Historical Accuracy vs. Modern Sensibilities

[rwanttaja]

We had one discussion kind of sidetracked over historical sensitivity; my thought would be to set up a separate thread to discuss it.

Here's our situations: How acceptable is the depiction of a swastika in these cases:

Case 1: An original or exact replica of an actual German airplane from WWII, such as a Messerschmidt BF-109 or JU-52.
Case 2: An original or exact replica of a license-built German WWII airplane, such as a Hispano HA-1109
Case 3: A nearly-full scale replica of a German airplane from WWII. For example, a Titan T-51 painted up like a captured P-51 or as a "German" fighter from the movie, "Fighter Squadron."
Case 4: A plane with a vague semblance of a German WWII aircraft but not anything near accurate. Think WAR FW-190, or a Bowers Namu.
Case 5: A plane with no relationship to Germany in WWII, but painted like it was.
Case 6: A plane from OUTSIDE the WWII period, including a swastika that is NOT the Nazi hakenkreuz.

Where do YOU think the line should be drawn? Be complete. Show your work.

Some water-muddying:

Case 1 is surprisingly gray. Martin Caiden restored a JU-52 in original colors, but replaced the tail swastika with an angled iron cross. Also, not all the new-production ME-262s got swastikas. But at least one went to Germany, where they aren't allowed to be shown.

Case 5 stems from a plane I saw over 30 years ago. Beautiful WWII German camouflage, including the swastika. On a Cessna 140.

Case 6, of course, is from that age-old edge condition: The insignia of the Lafayette Escardrille included a swastika on the indian's headdress. Other pilots in the Great War had non-Nazi swastikas as personal symbols. Some people are GONNA freak...how do you handle it?

Ron "Time to stir the pot" Wanttaja

[Dana]

Historical accuracy is more important than worrying about offending somebody. Case 5 is stupid (why would anybody do that?) and case 6, while absolutely acceptable, might take some explaining to the kind of people who want to ban Huckleberry Finn because of the language.

The question applies to models, too... I remember having the discussion with a recently emigrated Russian Jew I was working with when he saw a picture of an R/C FW-190 in a model magazine on my desk and asked, "Why would anybody build a model of a fascist airplane?" We're still friends 30 years later so I guess I explained it OK. :)

I seem to recall that the rules for judging scale models allowed the builder to reverse the swastika if they so chose, so it's no longer the Nazi version, without penalty. It may have just been a proposal, but I thought it was reasonable.

[Joda]

Ron,

Good subject. Here are my comments on each case....


Case 1: An original or exact replica of an actual German airplane from WWII, such as a Messerschmidt BF-109 or JU-52.

I vote for historical accuracy in this case. This is especially true if the airplane is an original example. Mark it with the correct, historical markings. Let the snowflakes have a meltdown if necessary.


Case 2: An original or exact replica of a license-built German WWII airplane, such as a Hispano HA-1109

Most people don't know the difference between the actual Messerschmidt and the Hispano, so using historically correct German markings is appropriate in my view. Most people will just accept that it's a Messerschmidt and find the markings appropriate.


Case 3: A nearly-full scale replica of a German airplane from WWII. For example, a Titan T-51 painted up like a captured P-51 or as a "German" fighter from the movie, "Fighter Squadron."

Personally, I don't have a problem with marking scaled-down replicas of military airplanes with the appropriate historical markings. I know some people get their undies in a bundle over such things, but hey, it's a replica of a warbird, so mark it as such.


Case 4: A plane with a vague semblance of a German WWII aircraft but not anything near accurate. Think WAR FW-190, or a Bowers Namu.

Same comment as Case 3. It's a replica, although significantly scaled down, so appropriate historical military markings are OK in this case.


Case 5: A plane with no relationship to Germany in WWII, but painted like it was.

Forget the Swastika. In general I think anyone who puts military/warbird markings on an airplane that is not a military type ought to be horse-whipped, keel-hauled, or otherwise beaten with a big stick. Seeing aircraft such as you described (the Cessna 140) or most any homebuilt other than the above-discussed replicas painted with military paint drives me nuts! I will give a pass to someone who was actually a military pilot and who marks his or her homebuilt with the markings of their old squadron, but that's as far as I'll go. Anyone who paints an Ercoupe like a warbird because they think it looks like a mini B-25 (or paints a C140 in Luftwaffe markings) is an idiot. Period!


Case 6: A plane from OUTSIDE the WWII period, including a swastika that is NOT the Nazi hakenkreuz.

