Paint for fabric covered aircraft

[chuckb01]

Hi,
My first post I think. I am in the process of building my 4th experimental aircraft and I am having a problem choosing a GOOD paint. The airplane is an older kit called a Seastar. I think there is more than one Seastar. This one is the same as the Paturi or the Petrel which is manufactured in Brazil. It is a bi-wing amphibian. The wings are fabric covered and the fuselage is fiberglass/Kevlar/carbon fiber. Other airplanes I have built I used Polyfiber or Superflight products usually. One was painted with the 2 part polyurethane polyfiber. Great finish but tons of work and all minor imperfections stand out. And one I painted with regular polyfiber and the yellow I was sold, FADED very badly after only 3 months. Really looked awful. I would rather not use a 2 part on this plane but I need something durable. I have a lot invested in this in both time and money. Time? Years actually. :) My problem is I want to paint it in a nice pattern using a lime green like "Go Daddy" green and yellow like DHL yellow. And white and some black. Polyfiber said they wanted about $500.00 a qt to mix the paint as I recall. Not today I think!!. So does anyone have any ideas what I can use, or maybe mix my own using polyfiber or what? I have seen some nice airplanes out there using lime green. It has to be pigment based I understand so it won't fade. I won't use latex of any type of vinyl or water based. If anyone has any ideas, i would appreciate it. This is my last build and it has to be my best, I hope. I will probably need to sell it when it's done. Thanks everyone

[Sam Buchanan]

Even though PolyFiber doesn't recommend it, many fabric aircraft have been painted with automotive polyurethane paint. The modern polys are quite flexible and the ones I've seen seem to be holding up very nicely. This will yield a high gloss finish that will hold its gloss with no upkeep other than the semi-annual wash job. Kawasaki Green should be very close to what you are looking for or one of the lime green tints from 70-ish Mopar muscle cars. Hyunda has a stunning yellow on their new Veloster cars. :)

[Bill Berson]

Automotive polyurethane (DuPont Imron) will last about 5-10 years outside and then get brittle and crack. Also cracks in cold weather. The old dope can last 20 years.

[Sam Buchanan]

Imron is not one of the modern automotive finishes.

How many of our custom-built planes spend their life tied down on a ramp? :)

[Bill Berson]

In Alaska, 95% are tied outside for life.

[Sam Buchanan]

I bet it is 100% in Siberia..... ;)

[cub builder]

It used to be acceptable to use any polyurethane paint over polyfibre, but the STC was rewritten to require the use of their paints. It gives them better control of the finishes and limits the blame if you use something other than what was recommended.

I painted my SuperCub Clone with an automotive polyurethane paint over butyrate dope. It worked well enough, and at 7 years old, so far still looks great. Admittedly, it rarely spends a night outside, but it does see plenty of flight time. I needed to touch up some fabric damage on a gear leg and found the original paint had precipitated out a bit in the can and no longer matched, so had some acrylic urethane mixed to match. I also needed to modify an elevator, so when I recovered the elevator, I finished it with Acrylic Urethane over top of butyrate dope. The Acrylic Urethane is easier to shoot and much easier to spray a nice finish as compared to polyurethane, and so far, I am not seeing any issues with the Acrylic Urethane either. I'm thinking if I ever build another Experimental, or live long enough to need to recover the Cub Clone, I'll likely cover with Stewart's and finish it with an Acrylic Urethane. Before someone jumps on the "you can't do that" bandwagon, note that it would be an E-AB aircraft, and would definitely be an experiment; albeit based on my experiments so far, an experiment I predict to be successful.

[Kyle Boatright]

It used to be acceptable to use any polyurethane paint over polyfibre, but the STC was rewritten to require the use of their paints. It gives them better control of the finishes and limits the blame if you use something other than what was recommended.

