Learning to fly, is this a recipe for disaster?

[thisadviceisworthles]

I've wanted to be a pilot since I was 7, but as a kid it was always one of those things that everyone told me was not realistic (maybe that's why I've wanted it so bad).

Now I'm 30, and I'm still not a pilot, and that fact is pissing me off.

The fact is, at my income and with my student loans money is tight, and the potential costs of flying lessons concerns me, but I have been reading about ideas to cut costs and I think I have a plan, but I am worried that I am underestimating risk and overlooking better options.

I just accepted a job that comes with a significant raise and once I sell my house I intend to budget $750/month for flying. After flight training, I want to buy an airplane to fly at least once, ideally more, every week. For reference this is near the Metro Atlanta,GA area.

This is my rough plan:

1) Start Flight training, train with my instructor on rented equipment until I begin to solo.

2) Start Solo time, rent an aircraft to maintain training pace, and look for a plane for purchase

3) With a small down payment, finance a plane in the $15k-20K range

4) Work with instructor to learn my plane

5) Finish solo training in my plane, knowing that if it takes an extra 10, 20 or 30 hours to prep my for my check ride, I have more control over costs.

6) Pass Check Ride

7) Fly my plane until I complete or purchase the E-AB or E-SLA of my dreams.

8) Sell the plane to recover some training costs.

My math suggests that if I can depreciation, maintenance, insurance, parking, fuel and repairs come out to less than $9000 by the time I'm issued my PPL I will come out ahead.


Now for my concerns:

1) Am I underestimating the cost of owning a plane? Doing the math, one major failure does not seem like it would completely derail my budget. For example, (an offhand suggestion from pilot I don't know suggests) a top overhaul for multiple cylinders showing low compression on an annual could cost $10K, but I should recover at least half of that in resale, which would still leave $4K to cover other costs. But I am still worried that I am being too optimistic.

2) When researching planes and asking opinions the planes that are suggested include: Cessna 152s, Ercoupes, Talyorcrafts and Luscombe 8s.
a) When taking into account fuel burn, my research suggest the Luscombe 8 or Ercoupe would be cheapest
b) When taking into account what I want, the Luscombe 8 looks like the plane 7 year old me imagined himself flying.
I understand I will need a tail wheel endorsement (I want one even if my plane is tricycle), but am I underestimating the risks and insurance costs of flying a tailwheel with so little flight time?

3) The nearest airstrip to my new job (and presumably my new home) is a grass strip. Ideally I would like to be as close as possible to my plane, and I would be inclined to think that a grass strip would offer a cheaper tiedown (I have not called to price them), but would the grass strip's location and potential cost savings offset the risk of a low hours pilot flying to and from the strip regularly.

4) In spite of this massive word vomit, years of dreaming about this, and it being the primary thing I have thought about since I accepted the new job (even though I probably should be thinking about moving), I know I am missing something. The question is, am I missing something big enough to derail this plan?

If you read all of that, you deserve my thanks, if you have anything to add to this, please be an awesome human and tell me, even if it is just to tell me I'm an idiot.

TL,DR: I think too much, will it bankrupt me?

[CHICAGORANDY]

From my own personal financial disasters over the decades I would advise against piling on up to $15000 in debt (cost to get a PPL) plus the substantial costs of airplane ownership on top of a student loan burden. I'd suggest taking that $750 a month and paying down the student loans to 0 first, then start your flight training with some 'discretionary' money for what IS a rather pricey hobby, remembering it is just a hobby .

Most training locally is in the range of 'about' $150-$175 per hour for instructor and plane rental, insurances not included. $750 = 5 hours a month of training, which some might suggest is going to drag out the total hours you will need to perhaps double the 40 hour requirement or more. Personally, I'm (at age 69) looking to start training for a Sport Pilot license. Money is tight and I've decided NOT to begin until I have sufficient $$ in the bank to fund the project through completion.

Like any discretionary, fun pastime hobby item….boat, motorcycle, ATV, golf AND flying, it's more fun if you can also eat regularly and live indoors - lol

Just this old goof's two cents.

[thisadviceisworthles]

Thanks for the advice.

As for the student loans, I am expecting to pay off the worst of them with the sale of my house (I will be renting for the foreseeable future). The rest will be eligible for forgiveness due to my job in the future.