This wouldn't bother me a bit, but I'm sure there are some who would be offended. But then, no matter what you do there are always some who will be offended. Some people go out of their way looking for ways to be offended. Screw 'em!

There, I guess that pretty much covers it!

[robert l]

But Joe, what about the people that paint their biplanes to look like birds and such, it's just personal preference. LOL ! Personally, makes no difference to me, it is what it is. But I think historical accuracy should be maintained, even if it chaps someone's a** ! It's the same with the flag, it's history, it happened, leave it alone.
Bob

[rwanttaja]

Joe, I seem to recall there were a few military Ercoupes. The ones in the RATO experiments?

A lot of guys do faux warbird jobs on Fly Babies, and I have to confess I like them. They range from WWI allied and German though the 30s ABC and Navy though WWII and the 50s USAF.

No swastikas, but one was painted like a Japanese Zero.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mark van Wyk]

An airplane emblazoned with the Nazi swastika would be totally inappropriate, even if it's historically accurate. Too hurtful and too many bad feelings from that symbol. Using that emblem is a provocation. Don't use it. Use an iron cross instead.
Interestingly, Imperial Japanese WWII planes such as the Zero had Japanese "sun" markings (a red disk in a white background), and that is still the official flag of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Japan), so that emblem would probably not offend or cause hard feelings. However, the "Rising Sun" flag and logo, which has the red circle and red sun rays emanating from it, is generally outlawed and despised, particularly in Asian countries that the Imperial Japanese occupied in '30s and '40s.
Speaking of flags, the Confederate flag is rightly seen as offensive by many in the U.S. I can't think of much good that can be said about the Confederate States of America. I notice that the strangely-named "Confederate Air Force" has changed its name to "Commemorative Air Force".

[Joda]

Joe, I seem to recall there were a few military Ercoupes. The ones in the RATO experiments?

Yes, that's right Ron, but none of them were painted like some of the ones I've seen flying around. I think they look ridiculous in military paint, but obviously not everyone feels the same way. So be it! I don't have to look at it!! :)

One thing that a lot of people don't think about when they choose paint jobs for their aircraft is resale value. Every airplane will be sold sooner or later (unless it's wrecked or scrapped). Either the owner will end up selling it, or his/her estate will. Oddball paint jobs can and do detract from the value of the airplane, so when someone paints an airplane with some off the wall scheme, whether it's military or the previously-mentioned bird, or any number of wild/weird/wicked paint jobs, one has to be prepared to pay the price for that "individuality".


A lot of guys do faux warbird jobs on Fly Babies, and I have to confess I like them. They range from WWI allied and German though the 30s ABC and Navy though WWII and the 50s USAF.

Yeah, I've seen some of those. And some of them don't look half bad. The thing does look a bit like a "between the wars" era airplane, so something from the 30s military doesn't look too bad on it. I can see where that might appeal to some. Not me though. I just won't do it. As always, your mileage may vary. :)

[Frank Giger]

On historical aircraft, no problem. Indeed, sanitizing history is pretty dangerous, IMHO. When one oohs and ahs over a FW-190, for example, it's good to remember who's toolbox it belonged to. The same for replicas.

Everything else, just weird. If someone wants to paint Nazi crap all over their Cessna 172 that's their call...but don't expect any praise from me. Especially if they're from Illinois. One has to wonder why in the hell any American would glorify the 3rd Reich is beyond me.

That said, I am completely hypocritical on painting aircraft in Allied schemes. Go for it. We are, after all, the good guys.

That's why I stick to WWI aircraft, back when we all hated and killed each other simply because it was the thing to do. Even then, I built a French plane because there were no American WWI scouts, only French planes flown by Americans.

[edit]

I found out after I built my plane that home building is actually something that's happened before, which explained why everyone over there (my parents immigrated, so my distant relations are in Germany) was so casual about it.

Here's my great uncles and their glider shortly before the war:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/uncles_glider.jpg

Bear in mind that this glider was at the 1936 Olympics as part of the demonstration team, and if one wanted a tow the symbol on the front did not hurt.

If I could find this glider and restored it, the nose decal would be on it, along with the Olympic rings.

If I were building a similar glider, or recreating it, probably not.

[Floatsflyer]

There are only a few absolutes in this world. Two of them are:

There are no good Nazis, and
The use of the Swastica symbol or emblem is a decision to be avoided at your peril.

