Curmudgeon At Twelve O'Clock!

[rwanttaja]

When you fly a plane that drops like a neutron stone if the engine quits, you kind of like staying close to the runway when flying touch-and-goes. So I fly a pretty tight pattern.

This gets modified, of course, when other planes are in the pattern. Despite the temptation, I never cut folks off. Often they're students, and the patterns get stretched. I usually stay cool, knowing that they're just learning.

Was a bit tough a couple of weeks back. There were about four students in the pattern, and the base-to-final turns were getting further and further away. My patience does have limits.

Unbeknownst to me, our Chapter President was watching...and listening. One of our older chapter members is getting pretty frail and doesn't get out of the house much. The President has driven him to the airport to watch the planes fly, and they had a handheld to listen to the traffic.

Met him at the chapter meeting tonight. "We heard you, Ron... you said, 'Fly Baby is turning base over Pierce County.' You sounded peeved!"

(For a geographical reference, the county line is about ten miles south of the airport. I may have exaggerated.)

They apparently shot a picture of me flying, too.....
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/grumpy.jpg

Ron "And stay off my runway!" Wanttaja

[Dana]

Know what you mean... my Fisher 404 I'm sure had even worse glide than your Flybaby. There was one instructor at the local FBO who I think was trying to log cross country time in the pattern. Fortunately she doesn't work there any more.

[DaleB]

And here I thought it was just due to our proximity to Offutt AFB that some of our local CFIs seem to teach flying patterns sized for tankers and bombers.

[Mike M]

Was that a towered or non-towered field, Ron? Sometimes big patterns are due to stupid and can't be fixed. Other times, lack of education. Questions one might use to determine whether training can help or just waste time:

1. What is the approach category of the aircraft you're flying?
2. How large is that aircraft's traffic pattern at a non-towered field?
3. When should the turn to base leg be initiated?

[gbrasch]

My '52 Tri-Pacer is like that. When asked about glide, I respond, "throw a brick out the window and follow it!"

[rwanttaja]

Was that a towered or non-towered field, Ron? Sometimes big patterns are due to stupid and can't be fixed. Other times, lack of education. Questions one might use to determine whether training can help or just waste time:

1. What is the approach category of the aircraft you're flying?
2. How large is that aircraft's traffic pattern at a non-towered field?
3. When should the turn to base leg be initiated?

Was, I think, mostly 172s that day. I'm based at an uncontrolled field, runway 3300 feet long. Unfortunately, it's just ~10-15 miles from three controlled fields, so all the local students flock to my airport for touch-and-goes. Plus there's a helicopter school based on the field, whose instructors tend to turn off their radios or complain about "weekend pilots" when folks suggest they DON'T sit on the runway when they talk to their students ("My student is paying thousands of dollars for his instruction"...almost literal quote on the CTAF).

Questions #2 and #3 are, basically, religious questions and will likely start a fight. :-)

I my home drome has a very obvious set of railroad tracks and a freeway parallel to the runway (and a ~400-foot-high hill a bit further out), so don't have too much problems with folks setting their downwinds too far out. Most seem to turn base ~3/4 mile out, and I'm used to that (I do mine 1/3-1/2 mile or so out when traffic permits).

Students need to learn the sight picture on final, so I understand that they might go further out. On this particular day, it was cascading. On that same approach, I was cut off on final by another 172 that didn't realize the bozo train had stretched that far south.

Ron "Switching to Guns" Wanttaja

[Bill Berson]

With my glider, I cut in front of those one mile final pilots. But I tell them it will not delay them. I turn base just past the threshold and dive down and get off the runway in seconds. Gives students some real life pattern practice.

[Frank Giger]

Piloting a very slow aircraft brings an element of adventure to a filling pattern.

I tend to defer to other aircraft whenever possible. Heck, more than once I snugged in about a half mile (maybe a little less) on the downwind, pulled her back to 40 miles an hour, and watched a C172 perform the Base-to-Straight-in-Approach technique.

The only time I was able to participate in the Conga line was when my fellow comrade of the pattern gleefully stated that he was in absolutely no hurry in his Champ and would follow in after me. :)

[waltermitty]

I'm glad I fly out of an airport with little traffic (T65). I can shoot a dozen touch and goes in a hour in the Citabria.