How many hours per month should I plan to train to avoid dragging it?

[CHICAGORANDY]

It was suggested to me to shoot for 3 hours per week. And have a schedule that allows for the inevitable weather cancellations.

I'm sure those who are FAR more knowledgeable and experienced on this subject will chime in. Like I said I am far below novice status.

[gbrasch]

I would concentrate on getting the license first, and worry about the complexity of aircraft ownership later.

[Bill Greenwood]

One way to save some money is to learn as much as you can by the best methods you can other than sitting in an airplane with a CFI at $175 per hour. You can, if really disciplined, get the cheapest books, maybe even free at the library or buy a set from a student who just got his private license. Perhaps a better way is to spend the money, ( think it is $200?) to get the computer interactive course, think both King and Sportys have one, and really prepare for the written the most effective way like that. I like King, one thing about Sportys, is I think if uses Cessnas, so is a little better for high wing, though Im sure it translated ok to low wing planes. If you go on in aviation, ,more likely more of the high performance or advanced planes are going to be low wing, but really it is sort of like do you prefer Coke or Pepsi>
So thats the approach to passing the written test, and some of the knowledge for the flying part. The next thing you can do is hang out at the airport if yours is a friendly one, and learn as much as you can for free. You can learn a lot about the flare part of landing by watching others land,both good and bad. if they or you have access to a simulator it can be valueble for the first hours and quieter and cheaper than in a plane.

[Bill Greenwood]

When it comes to flying part the right or best instructor is vital. Some frankly are not conducive to learning, they are willing to take your money almost indefinitely and dont really care how well or how quickly you learn. The have the motivation to drag out your training, more money for them, rather than expedite it. Some instructors frankly, seem to feel that being a pilot is a sacred inner circle that should be limited to only an elite few. You dont need that kind, but as novice it is often hard to know who is what. Ask around and see which students liked their CFI, and important, WHY they did or did not like them? The guy or even better maybe the girl you want is the one who loves to fly and wants to SHARE the excitement with you, not the one who sees you as the income stream to pay off his new boat loan. Try to find facts on how long it took their students to solo and get their license. I soled in 12 hours, and got my private in 43 and I could have done it maybe 10 less in an ideal world. My CFI was above average, his best point was he was trying to teach me, not hold me back. Of course I did some on my own and I had the time and money to do it, but I didnt have the interactive course or simulator we have now. You can find CFIs who have a great story about how it should take 25 hours to solo today since the airspace is more complicated and so on, Dont buy it, most likely you may solo a C172 or similar which is almost the same as in my day in the Piper 140 and as for as airspace you are likely going to solo at your home airport not in a class B (TCA) just like 40 years ago, it doesnt take twice as long.To do the whole private rating may take some more time if you have more complex avionics etc.

[CarlOrton]

Many folks have purchased a plane and learned in it from day 1. Most important thing there is to find an instructor who's OK with that. Most FBOs want to rent you a plane for obvious reasons. You'll also need to address the insurance issues, i.e, adding the instructor to your coverage. They want to be included, too.

If you're going this route, I encourage you to take some time and become an airport bum for awhile - several months. If you're going to buy your trainer, you'll need a GOOD pre-buy inspection. Just about anyone can do a pre-buy; you want a relationship with a good A&P who knows you'll be using him/her in the future for your annuals, repairs, maintenance, etc. A good A&P will push you away from a questionable plane. When I was buying mine, we (A&P and I) found several planes that were in an airworthy condition, but paperwork was the issue. Things like repairs done that weren't in the logs, ADs not complied with, etc.

You can find a somewhat decent aircraft, but it may be ugly, need upholstery, etc. As long as it's in good shape, don't sweat it. Unless you're in one of those areas where it's more important to LOOK good than to BE good. I would NOT count on having a full top overhaul done; that can be determined with good confidence during pre-buy. You *might* have an issue during the first year or so with something like a stuck valve, but that doesn't mean they're all bad.

You also want to find a plane that's been flown regularly. While low hours are great, I'd rather have an 8000 hr 150/2 that has had 200 hrs/year put on it, along with corresponding maintenance, than one with 1500 hrs that's only flown 20 hrs/year.

In Atlanta, corrosion may be an issue; you *can* find one in fairly decent shape, but just take your time and look. Lastly, don't buy on price alone. As a wise sage told me years ago, if you're looking for a relatively common plane like a 172/152/Cherokee, etc., you will find it in your own backyard. No need to fly to CA just cuz one is cheap.

