What the fourum should b and could be

[Bill Greenwood]

!, Just like when you are a visitor to Airventure and almost everyone is nice and gets along, that's how this forum should be. We should use it in a good mood and positive low key way and enjoy it. IT SHOULD NOT be a conflict or problem that Sam or some moderator has to be alert to and certainly not has to have a long set of rules that sounds like it was written by a lawyer with the worst case in mind. We just had a silly dispute when Randy, trying to be helpfull and a good guy posted the reference about Equifax and rather than use it or not some people started to criticize and it got to be a big thing. And it wasnt Sam who took offense.
2. I dont want to add discord. , I may have a strong opinion, BUT I HAVE NEVER TOLD SOMEONE THEY SHOULD NOT WRITE ON ANY TOPIC ON THE FORUM. I WELCOME ALL AND THINK ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HERE AND MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER, and Im not too fragile to hear another view.
3, Good manners would mean that no one tries to silence another here, if you disagree with his opinion do it politiely. Example one could claim P51 was the best WW11 fighter, maybe but I could point out that the war was half over before it was a factor. Both valid points. We have 2 ears and only one nose so try listening twice as much as sticking your nose in other people's post.If a post upsets you so much , read something else. Even if you didnt like Randy's post or see it as helpful it was doing no harm, wouldnt likely have made such an issue without people attacking it. My short post on shooting at a hurricane wasnt flying but was intended to bring a laugh.
4. Finally, Sam points out that as a private group EAA can restrict freedom of speech IF THEY WANT TO.
But also EAA could follow and honor the vital principle in first amendment, be an open, democratic organization. EAA would never cross the line of discriminating for religious or ethnic or gender or national origin reasons. So give freedom of speech the same respect, be sort a micro version of what makes us a great country. Its great that Sam says he has flexibility of judgment, I hope others relax and quit being so scared of anyones interest or opinions . After all we honor people like Bud Anderson that fought for such freedoms.
The forum is good, really an asset to EAA, but it can be better with a little help from EAA as well as us.

[jethro99]

Sad. Really sad.

Out of respect and some modicum of decency I am not exercising my freedom of speech to say what I really feel.

[Auburntsts]

Bill you must not frequent many other Forums. I do: AOPA, Vans Air Force, Pilots of America, Matronics, and BeechTalk are my aviation ones. They all place restrictions on posting in an attempt to keep things from devolving into anarchy. Some have specific subforums specifically for non-aviation topics, but they all put limits on what can be posted where. Personally I'd prefer we'd stick to aviation related subjects and leave topics like shooting at hurricanes for other forums. There are plenty of places where one can post about whatever interests them. Just because you find something interesting doesn't mean we will but that's OK, but it would sure be nice if the posts met the intent of the site which is to have a place to discuss all things EAA.

[Rod Schneider]

I'm also on a number of forums, both aviation and automotive related (those are my two main interests). Virtually every one of them have rules in place to spell out what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in the way of topics that may be posted. These are all "specialty" forums to one degree or another. I don't talk about my Corvette on the Porsche forums because those forums are not there for Corvette discussions. If I want to talk about a non aviation or non automotive interest, then there are other forums for these type of discussions. The EAA forum is also a "specialty" forum for discussing topics related to the EAA. This, in my opinion, is as it should be. One of my automotive forums did begin an "Off Topic" section some time back where there are no limits on what can be discussed, including politics and religion. It has degenerated into a sewer despite the best efforts to try and get people to behave. I'd hate for that to happen here........

[Floatsflyer]

Finally, Sam points out that as a private group EAA can restrict freedom of speech IF THEY WANT TO.
But also EAA could follow and honor the vital principle in first amendment, be an open, democratic organization. EAA would never cross the line of discriminating for religious or ethnic or gender or national origin reasons. So give freedom of speech the same respect, be sort a micro version of what makes us a great country.

Hey Bill,

Not all speech is free speech.

Here's a little primer on your First Amendment with respect to free speech...from a Canadian no less. It states, "Congress shall make no law....abridging the freedom of speech..." CONGRESS not EAA or any other entity. Huge difference.

Furthermore the last 241 years of case law and Supreme Court interpretations says there are types of speech that are not protected by the First Amendment. In no particular order they are:

Obscenity
Defamation-libel and slander
Certain fighting words
Child porn
Hate speech
Perjury
Incitement to lawless action
True threats
Blackmail
Solicitation to commit crimes
Verbal Treason
Plagiarism of copyrighted material

I think what you're advocating falls under # 7. (Just a joke :>) )

So EAA and every other entity can unfortunately restrict your freedom of speech which is not exactly guaranteed under the First Amendment. How 'bout that!

[1600vw]

Hey Bill,

Not all speech is free speech.

Here's a little primer on your First Amendment with respect to free speech...from a Canadian no less. It states, "Congress shall make no law....abridging the freedom of speech..." CONGRESS not EAA or any other entity. Huge difference.

Furthermore the last 241 years of case law and Supreme Court interpretations says there are types of speech that are not protected by the First Amendment. In no particular order they are:

Obscenity
Defamation-libel and slander
Certain fighting words
Child porn
Hate speech
Perjury
Incitement to lawless action
True threats
Blackmail
Solicitation to commit crimes
Verbal Treason
Plagiarism of copyrighted material

I think what you're advocating falls under # 7. (Just a joke :>) )

So EAA and every other entity can unfortunately restrict your freedom of speech which is not exactly guaranteed under the First Amendment. How 'bout that!