The Swastica was an ancient religious emblem from 3000 plus years ago used by numerous cultures around the world. Until the late 1920's/early 1930's, with the rise of the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany, it was mostly seen as a positive symbol. Nazism ended that.

The Swastica, as co-opted by the Nazi Party in Germany, has ONLY been seen since as Nazi symbolism and an emblem of Naziism. It is viewed by the world as a symbol of genocide, crimes against humanity, unconscionable atrocities, racism, hate, white supremacy, mass murder, the holocaust, anti-semetism and terror. It does not belong anywhere in a civilized, intelligent, empathetic society. Certainly not to be used for something so lame and unmitigatingly useless as historical accuracy. History must never be forgotten, eroded or changed but some symbols of history will not be recognized and used any more.

Today in Germany and other countries, it is a criminal offence to publicly show the Swastica and Cross. In my province of Ontario since 1908 there has been a very small town named Swastica. The name still exists in some form although it is now a part of the town of Kirkland Lake, about 400 miles north of Toronto.

[robert l]

Well Float, Not a sympathizer at all but most, (the foot solider and pilots also) were normal people. They had boy scouts, went to church and had pretty much the same life as any other industrial country. For the most part, they were 3/4 through the war before they found out that Germany was the aggressor. They had been told that Germany had been attached, so they fought long and hard just like any country would do having been attached. Also, Italy's Mussolini, was as bad as Hitler, genocide, death camps, ect. but we don't hear about that. And what do you know, Italy's flag is still basically the same as it was during WW II. It doesn't matter what we think, people will paint their aircraft, car, tank, house, whatever, the way they see fit. Back in 1988 I had to name the dirt road I lived on in order to get an address with 911 capability. Some people would name it after themselves but I decided I had a chance to do something most people don't get to do. I named the road, "Podunk Way". When we moved I took the sign with me, it hangs above my shop door now
Bob

[rwanttaja]

There are no good Nazis....
C'mon, Floats. The British, Canadian, and US armies were engaged in large-scale production of good Nazis, up through May 1945. :-)


Today in Germany and other countries, it is a criminal offence to publicly show the Swastica and Cross.
I'm aware of the banning of the swastika, but what cross is banned?

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

An airplane emblazoned with the Nazi swastika would be totally inappropriate, even if it's historically accurate. Too hurtful and too many bad feelings from that symbol. Using that emblem is a provocation.

I certainly appreciate that point of view. However, I think Frank had a good point: The swastika says, "This is what Hitler had in his toolbox." From the point of view of anyone born after 1945, the Allied victory was inevitable. It really wasn't, and the capability and quality of the machinery in the Nazi tool lockers was a big part of that. Homer Simpson once summed up this attitude, calling the Nazis "The Washington Generals of the History Channel."

It struck home for me a couple of years back. My father-in-law passed on, and left me a rifle that his uncle had brought home from the war. Like any weapon, it has stamped proof marks to show it had passed qualification test.

In this case, the proof stamps are all the Nazi eagle-and-swastika. Little tiny swastikas, all over the weapon.

The war got a bit more real to me, afterwards.

So I feel they belong, in their proper historical context. However, it's true that the context is no always maintained.

Personally, altered alternatives bug the heck out of me, like Ercoupes in D-Day paint. :-) Caiden's modified eagle just seems jarring. I would sooner just leave it off.


Interestingly, Imperial Japanese WWII planes such as the Zero had Japanese "sun" markings (a red disk in a white background), and that is still the official flag of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Japan), so that emblem would probably not offend or cause hard feelings.
Odd you should mention that. The Fly Baby has the same basic layout as the Mitsubishi A5M "Claude," and I've toyed with a pre-war Japanese paint job.
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/stories/claudefb.JPG
However, where the Germans (for the most part) complied with the Geneva Conventions regarding handling prisoners of war, the Japanese did not. Tens of thousands of American servicemen were abused. I just can't imagine having the airplane at a fly-in when one of these survivors come by.

I've contemplated replacing the hinomaru with Army Air Force star and dot insignia, and marking the plane as if it were a captured Claude undergoing evaluation. Pete Bowers actually was involved in engineering evaluation of captured Japanese aircraft, I could add his name as the test conductor.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

However, the "Rising Sun" flag and logo, which has the red circle and red sun rays emanating from it, is generally outlawed and despised, particularly in Asian countries that the Imperial Japanese occupied in '30s and '40s.
Mark, the current iteration of the Japanese navy ("Maritime self-defense force") uses an almost identical rising sun flag.....