[Vision401]

Extend up wind to make room for more in the pattern, base stays the same. I suggest 1/4 to 1/2 mile per A/C. It is crazy to go farther from the runway while low and slow.
If you have a tower and they don't extend upwinds, visit and ask why not? The tower can also direct skips when a faster plane can get ahead of a slower plane. Best time for this is when the slower plane is about to turn cross wind and the faster plane turns cross wind inside and gets on down wind before him.

[martymayes]

base stays the same. I suggest 1/4 to 1/2 mile per A/C.

the AC specifies a maximum?

[martymayes]

Here's one of my traffic pattern experiences: I was giving a FR to a guy, we were on downwind and a plane was on a ~1/2 mile final. So at the 45 point were I thought we would be turning, we kept going on, and on and on. Finally, I would estimate we turned on what was a ~3 mi final.

In de-brief I asked the pilot why he extended his downwind and he says "That guy in front of my flew such a large pattern I had no choice!"

Humm....I think in that case, and many cases, pilots just don't know how to space behind other traffic in the pattern. It can be difficult and confusing if you're not out doing it on a regular basis.

Probably the biggest violation in the pattern is taking off, climbing to 500' AGL and wracking over into a crosswind turn. I guess it's been done that way for 100 yrs despite the fact it's contrary to current guidance.

[Vision401]

the AC specifies a maximum?

A/C = aircraft, what are AC? a Maximum what?

Tower controllers work with keeping a Minimum separation, I think a 1/2 mile. But they tend to freak out if you are about to land at the beginning of a 3/4 mile runway if there is a A/C about to taxi/depart off the far end--won't clear you to land if the guy ahead is still on the runway. I was SUGGESTING for untowered patterns a minimum separation.

[martymayes]

Sorry I thought you were referencing an advisory circular. Tower controllers have their own criteria and they can keep planes much tighter than pilots left to do their own thing.

[RonK]

And here I thought it was just due to our proximity to Offutt AFB that some of our local CFIs seem to teach flying patterns sized for tankers and bombers.

Speaking of Offutt AFB I used to live in LaVista, and Elkhorn, Nebraska. The tankers and bombers would turn to final over Elkhorn around 2000' And be over LaVista around 1000'. Elkhorn is 21 miles from Offutt.

[DaleB]

Speaking of Offutt AFB I used to live in LaVista, and Elkhorn, Nebraska. The tankers and bombers would turn to final over Elkhorn around 2000' And be over LaVista around 1000'. Elkhorn is 21 miles from Offutt.
Elkhorn is now part of Omaha. When my family moved here in the mid 1960s, we were just outside of city limits at about 125th St.. Everything west of 127th was corn and bean fields. Now we have developments out past 200th. There's not a whole lot of traffic in and out of Offutt compared to what it was like back in the 60s and 70s, that's for sure. It is kind of cool though, to see an Air Force EC135 from above.

[RonK]

Elkhorn is now part of Omaha. When my family moved here in the mid 1960s, we were just outside of city limits at about 125th St.. Everything west of 127th was corn and bean fields. Now we have developments out past 200th. There's not a whole lot of traffic in and out of Offutt compared to what it was like back in the 60s and 70s, that's for sure. It is kind of cool though, to see an Air Force EC135 from above.

I remember the prototype 747 flying over our house in La Vista around '68, '69 flying to the Offutt airshow. like I said it was around 1000' and seemed like it was barely hanging in the air. We also got a few garage windows replaced by the Airforce when F-100's and F-4's flew over at supersonic and a few hundred feet off the ground. My dad said the Officer that came over to check the damage said the pilots were grounded for a while, and ours wasn't the only house with damage. I guess a lot of houses were damaged like over a hundred.

[DaleB]

I remember the Vulcan flying directly over our house. While we were miles from Offutt, we were directly under the approach... EVERYTHING went directly overhead. That Vulcan was so cool. When I saw the video of the very last flight of the very last airworthy Vulcan, I have to admit that I got a little teary-eyed. There's one in the museum here... I guess they didn't figure it was worth flying home.

[RonK]

Yep, I remember the Vulcan Another one that looked like it was barely hanging in the air with everything down.