Improving Pedestrian Traffic Flow, North Aircraft Display Exhibit Area

[Wrongway Feldman]

East of KNAPP ST and north of GALATIN AVE.
There is a lack of east/west pedestrian walkways.
The next nearest east/west street north of GALATIN AVE. is AUDREY ST.
which is the street that is located on the north side of fighter town USA.

During the week of AirVenture the P-1 Taxiway is used for taxiing airplanes and
cannot be used as a pedestrian walkway. Also the intersecting roads that cross
the P-1 taxiway are periodically closed and cannot be crossed do to airplane traffic.

My suggestion to correct the issue is to construct a walkway or access road on the south side of
P-1 taxiway. The new sidewalk would run from KNAPP ST to WITTMAN RD. Parallel to the P-1 taxiway.

With a new walkway constructed at the north end of the north aircraft display exhibit area,
pedestrian traffic would be able to circle around to the other exhibits on CORRIGAN LN. or
continue on to EDDIE RD, Subway and KNAPP ST.

When the P-1 Taxiway intersecting roads are periodically closed, pedestrians (Rail Birds) could take photos,
from the walkway, of aircraft that are taxiing on the P-1 Taxiway.

The new walkway should be named, WRONGWAY FELDMAN WALKWAY.:)

Existing
7263 (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7263&d=1526924555)

Link to Photo (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7263&d=1526924555)


Proposed


7264 (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7264&d=1526924604)

Link to Photo (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7264&d=1526924604)


Existing
7251 (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7251&d=1526869754)

Link to Photo (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7251&d=1526869754)


Proposed
7252 (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7252&d=1526869918)

Link to Photo (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7252&d=1526869918)


Existing
7253 (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7253&d=1526870291)

Link to Photo (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7253&d=1526870291)


Proposed
7254 (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7254&d=1526870370)

Link to Photo (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7254&d=1526870370)


Existing
7255 (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7255&d=1526870459)

Link to Photo (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7255&d=1526870459)


Proposed
7256 (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7256&d=1526870574)

Link to Photo (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7256&d=1526870574)

[dougbush]

Even better would be to call it Wrongway Feldman Multi-use Path and add bicycle parking at both ends.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Most of the pedestrian traffic I've seen is trying to get to Warbirds or the North 40? Perhaps moving your proposed pathway South to bisect the area from P1 to Brugger Abe and onward West to Knapp would be more beneficial? I dunno. Just a thunk on a rainy Chicago Monday.

[steve]

Nice presentation, WF.

[Jeff Point]

I handle aircraft parking in this area so I spend most of my Oshkosh right there. 99% of foot traffic in the area is north-south, not east-west. There is already a pedestrian walkway south of P-1 (albeit grass) that serves the purpose. Plus all of the taxiing aircraft would have to taxi over the grass-asphalt-grass transition, risking damage.

To me me it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

[Mayhemxpc]

I appreciate all of your thought about this. I am concerned, however, that it would present multiple opportunities for the unobservant pedestrians (or observing other things, like airplanes i the sky or somewhere else) to wander into the path of a taxing airplanes. Many Oshkosh attendees are not noted for walking only on the pedestrian pathways.

[Kyle Boatright]

I handle aircraft parking in this area so I spend most of my Oshkosh right there. 99% of foot traffic in the area is north-south, not east-west. There is already a pedestrian walkway south of P-1 (albeit grass) that serves the purpose. Plus all of the taxiing aircraft would have to taxi over the grass-asphalt-grass transition, risking damage.

To me me it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

I was gonna say sort of the same thing. Other than the folks in homebuilt camping, I don't see much demand for E/W traffic at that point. And those of us in HBC are pretty good at broken field running (or walking, as it were) to get back to our campsites.

[Wrongway Feldman]

I handle aircraft parking in this area so I spend most of my Oshkosh right there. 99% of foot traffic in the area is north-south, not east-west. There is already a pedestrian walkway south of P-1 (albeit grass) that serves the purpose. Plus all of the taxiing aircraft would have to taxi over the grass-asphalt-grass transition, risking damage.

To me me it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

The main point I was trying to convey was:
"There is a lack of east/west pedestrian walkways or hard surfaces to walk or travel on" from GALATIN AVE to the P-1 taxiway.
It is 1050 feet from GALATIN AVE to the P-1 taxiway.
In that 1050' span there is no east/west hard surface to easily walk from KNAPP ST to WITTMAN RD. or vice versa.
P-1 is for taxing planes only, so that means you have to go north another 500' to AUDREY ST. to find a hard surface to travel east..
Especially if you are handicap. Personal Disability Mobility Devices don't run well in grass.
It makes absolutely no sense to have to travel 1500 feet to be able to go east on a hard surface.

