Can I buy an E-AB at Flight Test?

[a6bn69]

I've gone through AC 20-27G and it doesn't specifically address this. I want to buy an almost finished amateur built aircraft. Long story here, bear with me, but this is the type aircraft I have been looking for.

The aircraft is a kit built helicopter that can be built as either an ultralight and operated under Part 103, or built as an E-AB and flown under a Special Airworthiness Certificate (SAWC) in the Experimental Category. The aircraft I want to buy was originally built and flown as an ultralight for about 300 hours. The original builder/owner then upgraded the engine, tanks, and other hardware, which moved it into the E-AB realm (helicopters can't be LSAs). The builder has finished the changes, but now has decided to sell and he has not yet submitted a Form 8130-6 (Application for Airworthiness Certificate (Amateur-Built)).

My question - if the builder will submit the application and pass the FAA inspection so that a SAWC and operating limitations are issued, can I buy the aircraft at that point and complete the flight testing, and then operate the aircraft under that SAWC as the owner? I am reluctant (unwilling?) to take on the responsibility of passing inspection and getting the SAWC issued. I also do not want an ultralight version.

I'm comfortable doing the flight test (I'm an aeronautical engineer), and hoping the flight test experience will help count toward getting a Repairman certificate for this aircraft (which the original builder did not get). Am I pipe dreaming here, or should I just move on?

[Auburntsts]

Yes you can, and I'd recommend that you stick to the scenario you described-- it gets its AWC prior to the sale..

[Bill Berson]

Only the builder can qualify for a Repairman certificate, as far as I know.

[Auburntsts]

Oops missed the repairman's cert part. Yeah that's going to be a no-go. However, all that means is you won't be able to sign off on the condition inspection--you'll need an A&P (no IA) for that. However, you can still do 100% of the maintenance without the cert so not having it isn't really a showstopper IMO.

[a6bn69]

Sounds like a plan, thanks. I will pursue this option with the seller.

I had read somewhere that if you could demonstrate sufficient knowledge of the aircraft systems that you could qualify for the Repairman certificate even if you weren't the builder. Not a showstopper, but just a thought.

[Sam Buchanan]

Sounds like a plan, thanks. I will pursue this option with the seller.

I had read somewhere that if you could demonstrate sufficient knowledge of the aircraft systems that you could qualify for the Repairman certificate even if you weren't the builder. Not a showstopper, but just a thought.

That is true but it requires a very cooperative FAA inspector for the interview and really detailed knowledge of the aircraft.

[Auburntsts]

That's true for LSAs as the maintenance certificate requirements are different than for E-ABs. For E-ABs you have to listed on the 8130-12 as one of the builders to be eligible, and then it's only for that specific airframe.

[Fokker Builder]

So can he help finish the conversion and be there for the FAA inspection to be listed on the repairman cert.?

Jim Gross

[martymayes]

My question - if the builder will submit the application and pass the FAA inspection so that a SAWC and operating limitations are issued, can I buy the aircraft at that point and complete the flight testing, and then operate the aircraft under that SAWC as the owner?
Yes


I'm comfortable doing the flight test (I'm an aeronautical engineer), and hoping the flight test experience will help count toward getting a Repairman certificate for this aircraft (which the original builder did not get). Am I pipe dreaming here, or should I just move on?

I looked at the FSIMS 8900.1 guidance for EAB repairman eligibility. Here it is:



5-1219 ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS.

A. Residency and Age. The applicant must be a U.S. citizen or an individual admitted for permanent residence in the United States. The applicant must also be at least 18 years of age, and the primary builder of the aircraft.

1) When a club, school, or partnership builds an aircraft, the FAA considers only one individual (such as the class instructor or designated project leader) for issuance of a Repairman Certificate for that aircraft.

2) An individual working alone who applies for a Repairman Certificate must build the majority of the aircraft in order to be eligible for the certificate.

B. Requisite Skill. The FAA will consider applicants to have the requisite skill to determine whether the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation when at least one of the conditions below applies:

1) The airworthiness inspector has knowledge that the individual builder constructed the aircraft. The inspector may accept information from another airworthiness inspector involved in the original aircraft certification and familiar with the builder’s expertise.

NOTE: The current edition of Advisory Circular (AC) 20-27, Certification and Operation of Amateur‑Built Aircraft, notes that amateur builders have adopted the practice of calling upon a person having expertise with aircraft construction techniques, such as Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) technical counselors, to inspect components and conduct other inspections as necessary. This practice has been highly successful in ensuring construction integrity. Therefore, FAA inspectors may use EAA technical counselors as resources in verifying the builder’s expertise.

