Light Sport

[robert l]

Am I in the right forum? I've been thinking about re-instating my 3rd class medical, not denied, just expired for years. I have some medical problems that would require "Special Issuance", ooooooohhhhhhhh, sacry ! Well it is, and it's probably going to be expensive so I have also been thinking about just continuing flying L/S. So much so that I may sell what I've built on the CH-701 and just buy a used L/S. I learned in a 150 and have time in a 172 and I am completely comfortable in both, only they aren't L/S. I do have my tail wheel endorsement and fly a Champ on occasion, so a L/S aircraft that would carry 2 people and cruise around 80 mph would work, a little faster would be fine also but I know I won't be going anywhere in a hurry. I figure after selling the 701 stuff and my motorcycle I could at least get close to 12 grand with my meager savings. I know there are 2 seat Kolbs, Flight stars, Titan Tornados and other more expensive stuff like, KitFox, Avids but I know I'm probably missing some good stuff too. So, if this is the right forum then suggestions please. If it's not the right one, just steer me to it !
Bob

[Joda]

Hello Bob,

How long ago was it that you held a 3rd class medical? If it was on or after July 15th, 2006, then you would have the option of using the new "BasicMed" program. This would allow you to fly the Cessnas that you are familiar with. You can find all the info you need on BasicMed by going to the following EAA web page:

https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-advocacy-and-safety/eaa-basicmed-resource-center

[robert l]

Unfortunately Joe it was late '70's. I got my PPL in '74 and after a few years of flying, life got in the way. I started back about 5 years ago getting in a flight when I could until I finally got my tail wheel endorsement. After that I flew pretty regularly, but now that I'm kind of retired ( 71 tomorrow) I don't have my "Rat Hole Stash" to do the extra things I used to do. When I was working I got per diem and that's what I lived on while on the road working and paid for my extra curricular activities, flying, guns, ammo and fly ins. I'm not opposed to going back to work, the jobs usually last from a few weeks to several months and lots of overtime ! My wife, who's 15 years younger wants me to stay home because she says that out of the soon to be 29 years we've been married, I have been away at least 10 years of that. I don't know if I can ever finish the 701 so I'm looking to just be able to fly while I still can.
Bob

[Bill Berson]

If you can only afford Light Sport, why ask about a medical?

[robert l]

I have access to a 172 for fuel cost if I had my medical.
Bob

[Bill Berson]

Can't beat paying just fuel cost!
With access to a 172 for passenger flights you don't need to build or own a two seater. So build or buy a one seater. Or Ultralight.

[DaleB]

So... IF you can get a third class medical one time, you're all set. Find an AME, and arrange a consultation with him or her to determine IF you could, for sure, get a medical or not, or if you need an SI how certain it is you'd get it. DON'T even think about actually starting the process until you know for certain that you'll pass... because if you get denied, you can't fly Light Sport or anything else, other than ultralights. Maybe balloons? Gliders? I don't know about those if you've been denied a medical, and it doesn't matter if you want to travel anywhere.

12K is a good start, but not going to get you into most LSAs. But it will buy you part of a nice airplane. You might want to find one or more like minded people and become part owner or start a flying club.

[robert l]

Oh, I will definitely make sure Dale before I commit to it, ain't going down that road, life's to short. I'm taking my time about getting the necessary paper work so "IF" I decide to go for it, I shouldn't have to jump through my lower posterior at the last minute. There may be the possibility of buying into something like an Ercoupe or I could swing a Challenger or CGS Hawk my self. It seems a little crazy that I can drive a 20,000 lb RV down the interstate at 75 mph, blind in one eye, with no training while eating a sandwich but the weight difference between a Cessna 150 and Light Sport is a deal breaker. Oh well.
Bob

[DaleB]

It seems a little crazy that I can drive a 20,000 lb RV down the interstate at 75 mph, blind in one eye, with no training while eating a sandwich but the weight difference between a Cessna 150 and Light Sport is a deal breaker. Oh well.
Bob
Dude... do NOT get me started on that. Please, you really don't want to hear it. Let's just say the rules don't have to make any sense, they just "are".

[martymayes]

LSA rules were designed to accomplish a goal and being consistent with motor vehicle rules was not one of them.