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

I'm aware of the banning of the swastika, but what cross is banned?

Ron Wanttaja


The Celtic Cross

[Frank Giger]

Bonus points to Ron for the "good Nazi" line. We sure did make a lot of them.

If you mean the Iron Cross, it's only banned in Germany if it has a swastika in the center. It's not widely used, however, as it is considered going against the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

Even then, if used in a historical context it is allowed in Germany....though permission must be granted.

Floats, we're of a like mind on the whole Nazi symbol thing - I think it's distasteful outside of a strict historical setting.

However, here in the USA we have the most broad legal interpretation of free speech of any place in the world. One could put a Hello Kitty as Hitler on their plane, and apart from some copyright issues it would be perfectly legal.

Frank "That's actually kind of funny in a perverse way" Giger

[rwanttaja]

The Celtic Cross
Gotcha, thanks. Had to look it up, but see what you're saying.

...However, here in the USA we have the most broad legal interpretation of free speech of any place in the world. One could put a Hello Kitty as Hitler on their plane, and apart from some copyright issues it would be perfectly legal.
Ga.... baaaaa....daaaa.....
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(sound of nearly-human brain stunned by the possibilities.....)

And the fun thing is, Hitler/Nazi parodies were fair game for USAAF nose art.

Hmmmmm......

Ron "It....could....WORK!" Wanttaja

[Bob Dingley]

Today in Germany and other countries, it is a criminal offence to publicly show the Swastica and Cross.
I enjoy the annual airshow at NAS Pensacola. The Luftwaffe usually displays a Panavia Tornado. Its assigned to the Luftwaffe unit that lives at Navy Pensacola. It is marked with the cross on the wings and under the cockpit. Also it has a small national flag on the Vert Stab.

[DaleB]

The German Luftwaffe's current roundel is the iron cross, in use by Germans for quite a while (without the swastika).

[Floatsflyer]

I enjoy the annual airshow at NAS Pensacola. The Luftwaffe usually displays a Panavia Tornado. Its assigned to the Luftwaffe unit that lives at Navy Pensacola. It is marked with the cross on the wings and under the cockpit. Also it has a small national flag on the Vert Stab.

In future, do not attribute things to me that I did NOT say. Read a thread thoroughly before you make a comment that you seemingly think refutes something I said. Look at post #14.

[Floatsflyer]

The German Luftwaffe's current roundel is the iron cross, in use by Germans for quite a while (without the swastika).

See my response in post #19.

[rwanttaja]

To translate into non-curmudgeon, the Celtics cross was the insignia used by Norwegian nazis during the war, and is used by some extreme right-wing groups today. I understand the ban, though I had been unaware of it.

Ron "Google is your friend" Wanttaja

[Mark van Wyk]

Here's my great uncles and their glider shortly before the war:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/uncles_glider.jpg


Oh, nice family photo. Charming. Thanks for sharing. How's your goose-step?

[DaleB]

See my response in post #19.
What?? I'm confused. I never even mentioned your name. I merely observed that the German Air Force currently uses the iron cross.

I did see your post (#14) but it didn't register... I didn't think the Celtic cross was banned anywhere. After doing some further searching, it looks like a particular perversion of it is indeed banned in Germany. The version used by those drooling idiots looks much more like crosshairs (appropriately, I might add) than an actual cross.

Silly me. When someone mentions a Celtic cross, I picture an actual Celtic cross, not... well... that thing.

[DaleB]

Oh, nice family photo. Charming. Thanks for sharing. How's your goose-step?
I had ancestors on both sides of the Revolution and the Civil War. Are you going to insult me, too? Take your best shot.

[wyoranch]

I am intrigued by what the scale modelers go in having the ability to use the swastika backwards. Still holds to the "history" without paying tribute of which there should be none. I am also curious about what percentage of people would even notice.

[wyoranch]

Oh, nice family photo. Charming. Thanks for sharing. How's your goose-step?
that is way out of line.

[rwanttaja]

Boys, boys, boys... I took Mark's comment as a joke, in middlin' taste. Could'a used a smilie to be clear though.

Ron "Do you haff relatives in Churmany" Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Frank's photo is incredible, and I'm insanely jealous. Best I could do is photos of relatives blotto in Irish pubs or Game and Fisheries mug shots. Though I'm hoping there's one of a Finnish cousin standing by a bunch of Russian heads in 1941.

Ron "ka iso hammi" Wanttaja

[Mark van Wyk]

Vee know nothing!