I painted my SuperCub Clone with an automotive polyurethane paint over butyrate dope. It worked well enough, and at 7 years old, so far still looks great. Admittedly, it rarely spends a night outside, but it does see plenty of flight time. I needed to touch up some fabric damage on a gear leg and found the original paint had precipitated out a bit in the can and no longer matched, so had some acrylic urethane mixed to match. I also needed to modify an elevator, so when I recovered the elevator, I finished it with Acrylic Urethane over top of butyrate dope. The Acrylic Urethane is easier to shoot and much easier to spray a nice finish as compared to polyurethane, and so far, I am not seeing any issues with the Acrylic Urethane either. I'm thinking if I ever build another Experimental, or live long enough to need to recover the Cub Clone, I'll likely cover with Stewart's and finish it with an Acrylic Urethane. Before someone jumps on the "you can't do that" bandwagon, note that it would be an E-AB aircraft, and would definitely be an experiment; albeit based on my experiments so far, an experiment I predict to be successful.

IIRC from a factory tour some years ago, the Legend Cub guys used PPG Concept (an automotive Acrylic Urethane) as the topcoat on their factory built planes. I forget which system they used through the silver coats. Maybe Stewarts, maybe not...

[chuckb01]

Thanks very much for your reply. I have been doing some research on polyurethanes and have used them before on fiberglass sailboats and one seaplane hull. I did some more research on Imron and peoples opinion vary. Some say it will kill you. Some say you need a fresh air respirator. I used an organic respirator with no problem. And i don't paint outside because the smell of the stuff seems to attract the bugs. I may do a couple test samples of fabric i have put on test frames about a foot square. I think it will work on fabric from what I found out so far. thanks again

[chuckb01]

Automotive polyurethane (DuPont Imron) will last about 5-10 years outside and then get brittle and crack. Also cracks in cold weather. The old dope can last 20 years.

Thanks but no on the dope. I have been doing research on Imron and most agree it will work. I still need to find out more though. I really don't want the wet glossy look and i think Imron comes also in a semi gloss.

[Sam Buchanan]

IIRC from a factory tour some years ago, the Legend Cub guys used PPG Concept (an automotive Acrylic Urethane) as the topcoat on their factory built planes. I forget which system they used through the silver coats. Maybe Stewarts, maybe not...

I've used PPG Concept single stage on several projects and always had good results. I mixed up paint tech terms (polyurethane and acrylic urethane) in an earlier post when referring to modern automotive finishes. The new stuff is amazing technology, it is more of a flexible plastic coating than "paint". I often see significant dents in cars where the finish isn't cracked.

[chuckb01]

Imron is not one of the modern automotive finishes.

How many of our custom-built planes spend their life tied down on a ramp? :)

Yeah, I think Imron has been around a while. I'm going to do some test samples. A lot of people have used it on fabric with great success. My airplane certainly wouldn't be out side a lot when not in use.

[chuckb01]

I've used PPG Concept single stage on several projects and always had good results. I mixed up paint tech terms (polyurethane and acrylic urethane) in an earlier post when referring to modern automotive finishes. The new stuff is amazing technology, it is more of a flexible plastic coating than "paint". I often see significant dents in cars where the finish isn't cracked.

Hey thanks Sam. I see you are an EAA tech counselor. Cool. I'm in the right forum. :) It will be a bit before I am ready to paint but I'm going to do some test samples on a couple test frames I made. I also need to check to see if Imron or PPG concept is compatible with Polyfiber products up to and including the silver coat. I think it will be. i just won't use polyfiber paint anymore and they also don't have the colors i want, unless I won't pay big bucks to have them mix it special. Alos really don't want the wet look. Just normal shiny.

[chuckb01]

It used to be acceptable to use any polyurethane paint over polyfibre, but the STC was rewritten to require the use of their paints. It gives them better control of the finishes and limits the blame if you use something other than what was recommended.