[robert l]

Dude... do NOT get me started on that. Please, you really don't want to hear it. Let's just say the rules don't have to make any sense, they just "are".
Well, like I've said before; "Sometimes, just be's dat way" ! LOL

[dclaxon]

LSA rules were designed to accomplish a goal and being consistent with motor vehicle rules was not one of them.

And it doesn't matter anyway, because as far as I'm concerned, they missed the goal they were designed to accomplish, and by a wide margin. It was supposed to make "affordable" aircraft possible, but someone has a WAAAAAY different definition of affordable than I have.

Dave

[Frank Giger]

I'll take a stab at this, as I actually understand their thinking and why they arrived at the arbitrary number they did.

Short version:

The thing to remember in all of this is that the Light Sport Rules were never meant to be a substitute for the Private Pilot certificate, but something new and unique from it.

Long version:

While there was a lot said about "affordable aircraft" and "innovation" around Light Sport, the truth of the matter is that the FAA had a problem with ultralights.

Ultralights were getting "fat" and pretty high performance with no real way to police it, and two seat ultralights, thanks to technological advances and some really smart people, were up and coming. No pilot certificate is required at all to pilot an ultralight, and no inspection of any sort was required on the aircraft itself.

Pick any motivation one desires - a genuine concern for safety or an over powerful government agency seeking to wrap its tentacles around the last vestige of freedom in aviation - but the FAA looked around and saw how Europe handled light aircraft. Being Americans, they sought to adapt and improve them.

The compromise to the fat ultralight problem was to come up with a new program that would codify pilot training with relaxed medical standards and determine a new class of aircraft to fit within it. The ultralight pilots could get hotter aircraft honestly, the training requirements weren't onerous, and the limitations matched what they were doing anyway.

The actual upper gross weight, stall and cruise speeds, as well as other characteristics of the new Light Sport class were determined in conference starting from a blank sheet of paper. Current aircraft - both amateur built and certified - were not considered in the negotiations. Indeed, the 1320 pound gross weight number is actually higher than what was originally suggested. Big fans of metric measurements in that room, as it's a nice round 600 kg.

The LSA standards are universal, though, so if a production aircraft fell within the criteria it was open to Light Sport rules. Champs and Cubs were in, the Cessna 150 was out. It is what it is.

Furthermore, the FAA wisely decided that Private Pilot certificate holders could fly under Light Sport rules. This includes the medical portion - a PPL with an expired Class III physical could legally pilot an LSA aircraft with just his driver's license to cover it.

[edit]

The Light Sport program's goals worked a treat for me. I built my LSA compliant aircraft for less than 15,000 USD, and my pilot training cost around 5,000. So for 20K I'm a pilot up in the air. Even I can afford that.

[DaleB]

Oh, heck... one constant in life is that ANYWHERE you have to draw a line, there will always be "edge cases" that fall on the wrong side of the line for no really good reason. And those people will always be a little disgruntled and feel a bit ill-used, whether they actually are or not. In this particular case, I just happen to be one of those people. Light Sport or Basic Med - take your pick. :)

[Bill Berson]

No logical reason why there can't be more "lines" for different levels of pilot skill.
The Light Sport rules and the unfortunate ending of the trainer excemption has resulted in a lack of ultralight trainers in the 400 pound range. A net reduction of safety for the lightest end.

[robert l]

Very good explanation Frank, makes perfect sense. Now if I can find a 150 that only weighs 1320 lbs. LOL
BTW, What did you build!
Bob

[Frank Giger]

No logical reason why there can't be more "lines" for different levels of pilot skill.
The Light Sport rules and the unfortunate ending of the trainer excemption has resulted in a lack of ultralight trainers in the 400 pound range. A net reduction of safety for the lightest end.

Where the FAA screwed people over from the ultralight world was by NOT telling them well in advance that flight time they logged in ultralights (CFR 61.52) counts towards either Sport Pilot or Private Pilot certificates - and that includes for Sport Pilot CFI ratings. I don't know any ultralight pilots who actually log their flight time in the prescribed manner AND has those logs certified by an FAA recognized ultralight organization.

An experienced, logged ultralight pilot only needs 15 hours of dual training, as his solo work has probably already been done. He needs to take the written test, of course, and the check ride, but figuring 250 bucks an hour (instructor plus rental), 100 for the test, and 200 for the check ride (if the FAA isn't around to do it), we're talking just 4,050 bucks for the Sport Pilot ticket. Just five years ago I spent 200 bucks an hour (instructor plus rental), so mine would have been a grand less.