Regarding whether it will bankrupt you or not, that's your call. Many people have to drive an expensive car, get a Starbucks every day, and play golf several times a week at a typical course. Set your priorities, and if the other things are more expensive, delay your foray into aviation. If your income permits an airplane loan and hangar/insurance costs, if something bad happened like a rod going thru the case, you can always just suspend operations for a year or two while still making the payments, so I don't see that bankrupting you. Might cramp your style, but, hey, treat it as a learning experience.

[Bill Berson]

Might get a good deal on a used EA-B for training. If you have an instructor that will teach in it.
In 1975, my brother and I restored an Aeronca Chief and I built time in that and got the private after flying solo about 70 hrs. Sold for slightly more than parts cost.
I would get a simpler Sport Pilot Certicate if I had to do it now.

[lnuss]

How many hours per month should I plan to train to avoid dragging it?

Not hours, as such, but I'd suggest a minimum of flying twice a week (three times is better), to minimize the amount of review time on each training flight. I'd also suggest, as some have above, that you be sure that you can afford to see the training through to completion without pause, since that will minimize your cost. Whether this is done by financing your training or by saving up, it will help a lot, in terms of minimizing the number of hours required, thus the costs involved.

While Bill G. talks about some problem CFIs, there are also occasions when a specific instructor, no matter how good, has what amounts to a personality conflict with a specific student -- not something that reflects badly on either person, just a fact of life. So if your training seems to be progressing poorly, or you seem to have trouble communicating effectively with your CFI, then don't be afraid to ask for a different instructor, or perhaps ask the chief instructor to have another CFI check your progress (that should be done as part of the curriculum at most schools anyway).

But don't slack off on the ground studies, and don't be afraid to ask questions, either.

[steve]

1. My instructor wanted me to fly twice a week as a minimum.
2. Get out of debt before buying an airplane.
3. Be aware of the looming ADSB-Out deadline, as you are in the metro Atlanta area. It'$ better to have the equipment installed by the previou$ owner.

[robert l]

I got my PPL in 1974 usually flying one hr. on week ends. Of course, there were days the weather didn't cooperate and it took me 13 months from start to finish. There are places that you can get a Sport Pilot rating in two to three weeks if you have the time and money. A plus would be to pass the written test first unless your instructor wants to coordinate the flight training with the book work. Just a thought.
Bob

[David Lewis]

Taking up private flying while you are in debt is a bad plan. Borrowing money to by an airplane is insane. After you are out of debt and have an emergency fund, then you can look at your budget and see whether you can afford recreational flying. My advice to any student pilot is get your medical certificate first. You don't want expensive training and then flunk your medical. The second thing might be ground school and take the written test. This can be done concurrently with simulator time and dual instruction, but get it out of the way so you don't have it hanging over your head.

[martymayes]

if you have anything to add to this,

With 20/20 hindsight, if I did it all over again, I would buy a plane and learn to fly in the plane I bought. It would be a homely little Cessna 150. Training in multiple types is going to cost more. Buying a plane that does not have the necessary equipment for a 'checkride' as required by the PP ACS is going to add cost to your training. Buying a fixer-upper is going to add cost to your training.

A pretty good Cessna 150 can be purchased for ~$18-$20k. The goal is to find one that doesn't need any work or upgrades. One that is ready to go as a trainer. You should be able to find several potential CFI's to train with you in your own plane. Interview them all and pick one (that will be harder than picking a plane).

Schedule 3-4 lessons per week. It will take about 10-12 weeks to meet all the aeronautical experience requirements and be proficient to pass the test. It will take $5-6k out of pocket to operate the plane over that time, pay the instructor plus pay for supplies and exam fees.

[dougbush]

1) I think it's better to rent until you get your PPL, for two reasons. First, if money is tight, you don't have to worry about unexpected repair bills, and you can stop spending on it whenever you need to. Second, you probably will know a lot more then than now about what type of plane you want to buy.

2) Good question for an insurance agent.

3) I understand some planes and pilots prefer unpaved runways.

4) It would help to know what you plan to do with your plane, such as where you plan to travel, with whom, and why you'll be flying every week. And, what's available to rent in your area?