I painted my SuperCub Clone with an automotive polyurethane paint over butyrate dope. It worked well enough, and at 7 years old, so far still looks great. Admittedly, it rarely spends a night outside, but it does see plenty of flight time. I needed to touch up some fabric damage on a gear leg and found the original paint had precipitated out a bit in the can and no longer matched, so had some acrylic urethane mixed to match. I also needed to modify an elevator, so when I recovered the elevator, I finished it with Acrylic Urethane over top of butyrate dope. The Acrylic Urethane is easier to shoot and much easier to spray a nice finish as compared to polyurethane, and so far, I am not seeing any issues with the Acrylic Urethane either. I'm thinking if I ever build another Experimental, or live long enough to need to recover the Cub Clone, I'll likely cover with Stewart's and finish it with an Acrylic Urethane. Before someone jumps on the "you can't do that" bandwagon, note that it would be an E-AB aircraft, and would definitely be an experiment; albeit based on my experiments so far, an experiment I predict to be successful.

That sounds good. Worth looking into. I'm glad I asked my questions and I'm getting a lot of good educated answers. Polyfiber also only recommends their fabric. I used Stits and I bet it's the identical type material.

[rwanttaja]

One thing about Imron and the gloss finishes on fabric: They're harder to make a repair blend in, if you have to patch something.

Also, be aware of the safety requirements of the finishes. Some are quite toxic during application, and just a mask won't hack it. You'll need an outside air supply to a full-face mask.

Ron Wanttaja

[chuckb01]

One thing about Imron and the gloss finishes on fabric: They're harder to make a repair blend in, if you have to patch something.

Also, be aware of the safety requirements of the finishes. Some are quite toxic during application, and just a mask won't hack it. You'll need an outside air supply to a full-face mask.

Ron Wanttaja

Thanks for the reply. Your absolutely correct about the paint. I painted a Challenger II with 2 part polyfiber urethane and I tore a hole in the bottom of the fuselage. Difficult to repair. Also I really don't want t a high gloss "show plane". :) There are some available now with a lower gloss I hear. And it is toxic. I used a 3M organic face mask with good results but had plenty of ventilation to remove the fumes from the painting area. A fresh air mask would be the best idea. This time i going to build a ventilated structure out of PVC pipe and cover it with clear plastic with a fan in it and a large furnace filter.

[chuckb01]

Even though PolyFiber doesn't recommend it, many fabric aircraft have been painted with automotive polyurethane paint. The modern polys are quite flexible and the ones I've seen seem to be holding up very nicely. This will yield a high gloss finish that will hold its gloss with no upkeep other than the semi-annual wash job. Kawasaki Green should be very close to what you are looking for or one of the lime green tints from 70-ish Mopar muscle cars. Hyunda has a stunning yellow on their new Veloster cars. :)
Going to look up the color suggestions you gave me. Sounds good. Thanks for that.:)

[chuckb01]

Even though PolyFiber doesn't recommend it, many fabric aircraft have been painted with automotive polyurethane paint. The modern polys are quite flexible and the ones I've seen seem to be holding up very nicely. This will yield a high gloss finish that will hold its gloss with no upkeep other than the semi-annual wash job. Kawasaki Green should be very close to what you are looking for or one of the lime green tints from 70-ish Mopar muscle cars. Hyunda has a stunning yellow on their new Veloster cars. :)

I looked up some of the colors you suggested and they were exactly what I had in mind.

[chuckb01]

It used to be acceptable to use any polyurethane paint over polyfibre, but the STC was rewritten to require the use of their paints. It gives them better control of the finishes and limits the blame if you use something other than what was recommended.

I painted my SuperCub Clone with an automotive polyurethane paint over butyrate dope. It worked well enough, and at 7 years old, so far still looks great. Admittedly, it rarely spends a night outside, but it does see plenty of flight time. I needed to touch up some fabric damage on a gear leg and found the original paint had precipitated out a bit in the can and no longer matched, so had some acrylic urethane mixed to match. I also needed to modify an elevator, so when I recovered the elevator, I finished it with Acrylic Urethane over top of butyrate dope. The Acrylic Urethane is easier to shoot and much easier to spray a nice finish as compared to polyurethane, and so far, I am not seeing any issues with the Acrylic Urethane either. I'm thinking if I ever build another Experimental, or live long enough to need to recover the Cub Clone, I'll likely cover with Stewart's and finish it with an Acrylic Urethane. Before someone jumps on the "you can't do that" bandwagon, note that it would be an E-AB aircraft, and would definitely be an experiment; albeit based on my experiments so far, an experiment I predict to be successful.
After doing a bit more reserch, I find i can paint Imron with a HVLP system but they don't recommend it with PPG Concept or Acrylic urethane. Any thoughts on that?

