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bookmaker
11-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Hello All.

Although I have a build thread going on at www.theaerodrome.com (http://www.theaerodrome.com), I thought I would follow Frank's lead and post something of my project here.

I am building the full sized version of the Airdrome Aeroplanes Nieuport 17. Since I am 6'2" and range between 210 and 220, I felt the 7/8 scale would not suit me. I got the bug to build one of these planes when I attended Dawn Patrol Rendezvous in 2007. I was bitten bad, but got over it. I went again in 2009, but really didn't get much of the bug that time. However, for some reason in the fall of 2010, I got the bug again, and the rest is history.

I ordered the Graham Lee plan book first, then decided I needed a kit rather than try it from scratch. I chose the AA kit as I felt it was one of the few homebuilt plane projects that I had a reasonable chance of completing. (It took me 6 years to build a car kit.) I was deeply interested in the Nieuport 28, but was drawn to the N 17 as I have a 1/6 scale VK N 17 painted in Lufbery colors. My other possibility was the Sopwith Pup. I also have a 1/3 scale R/C Pup painted in black and white checkerboard. A full scale version would be a real show stopper. However, at the time I was making my decison, I did not like some of the aspects of that kit (since corrected) . Therefore, I chose the N 17.

As for motor, I have a Rotec R2800 7 cylinder radial on order from down under.

Now some about me. I am a licensed private pilot with instrument rating. Although at the time I started this project, I had a tailwheel sign off from flying in a Stearman several years ago, I did not feel comfortable with the signoff, plus it had been several years. I found a fairly local gentleman with a Citabria and have been building tailwheel (and aerobatic) time with him.

Athhough AA advertizes that these planes can be built in 400 hours, reality has set me toward a 3 year project. My goal is to have it flying and restriction time flown off by September 2014 when the next Dawn Patrol Rendezvous is scheduled.

We spent two days in May at the House of Pain working on it, then brought it all back home. Due to work and family committments, plus my desire to "upgrade" certain areas, progress has been slow since we returned. Here are a few photos of where it is now.



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Here is what it is supposed to end up like

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I am currently working on modified V plates and atachments for the lower ends of the landing gear legs. After several hours, here are the basic patterns.

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Dale

Chad Jensen
11-17-2011, 04:55 PM
Excellent!!! This is great, another Nieuport build thread, I love it!:cool:

Frank Giger
11-17-2011, 08:06 PM
And Dale's plane is never going to be parked next to mine.

Unless he wants to really win awards, as it will shine mightily against mine.

:)

bookmaker
02-12-2012, 05:46 PM
It's been awhile since I updated this. I have since reworked the stabilizer, elevators and rudder and got them mounted.

15531554155515561557

Dale

bookmaker
02-21-2012, 12:07 PM
Well, it seems that I have taken 2 steps forward and 3 back. While working on the control horn setup on the elevators, and cleaning up some issues with them, I managed to break one of the ribs. This in itself is not such a big deal, but when added to all the other fiddling, redrilling, reriveting, moving things, etc, I have decided to scrap the current stab and elevators and start over with them. At least now I can start with the finished layout and systems as direct goals and fabricate them without having to modify or "rig" things.

Here is how it looked before the decision.

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Oh, well, the pile in the scrap bin gets taller.

Dale

bookmaker
09-27-2013, 03:19 PM
As is obvious, it has been quite a while since I posted here. I have mostly been posting on www.theaerodrome.com (http://www.theaerodrome.com). While things have been progressing slowly, this project has progressed.

Since the photo above, I scrapped the original stab and elevator and built a new one. The landing gear is substantially complete and I am now working on the wing internal structures.

Here are a few photo updates.

Landing gear:
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3307

New Stab:
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3309
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Upper wing structure
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I've started on the lower wing structure, but that's pretty much where this project is at this time.

Dale
:cool:

Frank Giger
09-27-2013, 10:46 PM
Not only is my plane 7/8 scale, it's only 7/8ths as pretty as Dale's!

I think the 400 hour build time is based on the Robert Baslee "House of Pain" schedule, not the "oh dear, let me redo that" one that we're on.

Looking great!

eiclan
10-04-2013, 12:03 PM
Gday from Australia,First of all congrats on some fine looking work.I can relate to the two steps forward and three back but it is all worth it in the end.Many years ago ,in my youth,I worked for the Western Australian Dept of Agriculture building experimental Farm machinery and it was the same,to achieve the outcome we wanted meant doing two or three different things till it worked how we wanted it to and also, for me, it had to look good.Form and function ,if it flys but looks like rubbish then why would you,so do it as many times as you like till you get what you want and a big plus practice makes perfect. Cheers Ross

bookmaker
10-09-2013, 02:37 PM
The lower wing internal framework is complete. Got this completed several days ago.

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Unfortunately, every weekend in October is scheduled out so little work will get done on the Nieuport. But that included attending an EAA Sportair workshop on electrical and avionics.

I have decided to go back and complete the final items on landing gear, tail gear and stab and elevators before moving on to other areas.

On another note, I bought a 1965 Citabria 7ECA to build tailwheel time. Unfortunately, it went in for annual mid February and got completed late September. But, now my Citabria is back flying so I can continue to build tailwheel time.

Charlie Becker
10-09-2013, 03:24 PM
Dale,

Great seeing you at the workshop and now that I know your project is online here, I'll be keeping tabs.

Charlie

bookmaker
10-10-2013, 10:09 AM
Hi Charlie, It was good speaking with you again. It's good to see the involvement of the EAA staff with the builders.

Hopefully, I can get some progress done in a few weeks. I just have to get the other "Life Issues" taken care of. I am hoping that Novemeber wil be a good build month. In this area, the weather is pretty nice then and the shop is not a steamy oven, nor an ice box.

Trackwelder
10-10-2013, 08:11 PM
The Nieuport was the plane that first started me on being interested in flying, before that I didn't think there was anyway I could afford a plane so why bother with a Pilot Certificate, I had bought Dick Starks books and was about to order plans when I found out I had diabetes, I was able to cure myself of that and picked up a sport pilot certificate, I first started building o rebuilding an Avid Flyer that I had found cheap, but was uncomfortable flying behind a 2-stroke engine and couldn't find the money to buy a 4-stroke that would work, I then started building a Wittman Buttercup and have made much progress on it, I am about ready to put on the landing gear and wings and then it will be where I stopped with the Avid. Time to Cover at least I have the majority of a Lycoming in my basement slowly going together I am building $100 at a time now, I came into some money from Railroad disability and bought the majority of the parts at once to build with, so there is almost always something I can work on when my back is feeling good enough to build. I would love to just have the materials in your scrap bin, they make my work look pretty poor but I was a welder for the better part of 1 years on the railroad and I know that my welds will hold. I am slowly getting the plane in the air, probably another 18 months to be honest but I keep plugging away it will be an airplane not a lawn ornament. The funny thing is I was so scared of the 2-stroke I stopped building the Avid with it in silver and the only taildragger I can get training in is a kitfox with the exact same engine, I guess I will rebuild the engine and have the Avid too.

bookmaker
10-11-2013, 07:52 AM
TW, I have Dick Stark's books and videos as well. Those guys are a real hoot. I have met them at the Gardner, Kansas fly in and they are no different in person.

I was fortunate to get my private pilot license right after I got out of college. It didn't cost near as much back then. For several years I have been a member of a local flying club that owns a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 182. I've always liked airplanes. I started with wire controlled models and progressed to R/C models, then full size. I still have a large collection of R/C models.

As noted earlier, I built a car kit several years ago. So with that kind of history, it was pretty natural that a plane kit was in my life somewhere. I put it off a long time as I am fully aware that I have WAY too many hobbies that I already don't have time for. But, here I am.

Good luck on your projects. I think the 2 stokes have come a long way in reliability. However, there are a lot of 4 strokes out there to consider. One being the V twin 40hp generator motor. I think is is sold as the Big Twin. I've seen two planes fly with them and believe they are a very reliable set up. Sharon Stark's Morane Parasol is powered by one.

Dale

bookmaker
06-04-2015, 09:12 PM
Hi all. It has been a while since I posted here. The project is progressing painfully slow. Several reasons, but not unexpected.

Since the last post, I mounted the rebuilt stab and elevators, pretty much finished the landing gear and just recently mounted the lower wing carry through tubes (after screwing up the first try and having to replace the carry through tubes and 3 fuselage members).

I took the project to Dawn Patrol Rendezvous back in September and was impressed with the number of questions and general interest in a very incomplete project.

I will try to post some photos to catch up this weekend.

Dale

Frank Giger
06-06-2015, 10:45 AM
I've been tracking Dale's build from the beginning, and he's really modest about his efforts.

The Airdrome Airplane kits are something of a canvas to paint on - the planes, as built by the plans, are all good, solid ones. They're represenational of WWI aircraft, looking like their namesakes but completely modern underneath the skin.

For guys like me, it's an affordable, easy kind of plane to build. Basic tools and simple instructions coupled with a few easy to learn skills are all that are needed.

For guys like Dale, it's a chance to elevate the design to something really special. He's worked with Robert Baslee, who designed the planes and is phenomenal in his support of them, Rick Bennett, and a host of really top notch experts in making some modifications that not only improve the plane but make it look a lot more authentic. "Gooder enough" doesn't seem to be in his vocabulary.

Heck, his forward cabanes that wrap around the longerons are worthy of an article in SportAviation.

bookmaker
06-10-2015, 07:54 PM
Let's see if I can remember how to post photos.

Present from Australian Santa:

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It's on wheels - sort of. Have to make airplane noises:

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Tail wheel set up and additional bracing to support it:

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bookmaker
06-10-2015, 08:00 PM
More photos:

Mounting the new stab and elevators:

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Fancy axle caps made from pipe caps turned in a lathe:

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Display set up at Dawn Patrol Rendezvous September 2014;

My guard - Dad

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bookmaker
06-10-2015, 08:11 PM
Final set brings up to date:

My design for better forward cabane strut mounts:

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With larger front cabanes, I wanted larger rear also, but the top must fit between spar mounting plates. How I worked that out:

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Fancy jig set up:

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Spar Plates attached:

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Cabane structure basics in place:

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Lower wing and cable carry through tubes mounted:

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That's where it sits today. I have a hangar at the local airport where I have the wing internal structures waiting for me to bring out the fuselage, jig it up and start fitting the wing structure to the fuselage. Due to work issues and planning to go to a fly in at Gardner Kansas in a few days, work will be pretty much a stand still until July.

Dale

bookmaker
08-16-2015, 08:08 AM
The N17 project continues slowly, but is moving. Recent interruptions include a week at Oshkosh and a weekend with my daughter whitewater rafting in Maine and a dive in the aquarium tank at the New England Aquarium in Boston. She is a Vet at the aquarium.

One addition from Oshkosh was the purchase of an evaporative cooling fan for the shop/ hangar. I hope it will make life more tolerable while working.

A couple days ago, my son (visiting from Seattle) and I decided it was time to cut the stainless steel tubing for the spar connectors. I decided to go this route rather than the flat steel bars provided in the kit.

The SS tube has to be cut and welded at the angles to match the spars. The top is easy. The top wing has a combined 7 degree sweep between the wings, no dihedral. So a 3.5 degree cut takes care of each side. The bottom is more difficult as it has each wing plugs to a carrythrough tube at 3.5 degrees back and 2.5 degrees up. Although, I can set my saw for both angles, my wife Rose and son Rob, both math wizards decided to find the angle for a single angle cut. They came up with about 4.25 degrees, or 2.13 for each part.

To help weld them properly, I made welding jigs from 2" angle iron. I plan to take the parts to the local college welding shop where they have a world class welding school and the instructor comes highly recommended. I don't have the skill or equipment to weld stainless steel.

Here are a few photos cutting an fitting the parts:

Fitting the jig angles:

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Welding the jigs:

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Rob helping to cut tubing:

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Cleaning up the ends:

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Checking the fit:

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Ready for welding:

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On another part of the build, I have sent the drawings for the engine mount to Robert at Airdrome for construction, and the cowl bowl is in the hands of Rick Bennett for instructions on welding on the skirt and fitting the separation joints. Hopefully both in a couple months.

Dale

Frank Giger
08-16-2015, 09:07 PM
Dead sexy work and it will serve you well - the blades that come with the kit are bothersome!