I'm a little touchy about pictures of guys wearing those suits, because a bunch of guys just like them killed 10 percent of the population of the town I was born in. Of course, my mother wasn't one of those killed, or I wouldn't be here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heusden


"...In the early morning of 5 November (1944), three German army engineers detonated explosive charges they had placed earlier in the 40-metre tower. It collapsed, killing 134 people. Only hours later, the 5th battalion of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders from the 51st Highland Division liberated Heusden.
Heusden was decimated. One tenth of the town's population died that night in the town hall cellars. Seventy-four victims, i.e. more than half of the total number, were children aged 16 or younger.
Witnesses have stated[citation needed] that on 4 November German soldiers carried explosives into the town hall tower, and also into two churches, a windmill, and dairy factory in Heusden. NCO (non-commissioned officer) Bottnick, who was probably following orders from commander Pfühl, a mining engineer, undermined the eastern part of the tower, ensuring that it would collapse on the town hall, not on the street.
Later, these events were investigated by the British Civil Affairs. However, this has never resulted in the trial and punishment of the war criminals Pfühl, Bottnick, and their accomplices...."

I'm not saying the guys in the photo had anything to do with it, but maybe I would have felt differently if the men shown in the photo had been wearing lederhosen.

And, to answer the original question, no, do not put swastikas on your airplane.

[Bob Dingley]

In future, do not attribute things to me that I did NOT say. Read a thread thoroughly before you make a comment that you seemingly think refutes something I said. Look at post #14.

?

[steve]

Is that an Olympics logo on the glider?

[CarlOrton]

Post #8 noted it as such. An Olympic demonstration team.

[Cary]

Looks to me as if some here would like to re-write history, and others don't care, and others are somewhere in between. I recall a similar argument (not discussion, but argument) on another forum having to do with vehicles, where folks who lost relatives to Japanese atrocities got their panties all in a twist because someone had touted the virtues of his Toyota. Someone else, a Ford owner, chimed in that "we should all buy vehicles made in America." Problem: that Toyota was indeed made in America, and that guy's Ford was made in the Windsor, Ontario, Ford plant. In today's global economy, it's almost impossible to "buy American" in the strictest sense. As for me, I've owned US built vehicles by both German and Japanese manufacturers, US vehicles built in Canada, and as it happens, German vehicles made in Germany and Japanese vehicles made in Japan.

C'mon, guys, let's be civil. WWII was a horrible experience for many, but it ended in 1945, 72 years ago. Most of the participants on this board weren't yet born then, and those who were, were infants or toddlers then. Many Americans lost their lives in WWII to both the Germans and the Japanese, but not all of those serving in the armed services of those countries were horrible people. For that matter, many Germans and Japanese lost their lives to the actions of American servicemen, and quite frankly, not all American servicemen were honorable people. There were good and bad on both sides, and it just happens that we're the side that won. That doesn't erase the bad on both sides, nor does it make our side a shining light deserving of unfettered praise.

My Daddy died in the service of his country, this country, after serving through WWII unscathed, in a horribly unnecessary P-51 crash in May, 1948, leaving a 26 year old widow and a 3 and 4 year old (me). That day is burned into my memory like it happened yesterday. For years, I was told that he was "hot-dogging" and got what he deserved, so I blamed him for abandoning us. That turned out to be lies, told to cover up the truth. Then the official military report was declassified, I obtained a copy, and I learned the truth. For years after that, I harbored hate and blame toward his instructor, who had required him to do a maneuver that was contrary to USAAF regulations and for which he had received no training. At some point, though, I realized that no matter who I hated and who was at fault, it wasn't going to bring him back. I stopped hating.

Let me tell you, hate only hurts the hater. Realizing that lifted an enormous weight off my shoulders. Stop hating those who you never knew, and that weight may very well be lifted from yours, as well. And for gosh sakes, stop blaming the children and grandchildren of "the other side" for what their ancestors did.

Cary

[Floatsflyer]

Best I could do is photos of relatives blotto in Irish pubs or Game and Fisheries mug shots. Though I'm hoping there's one of a Finnish cousin standing by a bunch of Russian heads in 1941.

Ron "ka iso hammi" Wanttaja

Found a very interesting Finnish reference yesterday that I did not previously know. Seems Finland traditionally used the Swastika in folk art and as decoration in its history. For reasons that are unclear to me, the Finnish Air Force used it as an insignia in a roundel from 1918-1945. If Finland was part of the Axis during WW2, I was unaware of it and that bothers me because, if that's the case, that's a material fact.