[laytonl]

I agree with those that have recommending renting until getting the PPL. Even if that is more expsensive - which I doubt - it gives you an easy out if other expenses pop up. Where are you in the ATL area? There is a good EAA chapter in Carrollton (CTJJ and also some economical Rental airplanes. Lee

[DaleB]

First, the timing. If you're in debt now, get OUT of debt before you start training. Worrying about the money will only hamstring your training and screw up your non-flying life. Don't dig a hole deeper than you can get out of.

Second, I'd recommend not buying an airplane until you have your license and get some time behind you. Why? Because you have no idea, right now, how much or what kind of flying you're going to want to do after you get the training and a little experience. You don't know your mission yet, so you have a 50/50 chance of picking the wrong airplane. Also, it might be difficult to find a CFI and DPE to get your training and practical exam in an Experimental. Once you're on your own you have a lot more flexibility around what you fly. Buying and flying a sound, well built E/AB or E-LSA in good condition can be a much better and more affordable proposition than a 40 to 70+ year old airplane that needs an A&P every time something breaks.

[raytoews]

Man, you have got to be an MBA. Most of us just save a bit buy an airplane and go flying. Not rational. But fun.

[keen9]

1) Finish paying non-mortgage debt. Sounds like you are doing that.
2) Go for it. Your plan makes it obvious that you have what it takes to make it through assuming the passion stays with you.
3) It will likely cost more than your plan => Add one more step to make sure you enjoy the process. You are paying for flying and being an aircraft owner, not a certificate! The certificate just lets you kick that expensive instructor out (most of the time, recurrent training is good!).

The unexpected will happen. Moves, job changes, meeting members of the opposite sex, etc. If you wait until you have every last thing settled, you will never start.

[challenger1]

I've wanted to be a pilot since I was 7, but as a kid it was always one of those things that everyone told me was not realistic (maybe that's why I've wanted it so bad).

Now I'm 30, and I'm still not a pilot, and that fact is pissing me off.

The fact is, at my income and with my student loans money is tight, and the potential costs of flying lessons concerns me, but I have been reading about ideas to cut costs and I think I have a plan, but I am worried that I am underestimating risk and overlooking better options.

I just accepted a job that comes with a significant raise and once I sell my house I intend to budget $750/month for flying. After flight training, I want to buy an airplane to fly at least once, ideally more, every week. For reference this is near the Metro Atlanta,GA area.

This is my rough plan:

1) Start Flight training, train with my instructor on rented equipment until I begin to solo.

2) Start Solo time, rent an aircraft to maintain training pace, and look for a plane for purchase

3) With a small down payment, finance a plane in the $15k-20K range

4) Work with instructor to learn my plane

5) Finish solo training in my plane, knowing that if it takes an extra 10, 20 or 30 hours to prep my for my check ride, I have more control over costs.

6) Pass Check Ride

7) Fly my plane until I complete or purchase the E-AB or E-SLA of my dreams.

8) Sell the plane to recover some training costs.

My math suggests that if I can depreciation, maintenance, insurance, parking, fuel and repairs come out to less than $9000 by the time I'm issued my PPL I will come out ahead.


Now for my concerns:

1) Am I underestimating the cost of owning a plane? Doing the math, one major failure does not seem like it would completely derail my budget. For example, (an offhand suggestion from pilot I don't know suggests) a top overhaul for multiple cylinders showing low compression on an annual could cost $10K, but I should recover at least half of that in resale, which would still leave $4K to cover other costs. But I am still worried that I am being too optimistic.

2) When researching planes and asking opinions the planes that are suggested include: Cessna 152s, Ercoupes, Talyorcrafts and Luscombe 8s.
a) When taking into account fuel burn, my research suggest the Luscombe 8 or Ercoupe would be cheapest
b) When taking into account what I want, the Luscombe 8 looks like the plane 7 year old me imagined himself flying.
I understand I will need a tail wheel endorsement (I want one even if my plane is tricycle), but am I underestimating the risks and insurance costs of flying a tailwheel with so little flight time?

3) The nearest airstrip to my new job (and presumably my new home) is a grass strip. Ideally I would like to be as close as possible to my plane, and I would be inclined to think that a grass strip would offer a cheaper tiedown (I have not called to price them), but would the grass strip's location and potential cost savings offset the risk of a low hours pilot flying to and from the strip regularly.