Only if your comment is related to or includes one of the listed:

Obscenity
Defamation-libel and slander
Certain fighting words
Child porn
Hate speech
Perjury
Incitement to lawless action
True threats
Blackmail
Solicitation to commit crimes
Verbal Treason
Plagiarism of copyrighted material

Anything else is censorship:
censorshipˈsensərSHip/
noun



1.
the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.
"the regulation imposes censorship on all media"
2.
(in ancient Rome) the office or position of censor.
"he celebrated a triumph together with his father and they held the censorship jointly"

[rwanttaja]

!, Just like when you are a visitor to Airventure and almost everyone is nice and gets along, that's how this forum should be. We should use it in a good mood and positive low key way and enjoy it. IT SHOULD NOT be a conflict or problem that Sam or some moderator has to be alert to and certainly not has to have a long set of rules that sounds like it was written by a lawyer with the worst case in mind. We just had a silly dispute when Randy, trying to be helpfull and a good guy posted the reference about Equifax and rather than use it or not some people started to criticize and it got to be a big thing. And it wasnt Sam who took offense.
2. I dont want to add discord. , I may have a strong opinion, BUT I HAVE NEVER TOLD SOMEONE THEY SHOULD NOT WRITE ON ANY TOPIC ON THE FORUM. I WELCOME ALL AND THINK ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HERE AND MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER, and Im not too fragile to hear another view.
3, Good manners would mean that no one tries to silence another here, if you disagree with his opinion do it politiely. Example one could claim P51 was the best WW11 fighter, maybe but I could point out that the war was half over before it was a factor. Both valid points. We have 2 ears and only one nose so try listening twice as much as sticking your nose in other people's post.If a post upsets you so much , read something else. Even if you didnt like Randy's post or see it as helpful it was doing no harm, wouldnt likely have made such an issue without people attacking it. My short post on shooting at a hurricane wasnt flying but was intended to bring a laugh.
4. Finally, Sam points out that as a private group EAA can restrict freedom of speech IF THEY WANT TO.
But also EAA could follow and honor the vital principle in first amendment, be an open, democratic organization. EAA would never cross the line of discriminating for religious or ethnic or gender or national origin reasons. So give freedom of speech the same respect, be sort a micro version of what makes us a great country. Its great that Sam says he has flexibility of judgment, I hope others relax and quit being so scared of anyones interest or opinions . After all we honor people like Bud Anderson that fought for such freedoms.
The forum is good, really an asset to EAA, but it can be better with a little help from EAA as well as us.

You seem to be forgetting something: Assuming that all the people you've insulted, maligned, and called names magically start to support you.

It would make no difference, because none of the regular participants here have the power to do anything. To use a childhood analogy, this is EAA's football...and we have to play by their rules.

Rules are, basically, a line in the sand. You want to erase that line and draw another one.

Fair enough. But a new line has to be actually drawn, and, in fact, has to be defined in a fashion that would satisfy EAA's lawyers. If *I* were advocating rule changes, I'd modify the current set and post them for review and comment. EAA STILL wouldn't be under any obligation to use them, but at least it'd be constructive.

BTW, replacing the current rules with "Let Bill Greenwood Post Whatever He Wants" is not likely to be approved by the EAA lawyers.

A lot of good commentary on free speech/first amendment. Paul Harvey probably put it best: "Your rights end where my nose begins." No private citizen, no corporation, no TV station, no newspaper, or any other organization can be forced to provide a public forum to anyone who demands it.

For those looking for context of this latest screed, it looks like Mr. Greenwood had another thread deleted. He posted it Wednesday, Floats and I responded to it, but when I tried to add a second response a bit later, the forum software said "Invalid Thread." It no longer exists.

Ron "And I had SUCH a good exit line" Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

Only if your comment is related to or includes one of the listed:

Obscenity
Defamation-libel and slander
Certain fighting words
Child porn
Hate speech
Perjury
Incitement to lawless action
True threats
Blackmail
Solicitation to commit crimes
Verbal Treason
Plagiarism of copyrighted material

Anything else is censorship:
censorshipˈsensərSHip/
noun



1.
the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.
"the regulation imposes censorship on all media"
2.
(in ancient Rome) the office or position of censor.
"he celebrated a triumph together with his father and they held the censorship jointly"





I'm not at all sure what you're saying here. Expand.

[Floatsflyer]

For those looking for context of this latest screed, it looks like Mr. Greenwood had another thread deleted. He posted it Wednesday, Floats and I responded to it, but when I tried to add a second response a bit later, the forum software said "Invalid Thread." It no longer exists.

Ron "And I had SUCH a good exit line" Wanttaja

Ya, I was ticked that one got the boot. The title was "What does anyone know about nuclear bombs". Bill's been face timing with Kimmy. :>). We and others replied with some damn good stuff! Bill thought that this was aviation related because of the bombs delivery systems. We pointed out a different opinion.

[Kyle Boatright]

The unsaid issue is that these off-topic threads are often controversial subjects (politics, war, global threats, foreign policy, fiscal policy, etc) which inevitably (by design?) turn into food fights in the forum. Those food fights ultimately polarize a bunch of airplane guys along the lines of liberal/conservative, republican/democrat, religious/agnostic, etc. At that point everything turns into a fight because "We don't agree on politics, so I'm gonna disagree with anything you post because I don't like your political viewpoint."