I forgot to ask, but are you planning on making it trailer friendly?

bookmaker
08-17-2015, 06:54 AM
Frank, yes, it will be trailer friendly. I already have the trailer base and plan to build up a cover framework like Rick and Phil's with metal frame and fabric cover. Mine will be much taller of course.:rollseyes:

I have already trailered it once - to last year's Dawn Patrol Rendezvous. That was exposed however and I don't want to do that on a continuing basis.

Dale

bookmaker
08-18-2015, 06:40 AM
Frank, I thought I posted a reply here, but must not have saved it.

Yes, it will be trailered. One thing I found about building a full size is it requires a MUCH larger trailer, especially in height. My bird will stand about 8' tall from the ground to the top of the forward cabane struts.

Dale

bookmaker
09-15-2015, 10:32 AM
Over the last couple weeks (in addition to being sick) I reworked the 4 wing panels to replace the landing/flying wire tangs with longer ones with a 90 degree twist. This was done to hopefully improve the ease of assembly and disassembly. The rework however, I had to cut all of the drag/ antidrug cables, remove the bolts with the tangs, replace the tangs, then replace all the cables.

Here is a photo of one wing panel with the new tangs.

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Now I am waiting on the welding shop to weld up the stainless steel wing connector tubes so that I can start mating the wings to the fuselage.

Dale

bookmaker
09-28-2015, 10:53 AM
Another modification to the basic kit is to use round stainless steel tubing for the wing connectors rather than the flat steel plates provided. Since the wings have sweep, and the lower wings have sweep and dihedral, the connectors must be cut at the proper angles and welded.

The upper wing is easy, just a 3 1/2 degree angle cut on each side. The lower wings are a little more difficult as each side has a 3 1/2 degree sweep and a 2 1/2 degree dihedral. I could have set this in my chop saw, but my wife being a college math professor and son a computer hardware and software engineer, they took on the vector analysis to come up with one combined angle cut. After quite a while, they came up with a combined angle of a little over 4 degrees. This now has to be divided in half since the lower wings plug into a straight carry through.

Here are photos of the cut parts and welding jigs I made up:

My son Rob helping cut the tubing. Lots of sparks

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Lower wing jig. Smiley face is to help me remember which ends mate up.:rollseyes:

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Parts in jigs - they should work!

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Since my welding sucks, and I don't even want to consider welding stainless steel, I took the parts to the local college for their welding school to help out. They have a really top notch school and instructor.

Here is the result

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And finally the test fit - YES! :) (ignore the finger in the photos)

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I have since angled the root ends of the spar tubes to fit up to the welds closer. I am now working on jigging up the carry through tubes so they will not move up and down while I remove the bolts to insert the connectors. Once it is all lined up, I will put a rivet in the carry through and connectors, then remove the assembly to match drill the connectors for the attachment bolts.

Dale

rwanttaja
09-28-2015, 11:48 AM
Over the last couple weeks (in addition to being sick) I reworked the 4 wing panels to replace the landing/flying wire tangs with longer ones with a 90 degree twist. This was done to hopefully improve the ease of assembly and disassembly. The rework however, I had to cut all of the drag/ antidrug cables, remove the bolts with the tangs, replace the tangs, then replace all the cables.
One problem with this approach is that any vibration in the wires in the vertical plane gets transmitted directly to the metal of the tangs. When the tangs are vertical instead of horizontal, the wires just "hinge" around the clevis pin of the turnbuckle or shackle. Of course, they don't handle HORIZONTAL vibration as well....

Did you clear this with the Aerodrome folks?

I suspect you'll be OK if you attach the turnbuckles at these tangs. Fly Babies have horizontal tangs for their wing bracing, and there are a few cases of fatigue failure when people have used solid bracing wires instead of the cables/turnbuckles. The turnbuckle eye acts as another "hinge" point, helping to absorb the vibration.

One Fly Baby builder using solid bracing wires chrome-plated his tangs (a no-no, it weakens the metal). The chrome plating did capture the flexing the horizontal tang was exposed to:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/safety/pplate.jpg
In the Fly Baby world, we recommend changing the flying wire attach tangs to vertical:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/safety/platea.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

bookmaker
09-28-2015, 12:25 PM
Ron, yes, this was discussed with Robert at Airdrome. I understand the concern you refer to. The opposite end of the tangs are bolted somewhat "loosely" between the spar and the compression tube. I say loosely, as the bolts are not tight enough to deform the spar tube. I think this may lessen some of the shock you refer to. And yes, there will be turnbuckles at most of the tangs.

Just curious, does the Fly Baby use flat wing bracing or round cable?

Dale

rwanttaja
09-28-2015, 12:59 PM
Ron, yes, this was discussed with Robert at Airdrome. I understand the concern you refer to. The opposite end of the tangs are bolted somewhat "loosely" between the spar and the compression tube. I say loosely, as the bolts are not tight enough to deform the spar tube. I think this may lessen some of the shock you refer to. And yes, there will be turnbuckles at most of the tangs.
If Aerodrome buys off on it, you should be fine.


Just curious, does the Fly Baby use flat wing bracing or round cable?
Per-plans Fly Babies use 1/8" standard aviation cable and AN135 turnbuckles. Some folks have used round solid tie rods or solid streamline tie rods. Several accidents have occurred due to metal fatigue (in the tangs) using these systems, so I recommend against them.

The Fly Baby monoplanes have a "harder" time than a biplane since the landing and bracing wires don't directly oppose each other, thus it's more difficult to achieve tension. More information on Fly Baby monoplane wing bracing can be found at:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/safety/bracing.htm

Of course, one option is to build your Fly Baby as a biplane....

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/pix/Gruber_Biplane.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

bookmaker
09-28-2015, 07:35 PM
Thanks for the heads up. I will definitely keep an eye on that area. Having a flying wire tang break would be ugly.

Dale

bookmaker
09-28-2015, 07:42 PM
Looking back I see I posted some photos twice. Oh, well. Going as slow as I am it's hard to keep track.:eek:

One thing I have not posted is that I now have the motor mount assembly. I sent Robert at Airdrome the dimensions earlier in the summer and received it a few weeks ago. Although I am not is a real hurry to mount the engine, (Bad juju without weight on the tail) I do plan to clean up the forward end of the fuselage gussets to start mounting the engine mount bolts and firewall shortly.

Dale

bookmaker
10-05-2015, 02:51 PM
Jigging the carry through tubes so that I can insert the connector with the bolt removed from the carry through. They need to move front and back for alignment, but can't move up and down while fitting the wing spars. I will leave one side bolted while working on the other to keep the carry throughs from moving back and forth.

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I will jig up the fuselage then the wing outer ends for mating up with the fuselage. The lower will be a hoot getting the connectors in the right position, but my wife and I did it once as a test, so it can be done.

Engine mount

5095

Dale

bookmaker
10-05-2015, 02:54 PM
Ron, I just noticed you are in Seattle. My son moved there last year and works for Oculus. We visited last Christmas. Nice place.

Dale

bookmaker
10-06-2015, 07:36 PM
Playing with the connectors

5096

Maybe just build a Penguin ???

5097

Dale

bookmaker
10-18-2015, 06:17 PM
Moved the project to my hangar where I can start attaching wing structure. I built several stands to support the fuselage and wings. Unfortunately, I mismeasured the spread to include both top and bottom wing cores and had to spilt them and add 4". Delayed progress today considerably.

Fuselage blocked up and level

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Stab and rudder mounted to check level. Looked good

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Lower wing spars leveled

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First wing attached (temporarily for photo)

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Dale

Frank Giger
10-20-2015, 09:28 AM
At first I thought this was the long way around doing the task with some over-building of rigs, but is in fact the same way I did mine (the Airdrome 7/8th scale Nieuport 11 uses the same plans as the full scale Nieuport 17 with different measurements).

Washout on the lower wings is done through rigging, so check the level on the outer compression strut later when you put on the top wing and measure for the interwing struts.

bookmaker
10-21-2015, 06:56 AM
I will not build washout in the lower wing, only the upper. It is my understanding that in a biplane, you want the lower wing to stall first.

Dale

Frank Giger
10-21-2015, 07:49 AM
Not for nothing, check the plans. Mine say no washout in upper wing, small washout in lower.

rwanttaja
10-21-2015, 08:32 AM
I will not build washout in the lower wing, only the upper. It is my understanding that in a biplane, you want the lower wing to stall first.

Doesn't seem right, to me. If you've got a biplane with staggered wings, letting the lower (aft) wing stall first moves the center of pressure FORWARD, causing a pitch-up. If the upper (forward) wing stalls first, the plane naturally pitches down towards recovery.

Ron Wanttaja

Frank Giger
10-21-2015, 08:43 AM
Ron, not if they're spaced properly from each other.

The idea is that the wing with the least lift stalls first.

rwanttaja
10-21-2015, 09:12 AM
Ron, not if they're spaced properly from each other.

The idea is that the wing with the least lift stalls first.
Well... as a Space Systems Engineer I ain't much of an aerodynamicist, but: I think it still really depends on what direction the Cp shifts after the stall. The combined CP of a biplane is between the individual CPs of the wings. Having this combined CP shift Aft when the forward wing stalls first is good; plane naturally pitches down. Forward is bad; plane pitches up. Magnitude of the lost lift doesn't really matter; what matters is there the combined Cp heads to.

On the other hand, if the two wings' angles of incidences are properly selected, you can ensure the top wing will stall first even with the washout. In this case, the washout keeps the ailerons effective closer to the stall.

Ron Wanttaja

Frank Giger
10-21-2015, 07:17 PM
I'm relying on all of the stuff being pre-designed in - and by all accounts they pretty much mush and then stall cleanly. Maybe the lower wing needs the washout to stall with the upper one, or to prevent spins?

The last time I asked Robert Baslee (Designer, builder, holder of many relevant degrees) about aeronautical stuff and design he forgot who he was talking to and had me glassy-eyed in about twenty seconds.

Of course with these high-drag, low speed aircraft one could chop throttle, push the stick forward, and put an arm out against the spin to correct it. ;)

bookmaker
10-22-2015, 09:13 AM
Ron, one thing to consider on the N17 is that the ailerons are on the upper wing only.

I see your points, but having aileron control is critical. Also, the Nieuport is actually not a Biplane, it is a Sesquiplane (sp?). The lower wing area is so small, it is considered a 1 and 1/2 winger.

I will do a little more research on biplane wing layout in any case.

I had one of my A&P,IA friends look at it last weekend asked if he saw anything that caused him problems. His only comment was the use of "non-structural" pop rivets. We discussed the load issues related to speeds, limited G factors and no aerobatics. He understood the theory of the "cheap" rivets.


Dale

Frank Giger
10-22-2015, 09:17 AM
There were more than a few eyebrows raised at my EAA meeting when the subject of pop rivets and the lack of deburring came up.

Not to derail the thread, but at the airport a fellow came by to see it and proclaimed he'd never fly "in a plane like that." I gently concurred. ;)

bookmaker
10-26-2015, 10:13 AM
I just spoke to Robert the designer and he had a very technical answer to my question about how much wash out; "Just a little";)

As for top wing, bottom wing or both, his answer was just top wing as the bottom wing was too small to really make an issue.

We also discussed the potential issue of the cable tangs. He indicated that due to the way they are mounted, and the loads involved, he did not believe there is a problem with them in horizontal attachment at the cable ends.

I think I will continue as I planned.

Ron, thanks for keeping an eye on my project and keeping me from doing something really dumb.

Dale

rwanttaja
10-26-2015, 11:52 AM
I just spoke to Robert the designer and he had a very technical answer to my question about how much wash out; "Just a little";)

As for top wing, bottom wing or both, his answer was just top wing as the bottom wing was too small to really make an issue.

We also discussed the potential issue of the cable tangs. He indicated that due to the way they are mounted, and the loads involved, he did not believe there is a problem with them in horizontal attachment at the cable ends.

I think I will continue as I planned.
Concur. Happy that the designer has considered these factors. Sorry to have inserted a note of skepticism, glad it came out OK. If I didn't care, I wouldn't whine. :-)


Ron Wanttaja

bookmaker
10-27-2015, 07:17 AM
Ron, if you happen to run into a young man (late 30s) named Robert Cavin, that is my son. He is an engineer with Oculus.

Dale

bookmaker
11-01-2015, 08:11 PM
Moving ahead slowly

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We have a biplane - sort of:cool::

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Dale

Frank Giger
11-02-2015, 09:31 AM
Needs more water on the floor!