How much force do you think is applied to the landing gear when its landing?
If your plane's landing gear can't handle a few bumps, I'd be afraid to land it on a runway.
The grass isn't completely bump free ether.
Over at vintage, planes are crossing asphalt all week long.
Homebuilt's are parking in that area and those planes are light weight.


I appreciate all of your thought about this. I am concerned, however, that it would present multiple opportunities for the unobservant pedestrians (or observing other things, like airplanes i the sky or somewhere else) to wander into the path of a taxing airplanes. Many Oshkosh attendees are not noted for walking only on the pedestrian pathways.
On both sides of the P-1 taxiway there are snow fences with flag rope connecting
the openings and they are guarded by volunteers and the Civil Air Patrol cadets.
I have never heard of a EAAer wander into the path of a taxing airplane. Ever!
Planes do not move on the EAA grounds without a grounds crew escort.

[Wrongway Feldman]

I was gonna say sort of the same thing. Other than the folks in homebuilt camping, I don't see much demand for E/W traffic at that point. And those of us in HBC are pretty good at broken field running (or walking, as it were) to get back to our campsites.
That's how I thought until my body became defective.

[Jeff Point]

Over at vintage, planes are crossing asphalt all week long.
Homebuilt's are parking in that area and those planes are light weight.
Most of the planes down in Vintage were designed to operate on grass anyway. With homebuilts I'm more concerned about small nose wheels, prop strikes and fairing damage happening. I've seen it happen all too often.

In any event, while not a paved road, there is a good gravel path the runs E-W about halfway between P-1 and Galatin, through the forums. This path is conducive to walking or to mobility scooters and is already in place. That might meet your needs.

[Wrongway Feldman]

Even better would be to call it Wrongway Feldman Multi-use Path and add bicycle parking at both ends. Good idea !


Most of the pedestrian traffic I've seen is trying to get to Warbirds or the North 40? Perhaps moving your proposed pathway South to bisect the area from P1 to Brugger Ave and onward West to Knapp would be more beneficial? I dunno. Just a thunk on a rainy Chicago Monday. That would be something to consider.
I was also thinking about placing the proposed N/W road in between P1 and Brugger Ave. or on the north side of P-1.
Where I drew it up looks to be the most logical.


Nice presentation, WF.
+1, It took awhile to create those images.
Thanks,

[Wrongway Feldman]

Most of the planes down in Vintage were designed to operate on grass anyway. With homebuilts I'm more concerned about small nose wheels, prop strikes and fairing damage happening. I've seen it happen all too often.

In any event, while not a paved road, there is a good gravel path the runs E-W about halfway between P-1 and Galatin, through the forums. This path is conducive to walking or to mobility scooters and is already in place. That might meet your needs.

A good gravel path is what I envisioned running parallel to P-1, flush with the grass surface.
The same material that is used on the gravel path/sidewalk that parallels both sides of Knapp St.
Any type of path running parallel to P-1 would help keep people off of the P-1 taxiway.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"
Many Oshkosh attendees are not noted for walking only on the pedestrian pathways. ":

Case in point - last year for a few days there was a entry gate on Knapp St at the westernmost end of P1 - it had to be closed and moved because a small group of 'folks' decided that the P1 taxiway made for a jim-dandy east bound sidewalk, paying no attention at all to those aircraft taxiing westward.

Like the blue collar comic Ron White often remarks - "You can't fix stupid."

[Wrongway Feldman]

"
Many Oshkosh attendees are not noted for walking only on the pedestrian pathways. ":

Case in point - last year for a few days there was a entry gate on Knapp St at the westernmost end of P1 - it had to be closed and moved because a small group of 'folks' decided that the P1 taxiway made for a jim-dandy east bound sidewalk, paying no attention at all to those aircraft taxiing westward.

Like the blue collar comic Ron White often remarks - "You can't fix stupid."



You have to admit it is easier to walk on a hard surface than trudging through tall grass.
I have seen parents with their children, pulling wagons behind them, going through that tall grass south of the P-1 taxiway.
They were trying to get to Subway from KNAPP ST.
In that Airventure summer heat, it didn't look like a lot of fun to say the least.
Just cutting the grass short along the snow fencing that runs parallel to P-1 would help.