[Kyle Boatright]

Ya, I was ticked that one got the boot. The title was "What does anyone know about nuclear bombs". Bill's been face timing with Kimmy. :>). We and others replied with some damn good stuff! Bill thought that this was aviation related because of the bombs delivery systems. We pointed out a different opinion.

I kind of thought that was Bill begging the mod's to suspend his posting privileges. Nuke him, in essence. The mod's here exercise a lot of restraint.

[Floatsflyer]

The unsaid issue is that these off-topic threads are often controversial subjects (politics, war, global threats, foreign policy, fiscal policy, etc) which inevitably (by design?) turn into food fights in the forum. Those food fights ultimately polarize a bunch of airplane guys along the lines of liberal/conservative, republican/democrat, religious/agnostic, etc. At that point everything turns into a fight because "We don't agree on politics, so I'm gonna disagree with anything you post because I don't like your political viewpoint."

Spot on and well said. However, and this is very self-indulgent, would the forum allow me to get off just one shot every 2 weeks or per month against that "art of the deal" guy. It's really good for my mental and emotional well-being and acts as a coping mechanism. Please consider, thanks.

[1600vw]

The unsaid issue is that these off-topic threads are often controversial subjects (politics, war, global threats, foreign policy, fiscal policy, etc) which inevitably (by design?) turn into food fights in the forum. Those food fights ultimately polarize a bunch of airplane guys along the lines of liberal/conservative, republican/democrat, religious/agnostic, etc. At that point everything turns into a fight because "We don't agree on politics, so I'm gonna disagree with anything you post because I don't like your political viewpoint."

I started a thread on exercise so we may fly longer or for a longer period of time as we age. Try to find it. Censorship at its best. I say it depends on who you are if they censor you. Now I understand the man I met at an safety seminar. All these people were sitting together at one table then this one man was all alone at another table. i walked up and sat down and asked why he was at this table all alone. He said I quote, with what I fly I am not welcome at that table. I thought he was full of Cr#p. But no I see he was not.

While taking instructions or flight lessons my CFI came over the intercom and told me, not everyone is welcome as pilots in the sky. It is a elite group who they choose to let in. Again I thought he was nuts.

Today I see these two men hit the nail on the head or spoke true. Fly in the bottom ring where everyone flies over your head and they believe just that. They are over your head in both the airplane and in life. They are above you.

This is the problem and not off topic threads. If you don't like someone beat on them long enough until the Mods pull their posts. Simple way to remove the unwanted. At one time I wanted to shout from the roof tops that I aviate. Not so much today. The members or other aviators have taken the wind out of those sails. Other things in life to do with out all this flack.

Tony

[Floatsflyer]

I started a thread on exercise so we may fly longer or for a longer period of time as we age. Try to find it. Censorship at its best. I say it depends on who you are if they censor you. Now I understand the man I met at an safety seminar. All these people were sitting together at one table then this one man was all alone at another table. i walked up and sat down and asked why he was at this table all alone. He said I quote, with what I fly I am not welcome at that table. I thought he was full of Cr#p. But no I see he was not.

While taking instructions or flight lessons my CFI came over the intercom and told me, not everyone is welcome as pilots in the sky. It is a elite group who they choose to let in. Again I thought he was nuts.

Today I see these two men hit the nail on the head or spoke true. Fly in the bottom ring where everyone flies over your head and they believe just that. They are over your head in both the airplane and in life. They are above you.

This is the problem and not off topic threads. If you don't like someone beat on them long enough until the Mods pull their posts. Simple way to remove the unwanted. At one time I wanted to shout from the roof tops that I aviate. Not so much today. The members or other aviators have taken the wind out of those sails. Other things in life to do with out all this flack.

Tony

I'm not doubting that for whatever reason or circumstance or where you have happened to be, that you have experienced some form of dismissal and discrimination within a certain aviation community on the basis of what you fly. That's disgraceful. Discrimination does rear it's ugly head in all facits of life and activity unfortunately.

You say "it depends on who you are if [the Mods] censor you." That's a mighty leap and an exaggeration to equate EAA forum posts getting deleted with class distinction/elitism as you have suggested. You come to this overall, over arching conclusion based on a few anecdotal examples. You continue by stating "an elite group who they[whoever they are] choose to let in" and " where everyone flies over your head" and "they are over your head in both airplane and life." Bill Greenwood would qualify here in accordance with your thinking and attitude. Bill Greenwood is also a perfect example to illustrate my point that your premise is a gross generalization and falsehood.

You see, Bill owns a Beechcraft Bonanza and an extremely rare 2 place Spitfire. He has also owned or flown other Warbirds. I'm sure you would agree, based on your premise, that this places him in rarified air, the elite of the elite in the aviation community. And yet the Mods have no problem deleting his posts and threads when they are not aviation related.

Tony, if your premise is correct, please tell me how this is possible? How do you explain this?

[martymayes]

The unsaid issue is that these off-topic threads are often controversial subjects (politics, war, global threats, foreign policy, fiscal policy, etc) which inevitably (by design?) turn into food fights in the forum. Those food fights ultimately polarize a bunch of airplane guys along the lines of liberal/conservative, republican/democrat, religious/agnostic, etc. At that point everything turns into a fight because "We don't agree on politics, so I'm gonna disagree with anything you post because I don't like your political viewpoint."

Sounds like a lot of EAA Chapters ! ! !

What makes a good forum is a lot of participants, a lot of [on topic] discussion, a lot of opinions and since airplanes are hands-on, a lot of pictures that say "lookie what I did today!" Based on the number of members and size of EAA, I'm surprised the forums are not more popular than they are.

