Buying a Stolp Starduster Too

[dbegeman]

Hello All,
I am looking for some help. I am interested in buying a Stolp Starduster Too and would like any insight for things to look for during the pre-buy inspection and later during the condition inspection. Pretend I know nothing about pre-buy and condition inspections and nothing about the Starduster. Any help would be appreciated. It has a Lycoming 180HP fixed pitch prop.
Thanks,
Dan

[martymayes]

when was it built and how many hrs has it flown?

[rwanttaja]

You'd like a pre-buy inspection of the same basic scope of detail as the yearly condition inspection. Your A&P doesn't need to open EVERY inspection panel, but should open enough to gain insight into how well the airplane was built, and how well it's aging.

Remember, you'll need to GET a condition inspection within the next year, after you buy the airplane. Pay more up front so you have fewer surprises when it's your financial liability.

The single most expensive component on that airplane is the engine, so the A&P should spend most of their time forward of the firewall. Compression test as a minimum, examine the exhaust system, engine mounts, fuel components, etc.

Every type of aircraft have aspects that might wear abnormally or cause maintenance problems. You need to get involved with people who have actually owned Stardusters, and get their advice. The Biplane Forum (http://www.biplaneforum.com) has a Starduster sub-forum, I suggest you join (it's free) and ask the same question there. The folks there probably can point you to other resources as well.

Ron Wanttaja

[dbegeman]

when was it built and how many hrs has it flown?

199 hours built (I guess completed) in 2002.

[Dana]

Definitely post your questions on the Biplane Forum (http://www.biplaneforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=35). Dave Baxter, the Starduster guru, hangs out there, and he probably even knows the history of the specific plane you're looking at.

No serious gotchas, though, it's a fairly conventional design, wood wings and steel tube fuselage.

[martymayes]

199 hours built (I guess completed) in 2002.

Average = 13 hrs per yr. (not out of the ordinary for that type plane). That should help you set up an eval checklist.

Most of what needs to be checked to see if the value is equal to the selling price can be done with simple visual inspection.

[Tralika]

The EAA has some pretty good information on just what your looking for. Go to the EAA homepage, open the Education & Resources tab on the top of the page, open the Videos tab on the left side of that page and do a search for "BUY". You'll find multiple videos about buying Amateur Built Aircraft. I'm guessing it will take you several hours to watch them. That may sound like a lot of time so you'll have to determine how valuable your time is. The information could save you thousands of dollars and months of frustrating wasted time.

If it were me, I would ignore the time since the last condition inspection and have a new inspection done by someone that does not know the seller and has never worked on the plane. Negotiate your deal with the seller making sure he discloses all deficiencies he knows of. Find a competent A&P or better yet, IA that will perform the inspection & is prepared to sign off the aircraft as airworthy in the log books. Have only the inspection done. If any deficiencies are found that is the time to decide if you want to re-negotiate with the seller. If something is required that costs a few bucks to correct you might want to pay for it yourself. If something is found that will cost hundreds or thousands to correct either the seller can pay all or part of it, or you walk away from the deal. It may cost you a few hundred dollars for the inspection but you won't be buying a multi-thousand dollar problem. If everything goes well with the inspection either you or the mechanic can perform what ever maintenance is required and then the mechanic signs you off with a new condition inspection. NEVER believe a seller that says an airplane has a fresh annual or condition inspection and everything is OK. No reason to be rude but proceed as if everything they say is false until proven differently. Good luck.

[dbegeman]

The EAA has some pretty good information on just what your looking for. Go to the EAA homepage, open the Education & Resources tab on the top of the page, open the Videos tab on the left side of that page and do a search for "BUY". You'll find multiple videos about buying Amateur Built Aircraft. I'm guessing it will take you several hours to watch them. That may sound like a lot of time so you'll have to determine how valuable your time is. The information could save you thousands of dollars and months of frustrating wasted time.