The somewhat naive notion on the FAA's part is that all those ultralight instructors would gleefully become SP-CFI's and just continue on. They totally misread the ultralight community on that score.

[edit]

There's a builder's thread - soup to peanuts (and a wreck and repairs) in the Homebuilder's section of the forum here - of my little Nieuport 11.

[1600vw]

Frank logged time flying an ultralight did NOT count towards any certificate. Never has never will. If the FAA would have allowed this then things may be a bit different from what we see today.

[Joda]

Frank,

You make a lot of good points, and give a pretty good historical overview. Here are a few more points to add to the discussion....


While there was a lot said about "affordable aircraft" and "innovation" around Light Sport, the truth of the matter is that the FAA had a problem with ultralights.

This is quite true. The discussions that ended up morphing into what became the Sport pilot/Light-sport aircraft rules originally were focused solely on solving the problem FAA was having with so many two-seat "ultralights" being operated under the flight training exemption that were not actually being used for flight training. At one meeting I attended, we were given an industry statistic showing that there were approximately 10 two-seat "ultralights" sold for every one legal single-seat ultralight. Certainly no need for that many "trainers", so they knew something was up that they needed to deal with.


The compromise to the fat ultralight problem was to come up with a new program that would codify pilot training with relaxed medical standards and determine a new class of aircraft to fit within it. The ultralight pilots could get hotter aircraft honestly, the training requirements weren't onerous, and the limitations matched what they were doing anyway.

The actual upper gross weight, stall and cruise speeds, as well as other characteristics of the new Light Sport class were determined in conference starting from a blank sheet of paper. Current aircraft - both amateur built and certified - were not considered in the negotiations. Indeed, the 1320 pound gross weight number is actually higher than what was originally suggested. Big fans of metric measurements in that room, as it's a nice round 600 kg.

The discussion was originally focused solely on the ultralight issue, and didn't involve certification of new aircraft, nor did it include any discussion on inclusion (or exclusion) of existing aircraft. In fact, the initial discussion placed the maximum gross weight at only 900 lbs! As discussions continued, the maximum weight got raised to 1000 lbs, and then 1100 lbs. By the time the Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) was published, the maximum gross weight had crept up to 1232 lbs. As we know, the final rule raised the maximum gross weight to what we have now, 1320 lbs. It could have been much lower!

The fact that the rule was written so that any existing aircraft that meets the LSA definition could be operated by sport pilots is really a bonus, since the FAA could have easily limited the sport pilot to flying only those aircraft that were specifically certificated as LSA. And no matter where you draw the line, there will be some aircraft that's just a bit over the limit, and people will say "why didn't they make it so that the [insert aircraft] was eligible?" But again, they weren't discussing existing aircraft, and the fact that they are included is a bonus that shouldn't be sneered at. Is the rule perfect? Probably not, but it certainly is a step in the right direction. As time goes on it may be possible to get the FAA to take a fresh look at the SP/LSA rule package and make appropriate modifications. Just keep flying safely so the data will so that SP/LSA is working!

[Frank Giger]

Frank logged time flying an ultralight did NOT count towards any certificate. Never has never will. If the FAA would have allowed this then things may be a bit different from what we see today.

We're both right and wrong.

Looks like it counted if one logged before 2013, when they ended the permission. Why they put a time limit on it is beyond me.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=40760189a03dfea0b501608f33820a45&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#se14.2.61_152


§61.52 Use of aeronautical experience obtained in ultralight vehicles.
(a) Before January 31, 2012, a person may use aeronautical experience obtained in an ultralight vehicle to meet the requirements for the following certificates and ratings issued under this part:

(1) A sport pilot certificate.

(2) A flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating;

(3) A private pilot certificate with a weight-shift-control or powered parachute category rating.

(b) Before January 31, 2012, a person may use aeronautical experience obtained in an ultralight vehicle to meet the provisions of §61.69.

(c) A person using aeronautical experience obtained in an ultralight vehicle to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating specified in paragraph (a) of this section or the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section must—

(1) Have been a registered ultralight pilot with an FAA-recognized ultralight organization when that aeronautical experience was obtained;

(2) Document and log that aeronautical experience in accordance with the provisions for logging aeronautical experience specified by an FAA-recognized ultralight organization and in accordance with the provisions for logging pilot time in aircraft as specified in §61.51;

(3) Obtain the aeronautical experience in a category and class of vehicle corresponding to the rating or privilege sought; and

(4) Provide the FAA with a certified copy of his or her ultralight pilot records from an FAA-recognized ultralight organization, that —

(i) Document that he or she is a registered ultralight pilot with that FAA-recognized ultralight organization; and

(ii) Indicate that he or she is recognized to operate the category and class of aircraft for which sport pilot privileges are sought.