[rwanttaja]

I started a thread on exercise so we may fly longer or for a longer period of time as we age. Try to find it. Censorship at its best. I say it depends on who you are if they censor you.

I think the issue here on the EAA forums is that Bill consistently creates off-topic threads. Some are political in nature (nuclear weapons, North Korea, prominent politicians) others are just out of left field...the Indianapolis 500 car race, or a TV show he watched last night. He uses ridiculous excuses to justify them...such as claiming nuclear weapons were on-topic because aircraft can carry them. By that logic, anything but the Empire State Building and the Grand Canyon are fair game.

I don't see anyone else doing that. Here's the last 20 or so on Hangar Talk that weren't started by Bill:


I am a flight 'virgin' no more!
Don't make this Mistake. Emergency Freq
VIDEO: Turboprop Heavies - STOL in the Grass! AOPA Norman Fly-in
Doc
Equifax data breech
Should we Still Teach Old Tech???
Video: AOPA Fly-in - Norman, Oklahoma
What flight/engine instruments do we really need?
What's Your Plan? Building a GA Survival Pack
Wink JetBlue Turns Pilot Recruitment on it's Head.
Aerotech Engines Limited in Canada ??
VFR panel ideas ??
Question Operational Limitations (EAB)
Anyone needing to us eAPIS
Rocket science
When is a Medical Certificate Required ?
Developing your cockpit safety procedures
Flying during the eclipse...
Cons of the Garmin g3x


Other than the Equifax one (started by a new participant...not really his fault), these all are solidly aviation-based. And even the Equifax one was closed, not deleted, by the Moderator.

Bill DOES start on-topic posts. And no one complains or criticizes when he does, and even those he complains about participate. Heck, even my response to his deleted nuclear-weapons thread was nothing more than a straight answer to his question.

So the claim that new topics only get deleted due to "who you are" seems a bit weak.


Now I understand the man I met at an safety seminar. All these people were sitting together at one table then this one man was all alone at another table. i walked up and sat down and asked why he was at this table all alone. He said I quote, with what I fly I am not welcome at that table. I thought he was full of Cr#p. But no I see he was not.

While taking instructions or flight lessons my CFI came over the intercom and told me, not everyone is welcome as pilots in the sky. It is a elite group who they choose to let in. Again I thought he was nuts.

Today I see these two men hit the nail on the head or spoke true. Fly in the bottom ring where everyone flies over your head and they believe just that. They are over your head in both the airplane and in life. They are above you.

Back when Sport Pilot was proposed, there was opposition at my home airport. Pilots were complaining there'd be all sorts of new flyers and airplanes. They didn't want the airport to get busy.

And you don't have to tell the owner of a single-seat wooden airplane that there's stratification in aviation... :-)

Ron "Why do I always get parked by the porta-potties" Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

Floats, do you really believe I have posted "child porn" or that anyone else has on the forum? Or that Im trying to? If so please give me the quote or photo of mine. I have lots of magazines, but they are mostly about airplanes with maybe a football or skiing one or national news also. Ive never written or advocated about those topics way over a legal line.
Im especially surprised to see something so negative and so far off any topic that we are talking about from you of all people, since you have sent me several P M s in support of topics I wrote, like yours of 8-08. The big controversy last week was about equifax, not started by me and seemed to be doing fine with EAA ( Sam) until critics jumped on it. If I had to do over. I'd just ignore the critics. leave it up to Sam, But I met Randy briefly at Osh and can see that he is a volunteer and just trying to help folks with the credit info. He wasnt trying to sell anything or profit, and yes credit cards are a part of EAA just like tents or insurance or rental cars, both of which are in the brochure EAA sends out. EAA offers "Cash rewards Visa Signature card". The Equifax topic was not mine, but I did post a similar one a few months back when a friend had I D theft.Again, hard as it may be to believe, I was trying to be helpful, not selling anything. Even if you took the narrow view that credit cards are not related to EAA, or Airventure or flying, neither mine nor Randy's topic would do any harm. If you buy all your gas by cash as well as hotels,meals, EAA membership etc. then just ignore the topic. I dont think you can even use a self serve pump with only cash? If you never use milage points for travel or know someone who does then the topic was not for you. There are people who dont have a credit or debit card. but Is bet a $1000 that there were more credit cards at Osh than even tents or airplanes. Why else would EAA be marketing to our members?
Its not a matter of one specific topic, what I think EAA and this forum should be is a friendly place, just like Osh where lots of different people seem to get along fine. If my Mountain Flying forum there is not your interest there are lots of other things to do. Its evident that the spirit of friendship and all being welcome, is not how some people see the forum. Sort of reminds me of when I go to the park, I see lots of dogs running happily, but there are always a few people upset unless every dog is on a leash.
P S, 1600 , I liked your topic about biking, think it could have stayed, no harm done. And just like tents I have seen others write about where to get cheap bikes at Osh, etc.

[Floatsflyer]

Floats, do you really believe I have posted "child porn" or that anyone else has on the forum? Or that Im trying to?

Yes Bill, yes I do! My answer is as bizarre, twisted and insane as your questions. WTF are you talking about. This and the rest of your rambling and incoherent post makes me concerned for your health and safety when you are flying.

