Getting your A&P

[mallen]

I have read several articles on getting your A&P by using your hours of working on your home-built and also being proficient in the hanger. My question is what can you really count towards your A&P from online seminars and even online schools?

[martymayes]

I have read several articles on getting your A&P by using your hours of working on your home-built and also being proficient in the hanger. My question is what can you really count towards your A&P from online seminars and even online schools?

Here ya go:

§65.77 Experience requirements.
Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator, of—

(a) At least 18 months of practical experience with the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment generally used in constructing, maintaining, or altering airframes, or powerplants appropriate to the rating sought; or

(b) At least 30 months of practical experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both the airframe and powerplant ratings.

Re: "Documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator" Go the the FSDO and have them define exactly what that is cause that's who you have to convince you have the requisite practical experience.

Online classes for A&P are not gonna happen.

[mallen]

I looked into Spartan College in Tulsa. They have the online side of classes that count towards the FAA hours but you still need to go there for 7 months to complete the practical experience side about 50 hours per each of the 15 3 college credit hour of classes.

[jam0552@msn.com]

I don't know if you can use online seminars or schools, but I got my A&P about 30 years ago by building an experimental aircraft, a replica of a 1911 Stahltaube, or "steel dove." I documented about 4000 hours of work designing, building and test flying the aircraft over a 3- year period. I worked closely with the San Jose FSDO and a designated mechanic examiner from Gavilan College. I needed to take the oral, written and practical tests at Gavilan College. So there are ways to meet the practical experience requirement without going to an accredited school.
Joel Marketello

[Bill Berson]

I requested a letter from each aviation employer documenting my total months on the job.
And a letter from the I.A. that signed off my Aeronca Chief restoration.

[mallen]

Thanks Joel. I will be building most likely a RV-12 but even doubling the time will still leave me short. I plan on having A&P's to come and do sign offs but they took the traditional way of schooling and have scratched their heads on online classes and seminars counting for time when asked. I would think that online seminars that count for AMT credit would count for time as would some of the engine classes you can take from the manufacturers. I do think talking to the FSDO might clear it up but still wondering if anyone recently went this route and fined out what was approved.

[jam0552@msn.com]

One other thing was an issue for me- turbine engine experience for the "P" rating. I got plenty of reciprocating engine experience but turbine engines are so valuable and scarce, that only accredited schools have engines to work on/study.
Joel Marketello

[Auburntsts]

Sorry to rain on your parade but don't kid yourself into thinking that building a modern kit, especially as one as easy as the RV-12 remotely gives you the experience anywhere near what you need to be a competent A&P. IMO building barely gives you the necessary chops to qualify for a repairmans certificate and I built a plane way more complex than a 12.

[gbrasch]

I am also under the impression that any work you do towards the hours for the license has to be under the direct supervision of a licensed mechanic who is on the work site.

[JoesPiper]

I have read several articles on getting your A&P by using your hours of working on your home-built and also being proficient in the hanger. My question is what can you really count towards your A&P from online seminars and even online schools?

I'll ask one question. After you think you have an "X" amount of training and after you think you have complied with the FAA requirements, if I ask you to perform various tasks on your practical with the correct tools and test equipment, could you do that? Answer, you would not be able to since you have no idea what tasks I will have you perform, meaning you would not have the available test equipment to perform various practical exercises because you have to provide everything, I just provide pen! You can be failed over one exercise - true story! It is no longer the 1940's. 50's. 60's, 70's, 80's, 90,s. Almost everybody attends school now unless you have a relative or neighbor as an examiner that will just sign you off. The airlines, you are restricted to only a few areas, so that never works but might save a class or two. General Aviation, you would be restricted as well. Its like the pilot that wants to learn how to fly thru Google Flight school. Sorry, but its reality.