[Sam Buchanan]

After doing a bit more reserch, I find i can paint Imron with a HVLP system but they don't recommend it with PPG Concept or Acrylic urethane. Any thoughts on that?

A whole bunch of RVs have been painted with Concept and HVLP systems. I suspect many auto body shops have had to convert to HVLP for environmental reasons. And a regular ol' gun still works nicely. :)

[rwanttaja]

There's always latex house paint and a roller. Seriously... you can do some pretty neat stuff with latex.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/drew_paint.html

This plane was painted with latex over ten years ago....It's the plane that the above article is about.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/latex10_tail.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Berson]

Imron or any glossy paint can be made flat or semi-gloss, just ask for flattening additive.
Imron can be mixed any of a thousand colors to suit, but very expensive. The cheaper acrylic urethane can have the flex additive (for bumpers) added for fabric. Not as glossy as Imron, but if you don't want gloss.....

[cub builder]

After doing a bit more reserch, I find i can paint Imron with a HVLP system but they don't recommend it with PPG Concept or Acrylic urethane. Any thoughts on that?

I shoot it (Acrylic Urethane) using an HVLP gun (top feed gun with low air pressure as opposed to a turbine type HVLP). It lays on beautifully. I see little difference between spraying Acrylic Urethane and Acrylic Enamel. The finished products have different qualities, but they spray very much the same. For both, I put down a light tack coat, then usually go back and spray two or three additional coats depending on the color and coverage. In my opinion as an amateur painter, I find the Acrylics to be much easier to spray and avoid runs and sags as opposed to Poly Urethanes. I have sprayed Poly Urethanes, sometimes with very good results, but to me, it seems that it requires a lot more attention to detail and to gun set up. The acrylics are dead simple to shoot if you get the paint viscosity anywhere close to correct.

[robert l]

Thanks but no on the dope. I have been doing research on Imron and most agree it will work. I still need to find out more though. I really don't want the wet glossy look and i think Imron comes also in a semi gloss.
You could always use latex house paint !

[chuckb01]

Imron or any glossy paint can be made flat or semi-gloss, just ask for flattening additive.
Imron can be mixed any of a thousand colors to suit, but very expensive. The cheaper acrylic urethane can have the flex additive (for bumpers) added for fabric. Not as glossy as Imron, but if you don't want gloss.....

Sounds about what I want.

[chuckb01]

There's always latex house paint and a roller. Seriously... you can do some pretty neat stuff with latex.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/drew_paint.html

This plane was painted with latex over ten years ago....It's the plane that the above article is about.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/latex10_tail.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

Excuse me if I replied to this twice. I'm getting kind of lost here. :) Yeah, I've seen several planes painted with latex and they really look good. I'm a bit leery of that though. There was a really good looking one in the EAA mag recently.

[Ericklee]

FWIW, I just covered the tail sections of my Buttercup (Wittman) tube and fabric high wing. I elected to start with Water Borne (not water based) poly urethane from Stewart Systems. It's very flexible, but its definitely harder to spray through my hvlp gun than spraying krylon through a rattle can. I was adviced by good authority to use PPG Epoxy based paint. Personally, I don't want to paint my whole plain using highly toxic paint. So, I will do the best I can with the Waterborne paint. I've heard of guys getting great results with auto paint, but it also depends on how heavy you want the aircraft to be. It affects payload to put paint on so its beautiful and thick. The fabric work is kind of a lot of time and effort, or I would use rattle cans and probably get the best look using a Krylon paint that they offer in some very bright colors including green and yellow. Start out with small parts, first. Good luck.