[Bill Greenwood]

Floats your post #5 on this topic list that and other exceptions to free speech and none of them, Hate speech, blackmail, seem logcal to this forum,. Is that your post or not? And if I seems "rambling and incoherent" maybe you arent familar with the brochure EAA puts out with credit cards etc, items in it. Anyway, I appreciated your two P Ms, from 5-11 and 8-08, agreeing with my topics, didnt mean to embarass you by mentioning them if that is the case,and why youve changed your response from supportive to hostile. And the forum asks to avoid profanity, even if the initials.

[Bill Greenwood]

Hey Bill,

Not all speech is free speech.

Here's a little primer on your First Amendment with respect to free speech...from a Canadian no less. It states, "Congress shall make no law....abridging the freedom of speech..." CONGRESS not EAA or any other entity. Huge difference.

Furthermore the last 241 years of case law and Supreme Court interpretations says there are types of speech that are not protected by the First Amendment. In no particular order they are:

Obscenity
Defamation-libel and slander
Certain fighting words
Child porn
Hate speech
Perjury
Incitement to lawless action
True threats
Blackmail
Solicitation to commit crimes
Verbal Treason
Plagiarism of copyrighted material

I think what you're advocating falls under # 7. (Just a joke :>) )

So EAA and every other entity can unfortunately restrict your freedom of speech which is not exactly guaranteed under the First Amendment. How 'bout that!

So, is that your post ?

[Floatsflyer]

No words, no words Bill. I will not dignify your ramblings and your inability to comprehend what I post with any answers. It will not help you. Once upon a time you were an intelligent and thoughtful contributor to the Forum but in the last little while you've become unbearably oppositional, incomprehensible and tiresome. As you live in Colorado, I'm wondering if you're visiting the legal grass shops much too often?

[cub builder]

Seems to me that it's time to nuke this topic as it has digressed into 2 fellers trading jabs.

Darn, I missed the Bomb topic. I've spent most of my adult life building them. Guess that's 'cause I can't check the EAA Forums from work. Our Automated filters at work classified the EAA Forums as a porn site and blocked it. I can't figure if that's for Airplane porn, or if I missed one of Bill's posts.

:D

[robert l]

Mostly I don't even read an off topic post but this one is hilarious !!! But, I think I will move on to the things that interest me more, mainly simple stuff. And as I heard someone say one time, "Sometimes just be's da way" !
Bob

[Frank Giger]

Okay, lemme wade in with a couple comments:

First, there is no censorship on a private forum, nor are there any First Amendment issues. Both censorship and free speech, as laid out in the Constitution, pertain solely to the government's restriction of speech. If the government was monitoring this, or any other forum and changing or banning content, that would be censorship. So while one can rail against the aliens spreading their brain waves through the microwave* in the public square and so long as they do nothing else, they can't be arrested and jailed for their message. However, they can be thrown out of a business or off one's front lawn without any free speech issues.

One has no rights of free speech in a private forum. Zero. The "my house, my rules" criteria is valid in an internet forum.

Second, I come here to talk aviation. I don't want to know if the guy on the other end is a wearing a hammer and sickle shirt or a Birch society hat; it will color my perceptions of what he's contributing. One's politics has zero value in the conversation on the best way to secure a cotter pin in a tight spot within the wing. There's loads of places on the Internet to talk politics, sports (RTR), quilting, and admire the male and female form in various states of undress: this isn't one of them.

Third, this is the EAA's official forum. What is written here, for better or worse, whether it's fair or not, is a reflection of the EAA. Where the organization is political, it is single focus and very bipartisan in aim. They've done a fantastic job of staying above the implication of favoring one party over the other to good results. The second an aviation special interest group is perceived as partisan, they've lost support for their cause from the other side reflexively, regardless of the merit of their case. Most official forums for large organizations are run with a tight fist, where criticisms of the organization are removed as soon as they're found - but EAA has allowed quite a bit of criticism of their work stand (and has responded to it in a very reasonable way).

Fourth, to sum it up, "take that stuff someplace else."

* Of course that's how the gov'ment, in alliance with the aliens, spread their brain waves and monitor us. Think about it: what's the one thing in your home where they say to never, ever use tin foil?

[1600vw]

IMHO if any forum be it here or anywhere does not want what is called here " Hangar Talk " they should not offer such. Simple is it not. Hangar talk is just that. What amazes me is those that want to push their view on what they believe this " hangar Talk " should be about. IMHO and according to the rules I read, it can be about anything that comes to mind.

Now if others don't like that write letters and have it changed. But don't bash those who use hangar talk for hangar talk.

Simple is it not.


Tony

[Bill Greenwood]