:)

Seriously, great work. You should find rigging a lot easier with a solid jig like that.

bookmaker
11-02-2015, 04:29 PM
It WAS there. The photo was taken well after the rain quit.:rollseyes:

That's why the feet on the stands are pressure treated plywood and the firewall stand is sitting on galvanized lag screws. If you look closely, the saw horses in the back ground have the lower legs painted with exterior porch paint.

As for the rigging, I still have several more items to fabricate before any cables can be fit. Forward cabanes, V struts, attachments for all struts, forward cabane cross cables, etc, etc. But, it's getting there.

I don't complain as I don't want them to do TOO much to stop the water - and then raise the rent.

Dale

Frank Giger
11-03-2015, 10:03 AM
A man after my own heart - I asked what hanger is the "least desirable" when I rented mine. Turns out the way it faces the rain tends to come into the hangar and make puddles - much smaller than yours! - but because of this the rent is substantially cheaper.

But it's got the 'letric and is more than enough room for my little plane.

bookmaker
11-12-2015, 08:03 AM
A little more progress. Forward cabanes cut and fit (with a slight trimming needed).

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5146

Port lower wing fit.

5147

I "adjusted" the wing structure positions and got them squared to within 1/16" tips to tail post. I need to make some spacers for the lower wing attachments to hold them in position. The upper wing will be held by the cross bracing between the front cabanes.

I drew out a plan for the forward upper cabane attachment and will transfer that to 16ga steel sheet. These will wrap around the compression strut and extend down the side of the cabane far enough a bolt will be below the wing covering.

Dale

Greg Eberhart
11-13-2015, 10:10 PM
Hello Dale, we meet in gardener about 5 years ago. I kind of got the bug like you did but had to hold off building. I do have some questions and was wondering if we could talk email to email since I live in California. If so my name is Greg Eberhart my email is gelaq@Verizon.net. Question pertain, to land gears, bending process, the use of stainless. thanks

bookmaker
11-15-2015, 07:26 AM
Greg, will do.

n17flyer
11-18-2015, 10:52 AM
Great seeing another AA N17 being built!5163

bookmaker
11-18-2015, 11:54 AM
Fine looking Nieuport. I received your e-mail and replied. Thanks for the offer of advice. I will surely take you up on it.

Dale

Frank Giger
11-18-2015, 10:09 PM
Oh, that's a gem of an airplane!

bookmaker
11-25-2015, 08:15 AM
Santa came a little early - sort of.

I have been trying to decide how to connect the flying wires that are removable from the wings without turn buckles on both ends. (Note: the turnbuckles on the originals are on the lower ends of all wing wires only.)

I looked at AN115 shackles, turnbuckles on both ends, making my own links to convert from the hole in the tang to a fork arrangement, custom made cables with inline swagged forks on the upper ends, or just suck it up and leave the cables attached to the wings. The shackles are pretty large and defeats the purpose that I twisted the tangs, I don't want to leave the cables attached, the custom cables are kind of expensive,, and making my own is just adding more time.

Then Santa dropped in. My sweet wife said she would buy me the custom flying wires for Christmas:cool: Problem solved. I contacted Aircraft Spruce and they will add the ends to the cable I already have (saves about $80), so last night I cut the cables, leaving enough for me to attach turnbuckles on the other end and they are off to A/S today.

5166

You just have to love a good hearted woman - who likes airplanes.

bookmaker
11-30-2015, 09:19 PM
Last weekend, after digesting way too much turkey, ham and pie, I started on the V struts. I initially mitered the forward aluminum tubes provided in the kit although I always intended to make the final struts out of wood.

With the front struts where I could put them in general position, I attached the lower V strut attachment plates with clecos.

5264

5265

I did not like the kit design for the rear strut attachment as it required it to angle forward a fair bit, but the original was vertical. I determined that the forward edge of the rear strut should mount under the rear spar rather the entire strut mounting in front of it. Also, I went to the hardware store to get some 1x6 pine to make proof of concept struts. Here it the initial layout.'

5266

At this point, I have to take them to the hangar and final fit them and mark the actual cut line where they attach to each other.

By moving the rear strut under the spar, it results in issues on how to attach it. I have decided to make fittings that include straps that go around the spar and the ends bolt together along the lines of adel clamps. Just one more thing to work out.:rollseyes:

Dale

bookmaker
12-08-2015, 09:39 PM
Santa in the brown truck (UPS) brought me a present today - forks swagged on my flying wire cables.

I now have flying wires - sort of. Sorry, they are kind of hard to see.

5269

5270

bookmaker
01-06-2016, 11:51 AM
Not a lot updated over the holidays, but I have "manufactured" the upper retaining straps for the cabane struts.

These are from 16ga steel and gave me a fit cutting them out. I finally fell back on my air conditioning sheet metal hand tools, the grinder and sander.

I'll post photos later.


5284

For some reason, the system cannot find the other photos of making these straps, so you only get this one.:rollseyes:

bookmaker
01-06-2016, 01:59 PM
Here we go.

5285

5286

5287

Frank Giger
01-06-2016, 11:57 PM
And this is how much an aircraft is the builder versus the "kit" provided.*

My N11 is really a 7/8ths scale version of his N17, to the point that mine had all the N17 measurements crossed out and new ones for me written on top of them in the plans - and Dale's plane is way past basic function and into art.

I don't know if Dale mentioned it in this thread, but at every step he's talked to Robert Baslee, designer of the plane, about the changes and improvements on the basic plans....he's being very, very smart about deviations.

* "Kit" in the Airdrome Airplane world means a big crate with a stapled set of plans and all the items on the material list in it (but not the material list itself - that's a State Secret). The gussets are pre-cut, but every tube has to be cut down, bent, and coped. Every hole has to be drilled. It's a mixture between pure plans built and kits as we think of them today (CNC cut, pre-drilled, etc).

bookmaker
02-02-2016, 01:10 PM
Finally, coming out of the closet - er - the crate.

Last evening my wife and I removed my Rotec R2800 from its crate and mounted it to the motor mount.

5333

5334

5335

The frame is not ready for the engine yet, but I needed to attach it to the mount so I can get measurements for the cowling.
That is being made for me and the builder needs to know the length and where the holes need to be.

Dale

bookmaker
02-22-2016, 03:08 PM
Latest tiny footsteps. Like all of the other areas of this build, I have to divert from the plans.

The entire cabane structure has been modified to, in my opinion, look more original. That includes fabricating forward cabane sockets and eliminating the added fore and aft cables that are needed if built by the plan.

I also changed the upper forward cabane brackets so the bolt that will be removed when removing the wing is outside the wing, rather than inside per the plan.

The final assault on the AA plan in this area is to reposition the forward cabane cross cables so that they will not cross right in the middle of a center mounted machine gun. This meant designing some form of connection point to move the cross.

Here is the result and the attaching points:

5352

5353

5354

5355

This arrangement will place the crossing brackets and lower ends of the turnbuckles just below for forward fuselage decking.

Dale

bookmaker
03-27-2016, 05:08 PM
Started forming ribs;

Bending fixture:

5416

Using it:

5417

Result:

5418

Reshaped airfoil:

5419

Coping Jig:

5420

In the drill press:

5421

Result:

5422

I formed and coped the leading edge end of all ribs for the top wing. I still need to clean the coped ends and cope the trailing edge ends.

Slow, but moving.

Dale

bookmaker
04-16-2016, 06:42 PM
More slow progress. Fishmouth trailing edge or ribs.

5452

5448

Attach brackets for spar attachment:

5449

5450

5451

Only 19 more upper wing ribs to format.

bookmaker
04-17-2016, 08:01 AM
After getting this first rib "completed", my engineering supervisor (wifey) said I should check it on the actual wing spars just to be sure everything fit. That part of the project is at the airport. I intended to do some pattern practice with my Citabria this morning, so I took the rib with me.

Good thing. The space between the brackets is just a smidge tight and would cause a lot of grief mounting the ribs. I tried at various locations and the fit was about the same at each spot. I will open it up about 3/32" and try a second one before doing all. Also, I want to shoot some primer on the parts that will mate before I rivet the rest of them.

Dale

bookmaker
04-20-2016, 07:49 AM
Still creeping along. Since I want to make left and right ribs (rather than all the same), I needed to make a mirror image set up jig. I got that done last evening. I took an upper and lower rib part that fit nicely in the first jig, transferred the measurements to a second board, then lined up both ends of the rib parts and set the blocks. It came out nice.

One critical aspect is the dimension between the leading edge tube and spar. I set them at close tolerance on the first jig, so the second side had to be exact. I spent some time with a sliding set of metal sticks to assure the distances were equal.

5456

I will shoot some self etching primer on the ribs where the brackets attach, then start riveting on the brackets.

Dale

Frank Giger
04-20-2016, 02:53 PM
I'm always impressed at how clean your jigs are.

Not just in the engineering sense of the word - they've only got what is necessary and aren't over-built, but in the normal sense of the word as well. All my jigs were covered in scribbles, shavings, random dirt, etc.

bookmaker
04-20-2016, 05:15 PM
I have a good eraser.;)

If you ever are planning a trip below the AL/FL line, let me know, I'll take you on a tour. Maybe, even lunch or dinner. You know Panama City is only about an hour from here.

Dale

bookmaker
06-04-2016, 06:57 PM
Last weekend Rose and I traveled to Thompson, OH to pick up the cowl that Rick Bennett was fabricating for me. Along the way we visited Frank Giger and Russ Turner. Both great guys and we had nice visits.

Here are a few photos of the cowl. (Rick left most of the smoothing of the outer welding seam to me:rollseyes:)

5566

5567

5568

A couple days after we returned this arrived.

5569

Dale

bookmaker
07-10-2016, 11:06 AM
June was a busy month and other than the trip to pick up the cowl, no work on the N17. I have since completed the bracket attachments on the upper wing ribs. I then moved on to forming the lower wing ribs.

Before starting on the lower ribs, I had to test the fit of my propeller to the engine hub. Nice.

5620

Then on to the lower ribs. Since I changed the profile (thinner) I had to fiddle with the bend of the upper ribs as I could not find a single bend on the fixture that would do what I wanted. A little tweaking of each part was required. But they came out nice.

5621

Then to cut the shape on the nose.

5622

5625

5623

Then I built the fixtures for attaching the brackets that tie the ribs to the spars. At this point I have not cut the tails of the ribs.

5624

Today is office work day again, so little or no work today.

I need to set up the drill fixture to cut the tails to fit 1/2" tubing. Also I have not yet made the L brackets, so I have to do that next. Then I will attach one set of brackets and check it against the actual spars for correct spacing before attaching the remainder.

Dale

bookmaker
07-19-2016, 07:39 PM
Took a break from trimming the ends and brought one lower wing structure from the hangar to set the rib spacing.

5643

Also laid out the tip lines per the Rosendaal drawings.

5644

I was having problems with drilling the arc in the tail of the rib. 1/2" step drill through 1/2" tubing wanted to catch just as the cut finished. This evening, I changed the blocks to oak and made them snug. I used a step bit with about 10 steps (max 1/2") at high speed in the drill press. Finally, I made the final cut through real slow and stopped the bit before I let it back up. Worked real good.

5645

5646

Phew, the north Florida heat and humidity are killers.

Dale

Frank Giger
07-20-2016, 11:23 PM
Very nice.

So, is the shop apron to catch the sweat coming off your glasses or the face shield?

(building airplanes Down South is so much fun in the summertime!)

bookmaker
08-14-2016, 11:43 AM
The temperature and humidity here in the Florida have been stifling the last couple weeks, but I have braved a little time in the shop.

All of the lower wing rib sets have been fit with the spar attachment brackets:

5691

Trial fit:

5694

I made one set with tabs pointing left and one set with tabs pointing right. All are clearing obstacles except the one just outside the inner compression strut. It had to be trimmed:

5692

Then it was on to forming the wing tip bows:

5697


Mirror image for the other tip:

5695

Lovely assistant holding tips for comparison:

5696

Next is to form the rear spar tips to a taper down to the 1/2" tip bow.

Dale

bookmaker
08-14-2016, 04:16 PM
After a lot of sweat, moaning, groaning and some pain, one wing tip is basically attached.

5698

5699

5700

Here is the end result of raking my arm against the pointy end of a 1/2" drill bit. 3" long by about 1/8" deep slice. Nice sharp drill bit. I don't recommend trying this.:rollseyes:

5701

Dale

eiclan
08-22-2016, 05:22 PM
After a lot of sweat, moaning, groaning and some pain, one wing tip is basically attached.