[cub builder]

You can still get your A&P license based on practical experience. You need to demonstrate the experience. And it's best if you can walk into the FSDO office with a letter of recommendation from an A&P or A&P/IA with a lengthy description of your skills and knowledge with a recommendation to be allowed to test. I did exactly that about 15 years ago. The Airworthiness Inspector I talked to had no problem at all with signing off to allow me to test. By way of experience, I had been working hands on part time with light aircraft for roughly 25 years, primarily with engines and systems, and had completed one plans built (wood and Glass) E-AB aircraft and one kit built (tube and Fabric) aircraft by that point in time. Then it was just a matter of studying the books and practicing the writtens until I knew it cold. The oral/practical was quite thorough and roughly a day and a half long. If I recall correctly, the examiner had 21 subject areas, all of which I had to score 75% or better to his satisfaction by either demonstration or oral discussion to demonstrate knowledge of the subject with full explanations of my answers and/or actions. Failure in any one subject area constitutes a failure of the oral/practical. I have no hands on experience with turbines either, but I studied it well enough to recognize what was in front of me, and was able to fumble my way through the various tasks I was asked to perform. I didn't try to BS the examiner. I told him up front that I had no turbine experience, but had studied as much material as I could to prepare. I couldn't have passed with just what I knew from building the two planes, and I couldn't have passed based solely upon study. The many years of experience I had accumulated by that point in my life were every bit as important as the book learning and on line study.

If you are trying to base testing for your A&P solely on the experience of completing an E-AB aircraft, that's probably not going to make the cut. You need to bring some experience with dealing with certificated aircraft, some balance of sheet metal, composite and fabric work and your engine experience needs to be significantly heavier than having bought an engine and bolted it onto the plane. You really need to bring a balance of knowledge and experience with all parts of an aircraft as well as pertinent regulations and regulation compliance. However, if your experience satisfies the Airworthiness Inspector's criteria when you interview, which can be somewhat subjective, they will allow you to test. Beyond that, it's up to you to study and pass.

FWIW, I didn't use the crash course schools. You have to show up with permission to test if you use them. If you already have permission, you might as well study at home. That will work as well as going to their facility so you can study the same materials. They are just going to teach you the test, and they often times have an examiner on staff, which can help to shorten the oral/practical. However, in either case, it's up to you to study and pass. You can do that just as easily at home. I did.

[iterk]

I have been the Dir of Ed for a large A&P school and still occasionally teach at a local A&P school. I also still teach the "prep" course at FSCJ here inJacksonville ,FL. AFTER you get your FAA sign off I highly recommend a prep course at either your local A&P school if offered or at Bakers in Nashville or one of the variants. The exams are expensive and a solid (organized) week of review and O&P practice may seem expensive and time consuming but will save you the greater expense of trial and error.

Most of the above is on track but I will add a bit. First. Get AND WORK THROUGH...a set of current FAA written text books. They are relatively inexpensive. They are published under contract by ASA and others. Amazon is good or direct fm ASA. pn ASA 8083-30ATB or faa w same number is the General book, 8083-3V1 and V2 are the Airframe books and 8083-32 is the power plant book. The study guides for the three writtens are AMG- (the last two digits are the year. Anything in the recent 2-3 years should be OK) i.e. -15, -16,-17. This is the study guide for the Gen written w some guidance on the practical. The airframe study guide is AMA-(year) and the powerplant is AMP-(yr). You also need the current Practical Test Prep (faa-S-8081-26,27,27) this is a single small book but EVERYTHING in it is testable on your Oral and Practical.

You then need to buy and be able to find or know the key regs. For this you need a relatively current...-2017 or the 2018 faa regs FOR AMT. The pilot version will not do. In addition. All your work and study should be in accordance w faa AC 43-13 1b & 2b. This "bible" should be on EVERY builders bench. Having it just on the shelf means its not being used enough.

Being an A&P is harder than most think but it IS VERY DOABLE! It just takes investing time and learning and LOGGING... what you have learned/done. That 30 mos of mixed experience means the equivalent of160 hrs (40 hrs a wk x 4 wks) x 30. BUT. In the beginning even changing a tire or washing/ ground handling an airplane (done correctly) can/ should be logged.