Frank, you invent complaints like " admire the male or female form in various stages of undress" and "wearing a hammer and sickle or Birch hat". Where do you find them on the forum? I havent written them. Maybe the male form in undress came from somewhere else. As for your anti quilting part, belive it or not there is a quliting group right at Airventure ,and Ill bet they arent trying to mind your business.Your complaints are as valid as if I griped about all the flight delays due to airlines at Osh or road delays do to all the horse drawn wagons or pay toilets or body scanners at hangars.
What do you like about the fourm? Do you like having a homebuilt section, or a vintage section? What about Oshkosh, like more showers and the new real restrooms and good wi fi service and being able to go inside miltary planes and airlnes at show center or ride on Tri Motor or have good shuttles trams or walk out to the fligiht line for warbirds or have type dinners at the museum, have a variety of food or good shuttles to Sea base, and workshops and fourms of all kinds, dozens of other good things?Taking a photo with Bud Anderson or Frank Borman? How about RIGHTS? You have NO RIGHTS to any of these things, but they are good things that make EAA better. I never wrote anything about having rights at EAA, what I wrote was that free speech is fundmental to what makes our country great, and EAA can and should be mostly and open organization, and so this forum and that is a choice and a value not a right. If I am driving a rent a car thru Airventure and see you or others looking tired or with a bag, I am going to offer a ride and thats not because you have a right. Or do the dozens of Young Eagle and veteran flights that Ive done , and it wasnt because they had any right to it. And just because your interest span is a cotter key wide, others may be broader. You can write about not taking passengers flying, Il read it or not but dont have to try to limit your writing that even though I think sharing flights are a pleasure and works both ways.
And this recent controversy on the forum was one nice guy trying to warn people , even you, about the Eqiufax risk, nothing about politics or undressed male forms or any other bogus complaints. Myself I asked a simple and straight forward technical question about the size of a current bomb, nothing about politics, and thought that fit right in with Airventuere where the two B-29 BOMBERS as well as the B-1 and B-52 BOMBERS were the focus of the show. As for reflecting on EAA,even their rules make it clear that our opinions are our own not theirs.

[Floatsflyer]

... write letters...
Tony

What's that?

[Frank Giger]

Bill, clearly we're writing past each other.

No offense meant, I just think we should keep topics aviation related, even tangentially, here.

[1600vw]

Bill, clearly we're writing past each other.

No offense meant, I just think we should keep topics aviation related, even tangentially, here.

This could be the problem....

[Frank Giger]

This could be the problem....

Let's just assume we engaged in a huge back-and-forth about validity of one person's opinion over another's, engaging in oneupmanship, eventually invoked Godwin's law, and absolutely failed to reach agreement on anything other than we disagree with each other on this one matter. It will save us both time and words. :)

I have no desire to go through that nutroll - as pilots and builders we have so much in common that it would be a harmful exercise - a point that I very poorly tried to bring across.

Here's an example of how non-aviation stuff can ruin an otherwise beautiful aviation relationship:

My CFI was great. I say that because in style of teaching and his ability to gauge a student's actual progress really meshed with mine. In fact, he was my second CFI, as I fired my first one - a young man who was a good CFI but very quiet and reserved, speaking very rarely and completely unflappable. This also made him unreadable and I had no idea what I was doing right or wrong most of the time.

So I interviewed another, and grinned at the first bit of sarcasm. My CFI was quick to give feedback both good and bad, laid out specific goals and was very honest on how well I met them. His goal was to train me to my check ride, yes, but it was clear he wanted me to be a good pilot overall, to look at the whole of flying, and put things into context. We got along famously, very professionally, even though we used a bit of "vernacular" to pepper our conversations. I can't say we became friends; the only reason we spent time together is because I was handing over a handful of cash for the privilege. However, it was never a chore (at least not for me), and we gained respect for each other.

One day I was talking to one of my pilot friends and mentioned my CFI with a glowing review of his abilities to teach a knucklehead like me how to fly and I got a very sour look.

"He's an atheist and a screaming liberal," the man said, "I can't see how you could stand to be in the same room with him, let alone share an airplane."

"Because he's a damned fine flight instructor," I replied, "that's how."

Well, I did pick up tangentially that my CFI was in fact an atheist and, by Alabama standards a "screaming liberal" during our time together, but we were pretty careful to keep our conversations to flying. When we went "off topic," it was in safe areas like our kids, the hilarity of marriage, and funny stories about work (Engineer stories for him, Army stories for me). I would characterize our relationship as professional.

Now, then, if we had talked politics or religion we'd of been at extreme odds, and it would have colored the reason we were together in a harmful way. Rather than working cooperatively towards a goal, an element of adversity would have been introduced.

I'm just trying to keep the same vibe here. Heck, you're a VW guy, and I'd love for you to go to my Nieuport thread and give your insight on my Diehl case over charging issue, and would accept your opinion with gratitude. More importantly, I'd like to keep the friendly Internet style relationship we have intact to where you'd want to.

[Frank Giger]

This could be the problem....

Let's just assume we engaged in a huge back-and-forth about validity of one person's opinion over another's, engaging in oneupmanship, eventually invoked Godwin's law, and absolutely failed to reach agreement on anything other than we disagree with each other on this one matter. It will save us both time and words. :)

I have no desire to go through that nutroll - as pilots and builders we have so much in common that it would be a harmful exercise - a point that I very poorly tried to bring across.

Here's an example of how non-aviation stuff can ruin an otherwise beautiful aviation relationship:

My CFI was great. I say that because in style of teaching and his ability to gauge a student's actual progress really meshed with mine. In fact, he was my second CFI, as I fired my first one - a young man who was a good CFI but very quiet and reserved, speaking very rarely and completely unflappable. This also made him unreadable and I had no idea what I was doing right or wrong most of the time.

So I interviewed another, and grinned at the first bit of sarcasm. My CFI was quick to give feedback both good and bad, laid out specific goals and was very honest on how well I met them. His goal was to train me to my check ride, yes, but it was clear he wanted me to be a good pilot overall, to look at the whole of flying, and put things into context. We got along famously, very professionally, even though we used a bit of "vernacular" to pepper our conversations. I can't say we became friends; the only reason we spent time together is because I was handing over a handful of cash for the privilege. However, it was never a chore (at least not for me), and we gained respect for each other.

One day I was talking to one of my pilot friends and mentioned my CFI with a glowing review of his abilities to teach a knucklehead like me how to fly and I got a very sour look.

