Recovering a local B-17F Wreck

[Eli Josephs]

I've been entertaining this idea for a few months now, and want to get some input about how realistic this may be. I decided to make this post while I'm still thinking about how to start my crazy B-17 project.

In the mountains near me, are two B-17 wrecks. In one, all crew members died- A clear no-go. The other, however, most of the crew survived. I beleive 3 of the 11 were lost, 2 on impact and one afterwards. It is located in Pingree Park, Colorado.

here is the no-go crash: https://www.alltrails.com/explore/recording/b-17f-bomber-crash-site-pingree-park--2

here is the one I've been wondering about recovering: https://m.gazette.com/b-17-wreckage-a-haunting-hike-in-colorados-high-country/article/1522683

I discussed this on another forum but never came to a definitive conclusion. This is B-17F 42-30891 (tel:42-30891). It has very little of the fuselage left- Bulkhead fragments, and part of the tail enclosure. A large portion was removed by locals in the 50s for scrap.

This is a local hiking destination, but parts of the wings, and unusable parts such as radio equipment and aluminum that is mangled beyond repair would be left. A very small portion of the wreck is useable. This is the section that would have to be identified in order to get a replacement data plate for registration, etc. and be used as the base for the restoration.

Here are some pics http://imgur.com/a/1la6d


If it turns out that this wreck is not practical (which is most likely) I'm also interested in 42-29563 (tel:42-29563), a B-17F trainer that crashed after crew bailed out. It was buried mostly intact, and no casualties. http://www.aerovintage.com/229563_crash.pdf

[rwanttaja]

Anybody know who Eli would need to coordinate with, on something like this? Government still owns the airplane, so I assume he needs to get permission before recovery.

Ron Wanttaja

[martymayes]

Is recovering a wreck the only option? I don’t follow B-17’s all that close but over the ~40 yrs I’ve been around aviation, several have risen from the ashes. I always guessed there was a stash of components hidden away somewhere....

[Kyle Boatright]

Is recovering a wreck the only option? I don’t follow B-17’s all that close but over the ~40 yrs I’ve been around aviation, several have risen from the ashes. I always guessed there was a stash of components hidden away somewhere....

There is a network of shops which can build one from almost scratch. But there is no storehouse of parts...

[Eli Josephs]

There are enough parts to build one from scratch, but you wouldn't be allowed to fly it (except as experimental). By recovering a wreck, it's an actual B-17 rather than experimental. Of course, it's not quite that simple. I'm hoping to get some details here. For a wreck, you need to gain ownership, remove it, register it, make replacement ID plates based off of old paperwork... Probably much more than that.

[CHICAGORANDY]

How about a flying B-25 instead?

http://iloveww2warbirds.com/b-25h-for-sale/

[Eli Josephs]

How about a flying B-25 instead?

http://iloveww2warbirds.com/b-25h-for-sale/

If I was going to get a two engine warbird it would be an A-26, they are cheaper than most other aircraft of their size.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I think I saw an A-26 for under $400K recently? But the B-25 has more classic 'style' IMHO.

[Bill Berson]

There are enough parts to build one from scratch, but you wouldn't be allowed to fly it (except as experimental). By recovering a wreck, it's an actual B-17 rather than experimental. Of course, it's not quite that simple. I'm hoping to get some details here. For a wreck, you need to gain ownership, remove it, register it, make replacement ID plates based off of old paperwork... Probably much more than that.

You need an Airworthiness Certificate.
An owner can make some parts without FAA permission. There may be limitations on what an owner can make. If you have a complete wreck it might be straight forward for an owner with an I.A. assisting to copy a few bent parts. But if you need to request a new Airworthiness Certificate then you must ask the FAA. Good luck with that.

[martymayes]

For a wreck, you need to gain ownership, remove it, register it, make replacement ID plates based off of old paperwork... Probably much more than that.

Well, that’s another “gotcha” only a manufacturer can make a data plate. If you don’t have one, the odds of getting the LTC holder to make another is somewhat slim.

[rwanttaja]

One potential factor here is that the B-17 doesn't have Standard airworthiness....it's Limited category. Any advantages, there, in getting a near-scratch-built example flying?

Ron Wanttaja

[CraigCantwell]

At some point in the 50's or 60's, USAF struck off as abandoned in place every unrecovered wreck, other than those where crew members were killed. Unless the rules have changed, any USAF wreck stateside, that had a fatality directly in the accident, is still considered a war grave and remains as non-recoverable. For wrecks on federal land, the feds own them. For those on private land and not a war grave, they belong by default to the current land owner. For those that were USN/Marine Corp aircraft, or bailed to either service at the time of the accident, unless specifically struck off and transferred with documentation to a civilian owner, they belong in perpetuity to the museum at Pensacola. Want to test them on it and say they have no claim, then just look up Pirate Lex and the Brewster Corsair.:|

[Bill Berson]

Well, that’s another “gotcha” only a manufacturer can make a data plate. If you don’t have one, the odds of getting the LTC holder to make another is somewhat slim.
They might make a shiny one IF you return the old one.:eek:

[Eli Josephs]

OK, so I'm going to say that my local crash site can't be recovered. Two of the airmen were killed, plus it's a well-known site that draws visitors, meaning both data plates are missing without a doubt.