Maybe you can contact your Finnish relatives for more info.

[Frank Giger]

Oh, nice family photo. Charming. Thanks for sharing. How's your goose-step?

It is charming, as it was the last time these brothers saw each other, or their friend.

About half of those who went to war never came back. Some of my relatives were killed in Allied bombings.

As far as the goose stepping goes, not for me, thanks. My father immigrated to the USA and served 25 years in the US Army. I served 23 years in the US Army. So I think my bonafides are okay.

I feel absolutely no shame that they served in the German Army in WWII. Why should I? They were Germans and their country was at war. Those that didn't volunteer were drafted. Then again, I don't glorify the cause their nation fought for.

None of them were Nazi's. They were just simple soldiers. And the stories I could tell about their interactions with actual Nazi members would be pretty enlightening. This isn't the forum for it, but it wasn't positive, and one of my great-cousins was convicted by court martial and executed by the Nazis for speaking out on the ills of National Socialism (and a few other things related to it, including being a member of a clandestine swing band of all things).

The lens of history is sharply focused, but it was very murky, particularly leading up to the war. One could side with the government, which had given power to an Austrian Corporal, or with the Communists who were making a very real play to take control of the country. The Great Depression in Germany was a whole different animal than in the USA. In fact, the USA had many charity programs to send food for the starving Germans even as soup lines were being formed in the larger US cities.

At any rate it does nothing to try and hide or shy away from family history. It is what it is.

[edit]

I also have some relatives that weren't in uniform and suffered at the hands of Nazi's. On my Dad's side, his uncle was castrated, as he was epileptic, and they wanted to ensure he wouldn't pass on his defective genes. His epilepsy was due to a head injury suffered in a motorcycle wreck, but they wouldn't listen to it. But he wasn't shy about talking about why neighbors should never spy or report on neighbors, and what he thought of informers.

[Floatsflyer]

And for gosh sakes, stop blaming the children and grandchildren of "the other side" for what their ancestors did.

Cary

+1

Blaming the sons and daughters for the sins of the father is irrational, illogical and just plain wrong.

[rwanttaja]

Boys, boys, boys... I took Mark's comment as a joke, in middlin' taste. Could'a used a smilie to be clear though.
I apologize to Wyo, Dale, and especially Frank. He WAS Serious.

Geeze.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Blaming the sons and daughters for the sins of the father is irrational, illogical and just plain wrong.
Which is how the Holocaust itself happened. Jews of the 20th century were blamed for the actions of a few Jews nearly 2,000 years earlier.

Ron "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Found a very interesting Finnish reference yesterday that I did not previously know. Seems Finland traditionally used the Swastika in folk art and as decoration in its history. For reasons that are unclear to me, the Finnish Air Force used it as an insignia in a roundel from 1918-1945. If Finland was part of the Axis during WW2, I was unaware of it and that bothers me because, if that's the case, that's a material fact.

Maybe you can contact your Finnish relatives for more info.
The Finns *did* have a swastika for their Air Force insignia in that period. It wasn't the same as the German Hakencreuz; it was more along the lines of the traditional swastika.
http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/122/pics/78_1_b2.jpg
They are rather famous for being one of the few air forces that used the Brewster Buffalo as an effective weapon.

They weren't part of the axis during WWII, but they were in a hot corner. The Soviets were invading and trying to occupy the country. Supplying the Finns was seen as opposing the Soviet Union, so many countries were leery about selling military equivalent to Finland. This was especially true after Germany invaded the Soviet Union in in 1941, and the Soviets became one of the Allies. Supplying Finland was tantamount to helping the Germans.

The Germans did supply some equipment; the Finnish Air Force thus had Dutch Fokkers, British Bristol Bulldogs and Blenheims, American Buffalos, and German BF-109s in the same Air Force.

Never tried to contact the Finnish side of the family, though a Finnish peacekeeper emailed me about 15 years back. There is no "W" in the Finnish alphabet; the original family name was "Vanttaja." Finnish nobility of that name can be traced back to the 1600s. However, the area was mostly Russian, and the estates used slaves (e.g., serfs) who had no last times. When the serfs were freed in the late 1800s, they took the last name of their former owner.

So I've been trying to get on the list for those slave reparations.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[wyoranch]

Excuse my ignorance, but does the Finnish use symbolize the same ideology?
Rick

[Frank Giger]

Excuse my ignorance, but does the Finnish use symbolize the same ideology?
Rick

A thousand tiimes no.