"He's an atheist and a screaming liberal," the man said, "I can't see how you could stand to be in the same room with him, let alone share an airplane."

"Because he's a damned fine flight instructor," I replied, "that's how."

Well, I did pick up tangentially that my CFI was in fact an atheist and, by Alabama standards a "screaming liberal" during our time together, but we were pretty careful to keep our conversations to flying. When we went "off topic," it was in safe areas like our kids, the hilarity of marriage, and funny stories about work (Engineer stories for him, Army stories for me). I would characterize our relationship as professional.

Now, then, if we had talked politics or religion we'd of been at extreme odds, and it would have colored the reason we were together in a harmful way. Rather than working cooperatively towards a goal, an element of adversity would have been introduced.

I'm just trying to keep the same vibe here. Heck, you're a VW guy, and I'd love for you to go to my Nieuport thread and give your insight on my Diehl case over charging issue, and would accept your opinion with gratitude. More importantly, I'd like to keep the friendly Internet style relationship we have intact to where you'd want to.

[rwanttaja]

"He's an atheist and a screaming liberal," the man said, "I can't see how you could stand to be in the same room with him, let alone share an airplane."

"Because he's a damned fine flight instructor," I replied, "that's how."
I've known my best friend for ~45 years, we were CAP cadets together. We were best man at each other's weddings. One of the happiest days of my life was witnessing his wife pinning his first star onto his epaulet.

Yet we are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. If the conversation strays into something political, one of us says, "Ummm..." and changes the subject.

Sadly, the world seems to be lacking this kind of tolerance. Used to be that politicians from opposite sides of the fence could be friends. Not allowed, anymore; they'll be labeled traitors. A local extremist politician was asked about friends at the opposite side of the political spectrum. She was outraged that anyone could imagine she could be friends with one of "them."

Years ago, military officers' associations (such as the officer's mess in the Army or Wardroom in the Navy) imposed certain limits on discussion topics to avoid acrimonious debates in their closed societies. The basic rule was, "No discussion of politics, religion, or women." Not a bad rule, for forums that are dedicated to a particular topic.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

Frank, a good story, but not the case on our forum and topic. Where do you find in anything I wrote any debate on religion or even one about being liberal/conservative? I'll bet you $20 you cant find anything I wrote on religion except maybe one story/joke from a CFI forum at OSH. But if youve never prayed in an airplane, youve probably never been scared, or never had a friend or family reported missing or overdue or one who is dealing with cancer.

[krw920]

Frank, a good story, but not the case on our forum and topic. Where do you find in anything I wrote any debate on religion or even one about being liberal/conservative? I'll bet you $20 you cant find anything I wrote on religion except maybe one story/joke from a CFI forum at OSH. But if youve never prayed in an airplane, youve probably never been scared, or never had a friend or family reported missing or overdue.

Bill, it's not all about YOU!

Kurt W.

[Frank Giger]

Bill, my post wasn't directed at you in any way.

:)

[Bill Greenwood]

Then who was the person it is directed at? ?

[Floatsflyer]

Then who was the person it is directed at? Is there some other person on here who is not afraid of people having a mind and opinion and who is critisized for it?

There's something happening here
But what it is ain't exactly clear.

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep.
It starts when you're always afraid
The men will come and take you away.

Bill, refer to #34 and take heed. This is fast becoming One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest, something I'm sure no one wants to see.

[robert l]

I just watched "Cool Hand Luke" again the other night. "What we got here, is failure to communicate" ! I just wasted 15 min. reading all this, I'm done. LOL
Bob

[Frank Giger]

Then who was the person it is directed at? ?

Bill, always look at a quoted section in a post - it was to 1600VW.

[jethro99]

I hope the flight surgeon does not read this post. Could be hazardous to one getting his medical approved. Failed due to mental issues. Not fit to fly. Judgement is clouded.

[rwanttaja]

....Could be hazardous to one getting his medical approved. Failed due to mental issues. Not fit to fly. Judgement is clouded.
Wonder if I could get a "Magic 8-Ball" with phrases like that in it?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/8_ball_face.jpg

Ron "Outlook not so good" Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

Frank, your post # 24 on page 3 doesnt mention 1600 at all,. It does talk about things not on the forum. I may not hope for as narrow a focus as you do for the forum, but I can read precisely what people write. .I just think people should be more friendly on the forum, and not intolerant and critical.
Yes, I have written a few things that are general interest, just like someones( may have been Floats) recent joke about 3 men in a boat. Not all that funny, but so what no harm done.By the way, when I heard that joke after one of the men walked on water back to the shore to get the beer the other 2 asked him what the secret of walking on water was and the said. " You have to know where the rocks are"
If most of us,not Ron of course, were sharing a table at Osh Ill bet the conversation would be friendly and polite no matter if the topic was cotter keys, atc privatization, or safety netting at baseball stadiums. We could even debate why Texas Bar B Q sauce is so much better than that mayo with garlic from your part of the country.

[Frank Giger]

The supposed "white BBQ sauce" isn't. And I don't know anyone who would touch such an abomination here in Alabama.

:)

[rwanttaja]

If 10 of us were sharing a table at Osh Ill bet the conversation would be friendly and polite no matter if the topic was cotter keys, atc privatization, or safety netting at baseball stadiums...
Not at any particular table you pick, and not at any particular time you choose.