4) In spite of this massive word vomit, years of dreaming about this, and it being the primary thing I have thought about since I accepted the new job (even though I probably should be thinking about moving), I know I am missing something. The question is, am I missing something big enough to derail this plan?

If you read all of that, you deserve my thanks, if you have anything to add to this, please be an awesome human and tell me, even if it is just to tell me I'm an idiot.

TL,DR: I think too much, will it bankrupt me?

I have just been down this road.

I would suggest renting from a decent sized school after you pay down your debt. That way you learn to fly different airplanes with different instructors.

Let the school worry about the airplane, my school has 3 planes I learned in. It took me 3 instructors to get my PPL because they would get enough hours and move on to the airlines. I learned new stuff every time with new instructors. Took me about 15 months and 65-70 hours to get my PPL. You will do it in less cause your younger. I flew twice a week most weeks.

I finished my PPL with a guy who is 69 and just loves aviation and is not going anywhere soon. He is also my instrument trainer. He is the chief flight instructor now at my school now too after graduating to the position. I found him through the school. He is a treasure, I am so lucky to train with him.

Now I am flying a friends 172N but still renting planes working on my instrument rating. My friends plane does not have a GPS and we use them at school to instrument train. So I rent, it is not that much more expensive than owning I am hear to say. Sometimes renting is cheaper than owning.

The school always has a plane ready for me to fly and a instructor to fly with me. I stayed with the same instructor most times, but once in a while I will fly with one of the other instructors for stage checks. I learn something every time with a new instructor.

Then let's talk about avionics. Your not going to have a GPS or modern panels to learn from like the schools have in your own 20000 dollar plane.

I learned in 6 pack planes with a garmin 530 GPS/Nav/Com. I only learned the Com on the 530 until well after my 2nd solo X country. Then our school got a G1000 172 and I learned to fly it. That would not happen if I was flying my own 20K air plane.

Get your you license first and then fly/rent for a while and learn what you want or need is my opinion.

[raytoews]

Astonishing, I taught a friend to fly, ultralight in Canada. He has flown over 100 hours and now is taking training for his private. They are telling him he has to do 17 hrs before he can solo. He's learning in an old spam can. They did 8 spins on one flight. WTF.
Unfortunately in our neck of the woods training is hard to find.
This is why I am in the ultralight world and own an OM aircraft.
I don't mind bragging a little, in Canada we have a much less restrictive environment to fly in.
And apparently we have lots of aluminum.

[martymayes]

in Canada we have a much less restrictive environment to fly in.

How so?

[Floatsflyer]

I think raytoews doesn't mean to use the words "less restrictive" in the regulatory sense to describe the overall GA environment in Canada. We are subject to as many rules and regs as you are in the US.

I think what he means is that Transport Canada(TC) is a much more benign overseer of private GA and therefore far less intrusive than the FAA in the lives of it's pilots and aircraft owners. Unlike the FAA, TC does not seem to spend it's time dreaming up new roadblocks that undermine our freedom to fly. TC concentrates more on commercial than private aviation.

[Bill Greenwood]

Raytoews, does Canada require spins to get a private license? I would be surprised by that. it is not required in the U S. I think spin training is important, actually to recognize and avoid getting close to a spin, and if you do, to recover promptly and fully. An average pilot in a Cessna may never spin one, but if you are going to fly a T-6 or acro planes you need that training. I asked my CFI to do spin training and he did, we did it in a Piper Tomahawk, and I was novice enough that we didnt have parachutes, and yes it sure will spin but recovered as it was supposed to, opposite rudder and let go of back pressure to stop the spin. I think we did one each way. I would be really surprised if a CFI did 8 spins in one lesson, I think 2 or 3 would risk airsickness and is unlikfley to be needed to do 8 for a private lesson. I think your friend might be pulling your leg on that report, but I dont know Canada regs and procedures.

[Bill Berson]

The Canadian Ultralight rules are less restrictive (to me) I wish the FAA would issue a blanket exemption option for Americans to use the Canadian Ultralight rules.

[Frank Giger]

They can also take a certified aircraft into another category that is much less restrictive to maintenance.

On spin training, I'm with Bill. Heck, I'm a lowly Sport Pilot and went through spin training; I figured the first time I went into a spin it would be best to have a trained instructor along for the ride.