5698

5699

5700

Here is the end result of raking my arm against the pointy end of a 1/2" drill bit. 3" long by about 1/8" deep slice. Nice sharp drill bit. I don't recommend tan inspector .:rollseyes:

5701

Dale
In relation to the heat; my family lives in Perth Western Australia and about 15 years ago my brother finished a Glasair and you can imagine the heat in the middle summer here,in an aluminium shed. The civil aviation authority gave him a temp range inside of which he could work the fiberglass. So took him 9 years.He was lucky in that he had an inspector living next door. Slick machine but. Cheers Ross

bookmaker
08-23-2016, 05:03 AM
G'day eiclan. Thanks for looking in. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was.

At least working with the aluminum, heat is not a concern with the material. It is not so much the actual temperature here, it is the humidity level at the temperature. It is just stifling.

ps: I've never been to Australia, but it's on my bucket list.

Dale

eiclan
08-24-2016, 09:53 AM
Pop over mate ,nice weather with 300 sunny days,on average, a year. Bring the aerplane you will love it. Cheers Ross

bookmaker
08-28-2016, 04:32 PM
I sent the material and drawing to my dad to machine the aileron blocks.

5741

He found it best to cut the holes by turning on his lathe.

Photos of progress:

5742

5743

5744

bookmaker
08-28-2016, 04:39 PM
Meanwhile, Rose and I started attaching ribs on the lower right wing:

5745

5746

The rear plates were not attached top the rear spar until I was comfortable with the straightness of the trailing edge. So far about 1/2 of the ribs have been attached to the rear spar.

5747

5748

I need to fabricate the plates to attach the trailing edge to the tails of the ribs.

Dale

bookmaker
08-31-2016, 09:25 AM
Latest photo of progress on the hinge blocks.

5763

bookmaker
09-08-2016, 08:31 PM
I received the hinges from my dad.

5783

5784

5785

In case you are wondering, they weigh about 8.5 ounces each.

The hole in the cutout will be threaded for a bolt that will be run through the rear spar.

Dale

bookmaker
09-15-2016, 07:31 AM
First wing pretty much done with exception of root rib and leading edge sheet:

(now it won't fit in my rigging jig:rollseyes:)

5787

Second lower wing coming along:

5788

Dale

bookmaker
09-20-2016, 12:37 PM
Forming spar end for tip bow

5795

5796

5797

5798

Getting help from Rosie the Riveter

5799

Both lower wings framed up pending leading edge sheeting

5800

bookmaker
09-20-2016, 12:41 PM
Modifications were required to the rigging frames after trailing edges were added:

5801

5802

After several hours fiddling, the first of 6 leading edge sheets is attached.

5803

Dale

Frank Giger
09-22-2016, 04:39 PM
I see you went with the kit sheets of 6161-T6....and I am humbled by your work.

I made a complete mess of them and just bit the bullet and bought some T6 leading edge material....and thankfully my covering job concealed most of my buggering it up.

bookmaker
09-22-2016, 07:38 PM
I have to admit that when I actually worked for a living, I installed air conditioning so I have a fair bit of experience with sheet metal. However, that was steel and did not usually require the finesse the thin aluminum does.

bookmaker
10-25-2016, 08:03 PM
Due to problems forming the sheet around the leading edge, and not being pleased with the sheet anyway, I scrapped that plan and started with false ribs.

5838

My son Rob was in for a few days and helped out forming, drilling and riveting.

5839

We got most of the false ribs on one lower wing.

5840

Unfortunately, due to drilling 20 holes in the leading edge of the other lower wing, I have to change out that leading edge tube. A major rebuild of the wing structure.:rollseyes:

Dale

Frank Giger
10-25-2016, 08:23 PM
Ooooh, she's starting to really come together!

bookmaker
11-21-2016, 08:36 PM
I made the trip to Aircraft Spruce to pick up the 11' tube for the replacement leading edge, then removed the one I drilled full of holes.

5894

I needed to match the angle of the root cut for dihedral and sweep, so I made a pattern of the old tube.

5895

After marking the new tube, I cut it with an angle grinder with cut off wheel.

5896

With the root end at the correct angle, I carefully measured the location for the compression strut bolt holes and rivet locations for the rib attach plates.


All fit together with clecos.

5897

5898

I took it apart, primed the areas where parts connect then reassembled and riveted it together. This evening I reattached the internal cables.

5899

Now I am officially where I was with this wing a month ago.:rollseyes:

Time to start forming false ribs.

Dale

martymayes
11-21-2016, 10:31 PM
What are the advantages/disadvantages of the sheet leading edge vs. false ribs?

bookmaker
11-22-2016, 07:50 AM
The kit was designed for sheeting. Mostly for simplicity I assume to keep from cutting, bending and finishing an additional 60+ short ribs. Both are for the purpose of helping ramp up the air over the leading edge of the wing. Without one or the other, the fabric sags between the main ribs.

I started with the sheeting that was provided, but was unable to get the fit I wanted. Partly due to the grain running perpendicular to the roll. Leading edge sheeting sold by Aircraft Spruce has the grain running lengthwise, but by the time I figured that out, I had decided to go with the original type false ribs.

The sheeting probably adds a little torsional strength, but it is not necessary in this build as there are other compensating factors.

By the way, the planes Robert built for the movie FlyBoys used the false ribs rather than the sheeting.

Dale

martymayes
11-22-2016, 09:10 AM
The kit was designed for sheeting. Mostly for simplicity I assume to keep from cutting, bending and finishing an additional 60+ short ribs. Both are for the purpose of helping ramp up the air over the leading edge of the wing. Without one or the other, the fabric sags between the main ribs.

By the way, the planes Robert built for the movie FlyBoys used the false ribs rather than the sheeting.

Yes, the false ribs look more correct for that period. History books show most planes of that era had "sagging" fabric between ribs. Which one do you think is lighter or heavier?

bookmaker
11-22-2016, 10:00 AM
The false ribs are probably a little heavier, but not by much. My original plan was to go the "easy" route with the aluminum sheet, then run a couple layers of tape up the sheet to fake the false ribs. But, messing with the aluminum sheet was becoming more work than making the ribs.
The sheet would have ended about 1/4" below the centerline if the front of the LE. I just could not get it to lay perfectly flat between the rivets at 4" apart. Some other builders I have talked to just live with it, but it bothered me. SOOOOO!

The false ribs definitely look better. I now need to make 15 for this wing panel. There will be about 36 for the upper wings. :rollseyes:

bookmaker
12-02-2016, 05:06 AM
While the turkey was in the smoker on Thanksgiving, Rose and I formed and trimmed the nose ends of the false ribs for the other lower wing.

5913

Last evening, we got some time to work on the project and formed the bend in the aft end of the false ribs, cut them to length and mounted them in the wing.

5914

Both lower wings basically complete, stored for next project

5915

5916

Dale

bookmaker
12-05-2016, 10:24 AM
The lower wings were hauled out to the hangar and mounted for test fitting of the wing with the new leading edge and to see how they look with the false ribs. :):thumbsup:

5917

While at the hangar, we removed the upper wing cores and brought them home to start attaching ribs, ailerons, etc.

Moving slow, but moving.

Dale

bookmaker
12-05-2016, 11:13 PM
This evening work started on attaching ribs to the upper wing cores.

5920

5921

Dale

bookmaker
12-08-2016, 07:54 AM
The other night I mounted the aileron hinges and torque tube.

5924

5925

Last night, I fit the nose pieces to both aileron wishbones and got one mounted to the torque tube. Only about 4 hours work measuring, lining up, remeasuring, drilling, etc.

5922

5923

Dale

bookmaker
12-09-2016, 01:09 PM
Adding the main trailing edge.

5930

Dale

bookmaker
12-15-2016, 10:09 PM
Started on the aileron

5946

5947

Also started sorting out ribs in the root area, the box around the aileron wishbone and cockpit cut out bow.

5948

5949

Dale

bookmaker
01-05-2017, 12:31 PM
Last weekend I started forming the aileron ribs. I started with the middle rib since the metal on hand was not long enough for the longer 2 ribs. I start with the longer ones so I have a chance of salvaging the piece for a shorter one if I screw up the measurement.:rollseyes:

6014

6015

6016

I cut the ribs for both wings while cutting, but the other side is still pending. Hopefully the metal for the longer ribs will arrive by the weekend.

Dale

bookmaker
01-12-2017, 10:40 AM
Continued working on the right aileron. All ribs are formed and slid on the torque tube. The inner rib was lined up with the control wishbone and riveted in place. The remaining ribs need to be lined up with the inner rib, then riveted in place.

6050

6051

I used extra aileron attachment "top hats" as stops to set the position of the torque tube. Here is the one inside the outer hinge. I set the end play movement to about 1/32" You can't see it in the photo, but the delren bushing in the hinge has a flange the stop rides against. No metal to metal.

6052

Once the ribs are lined up and riveted to the torque tube, then it is on to forming the wing tip bow, then forming the ends of the spars to meet and hold the wing and aileron tip bows.

Dale

bookmaker
02-07-2017, 09:47 AM
Aileron ribs have been permanently attached and work on the tip begun.

First bend of tip bows. 3/4" aluminum tubing.

6120

Forming mid-airfoil curve using the TLAR method of alignment.

6121

Not too bad!

6122

Drilling for the attachment to the leading edge.

6123

Inletting the spar for the bow.

6124

After annealing, the tip was squeezed to taper to the tip bow.

6125

The aileron spar was subjected to the same treatment and here is the test fit.

6126

6127

Moving slow, but moving.

Dale

bookmaker
02-16-2017, 08:45 PM
I was unable to post photos for a while, but that seems to have cleared up.

I have completed attaching the wing tip, aileron and main trailing edge.

6141

6142

6140

6143

I have started the work on the root end, pilot cut out and box around the aileron control wishbone.

6144

6145

But this week has been pretty busy with work and treating my wife to Valentines dinner.

6146

6147

Dale

bookmaker
02-19-2017, 04:19 PM
Progress on the root area.

6150

6151

Before fixing these parts, I needed to duplicate the pilot cut out bows.

6152

I used these hi-tec forms (including the time) to make the bends.

bookmaker
04-18-2017, 01:13 PM
The day after the last photos were posted, I got a call from my father that he was in the emergency room in Miami. He had just turned 86 a few days before. I caught the next plane down. Unfortunately, he contracted pneumonia and that complicated heart and lung problems he already had and he passed away March 7. I was out of town for little over 3 weeks. He was a great help to me and a great friend. I miss him terribly.

6281

Add that to the fact I am a CPA and up to my ears in tax returns, not much got accomplished on my project. That was until last weekend.

After listing the remaining projects to complete the upper right wing (a longer list than I hoped), it was decided to start on the false ribs. There are 19 per wing and end up about 9” long. Bending that short of a tube is difficult, so we started out with 16” blanks. That was still tough, but a lever bar helped. Last Sunday we attached all but one false rib to the upper right wing.

6280

6282

6283

6284

6285

6286

Moving slow, but moving

Dale

Frank Giger
04-18-2017, 03:00 PM
Fantastic work, as always, and a great demonstration on how the basic Baslee kit can be turned into something really special.

bookmaker
04-18-2017, 08:19 PM
Thanks Frank. I am trying to make it a nice one.

Tonight I added wing tip braces to prevent bowing by the covering.

6288

bookmaker
04-24-2017, 03:18 PM
Last weekend, we flipped the wing and started on the lower pilot cutout bow, wishbone opening framing and surround and root rib area.

As usual, what Robert Baslee can do in 10 minutes took me several hours. Getting the angle cuts on the mating tubes took me forever with a file and sandpaper.

6312

We did manage to get the framing and surround for the wishbone complete and moved ahead on the root.

6313

However, since there is a plate that attaches the spar to the rear cabane tower, the lower cutout bow has to be cut off about 6" from the root (red line on spar in photo). This generates a lot of head scratching, but I have decided to sheet the rear 6" or so from the root rib to the second rib with thin aluminum leaving a permanent opening for the plate and access to the center spar nuts. For access to the front spar nuts, I will embed an aluminum surround in the covering, then attach a small aluminum access door.

By the way, the aluminum angle at the root in the photo is just for alignment and not part of the wing.