Building an AB aircraft will give you much of that but you have to be using certified aircraft methods. I like the fact that a Zenith builds fast but "pop" rivets are not usually a certified aircraft method.

Gotta go evacuate the in laws fm Irma. Good luck

[martymayes]

Obtaining the practical experience, taking the tests and being a competent A&P are 3 different chapters in the process. They are loosely related at best.

To get past the first one, having "at least 30 months of practical experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both the airframe and powerplant ratings" I suggest visiting the FSDO in person and taking to the on duty ASI. Ask exactly what kind of documentation they will need, have them write it down and follow it to the letter. Walking in and saying you're hot stuff around the hangar with a wrench in your hand isn't going to cut it even if your A&P buddy verifies it in writing.

The current guidance in FAA Handbook 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 5, Section 2, paragraph 5-1135(B) says: "work on an experimental, amateur-built aircraft will receive evaluations on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements so it's quite possible building a plane might be adequate for testing authorization even if it doesn't match up with the 30 months part. It's one of those things that needs to be brought up in a discussion with an ASI. "What do I need to document and how much" is what you need to know so don't guess or take what SGOTI says as gospel.

They don't expect you to know everything there is to know so complexity of the project, yup, let them decide yea or nay. Taking the oral and practical test is when you will need to know everything there is to know, lol. The computer knowledge testing is pretty easy. The oral and practical exam for my airframe test lasted 7 hrs and was very intense at times. It did include a lunch break so it wasn't 7 hrs of continuous examining. I agree with the DME fees. One of my A&P instructors has been a DME for many yrs and the guys he test with no prep (military) have a very low first time pass rate.

[Kurt Flunkn]

The current guidance in FAA Handbook 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 5, Section 2, paragraph 5-1135(B) says: "work on an experimental, amateur-built aircraft will receive evaluations on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements so it's quite possible building a plane might be adequate for testing authorization even if it doesn't match up with the 30 months part. It's one of those things that needs to be brought up in a discussion with an ASI. "What do I need to document and how much" is what you need to know so don't guess or take what SGOTI says as gospel.

This paragraph is for "Evaluating Military Experience" and does not apply to applicants by civil experience. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, but Marty is the closest. There are three ways to meet the experience required by FAR 65.77: FAA approved technical school (FAR 147), by military experience, or by civil experience.

FAA FSIMS are here http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch5,Sec2
Paragraph 5-1135 (G) is for "programs without approval " and states:
G. Programs without Approval. Applicants who have not graduated from an FAA-approved AMTS or JSAMTCC A&P certification program must present documents from an employer, coworker, or other sources satisfactory to the Administrator to establish the required record of time and experience.1) Applicants will document a proportionate amount of experience directly applicable to the certificate and ratings sought. The applicant must have verifiable experience in 50 percent of the subject areas listed for the rating sought (refer to part 147 appendices B, C, and D) in order to be eligible.2) The FAA inspector must evaluate the documents submitted to determine the applicants’ eligibility for a test authorization.3) There is no expiration for this eligibility.I did my A&P using this method and the 30 month requirement from paragraph E for "part time practical experience " still applied as did paragraphs A and C. Showing 50% experience in the FAR 147 subject areas is not an easy task but it can be done. Remember that this only gets you the sign-off to take the three written exams and the oral & practical exam all if which you must pass. About two years ago FAA changed the way the oral & practical exam is administered. It is now randomly generated by an FAA server in Oklahoma City at the start of the exam, but this is another subject. Oh and by the way, work on experimental aircraft can count as long as satisfactory documentation is presented; paragraph A does not distinguish the type of aircraft.