2) The applicant presents satisfactory evidence, such as the aircraft construction logbook.

3) The applicant proves to the satisfaction of the inspector an ability to perform condition inspections and an ability to determine whether or not the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation.





5-1218 GENERAL. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 65, § 65.104 says the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issues Repairman Experimental Aircraft Certificates for individual builders of aircraft certificated under the 14 CFR part 21 experimental category for the purpose of performing conditional inspections. Part 21, § 21.191(g) defines an “amateur-built aircraft” as an aircraft “the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.” These repairmen certificated under §§ 65.104 and § 65.107 are in no way associated with repairmen certificated under § 65.103.

A. Primary Builder. The FAA may only certificate the primary builder of each amateur-built aircraft as a repairman. As such, the primary builder is privileged to perform condition inspections of the same scope as 14 CFR part 43 appendix D.

B. Aircraft Manufacturing Companies. Aircraft manufacturing companies that produce experimental aircraft are not eligible for Repairmen Certificates for amateur-built aircraft.

[Auburntsts]

And here's the 65.104 verbiage:
§ 65.104 Repairman certificate - experimental aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=1&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) builder - Eligibility, privileges and limitations.
(a) To be eligible for a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=2&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) builder), an individual must -
(1) Be at least 18 years of age;
(2) Be the primary builder of the aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=3&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) to which the privileges of the certificate are applicable;
(3) Show to the satisfaction of the Administrator (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=0c265d2e5b0cc0d1944056607ecc5df4&term_occur=1&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) that the individual has the requisite skill to determine whether the aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=4&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) is in a condition for safe operations; and
(4) Be a citizen of the United States (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=dec2d7b6c1dac5215137688ab8df200c&term_occur=1&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) or an individual citizen of a foreign country who has lawfully been admitted for permanent residence in the United States (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=dec2d7b6c1dac5215137688ab8df200c&term_occur=2&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104).
(b) The holder of a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=5&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) builder) may perform condition inspections on the aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=6&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) constructed by the holder in accordance with the operating limitations of that aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=7&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104).
(c) Section 65.103 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/65.103) does not apply to the holder of a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=8&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) builder) while performing under that certificate.

[martymayes]

(2) Be the primary builder of the aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=3&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) to which the privileges of the certificate are applicable;

All that's missing is a comprehensive definition for "primary builder"

[Auburntsts]

(2) Be the primary builder of the aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=3&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:65:S ubpart:E:65.104) to which the privileges of the certificate are applicable;

All that's missing is a comprehensive definition for "primary builder"

FSDOs, anecdotally, have been pretty liberal in their interpretation of "primary builder" especially in group builds. I for one would prefer to keep it that way.

[martymayes]

I would say they consistently follow the 8900 guidance:

1) When a club, school, or partnership builds an aircraft, the FAA considers only one individual (such as the class instructor or designated project leader) for issuance of a Repairman Certificate for that aircraft.

No participation percentages or min hrs actually working on the project, only generic qualifiers. Looks like it's based mostly on the honor system.

Nonetheless, I think (personal opinion) it would be difficult to enter the partnership after the aircraft is completed and be designated "primary builder"

[Frank Giger]

I would say they consistently follow the 8900 guidance:

1) When a club, school, or partnership builds an aircraft, the FAA considers only one individual (such as the class instructor or designated project leader) for issuance of a Repairman Certificate for that aircraft.

No participation percentages or min hrs actually working on the project, only generic qualifiers. Looks like it's based mostly on the honor system.

Nonetheless, I think (personal opinion) it would be difficult to enter the partnership after the aircraft is completed and be designated "primary builder"

Not without some very creative penmanship.

To be blunt, it sounds like the author of the thread wants the benefits of building an aircraft without actually building an aircraft; this is a dangerous proposition. The reason the builder gets the Repairman's Certificate is that he knows the aircraft from little bits of pieces to flying machine, and has knowledge of it beyond anyone else - even more than an A&P.

Every homebuilt is unique in its own way.

So the FAA has deemed that there are only two sets of folks that can judge whether an aircraft is fit for flight after repairs - the guy who actually assembled it and school trained and certified airplane mechanics. Of the two, the latter is at a disadvantage, as most homebuilts are similar but not identical to production aircraft. An A&P can refer to set manuals of repair and maintenance for a certified aircraft. None exist for experimentals, and indeed none of them truly apply. Yes, if one is using an aviation engine things are simplified - there are manuals for them - but none of the AD's apply.