Dale

Frank Giger
04-24-2017, 09:41 PM
Hey, neat - you made two bows for that spot, a top and a bottom.

I just went with the one.

bookmaker
04-25-2017, 05:25 AM
Correct Frank. The original had a flat face on the cut out. I am doing my best to replicate it.

bookmaker
05-03-2017, 05:01 AM
I have finally completed engineering and assembly of the root end of the right upper wing.

6326

6327

6328

6329

Dale

Frank Giger
05-04-2017, 11:39 AM
I'm continuously impressed on how you're elevating the basic plans and "kit" to something really special.

Refresh my memory - are you going to have the center section cut out and mounted permanently with the cabanes and slide these wings into it, or the standard two big pieces to slide together?

bookmaker
05-04-2017, 02:15 PM
Frank, if I understand your question, the wing is split in the center. The rear spar slips between the two plates on top of the rear cabane A frame.

That's why the face plate on the pilot cutout does not go all the way to the end of the spar.

Here is a photo of the sheet I added to the bottom, for access to the nuts and for the cabane mount plate to fit.

6331

The whole section not covered by aluminum in this area will remain open.

The "design" I came up with will not require a large panel to be removable to access the centerline bolts. Just this opening in the back, and small access doors in the covering for access to the front nuts.

Did this answer your question?

Dale

bookmaker
05-04-2017, 02:26 PM
Here is a photo of the spar assemblies on the cabanes.

6332

Frank Giger
05-04-2017, 07:08 PM
Actually, you answered the question without quite understanding it!

Jeff's Nieuport 17 actually has a permanent section where the center section always stays on, and he has a sort of splinting system to slide the wings onto them.

Yours is like mine in that's it's two wings that meet in the middle all by themselves.

bookmaker
05-07-2017, 07:59 PM
We were supposed to be out of town this weekend, but plans got changed. Today Rose and I started on the aileron leading edge.

6340

6341

I made a test piece for the wing aileron cutout. Looks pretty good.

6342

Dale

bookmaker
08-01-2017, 12:08 PM
Finished the aileron tip leading edge and riveted it in place. This little piece is a real pain.

6553

6554

Frank Giger
08-02-2017, 10:45 AM
It's official. I hate you.

My leading edges never, ever came out that clean.

:)

bookmaker
08-06-2017, 04:31 PM
Finished the right aileron leading edge today. Lots of fiddling with just a few parts trying to get it to look decent.

6585

There is about 5/16" gap between the spar and the aileron leading edge. The compression strut bolt just cleared, but covering would interfere, so I cut a slot for the bolt head.

6586

I also stole an idea from the Culpeper N28 guys and added flanges around the aileron hinge slots to attach covering. I will likely add a brace at the rear of the outer flanges for support. The inner flanges are supported by the rib and I think OK as is.

6587

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Now on to the wing trailing edge seal.:rollseyes:

Dale

bookmaker
08-10-2017, 04:56 AM
Trailing edge fairings started. I decided to go with 2 piece top and bottom.

6613

6614

6615

bookmaker
08-11-2017, 09:23 AM
The top side aileron gap fairing is complete (right wing)

6618

6619

6620

I still have to figure out how to attach a mounting bracket for the upper rear V strut to the 2" round rear spar. There is a lot going on there with the through bolt for the compression strut, anti drag cable fitting and landing wire fitting. Plus I am not keen on drilling any more holes in the spar at this location.

The kit is designed to attach the strut to the compression strut, but this causes the strut to angle forward. It should be vertical and attach to the rear spar.

Any thoughts?

Dale

Frank Giger
08-15-2017, 12:13 AM
My plans are different here, if you're referring to the inter-wing struts (V Strut).

The front and rear strut gussets go around the compression tubes, a close to the spar as can be allowed. This lets one get a grip into the cups that hold the compression tubes. Yes, there's a lot going on, and one has to plan on where the bolt goes in versus the nut when assembling it, but it's not difficult with the wing uncovered.

bookmaker
08-15-2017, 07:32 AM
Frank, my plans are the same as yours. However, attaching the rear V strut to the compression strut causes to lean forward at the top. Is should be vertical.

The strut should be mounted under the rear spare to get it in proper position. That's what I am working on. Had I come to the conclusion to tie the mount to the rear compression strut bolt and under the spar in the beginning, it would be a simple matter to add it as the wing core is being constructed. But now is a totally different story.

Since my last post here, I have figured out the solution. Cut the compression strut in 2 to allow it to be slid off the plugs at the ends. It isn't riveted at the ends yet. Then the rear bolt can be removed, V strut bracket attached and bolt reinserted.

This results in the compression strut needing to be shorter by the thickness of the added bracket - ~.065 planned, the compression strut sleeved to "repair" the splice and the anti drag cable that attaches to that bolt, shortened. I called Robert Baslee about this whole process and he was good with the plan with a couple of suggestions including adding a turn buckle to the anti drag cable to take care of the length difference. I could just replace that cable and tension it as was originally done, but I have some extra turnbuckles.

I am in the process of designing the V strut bracket. I will post photos when I get that done.

Dale

Frank Giger
08-15-2017, 10:36 AM
So Robert's "try to get it as vertical as you can, but it might be a little off, that's okay" standards of quality were not to your liking? :D

The funny thing is mine looked to be more than a little off of vertical until I put her in rig; then they went pretty much dead on the money.

I think this is why he makes and installs them with the wings in situ with wires strung - "show about two or three threads on the turnbuckles" - as then he can eyeball them.

Before getting too involved, it might be worth a shot to mount the top and bottom wings with some wires to see where the inter-plane struts actually line up.

Okay, so you've been to Gardner and see how wings can be hung with a crew of folks that either have done it a bunch of times or have helpers that can take directions and understand the concept. This is how one does it by themselves:

You'll need two long and two shortish ropes or straps, a way to suspend them about four inches above your head at the ends of the upper wing,* a step ladder, six or eight little spirit levels, some double sided tape, a table or something to lift the tail to flying position, and a non-rolling standard chair.

For the back yard I built two rectangular boxes out of 2x4's (the ones I put under my MDF sheets over sawhorses for my build tables); in the hangar I used roof beams.

Back the plane away from the wings, but pointing at them. Put the top wings together, including bolts in the rear. If you haven't drilled the rear cabane yet, a bolt to each side of it in either the blade or insert you made.

Lift one end of the wing and put it on the back of the chair to get it off the ground. Make a loop on one end of the rope so you can cinch it up as you raise, and put around the wing about three feet in, loose. Put the rope on the down end, too.

Lift the down end side of the wing to about chest high. The wing is going to sag a little in the middle. Don't stress, it's okay; we're not going to have it that way for long. Cinch the rope right here.

Go to the chair end. Lift it about chin high. Cinch the rope. Try and keep the wing as level as you can.

Now go to the other end and lift it about arm high, and cinch. If you're like me, this means by the time you tie your knot it's much lower than that. Do the same on the other end.

Walking it up like that keeps the sway in the middle from looking crazy and making you pop sweat regardless of ambient temperature.

Roll (or carry) the airplane under the center of the wing, lifting the tail to about flying position. Here's the fun part. Front cabanes first. I found it was easier to maneuver the plane around to them than worry about the wing.

When it's about in the right spot, put something under the tail to get it into flying position. I used an old folding card table. Chock the wheels!

The longeron midway through the cockpit is a good datum spot for level along the length of the plane. Put 2x4 scrap or stuff under the tailwheel until it's level.

Since you're not using a VW, you may not have a nice bar across the front between the top two longerons at the firewall. A nice piece of straight lumber will do the trick on top of the mounting bolts. Put a couple of those little levels on the board. This is your datum point for horizontal level. If you haven't installed bungees or gear yet, thin bits of plywood under one side or the other under the gear works good. If you have the wheels installed, letting out some air on one of the tires works well.

Have a good selection of profanity ready in your mind, as now you need to lower the wing so that the front cabanes meet the compression strut. You're going to be gently lowering the wing tip ropes, trying to put a two inch cabane onto a two inch compression tube. It helps if the front of the wing is a little lower than the back. I know you have the sexy improved cabanes, but this part is kind of like a carnival side show game no matter what the rig is, at least for the first time. Time number four and it's a no brainer. This is also where that step ladder comes into play, as it's easier to hold and adjust the ropes if you're up a step or two.

One the front is in, lower the ropes a tad so that the rear spar is on the cabane, if it isn't already.

If the wing isn't perpendicular to the fuselage, move the fuselage to the wing. You want the wing to be floating as naturally as possible, with no forced twisting between the cabanes and the ropes. It took me a minute or two to realize that if things weren't lining up right, moving the tail left or right was the solution. If you move the fuselage at all, check level.

Remember that double sided tape? Put some on the rest of your little Harbor Freight levels, and stick them to the upper wing at the outer compression strut and along the front spar. Or, since you've got the leading edge on, the rear spar. doesn't matter. You could just walk around checking, but I found it was tedious this way and very helpful to have them in place.

Dick around with the ropes until the top wing is level all the way across.

Tada!

Take one of your shorter ropes, make a loop around it, feed the free end through it around the outer compression strut on the top wing, letting it hang free. This will be our interplane strut stand in for the moment.

Mount the lower wing. Another state fair side show challenge getting both spars to go over the mounts on the fuselage, but we had a large selections of profanities prepared for a reason! Rope goes under the lower wing's compression strut, back up over the upper wing compression strut, looped and tied to where it makes a V.

You may need to put the back of the chair under the lower wing tip to hold it somewhat in place as you tie the rope.

Do the same for the other side.

Now the wings are in position for inter-plane strut fitting and, if you haven't done so, cabane drilling in a hands-free manner. Check all the levels, natually.

* While my airplane is 7/8ths scale to yours, I'm also 7/8ths scale as well, getting ramped up to your height comparatively. :)

bookmaker
08-15-2017, 01:27 PM
My rigging jigs. The fuselage is in the proper position for the spars to be level. It is level left and right.

Once I get the upper wings back mounted, I can take final measurements for the V struts. When those are mounted, the cables can be attached and adjusted.

6630

6631

bookmaker
08-15-2017, 01:30 PM
As for the rear V strut, you are right "close enough" didn't cut it for me. The rear strut on the full size AA N17 comes out with a significant angle forward if built by the plan.

Dale

bookmaker
11-08-2017, 07:55 AM
I hit a significant milestone the other day. At least to me. The right upper wing is structurally complete.

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6762

Now to trace the pattern with felt tip so I can flip it and assemble the left wing. Goal have it don by Jan 1. My son is coming in for several days at Christmas and wants to help.

Frank Giger
11-10-2017, 08:14 AM
You could just built it on the same stencils, and flip the piece when attaching the ribs. The only difference is which way the ribs go...curvy bit going up instead of down.

;)

That's why my spars have "TOP" and "BOTTOM" labels on various sections of them.

bookmaker
11-13-2017, 09:29 AM
The second wing is on the table.:)

I am using experience from the first wing to hopefully do things in a better more efficient order for this wing. The first was to make triangular jig blocks that are tall enough to allow the spars to rest on 2x4's. Making them triangular gives a good thickness for screws, but not too thick. The spars need to be elevated to clear the lower ribs and tangs.

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6771

I also measured out the centerline for the aileron torque tube hinges. I then drilled the spar for the hinge bolts. Just need to tap threads in the hinge blocks.

I am going to try to get a lot of these peripheral items measured and at least temporarily mounted before adding the ribs permanently.

Dale

bookmaker
11-18-2017, 10:24 AM
Inching along on the left wing. The aileron torque tube hinges are now attached to the spar. The outer two can be removes to allow the aileron and torque tube to be removed. I also mounted the aileron control wishbone to the inner end of the torque tube.

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6776

Next step will be to cut the outer ends of the leading edge tube and spar to their final lengths.

Dale

bookmaker
11-22-2017, 08:36 AM
I don't have much time to work on the Neupie this week, but I had to see if there was a wing in there somewhere.

6781

Yep, there is one.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Dale

Floatsflyer
11-22-2017, 10:57 AM
Is that an Austin Healy I partially see? Looks like it except for the fenders.

bookmaker
11-22-2017, 11:57 AM
Hi Floats. It is an AH 3000 "replica" that I built from a kit in the early 90's. The body is glass, steel tube frame and Chevy 350 for power. It has a bad leak from the transmission and a blown out header gasket. I need to spend about a week working on it to get it back on good order.