[Doc. No. FAA-2001-11133, 69 FR 44865, July 27, 2004, as amended by Amdt. 61-125, 75 FR 5220, Feb. 1, 2010]

Joe,

I am just wowed at the creation and implementation of Light Sport rules - it's one case where the government came up with a pretty darn good solution to a problem and even solved a few more that were ancillary to the issue.
It made aviation a whole lot more affordable to me, and fit my needs as ideally as if I had written them myself.

[martymayes]

And it doesn't matter anyway, because as far as I'm concerned, they missed the goal they were designed to accomplish, and by a wide margin. It was supposed to make "affordable" aircraft possible, but someone has a WAAAAAY different definition of affordable than I have.

Dave

Well Dave, I have gone back and looked through initial discussions for Light Sport aircraft and "affordable" was rarely if ever directly mentioned in notes from those meetings. The primary goal of LSA was to attract new entrants with reduced pilot training/certification requirements and new technology ready-to-fly aircraft. For the latter, it was thought reducing certification obstacles would generate an influx of new aircraft. It can certainly be implied that cost was a factor because there was concern the price tag on a new Piper or Cessna ($160K at that time) was a barrier for growing a new generation of pilots. ASTM F37 was created to make a set of compliance rules for light sport aircraft and again there is nothing about "affordable" published there.

Fast forward a few yrs and we have $150-$175 airplane style LSA's rolling off the assembly lines. Or $60k-$75k trikes that to me looked like a $5k ultralight with 2 seats. So yea, I too was stricken by the subjective "affordable" term and somewhat flummoxed as to how this was going to be an "affordable" activity. However, it appears to be clicking along. For a new aviation related industry I don't think it has done too bad. Compared to other recreational activity industries it would be graded a total failure but this is aviation. Different grading standards apply.

[martymayes]

Frank logged time flying an ultralight did NOT count towards any certificate. Never has never will. If the FAA would have allowed this then things may be a bit different from what we see today.

Tony, could one not build an ultralight and operate it as an E-A/B airplane and log as many hours as they wish......??

[rwanttaja]

Joe was in the middle of the process and gave a great summary.

What a lot of folks don't realize is that the FAA already ANSWERED most of the questions...such as "why 1,320 pounds?"...back when they announced the final rule.

I've put the old Notice of Proposed Rulemaking up on my web page:

http://www.wanttaja.com/sportpilot.pdf

Yes, it's ~240 pages long. Put on your reading glasses. "Find" is your friend.

Ron Wanttaja

[Frank Giger]

Marty, I have never equated the terms "assembly line" and "affordable aircraft" in my mind.

True, I came to aviation late, and with a totally different mindset. Of course I would build my own plane, and a light one well within my beer budget, as there isn't such an animal as an inexpensive certified aircraft.

:)

[Exocetid]

Am I in the right forum? I've been thinking about re-instating my 3rd class medical, not denied, just expired for years. I have some medical problems that would require "Special Issuance"...

This was my scenario two years ago when I sold my Mooney and bought an S-LSA. All I need is a valid DL and I am good to go. The moment you visit an AME all that goes out the window.

As a side note, i am converting my S-LSA to E-LSA. Just a great retirement airplane (and plan to get to the UFOs (https://www.ufopilots.org) (on my bucket list).

[pbbon39]

My question is how do I become a Private pilot after having been a sport pilot for 450 hrs? I started out as a student pilot in 1989 and did everything except the long cross country, written an a Check ride. Then just went and got my sport pilot license.

[Joda]

My question is how do I become a Private pilot after having been a sport pilot for 450 hrs? I started out as a student pilot in 1989 and did everything except the long cross country, written an a Check ride. Then just went and got my sport pilot license.

Get with an instructor (not a sport pilot instructor) and figure out what aeronautical experience you still need to log in order to meet the private pilot requirements. Once you log the needed experience and pass the private pilot written test, you simply would take a practical test (aka "checkride") with a pilot examiner. Go for it!!