[L16 Pilot]

Personally I would like to see some aircraft be put in owner maintenance. It gets harder and harder to find a IA who knows the older tube and fabric aircraft such as Taylorcraft, Aeroncas, J-3, etc. Take to the "big shop up the road" and they're learning on your dime (make that dollar$). Having spent most of my life as a diesel mechanic including 30 years teaching the subject at the local community college plus rebuilding and recovering 3-4 of these puppies (with IA supervision) I pretty much know my way around machinery and these are machinery only of a different type. I would suggest some kind of a limited certification such as we have in the heavy duty truck field (ASE) where a person is "certified" in different areas as needed. One who owns a Cub or Champ hardly needs turbine or controllable propeller experience and as far as engines go my Honda cycle is more complex than the typical Continental C65-0200.

[mallen]

I thank you all for the comments. A lot of naysayers and doomsday people out there in the crowd. It is not that I don't see most of the points maybe even some of the negativity from the comments. It comes down to taking my time and documenting the experience and the knowledge and the sources of the knowledge. I have degrees in manufacturing, fire science, to nursing and work as a paramedic full-time. It has been difficult finding a school and then a local school that would allow me to take only one or two classes a semester and work towards my goal. The response is been mainly "We cannot do it that way." Meaning they are accredited schools that have to watch the bottom line of ratio of students passing and failing the exams to keep their accreditation. This makes part-time students like me a liability and makes it harder for a working person who wants or needs to move a little slower to finish. Even a school with online classes still wants me to take 7 months off straight to finish the practical portion (not complaining about the time, would love to do 3 week stints, working it into a life is the problem) I did like the google comment made me chuckle. I can only guess all those WW2 movies on how to fly and how to fix those planes did not help qualify those men and women? Visual teaching has been a large part of the learning process for about as long as the first teacher drew a circle in the dirt and called it round but by no means does it take away from the actual hands on but, you have to start somewhere to learn. So once again thank you for the comments and the private messages that gave resources and other avenues to track down. By no means will this be easy, but at the same time I am not in a hurry as one article pointed out is like eating a elephant one small bite at a time.

[mallen]

Yes! It takes a lot of little things but making sure the little things count before starting can make it so much easier down the road. There are several 2-3 week cram session type schools that take you over the potential FAA practical exams one by one so they are fresh for your test.

[mallen]

[QUOTE=iterk;65435]I have been the Dir of Ed for a large A&P school and still occasionally teach at a local A&P school. I also still teach the "prep" course at FSCJ here inJacksonville ,FL. AFTER you get your FAA sign off I highly recommend a prep course at either your local A&P school if offered or at Bakers in Nashville or one of the variants. The exams are expensive and a solid (organized) week of review and O&P practice may seem expensive and time consuming but will save you the greater expense of trial and error.

Most of the above is on track but I will add a bit. First. Get AND WORK THROUGH...a set of current FAA written text books. They are relatively inexpensive. They are published under contract by ASA and others. Amazon is good or direct fm ASA. pn ASA 8083-30ATB or faa w same number is the General book, 8083-3V1 and V2 are the Airframe books and 8083-32 is the power plant book. The study guides for the three writtens are AMG- (the last two digits are the year. Anything in the recent 2-3 years should be OK) i.e. -15, -16,-17. This is the study guide for the Gen written w some guidance on the practical. The airframe study guide is AMA-(year) and the powerplant is AMP-(yr). You also need the current Practical Test Prep (faa-S-8081-26,27,27) this is a single small book but EVERYTHING in it is testable on your Oral and Practical.

You then need to buy and be able to find or know the key regs. For this you need a relatively current...-2017 or the 2018 faa regs FOR AMT. The pilot version will not do. In addition. All your work and study should be in accordance w faa AC 43-13 1b & 2b. This "bible" should be on EVERY builders bench. Having it just on the shelf means its not being used enough.

Being an A&P is harder than most think but it IS VERY DOABLE! It just takes investing time and learning and LOGGING... what you have learned/done. That 30 mos of mixed experience means the equivalent of160 hrs (40 hrs a wk x 4 wks) x 30. BUT. In the beginning even changing a tire or washing/ ground handling an airplane (done correctly) can/ should be logged.