Floatsflyer
11-22-2017, 03:05 PM
Sweet! I love classic roadsters as much as I love airplanes. Hope you get it running well and back on the road soon.

bookmaker
11-22-2017, 06:43 PM
Yes, it definitely needs to be on the road. Really turns heads. Thanks for the interest.

bookmaker
11-29-2017, 10:43 AM
Inching along on the left wing. All but the root ribs are drilled for the leading edge and strut brackets are formed. Starting to fit the trailing edge.

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6789

My goal it to complete the structure on this wing by Jan 1

Frank Giger
11-29-2017, 11:55 AM
One wouldn't think the 1/8th scale difference between my plane and yours wouldn't be much, but looking at the last pictures with tools for reference shows it's actually quite a bit.

bookmaker
11-30-2017, 07:29 AM
It is surprisingly larger.

bookmaker
12-02-2017, 03:59 PM
I made pretty good headway today. All ribs, but the 2 root ribs, are riveted to the leading edge and spar. The main trailing edge is attached. The screw up on the spar tip is repaired.

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6791

Tomorrow I will start attaching the aileron ribs to the torque tube.

Moving slow, but moving.

bookmaker
12-03-2017, 08:26 PM
More work today. Aileron ribs completed and riveted to the "top hats" to allow attachment to the torque tube. Test fit of course.

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6796

Had to stop and fire up the grill to fix momma filet migon for dinner. MMMMM good. Gotta keep momma happy.

Frank Giger
12-03-2017, 11:16 PM
How did you ensure symmetry between wing tips? Truthfully, as long as they are close, nobody would ever notice, but I found the only way I could get them to match was to make them at the same time. When I waited, even using the same jig, they came out different, perhaps due to using different forces when bending.

bookmaker
12-04-2017, 07:49 AM
Frank, I did the same. Both tip bows and the aileron trailing edges were made at the same time as mirror image. Considering the tip bows are compound curves, they came out extremely close. I don't know if I posted photos of them together here, but I did on theaerodrome.com.

Frank Giger
12-04-2017, 10:19 AM
I guess I missed it.

Just as you've done, I found that posting the build in mirror fashion there and here was beneficial - two different subsets of the building community with different perspectives and ideas sometimes means two different solutions to the same problem to chose from.

Plus I can ask stupider questions here - they already think I'm an idiot on the aerodrome site, and I don't want to enlarge the opinion.

It's interesting that your wingtip bow tube is larger than the one on the aileron. I didn't see that in the plans; another improvement?

While it's jumping ahead, covering won't be too much further along. On the transition between front spar and bow tube, I found a very simple solution to preventing the "sharp tube step" effect that can happen - tape. Some cloth tape (I used that first aid stuff) from bow to the start of the rib worked great. It doesn't take much and is only there to help the fabric drape well and give a hint where not to get too aggressive with the iron.

I know you're going to pinch down the rear spar for a nice smooth transition, so tape will just be there for anti-chafing. Hats off for this - I didn't trust myself to do this right, so I just extended out the bow with a bit of half inch tubing from the spar to fake the work and give the fabric a chance to miss the end of the spar.

Right about where you are in the build I was getting excited, and work actually sped up. Get on it before busy time strikes at work!

bookmaker
12-04-2017, 10:36 AM
Frank, you are correct on all accounts. The 3/4" tip bow is an upgrade on my part. Also, the spar gets flattened at the tip and I will definitely be adding anti chafe tape over all the sharper edges.

Check post 104 on page 11 for the ends of the other wing.

Busy work time is already here.

bookmaker
12-04-2017, 12:02 PM
Actually Frank, you didn't miss photos of matching the wing tip bows. I didn't post any. I did post matching the tip bows on the lower wings however.

I pretty much made all the parts for both left and right wings at the same time. Or if I didn't actually make the second part, I made a pattern. That will come in handy when I start making the shrouds around the wishbone and wing root.

Frank Giger
12-06-2017, 10:57 AM
For the lower wings, I just tacked the inside rib in with one rivet front and back. I mounted the wings, set the lower wing angle, and adjusted that rib to match. No gap seal required.

Then I ran the leading edge on the lower right wing a bit too far and had it bind and put a little smile on it against the fuselage panel. Because I'm smart like that. ;)

bookmaker
12-06-2017, 02:45 PM
Keep in mind on the N17, there are rounded cowl cheeks that add to the fitting issues of the lower wings. I do not plan to attach the root ribs of the lower wings until I can fit them against the cowl cheeks. Sometime next spring. I hope.

bookmaker
12-19-2017, 11:37 AM
Won't seem like much, but the aileron ribs are not attached to the torque tube, the diagonal brace is attached to the inner rib of the aileron, the aileron rib ends have been tweaked to keep the trailing edge straight and the end of the spar has been drilled for the wing tip bow.

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6854

6855

Next up is cutting out the end of the spar past the tip bow and flattening the end of the spar around it. Once the spar is flattened, the holes for the tip bow will be tweaked for exact alignment, then the bow can be fit to the leading edge and once all is good, the spar end formed around the tip bow and all riveted. Then the aileron trailing edge-tip gets the same fitting procedure. There is an extension tube that will slide into the torque tube that will extend to the tip.

If I don't get back on here until after the date:

MERRY CHRISTMAS

6856

Dale

bookmaker
02-02-2018, 04:39 PM
I haven't dropped off the planet, just have been real busy with other stuff.

My son was home at Christmas and helped me mount the wing tip bow.

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6935

6936

After that, things sat a while, but last weekend, I was able to do some work on the aileron - fitting the ribs to the trailing edge and getting ready to add the extension to the torque tube that ties into the aileron tip. When that gets fit, squeezed and riveted, the aileron ribs will be riveted to the trailing edge. Then on to the aileron leading edge and wing aileron cut out fairing. A labor intensive fiddly project. I hope to be able to spend several hours on that this weekend.

tcepilot
02-07-2018, 09:02 PM
I’m in A&p school currently, I’m considering building this same kit in a few years. I have enjoyed this thread and can not wait to see more!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Frank Giger
02-07-2018, 11:32 PM
It's really neat to see how Dale is smoothing the rough edges of the plans and turning a very basic aircraft into something special.

For those not aware, Dale's Airdrome Aeroplanes Nieuport 17 and my Nieuport 11 are different (by plans) only in scale. So while my aircraft is sort of, um, average and rough around the edges, using the same plans and materials - and a little more time and effort - he's coming up with a real gem.

bookmaker
02-09-2018, 11:52 AM
Thanks to both of you. As Frank said, I am trying adjust the basic plan to be more accurate in outline. Robert's basic plan is solid but is geared toward rapid build at some expense to scale outline. Mine will still not be an accurate representation, but will be closer.

Dale

Frank Giger
02-09-2018, 11:01 PM
And it must be said that every modification worthy of serious attention was planned and made with communication with Robert Baslee, who designed these aircraft.

Mr. Baslee is fantastic for communicating complex engineering and aeronautical concepts to the builder.

Dale: "I want to reduce the sweep, lower the airfoil, and change the front cabanes to a rigid structure that will eliminate the second set of cross wires."
Robert: "Certainly that can be done using an so-and-so airfoil instead, and after looking at what you're planning find no problem with it. There are a few considerations you have to take into account..."

Me: "The back bottom wing cross tube-y things won't go in like the paper says, as the bottom fuselage tubes are in the way. Can I lift them up a little?"
Robert: "How much is a little?"
Me: "About 3/8 an inch."
Robert: "Yes, but make sure the cross tube-y thing - they're called carry throughs - aren't touching the lower longeron, which is what we call the main fuselage tubes."

:)

bookmaker
02-10-2018, 01:36 PM
I finally got a chance to make a little progress. After coming down with food poisoning last weekend, there was no hope of working on it then.

Rose helped me complete the basic structure of the aileron this morning. Torque tube tip was trimmed, extension added, extension measured, drilled and flattened to fit aileron trailing edge/ tip. Then all riveted together.

6959 6960 6961

Next is the aileron leading edge and aileron cutout fairings. Finally, the pilot cut out area and fairings around the wishbone will complete the wing.

bookmaker
02-18-2018, 08:51 PM
Started the owner assist annual on my Citabria, but had a little time to work on the Nieuport aileron.

There are 4 pieces that make up the leading edge of the aileron. They must be curved in approx 4" diameter curve. I am using a jig of 2x4's, PVC and steel pipe. It's a real pain. I got the longest piece and a little 1" long piece formed and clecoed to the ribs. It was really warm and muggy and I needed to quit.

Progress:

6980 6981

bookmaker
02-27-2018, 09:16 PM
More inches along the road.

Second piece of aileron leading edge fit along with the shrouds around the hinge slots. Still need to cut the outer hinge slot and fit the tip piece.

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Here is what the hinge slots look like on the other wing.

7006 7007

Dale

bookmaker
03-03-2018, 08:29 PM
A few more inches today.

7020

Two aileron leading edge pieces permanently attached. One more to go - the tip - also the most difficult. :rollseyes:

bookmaker
03-05-2018, 10:38 AM
Working around tons of stuff that needed to be done around the house, I (with Rose's help) finally completed the aileron leading edge sheeting. It is amazing how many hours it takes to install 3 pieces of aluminum.:)

7025

Well, actually there are still two braces that go under the outer hinge shrouds to support them. Then on to the aileron cutout trailing edge fairings.

Frank Giger
03-05-2018, 10:58 AM
Um, what the heck is an aileron cutout trailing edge fairing?

bookmaker
03-05-2018, 01:01 PM
Frank, The thingy with the clecos. It probably has a more official name, but I don't know what it is.;)

7031

Frank Giger
03-05-2018, 06:28 PM
I think it's "gap seal." :)

I did something similar at first, but then found it wasn't necessary, and would have been a huge PITA to cover. Then again, you can remove the ailerons.

I'm still very concerned you haven't given enough room for the fabric and it's going to rub.

bookmaker
03-06-2018, 08:14 AM
Frank, it is close, but there is sufficient room for a clean covering job. I will wrap the aileron around the leading edge, so that will keep the covering count low there, and be careful about build up on the wing side.

Thanks for keeping watch on me.

Dale

Frank Giger
03-06-2018, 12:30 PM
Well, your plane is a cousin to mine, so we're related by aircraft.

I'm really, really looking forward to seeing it when it's finished. Heck, I want to park mine next to yours and walk from plane to plane saying "oh, that's better!" and "Yep, he did the same thing."

We're just about one full tank of gas and a great story away from each other.

bookmaker
03-06-2018, 01:08 PM
Yes, we'll bring them together one day. Hopefully in the not to distant future.

bookmaker
03-11-2018, 05:52 PM
Another hurdle cleared. Today, Rose helped me complete the aileron cutout fairings - top and bottom.

Top

7054 7055

Bottom

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Sometimes, it just takes the right size hammer.

7058

Dale

Frank Giger
03-12-2018, 09:38 AM
Wonderful craftsmanship with a great eye for detail!

bookmaker
03-18-2018, 05:47 AM
Rose and I had some time to work on this project yesterday. We mated the two top wings together for the first time with ribs. (still need false ribs on the left wing). The purpose for this was to match the root ribs wing to wing. We got the forward end of the left root rib positioned and a spacer between the upper and lower rib attached.

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The left wing is back on the table for framing out the cockpit cut out, shrouds around the wishbone and final bracing of the root rib.

7071 7072

bookmaker
04-08-2018, 06:15 AM
Rose and I moved the wing to the lean to (after moving my boat that has been neglected for the last couple of years). The purpose was to be able to match the left wing root area items with the right. Last week, all was going well until it was discovered the left upper pilot cutout bow interfered with the aileron control wishbone at full deflection. We measured and measured and found nothing different from the right side more that 1/4 - 3/8" different. However, due to the hard arc, it hits. After letting it sit a few days we went at getting the parts to fit. Job complete. We had to shift the bow a little and associated parts, but it isn't obvious. We made a lot of progress.

7114

7115

7116

We now have to flip it to work on the bottom side.

bookmaker
04-15-2018, 04:11 PM
Work in the last couple days produced two complete upper wings (except for covering)

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7135

7136

7137

7138

Now, how do I get these monsters up on the struts???:rollseyes:

bookmaker
05-08-2018, 07:33 PM
Wings on temporarily. However, I have decided the wing incidence needs to be reduced. The plan dimensions end up with 4 degrees at spar centerlines. That seems way too much. After discussing with Robert Basley, I plan to reduce the incidence measurement down to about 1 degree. Unfortunately, that requires. replacing some of the vertical fuselage members. However, better to fix now tha after it is giving problems flying.