[rwanttaja]

FWIW, I just covered the tail sections of my Buttercup (Wittman) tube and fabric high wing. I elected to start with Water Borne (not water based) poly urethane from Stewart Systems. It's very flexible, but its definitely harder to spray through my hvlp gun than spraying krylon through a rattle can. I was adviced by good authority to use PPG Epoxy based paint. Personally, I don't want to paint my whole plain using highly toxic paint. So, I will do the best I can with the Waterborne paint. I've heard of guys getting great results with auto paint, but it also depends on how heavy you want the aircraft to be. It affects payload to put paint on so its beautiful and thick. The fabric work is kind of a lot of time and effort, or I would use rattle cans and probably get the best look using a Krylon paint that they offer in some very bright colors including green and yellow. Start out with small parts, first. Good luck.

Interesting timing, about rattle can paint. My Fly Baby is painted with Aerothane, which is toxic to use and takes a lot of work to get a repainted spot to match.

So...I don't bother. Years ago, I discovered that Rustoleum Almond is a near-perfect color match. When I replaced a gear leg about 20 years ago, I used a standard paint gun to paint the new one. Its gloss and appearance are very close to the Aerothane.

Recently, I decided to get rid of an inoperable strobe and the extremely ugly balsa tower the bulb was mounted on (my plane was completed in the '80s, and I fly as sport pilot). Easy enough to get rid of the tower, more difficult to plug the hole that the wires ran through, and touch up the paint the tower had scraped.

Used structural epoxy to plug the hole, and rattle-can Rustoleum Almond to paint. Color, again, was a good match, but the texture is obviously different. Perhaps if I'd used a paint gun again it would have matched the surface better, or if I'd put on multiple light coats. But as one of my EAA buddies said to me (rather disgustedly), "You know Ron, nobody but YOU is ever going to notice....."
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tail_tale.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Stewarts....... http://www.stewartsystems.aero/default.aspx

Easy to use. Yellow holds up well
Jim

[Martyfeehan]

Stewarts....... http://www.stewartsystems.aero/default.aspx

Easy to use. Yellow holds up well
Jim

I have to agree. I teach the seminars for Stewart Systems at Oshkosh, Sun N Fun, etc. I'm a home builder and don't have a dedicated spray booth or a $5,000 spray set up. If you follow the manual, watch a few of the videos and than do some practice you will find that shooting with a good HVLP gun is easy. Biggest mistake made is using a Harbor Freight HVLP gun with a compressor putting out only 6-8 cfm. The Purple monster from HF has too small a fan and not the right tip size for the paint; tip needs to be 1.3 for paint and 1.5 for EkoFill and compressor must put out 12 cfm or more; you won't get that with a 110V compressor. Before you decide on using a highly toxic paint, give us a shot. I'll be giving a seminar on painting at Airventure on Monday at 4:00pm in the ultralight area and will be teaching covering all week right by the Red Barn in the ultralight area. I attached a picture of my latest project; refinishing a $20 canoe! Yup, my sun-in-law paid $20 for the old Sears canoe. I used a grinder with 80grit to strip off the paint, repaired the cracks and such with epoxy and micro balloons and shot it with EkoFill followed by Ekopoly with flatter. The prep on the glass is lousy, the finish is great. The intend was to roll on marine epoxy but ..... no longer available here on the California coast due to has-mat! So, I shot the Ekopoly and it looks great. It's now a "$20 horse with a $50 saddle". I shot the canoe in the garage, with the doors open, three fans and the back door open for cross ventilation. There is no trash in the paint and no overspray anywhere in the shop. I can't emphasize how easy this is to shoot. I wore shorts, tee shirt, and a good charcoal mask.
Marty
7323

[CraigCantwell]

Chuck: I would highly suggest that you download and read the SDS sheets on Imron and it's various components before you settle on using it. It is highly toxic while being mixed and sprayed. I had a friend that 20+ years of randomly spraying Imron and other toxic paints with just dust or filtered masks, died of various problems brought on by having less than 20% lung function due to inhaling the fumes and particles. A forced air mask and suit are required to shoot it due to it's some of it's components.
Couple that with it running in the 500$ a gallon or higher range, there are less expensive and less toxic products out there.