If it were me, I would ignore the time since the last condition inspection and have a new inspection done by someone that does not know the seller and has never worked on the plane. Negotiate your deal with the seller making sure he discloses all deficiencies he knows of. Find a competent A&P or better yet, IA that will perform the inspection & is prepared to sign off the aircraft as airworthy in the log books. Have only the inspection done. If any deficiencies are found that is the time to decide if you want to re-negotiate with the seller. If something is required that costs a few bucks to correct you might want to pay for it yourself. If something is found that will cost hundreds or thousands to correct either the seller can pay all or part of it, or you walk away from the deal. It may cost you a few hundred dollars for the inspection but you won't be buying a multi-thousand dollar problem. If everything goes well with the inspection either you or the mechanic can perform what ever maintenance is required and then the mechanic signs you off with a new condition inspection. NEVER believe a seller that says an airplane has a fresh annual or condition inspection and everything is OK. No reason to be rude but proceed as if everything they say is false until proven differently. Good luck.

Thanks for all the insight!! I am going to get a pre-but inspection with an A&P but what is a “IA”? The airplane has not had a condition inspection in quite some time (11 years). I like the airplane but I am not going to get into something Imay regret later!

[martymayes]

wow, it's going to need a lot of work. I'd just negotiate a price I was comfortable with, buy it and go from there.


An A&P that holds inspection authorization is called an IA. Usually irrelevant to homebuilts. In fact, if they are not familiar with homebuilts, that will probably work against you.

[Sam Buchanan]

Find a competent A&P or better yet, IA that will perform the inspection & is prepared to sign off the aircraft as airworthy in the log books.

Just for clarification....an A&P can make the logbook endorsement for the Condition Inspection for an aircraft with an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate, an IA is not required.

[fixnflyr]

Dan,
MAKE Sure you have the Operating Limitations AND that the aircraft has had the proper sign off from Phase one to Phase two in the logbooks. Sounds like he paperwork was not a priority with this seller. Also the A/W cert. and logbooks. With out the Ops Limits you may find yourself contacting your local FSDO for a test area and having to fly off the test period hours to be able to sign off Phase two.

Swaid Rahn
A&P-I.A. Indigo Aeronautics, LLC.
EAA Tech Counselor
IF1 Racer "HEATSTROKE"

[DaleB]

The airplane has not had a condition inspection in quite some time (11 years). I like the airplane but I am not going to get into something Imay regret later!
Depends. Are you looking for something to fly, or are you looking for a project airplane? If you're looking for something to fly, you're going to regret buying a project airplane. If you're looking for something to keep you busy and maybe fly some day, then you're in luck.

And yeah, if you have not already asked about the plane on the Biplane Forum, you should.

[FlyingRon]

One of my neighbors owned a Starduster for several years. He wasn't the original builder, but he might have some type-specific wisdom to impart. If you PM me your email, I'll forward it along to him.

[dbegeman]

Thanks for all the input. The pre-buy didn’t go well...the engine has no data plate which raised a red flag to me. There is no serial number anywhere in any of the logbooks so I have no way of knowing which AD’s have been complied with and how much time is actually on the engine. I am probably gonna pass unless some more Documentation is found.

[Sam Buchanan]

Thanks for all the input. The pre-buy didn’t go well...the engine has no data plate which raised a red flag to me. There is no serial number anywhere in any of the logbooks so I have no way of knowing which AD’s have been complied with and how much time is actually on the engine. I am probably gonna pass unless some more Documentation is found.

Lack of a dataplate is pretty common with experimental aircraft, especially those built a couple decades ago before builders started putting new engines in their builds. If you really like the airframe, and the price is advantageous, an engine teardown and inspection is a fantastic way to build confidence in your new plane. It also gives you a basis for beginning a good log book which will be valuable when you are ready to sell the plane. Having a friendly A&P or someone experienced with the O360 along with the overhaul manual will get you headed toward having a good engine.

Best wishes for a successful pursuit of your new plane!

[Frank Giger]

Since AD's are only suggestions in the Experimental world, assume none of them were applied.