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7188

Dale

bookmaker
05-13-2018, 06:52 AM
Yesterday we bit the bullet and started the modifications to lower the wing incidence. The process was to lower the fuselage tail to bring the jigged angle from 4 degrees to 1.2 degrees that Robert says he uses on the new versions. The first shot shows how much we lowered the tail support.

7197

Redrilling the forward vertical fuselage member for the carry through attachment.

7198

New fuselage angle. The wing spars are horizontal.

7199

Dale

Frank Giger
05-13-2018, 12:56 PM
Now that's ingenuity.

Instead of tilting the wings, you tilted the fuselage. Neat.

bookmaker
07-12-2018, 11:01 AM
Work and family have kept me away from this build, but it has not gone untouched.

The vertical fuselage members that I removed have either been replaced or modified for the new lower wing position. The forward cabanes have been shortened and the angle at the top adjusted for the new incidence.

What remains refitting the wings is to drill the final holes in one of the vertical members that are now unable to be drilled by normal methods. I have had to make a drill guide for a smaller bit, then I can remove the members and open the holes to the required size. That will hopefully happen in the next few days.

In the mean time, Rose and I brought the left lower wing back to the house to replace the lead/lag cables. They just did not suit me with their tension. All better now. While it was at home, we made cable separators and installed them on all internal cables in the wings.

7367

As is my normal practice, I changed the location of the inner attachment of the rear landing wires. The plan has them attaching to the rear of the rear cabane connecting plates. This puts the eyebolts just above and ahead of the pilot's forehead. I wasn't keen on that idea. The originals came from under the rear spar, so I did the best I could to locate them in that approx. location - the upper outer side of the rear cabanes. To take the stress from pulling the cabanes apart, I fabricated a tie strap between the cabanes. We had to be careful the cables were low enough to clear the aileron wishbones at full throw. They do.

7368

7369

7370

Once I get the final attachments completed for the carry through tubes, we will square up the wings, shim where required and make final attachments.

Then the outer V struts!

bookmaker
07-12-2018, 01:58 PM
One of my recent distractions:

7373

My wife's Christmas present to me was a 1 hour Introduction to Float Plane lesson in Seattle, WA. We went there in June to visit my son and his wife to be, so I cashed in my lesson. Wow, that was great. I did 6 water takeoff/ landings including one glassy water landing. step taxiing, including turns and general float plane operations.

Getting my float plane certificate is on my bucket list. I really have no use for it, but it will just be great to work toward it.

No, I will not put floats on the Nieuport.:rollseyes:

Dale

Frank Giger
07-12-2018, 05:48 PM
The landing wire mounts are pretty sweet.

It's probably a bit of over-building, but one I fully understand and appreciate.

Now I am going to preach to you rigging, since you're nearing that stage. It's great the leading edges aren't on now; that will help a lot.

Rigging is EVERYTHING. As you know, I spent about two months (off and on) and rolls of wire on it before I got it right; it has made all the difference, I believe.

For all the quirks of my aircraft, she's rock solid in the air; the ability to fly hands free at cruise (in smooth air), easily coordinate turns, and straight-forward-no-surprises stall characteristics are all up to having the rigging as close to perfect as I can get it. Lord knows it's not my superior piloting abilities.

One the cabanes are where you want them and locked in, mount those wings, put her in flying posture,* get out the levels, and start the process. I used little spirit levels and two sided tape on two spots on the spars, and one on the compression tubes.

The goal is to get all the wires about the same tightness with the same cranking of the turnbuckles. Robert likes two threads showing on either end. I have mine to where the threads just disappear into the barrels. It doesn't matter, but if they're all in the same position things get a lot easier down the line if one has to take the wings off and put them back on!

Also, I learned that rigging the landing wires first, to where the upper wing is pulled up level (and the washout in the lower wings is established), and then bringing the flying wires tight to them saved a lot of time and got me the results I wanted. Chasing down one wire only to find it changed another is a real bummer. Don't be afraid to just throw your hands up, cut them, and start over. Most of my time wasted was doing just that....trying to make a bad set of wires work.

Oh, and those center wires over the fuselage (if you have any left) are dead last to be done. Those rascals can throw a wrench in the whole process if they're done first.

The key here is consistency. If the left wing spars have the bubbles just touching on the inside (towards the fuselage) line, that's actually fine, as long as the ones on the right are the same, with the bubble touching the inside (towards the fuselage) line as well. Symmetry is King. Don't chase perfection too far; as long as the wings are all in agreement with each other she'll fly true.

* Here's a funny thing - if you prop the tail up to where one is a bit nose low and rig level to it, guess how the plane will tend to fly? I picked a spot at the side of the fuselage right at the cockpit as my datum for level. ON ONE SIDE. Pick datum points and keep them. One on the side for long level and one spot (I used the center of the upper engine mount horizontal rail) for sideways level.

bookmaker
07-12-2018, 07:20 PM
Thanks for the heads up on the rigging, Frank. I agree entirely.

As for the leading edges, the wing structures are completed. I will not be adding the aluminum sheet per the kit. That is why there are the false ribs.

The key to my next project is getting the wings all squared up so that I can fabricate the V struts as once they are attached, the relationship of the upper and lower wings is fixed. Then set the cables.

Dale

Frank Giger
07-12-2018, 07:47 PM
Yep.

The trick here is to get everything close - fuselage in the right position, top wing leveled, and bottom wing with that 2.5 degree up slope, and measure the rear vertical using a plumb bob on one side.

Cut, cope, and place it. Bear in mind Robert is very "gooder enough" on this, and it may not be perfectly vertical, though you've paid close enough attention to where it might be. Plus you've got those wickedly clever clampy mount thingies that go around the compression strut, so there's some wiggle room.

This is your datum piece.

Get a piece of 1x2 that is longer than you'll need. Round one end of it. Bolt it to the bottom of the strut mount (or, if you're skilled, clamp it), rotate it to where it hits the mark at the front of the compression strut (or, rather, fits into your clampy thing), mark, cut it, and check for fit. This is the template for the crushed tube or wood for the forward strut. Marking the angle is easy - just run a sharpie across the top of the strut mount across the wood. You can use this for the coping angle on the actual piece on both ends!

Make a jig to make the strut assembly. Execute the build. Check for fit.

Now, without measuring the other side on the aircraft, duplicate it. You want them to be identical, and if you monkey with measuring the other side or make them independent of one another they won't be.

It was really hard for me to do this! I wanted to double and triple check everything at this point.

If they don't both line up, check your wing supports. I was about to wish I had hair to pull out when they didn't in my build, only to figure out that the reason they weren't playing nice was my rope hanging system was great for the upper wing, but my plastic lawn chair back prop for the lower one on the other side wasn't - it was actually pulling the wing forward from being fully seated.

Yes, I was lucky in that the lower wing that wasn't fully seated was on the side I didn't measure (but was good on the side I did).

Now with both in place, bolted at the bottom and clamped at the top, check the rear strut and do a little dance when a tiny nudge on the second one makes it perfectly vertical and hitting the compression strut at the same point as on the other wing.

Floatsflyer
07-12-2018, 07:48 PM
One of my recent distractions:

7373

My wife's Christmas present to me was a 1 hour Introduction to Float Plane lesson in Seattle, WA. We went there in June to visit my son and his wife to be, so I cashed in my lesson. Wow, that was great. I did 6 water takeoff/ landings including one glassy water landing. step taxiing, including turns and general float plane operations.

Getting my float plane certificate is on my bucket list. I really have no use for it, but it will just be great to work toward it.

No, I will not put floats on the Nieuport.:rollseyes:

Dale

Sweet, sweet, sweet! Most fun flying you'll ever do. Hmmmm...floats, even amphibs on the Nieuport. Jennies had a mono float and outriggers under the bottom wing. If you go to Osh, check out the Micro Mong at the seaplane base.

bookmaker
07-12-2018, 07:57 PM
Yes, Floats it was a blast. Interesting having to add pump the water out of the floats on the walk around.

Floatsflyer
07-12-2018, 09:08 PM
Yes, Floats it was a blast. Interesting having to add pump the water out of the floats on the walk around.

Glad you loved it. If you consider floats for the Nieuport(I see your eyes rolling) then choose composites like Clamar specifically for non-certifieds. No rivets, no leaks, no pump outs.

bookmaker
07-18-2018, 02:17 PM
Rose and I had a little time weekend before last to work on the Nieuport. I wanted to replace the drag/antidrag wires in the left lower wing as I was not satisfied with the tension. DONE. While I had it in the shop, I made and installed the leather cable separator. While I was at it, I made and installed them on all internal wing cable crossings.

Leather Separator:
7384

The next project was to reinstall all the vertical fuselage members that I had removed to change the lower wing incidence. It turned out that I only had to remake one on each side. The remainder had the new holes far enough from the original, or in the same location, to reuse them. The only problem is the vertical member behind the front carry through tube could not be match drilled with the required 5/16" bit while in place. Lowering the carry through put it too close to the longeron the get a drill and bit in place. So, I determined I could use a 12" long 1/8" bit that is somewhat flexible to drill a pilot hole by letting the bit lay along side the longeron. The problem was there were already 5/16" holes in the front tube and carry through. I decided I could make a centering guide. I ordered a length of 5/16" OD 4130 tubing with just under 1/8"ID. I cut a piece to the length I needed and drilled it to 1/8".

Guide and bit:
7385

Guide and bit in place. The goal is to drill the vertical member to the right of the carry through tube:
7386

Drill position: (bad photo, sorry)
7387

It worked great. I then removed the piece just drilled (held in with clecos) and opened the holes to 5/16". The pieces were all reinstalled and riveted in place and all that was required was a slight reaming to get the holes lined up for the bolts.

All back in place:
7388

My other project was to fit the attachments for the rear landing cables to the rear cabane structure. As is usual, I varied from the plans to suit my tastes and mounted them to the upper outside of the struts. Since I did not want that kind of potential load puling out on the struts, I made a connector piece for the inside that connects the two sides transferring the load from side to side.

Rear landing cable attached:
7389

Connector:
7390

The front cabanes were also shortened and the top end angle modified. All cabanes and carry through tubes are now back in place.

The next step is to align the wings then insert shims, etc to fix them in that location.

Dale

bookmaker
07-22-2018, 06:50 AM
Rose and I spent yesterday afternoon working on the Nieupy. We spent quite some time drawing reference lines on the rough floor of the hangar then lined up the upper wing. When we were satisfied with that we drilled the holes through the forward cabanes for the mounting bolts top and bottom. Since we lowered the wing leading edge, the cross cables are too long so we got measurements to make new ones.

Finally we moved to the lower wings, aligned them and inserted the spacer washers on the front carry through bolts.

Doesn't sound like much, but several hours work in really hot and humid conditions.

Hopefully a little more work on it (and photos) today.

bookmaker
07-23-2018, 08:02 PM
Yesterday, Rose and I went to the hangar and squared the wings and reattached the cabane cross cables, rear carry through bolts and drilled the lower wing rear spars at the connector to insert D pins to hole the wings in place.

Tonight we worked on the rudder to get it ready to cover. I need something covered to kick up the motivation level.

I added trim over the control horns for fabric attachment.

7401

I added a 3/8" tube from the top bow to the lower rib to prevent the top from bowing in when covered.

7402

Rubber grommet where the tube penetrates the rib

7403

Rib drilled for fabric rivets.

7404

Ready for anti chafe tape.

7405

Dale

Frank Giger
07-24-2018, 09:48 PM
Rubber grommet? That's pretty sexy. Mine doesn't have that vertical tube, though - I guess because it's small than yours. Or did you add that?

Covering the tail first is a good plan. Every single covering task, especially covering around tight curves and tapes, is on that tail. Heck, figuring out that one must evenly iron both sides and getting a feel for it is invaluable.

bookmaker
07-25-2018, 06:40 AM
I added it Frank. I knew if I didn't put something there, the top bow would pull down when shrinking the fabric.

Frank Giger
07-25-2018, 08:04 AM
It wouldn't. :)

On covering the Nieuport - going for "final shrink" is usually a bad idea...or, rather, should be taken with extreme caution.