But what of 42-29563? No deaths, a largely complete airframe, both data plates likely still in place... I can't find (for sure) where it is, or who owns the site. Probably a good thing, because it means looters can't get to it.

[Floatsflyer]

A very fascinating subject and I'm impressed with the amount of knowledge being expressed by posters here.

As Sgt. Shultz said, "I know nutting" about this stuff but I am curious. Seems there's an awful lot of bureaucratic gobbilygook involved that would have you going through hoops until the next millennium and with no guarantees of acquisition. Instead of a wreck, what about starting a search for a neglected but mostly intact B-17 that's been derelect on some old airport apron sitting around for decades previously used as a water bomber or a freighter? Just a thought.

[martymayes]

They might make a shiny one IF you return the old one.:eek:

Yeah, lol tread carefully grasshopper.

[martymayes]

But what of 42-29563? No deaths, a largely complete airframe, both data plates likely still in place... I can't find (for sure) where it is, or who owns the site. Probably a good thing, because it means looters can't get to it.
Worth investigating?


Any wrecks in Canada?

[Kyle Boatright]

A very fascinating subject and I'm impressed with the amount of knowledge being expressed by posters here.

As Sgt. Shultz said, "I know nutting" about this stuff but I am curious. Seems there's an awful lot of bureaucratic gobbilygook involved that would have you going through hoops until the next millennium and with no guarantees of acquisition. Instead of a wreck, what about starting a search for a neglected but mostly intact B-17 that's been derelect on some old airport apron sitting around for decades previously used as a water bomber or a freighter? Just a thought.

There aren't any. There are maybe 15 flyers and/or ongoing restorations to flight worthy status. The rest are at non-flying museums, most of which are government owned meaning the airplanes won't ever be for sale. So your options are to build one from scratch (with or without a dataplate) or buy one of "the 15".

[Floatsflyer]

There aren't any. There are maybe 15 flyers and/or ongoing restorations to flight worthy status. The rest are at non-flying museums, most of which are government owned meaning the airplanes won't ever be for sale. So your options are to build one from scratch (with or without a dataplate) or buy one of "the 15".

Too bad, thanks for the info.

[Floatsflyer]

Any wrecks in Canada?

Not that I could find through some research. The RCAF acquired 6 B17's during the war. Two of them suffered substantial damage during ops in Canada and Europe and I couldn't find anything on the remaining four except that they were taken out of operation in 1946. Like most in the US they were probably scrapped.

[Rick Rademacher]

Talk to these people as they are doing what you are dreaming of doing-> http://www.champaignaviationmuseum.org/

They are living the dream!

[Eli Josephs]

Talk to these people as they are doing what you are dreaming of doing-> http://www.champaignaviationmuseum.org/

They are living the dream!

I have in the past, but they want to put all of their time and resources into getting Champaign Lady fixed up.

Ive been in contact with Desert Rat for a few months now, they are doing almost exactly what I'd like to do. I plan on helping out any way I can, I strongly beleive that getting an E back will be something of worth. I'm also interested in their C model, but that's on hold because it's on Federal land that wants an environmental survey of the wreck.

[jdingbaum]

I have in the past, but they want to put all of their time and resources into getting Champaign Lady fixed up.

Ive been in contact with Desert Rat for a few months now, they are doing almost exactly what I'd like to do. I plan on helping out any way I can, I strongly beleive that getting an E back will be something of worth. I'm also interested in their C model, but that's on hold because it's on Federal land that wants an environmental survey of the wreck.

I worked on the Desert Rat for 5 or 6 years worth of Saturdays in the late 90s and early 2000s. Not to rain on your parade, but it takes a LOT of time, money and man hours to bring these large birds back to airworthy condition. There are not many "parts on the shelf". Mike has had a lot of parts like longerons, tubes for the wing spars, etc manufactured and they are not cheap. Corrosion will be a common enemy. Intergranular corrosion will be worse. You will design patches and repairs using the both the AC43 guideline and the B-17 structural repair manual (I think that's the title, it's on my library shelf somewhere). You will become an expert at form building for molds. There is sooo much time that is spent creating tooling and parts that isn't even thought about.

However, if you don't start, you won't finish.

Jeff Dingbaum

[GrassStrip]

My thoughts:

1. Talk to Addison Pemberton. He re-built a Boeing 40C from a data plate up. The airplane is now in the WAAAM museum in Hood River, OR. He's on the board of directors. They could put you in touch with him.

2. Put your shoulder into an existing B17 project. The Collins Foundation just bought the one that was sitting in the Evergreen Aviation museum. The B17 Alliance is restoring the Lacey Lady at the Salem (Oregon) airport. At a minumum they could tell you what is/isn't available in terms of parts:

http://www.b17alliance.com/

3. Go for it. Too few people are brave enough to dream big.