[martymayes]

Since AD's are only suggestions in the Experimental world, assume none of them were applied.

?????

[martymayes]

Thanks for all the input. The pre-buy didn’t go well...the engine has no data plate which raised a red flag to me. There is no serial number anywhere in any of the logbooks so I have no way of knowing which AD’s have been complied with and how much time is actually on the engine. I am probably gonna pass unless some more Documentation is found.

Interesting some people will remove a dataplate and think their engine is free of all regulatory requirements. It's still a certificated engine, a certificated engine with a missing dataplate. It would have to be a heck of a deal or I'd walk too.

[Sam Buchanan]

Interesting some people will remove a dataplate and think their engine is free of all regulatory requirements. It's still a certificated engine, a certificated engine with a missing dataplate. It would have to be a heck of a deal or I'd walk too.

Which Type Certificate would be applicable for an O-320E2D Lycoming engine installed in an RV?

[martymayes]

Which Type Certificate would be applicable for an O-320E2D Lycoming engine installed in an RV?

The engine type certificate is not altered by the airframe it's bolted to. There's not a type certificate for Lycoming O-320E2D installed in a Cherokee and a different type certificate for an Lycoming O320E2D installed in a Cessna or RV. The engine type certificate is the same in all three.

[rwanttaja]

Since AD's are only suggestions in the Experimental world, assume none of them were applied.

Can I give you my A&P's phone number, and you can talk to him? :-)

(actually, CURRENT A&P is an EAAer...)

Anyway, previous A&P required me to show compliance with a 40-year-old AD on my magnetos.

The last guidance I heard, is that it depends on the actual wording of the AD. If it says it applies to ALL aircraft using that item, you're stuck, even if you have an experimental. Any limitations in the AD note can be worked to your advantage.

However, if the data plate doesn't match what the callout in the AD says, it also doesn't apply. So if the engine data tag says, "Smith O-235," only ADs issued against Smith O-235s apply.

Ron Wanttaja

[martymayes]

AFS 300 issued an AC several yrs ago to clarify the AD saga. There was a brief flare up in the homebuilt community then the excitement died down and it was forgotten. Here is the applicable paragraph from the AC:


b. Non-TC’d Aircraft and Products Installed Thereon. Non-TC’d aircraft
(e.g., amateur-built aircraft, experimental exhibition) are aircraft for which the FAA has not
issued a TC under part 21. The AD applicability statement will identify if the AD applies to
non-TC’d aircraft or engines, propellers, and appliances installed thereon. The following are
examples of applicability statements for ADs related to non-TC’d aircraft:

(1) “This AD applies to Honeywell International Inc. Auxiliary Power Unit (APU)
models GTCP36-150(R) and GTCP36-150(RR). These APUs are installed on, but not limited to,
Fokker Services B.V. Model F.28 Mark 0100 and F.28 Mark 0070 airplanes, and Mustang
Aeronautics, Inc. Model Mustang II experimental airplanes. This AD applies to any aircraft with
the listed APU models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed auxiliary
power unit (APU) models installed on TC’d aircraft, as well as non-TC’d aircraft.

(2) “This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A.
This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed.” This statement makes
the AD applicable to the listed engine models installed on TC’d and non-TC’d aircraft


So for example, per para (2) if the Lycoming O-320E2D has an AD issued against it and the applicability section reads "This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed" does not matter if the engine is installed in a Cherokee or an RV-x, compliance is mandatory.

[martymayes]

However, if the data plate doesn't match what the callout in the AD says, it also doesn't apply. So if the engine data tag says, "Smith O-235," only ADs issued against Smith O-235s apply.

The caveat there is one can't remove or install a data plate without FAA permission.

[Dana]

The caveat there is one can't remove or install a data plate without FAA permission.

Sure you can, if you do it before installing it on the aircraft. Legally, you've disassembled a Lycoming O-235 and used some (or all) of the parts to build a new "Smith O-235".

Dana