[wyoranch]

Thank you Frank. Time to do some reading.....
[edit]
after a quick read I am amazed at the prevalence of the symbols use and more importantly the original meaning. So it should go back to the use by the Nazis and the association with all the horrific things they did.

[rwanttaja]

And on a lighter note....


However, here in the USA we have the most broad legal interpretation of free speech of any place in the world. One could put a Hello Kitty as Hitler on their plane, and apart from some copyright issues it would be perfectly legal.
http://www.wanttaja.com/kitty4.jpg

Ron "In before the lock!" Wanttaja

[Frank Giger]

Just masterful!

You know it's true because it's on the Internet.

[Mayhemxpc]

Ron, you have WAY too much time on your hands. Nonetheless, masterful!

can we see Lt. Giger's plane with Jessica Rabbit nose art?

[rwanttaja]

....can we see Lt. Giger's plane with Jessica Rabbit nose art?
http://www.wanttaja.com/kitty5.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

[robert l]

I have worked at a now defunct Duke Power coal plant that had valves with the swastika embossed on the sides. They were produced and purchased before the Nazi's were the scourge of Europe.
Bob

[BoKu]

I know of a Grunau Baby sailplane for which the restorer simply made two rudders--one with historically accurate swastica, and one plain. He simply changes the rudder to suit the context in which the aircraft is being operated or displayed. Because for something like this, a lot of the issue is context.

[rwanttaja]

I know of a Grunau Baby sailplane for which the restorer simply made two rudders--one with historically accurate swastica, and one plain. He simply changes the rudder to suit the context in which the aircraft is being operated or displayed. Because for something like this, a lot of the issue is context.

What's the typical context in which he installs the swastika tail?

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Interesting situation. Germany did a biopic of Hans Joachim Marseille, their top ace in Africa, during the 1950s. It's called "Der Stern von Afrika" (the Star of Africa). It's available with an English dub on Amazon Prime, or you can see a version with subtitles here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAUVgjT8R6M&t=0m5s

It is your classic flying film, of the "I hate sending these kids out to die" and "live like a fighter pilot" ilk. Politics are not a part of the story, though it's there in some of the backgrounds and of course the characters are wearing German uniforms with the swastika badges.

The movie used Buchons for the Messerschmits. The actual, physical aircraft have swastikas, but the models for the air combat scenes do not. I'm guessing they did the aircraft scenes in Spain, and the model work in Germany. Some good scenes with the actual aircraft (including a Storch), and we've probably seen worse model sequences.

Still, by modern standards, it's pretty pedestrian.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

I know of a Grunau Baby sailplane for which the restorer simply made two rudders--one with historically accurate swastica, and one plain. He simply changes the rudder to suit the context in which the aircraft is being operated or displayed. Because for something like this, a lot of the issue is context.

I too would love to know the definition, according to this poster or the sailplane owner, of what constitutes a suitable context in which the swastika is used and displayed on the aircraft? A white supremist rally like Charlottesville perhaps? A neo-Nazi party picnic perhaps? An airshow sponsored by a Swiss Bank and attended by only Argentinian depositors perhaps?

Because as you said, "because for something like this, a lot of the issue is context." No s**t Sherlock!

[rwanttaja]

I too would love to know the definition, according to this poster or the sailplane owner, of what constitutes a suitable context in which the swastika is used and displayed on the aircraft? A white supremist rally like Charlottesville perhaps? A neo-Nazi party picnic perhaps? An airshow sponsored by a Swiss Bank and attended by only Argentinian depositors perhaps?
Or an antique aircraft fly-in, especially one with judging involved.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Case 5 stems from a plane I saw over 30 years ago. Beautiful WWII German camouflage, including the swastika. On a Cessna 140.
It struck me this morning that I'd probably taken a picture of that airplane...and that it had probably been stashed in an old photo album that I knew was still around.

And...it was:
http://www.wanttaja.com/c140.jpg

That's a fighter paint job; the black dashes on the rudder are victory markings, and the wreath marks the award of the Knight's Cross for the shooting down of another 120 aircraft.

I assumed the red numbers on the side of the fuselage were the N-Number, and indeed, there's a Cessna 120 (not a 140) registered to N54JG. The paint job may have been inspired by the N-Number. JG (Jagdgeschwader) 54 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_54) was one of the top German fighter units in the war. It flew against the British in the Battle of Britain, against the Soviets in Operation Barbarossa, and flew cover for ME-262 operations near the end of the war.

