hour long, with exciting things like stalls and a full-stop landing 30 nm away! But most of all I'll never forget opening the above head airvents--so cool and fresh! GA is fun even from the back seat! I can't wait to fly!

WingsAloft
06-05-2012, 10:10 AM
...Most of the time. There are some topics where people get very reminiscent of the other forums WingsAloft mentioned...Actually I've just now begun to realize that. I've just read the thread entitled "parking problems" in the Oshkosh section, where some were fighting like cats and dogs, and acting like children, calling names. But on the whole, at EAA forums, if a I offer a minority view, I don't get eaten by piranhas. That is a huge difference.

steveinindy
06-05-2012, 10:49 AM
But on the whole, at EAA forums, if a I offer a minority view, I don't get eaten by piranhas. That is a huge difference

Very true. We all have our moments where certain things get on our nerves, but as a general rule, people seem to remember that we're all pilots and are therefore family. We may not see eye to eye 100% of the time but we generally do have each other's backs when it comes to it.

WingsAloft
06-05-2012, 11:55 AM
Very true. We all have our moments where certain things get on our nerves, but as a general rule, people seem to remember that we're all pilots and are therefore family. We may not see eye to eye 100% of the time but we generally do have each other's backs when it comes to it. Couldn't have said it better. I was elated the day I found this out.

steveinindy
06-06-2012, 09:03 AM
Couldn't have said it better. I was elated the day I found this out.

Pilots are the only group where I've literally had an argument with someone then turned around and had that same person less than an hour later offer to go 100 miles out of their way to get me home after my intended ride flaked on me.

rosiejerryrosie
06-06-2012, 10:13 AM
Couldn't have said it better. I was elated the day I found this out.

Real life case in point. Two years ago my mechanic was helping me push another airplane back into the community hangar, and, being unfamiliar with the narrow door opening, we put a major ding in the wingtip before I could yell "stop". Repair cost me $2000.00 and the owner was, understandably, a bit 'cool' in his relationship to me. A couple of weeks ago, I had a brake lock up on landing and he was right there to help push my airplane back to the hangar. While we could not be called 'best friends', he was right there when I neded help. That's aviation, WingsAloft, and welcome to the community.

WingsAloft
06-07-2012, 06:16 AM
Real life case in point. Two years ago my mechanic was helping me push another airplane back into the community hangar, and, being unfamiliar with the narrow door opening, we put a major ding in the wingtip before I could yell "stop". Repair cost me $2000.00 and the owner was, understandably, a bit 'cool' in his relationship to me. A couple of weeks ago, I had a brake lock up on landing and he was right there to help push my airplane back to the hangar. While we could not be called 'best friends', he was right there when I neded help. He didn't try to ding back yours? ("OOPS, Jerry! Did I just wreck your wingtip? Looks like you can't make it to the bbq tomorrow! Sorry, my bad!")
That's aviation, WingsAloft, and welcome to the community.Thankyou, I appreciate that.

WingsAloft
06-07-2012, 06:42 AM
Pilots are the only group where I've literally had an argument with someone then turned around and had that same person less than an hour later offer to go 100 miles out of their way to get me home after my intended ride flaked on me. The last heated discussion I had on the About.com atheism/agnosticism forum slaughterhouse was with someone who happened to be a pilot. When I found this out, I asked him questions about obtaining an IR rating, we totally forgot whatever we were wrangling over, and we were suddenly friendly and cordial; a total 180. I guess the platitudes about the passion of aviation transending differences, has some truth to it.

Dana
06-12-2012, 10:48 AM
You'll also see competition pilots loaning their airplane to a competitor (who might well beat them) whose plane may be damaged or otherwise down.