Building an AB aircraft will give you much of that but you have to be using certified aircraft methods. I like the fact that a Zenith builds fast but "pop" rivets are not usually a certified aircraft method.

Gotta go evacuate the in laws fm Irma. Good luck[/QUOTE
Thank you. All valid points.

[Bill Berson]

Thanks Joel. I will be building most likely a RV-12 but even doubling the time will still leave me short. I plan on having A&P's to come and do sign offs but they took the traditional way of schooling and have scratched their heads on online classes and seminars counting for time when asked. I would think that online seminars that count for AMT credit would count for time as would some of the engine classes you can take from the manufacturers. I do think talking to the FSDO might clear it up but still wondering if anyone recently went this route and fined out what was approved.

No need for A&P at all if you simply get a Repaiman Certificate for the RV-12.

[mallen]

No need for A&P at all if you simply get a Repaiman Certificate for the RV-12.

Looking at the retirement side of my life. Getting it sitting at a small airport and working for the enjoyment of the work not the money of the work.

[Bill Berson]

I found my A&P certificate to be useless until I got my I.A.
Can't do annuals without the I.A. so not much need for A&P since you have to work with another I.A. anyway.

All this nonsense for small two seat planes is illogical and killing private aviation slowly.

[btaz]

Earlier this year, I finished my scratch build of a Bearhawk LSA. During the build process, I had an longtime IA friend of mine answer questions and perform a few QA checks over the three years of building.

When finished, I took the build logs to the FSDO to get my repairman's certificate. I also brought a letter from the aforementioned IA attesting to my experiences working under his supervision as well as a typed up log of my experiences(starting with two years as a line boy in college, through twenty years of "owner assisted" maintenance of my various experimental and certified aircraft, and ending with my experimental build. I reviewed the subject area requirements and was easily able to come up with the required subject knowledge as required and the thirty months was covered outside of my build.

The inspector complimented me on my records and issued my permission to take the tests. I plan on preparing for the written using an online guide and then use one of the "one week to pass" courses for the oral and practical. That is the method used by several other friends.

Note the permission to pursue the testing doesn't have an expiration date until you take the first test. IIRC, you then have two years to finish.

I don't believe I want the liability associated with working on other peoples planes but would like the A&P to be able to perform conditional inspections on any future Experimentals I might own.

[cub builder]

I found my A&P certificate to be useless until I got my I.A.
Can't do annuals without the I.A. so not much need for A&P since you have to work with another I.A. anyway.

All this nonsense for small two seat planes is illogical and killing private aviation slowly.

I have found my A&P to be quite useful and have purposely put off getting my IA for the last 10 years or so. I work primarily on Experimentals, and since I have full time employment that pays much better than A&P work, I won't take on work that someone that's trying to make a living bending wrenches wants to do. So I end up with things that are low profit, but take up a lot of shop time like field overhauls, composite fabrication and repair, and fabric work. The IAs I know have always been happy to sign the inspections for my work, so not having the ticket has not been a problem. Having an IA implies a certain level of commitment with a minimum number of inspections and /or 337s fled per year and a refresher every couple of year . I just haven't had the time for that while still working full time elsewhere. As I enter retirement, depending on the demand in the area I retire to, I may decide to add the IA onto my tickets.

Agreed. Too much cost and paperwork for some pretty simple airplanes is making it unnecessarily expensive.

[Bill Berson]

Times change. I retired 20 years ago. Back then few experimentals came in for anything. I only had one Avid homebuilt in all those years.
The primary opportunity at a small airport then was doing annuals on certificated airplanes. A full time non-aviation paying job is almost needed today, I think.

[Mallory]

I was in a A& P class in Tucson but am dropping it. It was a foolish choice especially at my age.