I bet this is based on a specific ace's aircraft. However, it does not seem to carry the green heart logo of JG-54.

I'll admit it bothers me more today than it did back then. Picture taken in September 1981.

I looked up the N-Number, and see it's still registered...to someone at my home field! However, a picture taken in ~1998 shows it's been returned to a more conventional paint job. You wonder if the owner had had trouble trying to sell it.....

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0147/1221384-medium.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

[Mayhemxpc]

ROn, look under the wing. The green heart is there.

[rwanttaja]

ROn, look under the wing. The green heart is there.
You're right...I had dismissed it as a variation in the camouflage.

Ron "Blind pretty early on a Saturday" Wanttaja

[Mayhemxpc]

So the Cessna is painted as the Group Commander of the first group JG54.

The question of the Hakenkreuz is, I suppose a matter of taste. If I were building a small scale model, then I would (and have) put one on. Similarly for a flying model. (I had a nice Cox Stuka as a kid.) Full scale historic replica or type aircraft (e.g., a Nord made Bf-108) is another issue that I don't have a good answer for. I call to mind a line from "How to succeed in business without really trying." "You eat for yourself, but dress to please others." So what is the message you are sending? (You are sending one whether you mean to or not.)

As for me, some years ago I made my only effort at building an airplane: a pedal plane for my sons. I couldn't resist when I saw the planform of the "Scorpion" and modified it to a Bf-109E. Group commander, 2d Gruppe of an un-identified unit late summer/fall 1940. I struggled some time over the tail fin. Hakenkruez just seemed wrong for a kid's plaything. I thought of a black diamond or the red/white/black that was the official mark before the mandatory switch to the party symbol. In the end I just left it blank.

6743

[rwanttaja]

As for me, some years ago I made my only effort at building an airplane: a pedal plane for my sons. I couldn't resist when I saw the planform of the "Scorpion" and modified it to a Bf-109E. Group commander, 2d Gruppe of an un-identified unit late summer/fall 1940. I struggled some time over the tail fin. Hakenkruez just seemed wrong for a kid's plaything. I thought of a black diamond or the red/white/black that was the official mark before the mandatory switch to the party symbol. In the end I just left it blank.
Dunno, Chris...doesn't look just right blank, either. Need to add SOME sort of logo to the tail.....

http://www.wanttaja.com/pedal.jpg

Ron "Hail Hydra" Wanttaja

[Frank Giger]

So Ron would appreciate the small SHIELD logo tucked away on my plane....

I would hate to have to explain why I painted my C140 in German colors to a WWII veteran.

[Mayhemxpc]

Ron::-)!

Frank: I suppose it depends which side the WW2 vet was on in the war. But, as Ron stated above, these are different times now, and so many people are looking to be offended.

[BoKu]

What's the typical context in which he installs the swastika tail?

I don't really know. But I'd think it would be appropriate for, say, a museum exhibit about the social and technical contributions of gliding to an impoverished inter-war Germany, and how it became the foundation of Goering's Luftwaffe.

[Bob Dingley]

Ron::-)!

so many people are looking to be offended.
Your Airmanship:
You are so...so right, Chris! Look at the comments on this thread. The US Museum of Naval Aviation, P'cola has a ME 262 on display. They got it from Pax River. Pax River got it from Wright field. And they got it from fat Herman. Guess what it has ALWAYS had on its vertical stabilizer. Nobody has ever complained.

Bob

[martymayes]

But, as Ron stated above, these are different times now, and so many people are looking to be offended.

I’m offended by your suggestion some people are easily offended!!!

[Cary]

I’m offended by your suggestion some people are easily offended!!!

This is getting offensive! :)

But truthfully, the whole concept of "I'm offended because of something your grandfather or great grandmother did" has become ridiculous. Twisting words, blaming this person or that for not reacting the way you think they should or being as sensitive as you think they should, that's what is offensive. Yeah, horrible things happened, and they still happen, and that's too bad. But blaming others has gotten out of hand.
(Cary steps off of soap box)

Cary

[rwanttaja]

But truthfully, the whole concept of "I'm offended because of something your grandfather or great grandmother did" has become ridiculous. Twisting words, blaming this person or that for not reacting the way you think they should or being as sensitive as you think they should, that's what is offensive. Yeah, horrible things happened, and they still happen, and that's too bad. But blaming others has gotten out of hand.
You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught

- Richard Rodgers, "South Pacific"

Ron Wanttaja