If you're at a welding forum at Airventure and loudly start to talk about the current political crisis, expect to be shut down quickly. If there's a roadable-airplane forum and you start loudly discussing your favorite BBQ sauce, expect some criticism. If Burt Rutan is presenting at a new design forum and you start to expound your excitement about the Indianapolis 500, expect to be shown the door really quickly.

Look at the common word in these three sentences: "Forum." Now, scroll up all the way to the URL. What does it say? "EAAFORUMS." What does the tab just below it say? "Forum".

If you want to chat about any other subject, join any of the myriad chat rooms or get EAA to start one. But the EAA Forums are intended to discuss aviation.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

[QUOTE=Bill Greenwood;65861Yes, I have written a few things that are general interest, just like someones( may have been Floats) recent joke about 3 men in a boat. Not all that funny, but so what no harm done.[/QUOTE]

Hey c'mon now. It's one thing to continually fight with me and all the others here about Forum appropriate subjects but when you question my sense of humour and joke quality, well that's an entirely different matter that I take really personally. That was a damn good joke!! Scores a 9 on the funny as hell scale.

Here's a buck and a half Bill, go buy a sense of humour.

[Bill Greenwood]

Ron, apparently my ideas, which seem common, are hostile to you, I wrote "freindly and polite" re sharing a table at Oskosh and you commented on "loudly" which is your word not what I wrote. I have met many people over 34 years at Osh and shared many a table, or tram with all kinds of folks, and cant recall any that were so upset at others. And Ive given a number of forums at Osh and Sun N Fun, and attended many others and never seen anyone shout down someone, even at the FAA one when there were hot topics. Icould say all EAA folks are nice, but that seems to upset you. They have been nice to me, with few exceptions, Yeager, whom many others have had problems with. As for wrting about Indy 500, it has lots of tie in to aviation, from fly overs by friends and EAA members to the first lady to race there, Janet Gutherie who is a pilot and friend. Even the ar B Q topic,all 20 words was related to the cafe at Osh, and Frank got that. This forum is by EAA, not Ron, and they felt my topic fit. My last post was addressed to Frank and do you think it would be better if you didnt read anything I wrote or us comment on each others post? I dont think we've ever met or if you even go to Osh but it seems like Packers vs Bears here.

[Bill Greenwood]

Floats, fine with me if you post all the jokes you want, even that one which had nothing to do with aviation. I heard some funnier jokes at Osh, but they are all x rated, often sexist or racist or political or all three and not ones I will reapeat I do wish we had a topic just for humor on this forum. And where do you define the line between a discussion, even one that disagrees and a fight, as per your word.

[rwanttaja]

Ron, apparently my ideas, which seem common, are hostile to you, I wrote "freindly and polite" re sharing a table at Oskosh and you commented on "loudly" which is your word not what I wrote.

Re-read what I wrote, Bill. I referred to speaking loudly off-topic during someone else's forum. If you're at a private table with friends, talk about what you want, but when dozens or hundreds of people show up for a forum on a given topic, the discussion at that forum should be that topic alone.


I have met many people over 34 years at Osh and shared many a table, or tram with all kinds of folks, and cant recall any that were so upset at others.

Re-read... oh, cripes, actually READ what I wrote, Bill. I referred to people showing up at a forum and attempting to drive the discussion in another direction. Not people sitting on a tram, or a picnic table in a non-forum area.


And Ive given a number of forums at Osh and Sun N Fun, and attended many others and never seen anyone shout down someone, even at the FAA one when there were hot topics.

Did the heated discussion have to do with the topic itself? That's not what I'm referring to. What I'm referring to is someone showing up and trying to hijack an official forum with another topic. If the topic is FAA regulation, I would expect things to get heated. But if they're having a discussion about FARs, no one should be jumping up demanding a discussion of our policy with North Korea. Like you have tried to introduce here.

The fact is, over ~50 years or so, there have probably been disruptions at EAA forums at Rockford/Oshkosh/Airventure. I suspect EAA is attuned to handling the problem.


As for wrting about Indy 500, it has lots of tie in to aviation, from fly overs by friends and EAA members to the first lady to race there, Janet Gutherie who is a pilot and friend. Even the ar B Q topic,all 20 words was related to the cafe at Osh, and Frank got that. This forum is by EAA, not Ron, and they felt my topic fit.

Well, who is the moderator of this forum? Is it Janet Guthrie? Is it Chuck himself? Is it Rudolph the Red-Nosed Raindeer?

Nope. It's Sam, and his boss, Hal. Neither Janet, Chuck, nor Rudy deleted your nuclear weapons post.

As I've said before, one can tie ANY subject into aviation. I think Sam's and Hal's actions cancelling several of your threads (and closing others) kind of indicates the kinds of subjects they expect here.

Now, consider. You've started several ON-topic threads lately. Have people tore into you? Complained? Called you names?

Nope. Think about that.


My last post was addressed to Frank and do you think it would be better if you didnt read anything I wrote or us comment on each others post?

"What, and give up show business?"

Ron "The Aristocrats!" Wanttaja

[1600vw]

My comment about " maybe this is the problem" was about people posting their opinion's instead of letting the rules or mods dictate the forum. This comment was not directed towards any one person for we all make or state our opinion's. As we all know everyone has one and all of them stink as something else we all have, even mine.
Some need to lighten up. Life is to darn short.
Tony

[Mark17]

I enjoy reading your posts Bill. Thanks for writing on a wide range of topics. It's always interesting and informative and I look forward to your next one! I think it's extremely important to learn from and listen to those who have something to offer. You're one such person I always enjoy learning from. Post away!