[lynnlpitts]

When I was a kid, back in the late '60's, I rebuilt a wrecked Taylorcraft BC-12D. I used DuPont Dulex enamel, which Stits recommended. Applied two cross coats and used about a gallon and half. It came out beautiful and in the 500 hours and seven years I owned it stayed in great shape. By the way, the compressor was homemade and the gun was a Buffalo brand, similar to Harbor Freight stuff now. Bought the wreck for 375 dollars, overhauled the engine with new surplus parts, new prop and glass, repaired struts and spars and interior and etc. Had a little over eleven hundred dollars total in acquisition and rebuild, total. I was fortunate to be guided by aviation friends and mechanics because I knew very little about airplanes! Lynn Pitts EAA #49054

[Jim Heffelfinger]

This might be too late for the OP but have you seen this .... using household paint.... watch video http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/2735032127001/webinar--latex-paint-for-your-homebuilt-aircraft?autoStart=true&q=latex
Be aware that modern house paint does not have any Latex. 100% acrylic polymers

[chuckb01]

IIRC from a factory tour some years ago, the Legend Cub guys used PPG Concept (an automotive Acrylic Urethane) as the topcoat on their factory built planes. I forget which system they used through the silver coats. Maybe Stewarts, maybe not...

Anyone know anything about PPG Aerospace paint? I saw a demo Kitfox at Airventure this year and that's what they had it painted with. And it's a fabric covered airplane. I would like to find out about the paint components like flex agents and types of finish, flat, semi gloss, gloss, etc.

[crusty old aviator]

Cover your airframe with white Oratex and paint it whatever color you like...

[waltermitty]

Or cover it in Oratex and don't paint it. It comes in a variety of colors.

[Martyfeehan]

If anyone is interested in learning the Stewart Systems from cover to paint, I will be doing another seminar in Nipomo, Ca Nov. 30 - Dec. 2. Each attendee will start with a bare rudder on Friday and have them completely painted by Friday.
Marty

[Aerco]

I do fabric covering for a living and have a box full of fabric and paint samples I collected over the years. Without exception, all paints that we're not designed to go on fabric turned hard and brittle. Imron too, even with flex agents added. Worse, they could all be peeled off by simply pushing my finger under a crack. I just finished a pampered 2008 Husky (120hours, always hangared) that has some Dupont urethane finish from the factory - same thing. It looks shiny but push a little hard near a crack and you can lift off all the coatings and are left with bare fabric. Great for repairs, you don't need to sand down to bare fabric! I jest...

But everyone has their own ideas and knows better. Urethanes can work but I'd stick to Aerothane or Ranthane. Not too impressed with water born systems either. Like I said, I have while box full of horror stories. Even regular dope and Polyfiber will fall off or crack if you don't follow the manual! But, again, everyone knows better...

[Dana]

The thing I haven't seen mentioned is ease of repair. Stits, Ceconite/dope, Stewart, are all easy to make repairs if they're not top coated. As soon as you topcoat them with enamel or urethane, making fabric repairs gets a lot more difficult.

My Fisher 404 was Ceconite 7600 (a now discontinued system similar to Stewart) with Dulux and Centari enamel topcoat. Looked beautiful where the finish was intact, but there were lots of ringworm cracks all over the place

[cub builder]

My Fisher 404 was Ceconite 7600 (a now discontinued system similar to Stewart) with Dulux and Centari enamel topcoat. Looked beautiful where the finish was intact, but there were lots of ringworm cracks all over the place

Centari is an Acrylic Enamal. I used to paint with it quite a bit. Easy to spray, but brittle and easily chipped once it ages a bit. I would expect it to ringworm quite readily.

-Cub Builder