During a bad weather event you need to move people westerly from WITTMAN RD. quickly,
so they can gain access to their parked vehicle. The more East West hard surfaces the better.
If there were a safety study commissioned, their recommendations would advise constructing a E/W road/sidewalk along side P-1.
Do to the lack of East-West corridors.

[Bill Berson]

I agree with Jeff. The gravel path through forums goes next to Subway. Perhaps closer.

[Wrongway Feldman]

I agree with Jeff. The gravel path through forums goes next to Subway. Perhaps closer. That route through the forums would not be a very efficient route to travel.
There is a possibility of disturbing the presentations that are taking place in the forum buildings.
Sometimes the forum buildings are over capacity and people are standing on the path itself.
I believe the paths to the forum buildings are there to gain access to the forums and not intended
for east west cross traffic. Hence the need for a dedicated straight through East-West corridor.

There are times when I've seen people depart the Northbound Warbirds Red Tram, in front of the Fighter Town USA Entrance. Then cross back over the P-1 taxiway, then go east along the snow fencing to get to the Subway located on EDDIE RD. The proposed path would help facilitate their hunger needs and Subway would substantially increase their revenue.

[Bill Berson]

I spend quite a bit of time at forums and haven't seen any obstructed gravel path or other problems.

[Wrongway Feldman]

I spend quite a bit of time at forums and haven't seen any obstructed gravel path or other problems.When Jeff Skiles and Sully Sullenberger were speaking at one of the forum buildings you couldn't get close to hear them speak. Never the less the paths intended use is to gain access to the forum buildings, not for east west cross traffic.

[Bill Berson]

Yes, but that is the big forum building #6 which is for large crowds.
Take the path near forum 3 and avoid the crowds.

[Wrongway Feldman]

Yes, but that is the big forum building #6 which is for large crowds.
Take the path near forum 3 and avoid the crowds.

I've seen a lot of people at the forum 3 building and the path
that goes by it looks like it was made by a cow pulling a plow.
What I mean is, the route you mentioned, has a lot of turns and twist and is not very level in places.
Not everyone has the luxury of operational ankles.

It would be much safer to construct a straight through east west path in between GALATIN AVE.
and the AUDREY LN. which is on the south side of the P-1 Taxiway.

Don't forget all the photo opportunities of taxiing Aeroplanes on the P-1 Taxiway, along the propose path.

[CarlOrton]

I empathize with Wrongway; for a different example, I hang out in the kitbuilder area quite a bit. If I walk North on Wittman and hit P1, then want to cut West to see the second row of kit mfgrs, I have to try and zig-zag thru exhibits *if* I can find a way thru the exhibits (sometimes they're pretty crammed-in...). If the grass is heavy or uneven, it wreaks havoc with my lower back issues. Many times I wished there was a decent pathway so that I didn't have to backtrack all the way to Brugger (had to look that one up!). I've never had to walk all the way back, but I can see the day in the future when I'd have to do it.

[Wrongway Feldman]

I empathize with Wrongway; for a different example, I hang out in the kitbuilder area quite a bit. If I walk North on Wittman and hit P1, then want to cut West to see the second row of kit mfgrs, I have to try and zig-zag thru exhibits *if* I can find a way thru the exhibits (sometimes they're pretty crammed-in...). If the grass is heavy or uneven, it wreaks havoc with my lower back issues. Many times I wished there was a decent pathway so that I didn't have to backtrack all the way to Brugger (had to look that one up!). I've never had to walk all the way back, but I can see the day in the future when I'd have to do it.
I was thinking the same thing, pertaining to having to cut through to gain access to the exhibits that are on CORRIGAN LN.

The proposed path layout would enable people to walk to the end of the row.
Then circle around to the 2nd rows exhibits. As shown HERE (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7256&d=1526870574)
Just like how the rows/aisles are laid out inside exhibit buildings.

Until I looked at the North Aircraft Display existing exhibit layout (http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7263&d=1526924555)
I never knew that there was an opening midway in the exhibit layout.
Probably because as you say (sometimes they're pretty crammed-in...)
and thought it was part of an exhibit, and never saw the opening.

The other benefit would be, when they temporarily close P-1 due to taxiing aircraft.
There is a tendency for people to bunch up and start backing down WITTMAN RD.
The pathway would allow people to spread out down the pathway rather than backing down WITTMAN RD.
Also while waiting for P-1 to reopen people would have a excellent vantage point to snap a couple photos.

Thanks for the Thumbs-Up on the proposal and for the empathy!