For the tail feathers, go to the second heat temp and stop. It'll still be tight as can be, and the odds of having them warp is small.

bookmaker
08-09-2018, 12:36 PM
Some movement on the Nieupy since the last posting. As usual, life has been getting in the way.

Rose and I modified my previously made pattern for the interplane V strut. I plan to make the final ones out of spruce rather than the aluminum tubes supplies in the kit. Two newer sets of pattern boards were made from this. Unfortunately, they will need to be modified due to the change in the next paragraph.

7423

It was decided to modify the upper wing support to eliminate the washout that was built in based on initial comments from Robert Baslee. He subsequently indicated this is not necessary and he does not use it. I decided to eliminate it also (it was not built into the wing structure, just twisted on the supports) The modification to the support required cutting a notch to clear the metal fairing at the wing/aileron intersection. I can just be seen in this photo.

7424


Next was to drill the holes and install the remaining 6 bolts at the upper wing center intersection front and rear. Drilling through the internal stainless steel connector tubes used up several bits.

7425 7426


Then we mounted the flying wires, set the lengths and swaged a turnbuckle on the lower ends. The upper ends have factory forks installed on the cables. Man, squeezing 16 times on the 3/16” cable swags was a real workout. (The landing wire cables were just sent to Aircraft Spruce for factory forks on one end of each of them)

7427 7428


Finally, the other evening, I taped up the rudder frame for covering. I hope to get it covered by this weekend.

Dale

Frank Giger
08-09-2018, 04:09 PM
I take it you got one of the mythical instruction books that Robert said come with kits?

On my plans it was hand written that there is zero washout on the top wing and 2.5 degrees on the bottom wing, accomplished by rigging.

Now, then, maybe Robert with 30+ years of building material can measure out a 2.5 degree washout on a upslope wing via rigging with any sort of accuracy, but that was beyond me, and I just ignored it. I just rigged it all as true and symmetrically as I could.

Power off stall - she mushes, then stalls straight forward. Power on stall - gentle break to the right, nothing spectacular. As long as the rigging is correct and the same for both sides, just about everything else is gravy. Certainly one would be shocked if they ran a laser down the top of the ribs on my wings...relatively consistent is a fair term; perfect would not.

bookmaker
08-09-2018, 07:08 PM
The lower wing has 2.5 degrees of dihedral in a wing, not washout. I think you mixed up the terms. The top wing is flat end to end.

By the way, I just shook one of the containers of fabric adhesive. It is plenty liquid so should be OK. I'll cut out fabric for the rudder tomorrow after work.

Frank Giger
08-09-2018, 09:01 PM
Yep, I meant washout....setting the dihedral was a cinch.

I really don't have washout on the lower wing, though the handwritten addition said to put it in there - no washout on the upper wing.

I'll have to scan that page.

bookmaker
08-13-2018, 12:19 PM
The first attempt attempting to cover the rudder didn't go well. I think the adhesive I have is too old and gone bad. We were able to clean off the adhesive by rubbing it like rubber cement. I ordered new adhesive so will try again.

Rose and I reworked the V strut patterns and got both mounted temporarily.

7431
Just had to try out the "pilot's" seat.:D

7432

The zebra stripes on the knees are from a kneeling pad that has alternating yellow and black. Apparently the black is deteriorating. The sweat is all mine.

Now that the temporary V struts are in place we can fit the landing wires. They should be here Thursday with factory forks on one end.

Dale

Frank Giger
08-14-2018, 11:44 AM
That's the nice thing about practicing on the rudder - it's easy to strip, clean and try again on. :)

I did break down and buy actual Stewart's fabric glue, mostly because the 3M stuff Robert provided was pretty gummy by the time I cracked it open.

Your seat elevation is spot on, but I suspect you'll wind up making the same mod to the push rod I did to keep it that low.

bookmaker
08-14-2018, 07:10 PM
I received the fresh 3M Fastbond today. Hopefully I can try it in the next few days. I hope to do it in an air conditioned area so it's not so darn hot and humid. May make a difference.

Frank Giger
08-14-2018, 07:15 PM
What, you don't like painting a six inch long strip of glue to see that when the brush reaches the end, the front is dry?

bookmaker
08-18-2018, 03:35 PM
Landing wires installed today.

7437 7438

7439 7440

bookmaker
08-19-2018, 03:44 PM
One half of the rudder is now covered.

7441 7442

Unfortunately, when I opened the adhesive jug, I found it was neutral color rather than green that I thought I ordered. Previously while watching Shirley Girard working on Russ Turner's Camel wings with neutral Stewarts adhesive, she noted she was adding a little chalk line blue to give a little color so she could see where she was working. I found it to be very difficult as well.

I am not sure if the SS adhesive is really different than the 3M (although several have posted that the advertised chemical make up is identical), I did have some issues:

I could not get the fabric to stick to the "dried" adhesive as is done in the SS videos. I may not have applied enough glue. However, it does react to heat and sticks when heated.

As noted above, the neutral is difficult to determine where you have glue and where you don't.

There is a definite learning curve to do it neat and tidy. I do feel pretty good about the end results however. I will not try the other side until I have sufficient time to work with it and not feel pressured.

Finally, I need to get a different iron. I tried two and the temps seem to be unstable. I did not shrink past the 250 degree setting. I think!

Rose is going off for a few days, so I will not have a helper. I think I will wait until she gets back.

pshadwick
08-20-2018, 11:58 AM
I used the SS glue but didn't have much luck with sticking the fabric to the dried adhesive either.
Loved the SS System anyway.
...Paul

bookmaker
08-20-2018, 12:51 PM
Paul, as I understand your comment you used the "official" SS adhesive and had the same non stick issue. If that is correct, that answers a question I had as to whether SS added something to the basic adhesive to allow it to remain tacky. I have read several comments relating the posted chemical makeup of the SS adhesive is identical to the 3M Fastbond which is what I used.

I also suspect temperature and humidity can play a big factor. I tried in a semi air conditioned room this time, but it was either raining or about to outside pretty much the whole time.

I sure don't like the neutral color. I really had a hard time determining coverage. I am thinking of adding a drop or two of water based food coloring to the next batch.

I hope to get the other side of the rudder covering started sometime this week, but my wife is gone for a few days so I have no helper. I may just wait till the weekend.

Frank Giger
08-21-2018, 11:31 AM
I bought the regular blue SS glue for a couple reasons:

1. The stuff in the 3M oil type jugs was a bit thick - I suspect they were pretty old before I got them, and I didn't store them very well. Getting a clean line with it was fairly trying.
2. I spilled a helluvalot of it. ;)
3. The jugs did NOT seal well, and it can't be reconstituted. For some reason, the SS containers sealed much better.

[edit]

A lot of guys will say they really enjoy covering. While I didn't hate it, I certainly did not put it under the "love" column of building, particularly since I never mastered tapes.

bookmaker
08-26-2018, 01:17 PM
Both sides of the rudder are now covered, shrunk and the fabric riveted to the rib.

7464

Although it doesn't look like it, the distance is the same between all rivets.

The area around the control horn wasn't doing what I wanted, so I cut reinforcements from .010" aluminum that will ultimately be covered with a doily.

7465

Now on to tapes and doilies.

Frank Giger
08-26-2018, 11:05 PM
Although it doesn't look like it, the distance is the same between all rivets.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall." - Emerson.

;)

bookmaker
09-09-2018, 03:24 PM
Rudder taped ready for primer.

I made a dogbone patch to fill the intersection of the perimeter tube and spar. Also covered the aluminum reinforcement around the control horn with a doily.

7493 7495 7496

After sticking the perimeter tape to the outer edge, the tape is shrunk to fit the curves. Then glued down.

7497 7498

Extra image - OOPS

Fokker Builder
09-12-2018, 08:16 PM
7504

Frank Giger
09-13-2018, 11:59 AM
Nice! I gather you've figured out the tapes are actually the most difficult part of covering!

(At least for me it is)

bookmaker
09-15-2018, 07:01 PM
I applied the provided fabric sealer to the second side of the rudder.

7508

The first side didn't go quite as well as I did not filter the sealer well enough and ended up with a lot of little bumps. They are a pain to get out, but I am getting there.

We have other commitments coming up, but I hope to get it painted in a couple weeks.

bookmaker
11-07-2018, 05:26 AM
It's been a while since I posted here, and it is going to be a while longer before any significant progress is done on the N-17. We took a direct hit from hurricane Michael. Although we are nearly 60 miles from the coast, we officially had 125 mph sustained winds and the neighbor's anemometer broke over 150 mph. To put it mildly, we have a real mess here. While my house survived with very minor damage, and the N17 and my other planes survived, we lost our camper, shelter for it, the truck that carries the camper and untold trees.

It will be months cleaning up, so the N17 has to be on the back burner. Maybe if I get a few minutes I'll try to do a little more painting on the rudder. Otherwise, it's on hold.

Dale

Before - North up
7559

After - North to the left
7558

bookmaker
01-22-2019, 02:58 PM
Just an update that there is no update. Other issues compel my leaving the N17 alone for a while yet.:mad:

bookmaker
03-24-2019, 08:01 PM
There is not much to report. Cleaning up after the hurricane and tax season have pretty much taken up my mental capacity. However, some good friends helped remove the upper wing structure from the fuselage today and set them on racks. As soon as I get a little time, I will clear a spot at my home shop and move the fuselage here to complete the controls, firewall, engine mount and fairings. I am hoping to make some major headway this summer.

Dale

bookmaker
04-25-2019, 09:04 PM
Baby steps.

Rose and I brought the fuselage to the home shop last weekend. I have a little time this evening to start on the central controls. The carry-through tubes are carefully drilled for the bolts that mount the torque tube ball joints.

7824


Then the torque tube ends are massaged to fit into the torque tube, then drilled for the attachment bolts. I need to shorten he torque tube a little to provide positive clearance.

7825


Not much, but something. Keep in mind we are still cleaning up the disaster from Hurricane Michael. Six months and no federal relief package.:mad:

Dale

planecrazzzy
04-28-2019, 02:06 AM
Yes , Life happens...and when you can, you get back to your plane...
.
I had a Tornado come about a block and a half away...Caught some damage.
When people asked... "Are you OK ? "... After , They ask" How's the PLANE? "
Haaaa

In the span of building a plane... a lot of things come up that take priority.
Building is a hobby , you get back in it.

Nice Workmanship !
Full size... There's a Hanger Challenge.
.
Gotta Fly...

bookmaker
04-28-2019, 05:12 AM
Thanks.

Had a good day of work yesterday. In the morning Rose and I constructed the aileron bellcrank.

7826 7827

7828 7829

In the afternoon we built the elevator bellcrank.

7830 7831

7832

The spacing of the angles to mount the elevator bellcrank must be widened. When the control stick moves side to side to operate the ailerons, the front of the elevator push pull tube does also. At the width in the photo, the tube will hit the angles. Just need longer spacers.

Dale

Frank Giger
04-30-2019, 05:20 PM
Oh, I see what you did there in keeping the elevator rod low.

Rather than a bellcrank, consider a round bushing where the lower tube goes through there instead, and a join of the two push-pull tubes.

That way they can twist and the lateral motion won't become vertical.

If you're not a big fan of the long portion of the elevator tube shaking around and flexing, I'd suggest putting in another round bushing for it further down as well.

bookmaker
04-30-2019, 07:10 PM
I'm not sure I follow you Frank. There is only one short pushrod to the elevator bellcrank from the control stick. Cables from the bellcrank back to the elevators.

Frank Giger
05-01-2019, 07:31 AM
Oh, I thought it was a push-pull rod all the way back, like mine.

I only have cables for the rudder.

bookmaker
05-04-2019, 08:11 PM
The control stick is now installed.

7833

7834

The plan is to install the elevator cables tomorrow.

Dale

bookmaker
05-19-2019, 07:44 AM
Elevator cables are complete.

7843

7844

Aileron control bar is attached

7845

Rudder bar assembly is installed. The floor board will have heel plates attached and a cutout for the rudder cables to go under the crossmember.

7846

Dale

bookmaker
06-02-2019, 07:44 AM
More progress.

7867

7868

7869

Frank Giger
06-06-2019, 08:49 AM
Very clean, excellent work!

bookmaker
07-10-2019, 04:32 PM
7912

7913

7914

tcepilot
04-19-2023, 06:44 PM
Any updates? Hope all is well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CJW
08-06-2023, 10:55 AM
Any updates? Hope all is well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was curious too so I looked over on theaerodrome a d he's still building it.