[enginesrus]

One other thing was an issue for me- turbine engine experience for the "P" rating. I got plenty of reciprocating engine experience but turbine engines are so valuable and scarce, that only accredited schools have engines to work on/study.
Joel Marketello

It still amazes me that the FAA hasn't split up the Turbine and the Reciprocating Power plant rating, it makes zero sense to have them combined, they share nothing in common except a propeller if it is a turbo prop. I just don't understand the lack of logic. I remember in the past hearing about ex military jet guys trying to get P ratings that had zero recip experience so it so makes sense to make them separate ratings. Jet mechanics never deal with magneto timing nor cylinder pressure differential tests etc.
One other question all I see is A&P rating here, cann't you still get one or the other alone? And what about an AI or IA what ever it is called now, can that be also had for one or the other? And then where does power plant stop and airframe begins, at the mount to fire wall? Or engine to mount?

[iterk]

It still amazes me that the FAA hasn't split up the Turbine and the Reciprocating Power plant rating, it makes zero sense to have them combined, they share nothing in common except a propeller if it is a turbo prop. I just don't understand the lack of logic. I remember in the past hearing about ex military jet guys trying to get P ratings that had zero recip experience so it so makes sense to make them separate ratings. Jet mechanics never deal with magneto timing nor cylinder pressure differential tests etc.
One other question all I see is A&P rating here, cann't you still get one or the other alone? And what about an AI or IA what ever it is called now, can that be also had for one or the other? And then where does power plant stop and airframe begins, at the mount to fire wall? Or engine to mount?

This post has been running a long time. I can answer these for you. You can get either Airframe or Powerplant. Whichever you do first will include the written and O&P for the General. The other becomes an add on. This is where the 18 mos airframe/18 mos Powerplant come in.

Your question about where the airframe separates from the powerplant tells me you have ‘t looked at the FAA text. There is not an easy split. As an example you will find that in some cases the gen/alt is A/F and some it’s powerplant depending on how integral it is to the engine, ie gear drive. Or belt driven.

Your question about separating the turbines fm the recips is a long standing argument but the bottom line is that the ratings, A, P or combined are a broad brush certificate that means you know where and how to support the work with manuals and you have the practical experience to tackle the task in the first place. With a long military AND civilian background I have helped many cross those lines. Military need to add rag and tube, carb and mag exposure to their experience. They do NOT need to become expert but with my comment above, they need to UNDERSTAND HOW EACH WORKS and their experience in other areas helps them know where and what to use for manuals and correct ‘tools’.

I don’t want to be crass or negative here but your questions are those of someone that doesn’t yet understand what that A&P certificate and the training and level of competence is really all about.

As for your I A question you must hold both A and P ratings to be an IA. You must have held them for three years and have exercised them for at least 24 of those 36 mos. You must maintain the IA by performing at least one of the following: 4 annuals, 8 337s, a Progressive insp or 8 hrs of approved classroom training for each year and these can not be mixed and matched ie 2 annuals and 4 hrs trng.

Until you get invested in the real A&P/IA training process either through OJT or classroom/147 school you can not appreciate what the little certificate means. (you buy a license for your pet.. you earn a certificate.. and not by just showing up...). The process is very worthwhile but don’t expect the requirements to be made easy or simple just because you don’t have enough interest to make your investment. For homebuilders the Repairman’s certificate is an excellent solution. If you built it you may maintain it, inspect it and return it to service.

[enginesrus]

So I started in and around 1972 working at an FBO to at least get my P rating, and of course never thought to log the hours and get it signed off, kids you know. And then of course the nuts I worked for didn't bother suggesting it either, I don't think any of them are alive now. So I essentially wasted some time there. I just wish I would have pursued it better at the time. Yeah I've seen the books etc. but its been some time so???

[iterk]

There is no absolute mandate that says your log of time has to be “signed off” by anyone but your own self cert. if you can run a list of what you did and the timeline that you did it it may give the FAA inspector enough to allow those hours but he’ll want to see recent hours for some too. I have had this work. Generate with some detail what you did and how many hours you worked. Be as specific as you can. Then get some current time logged doing engine work and general work after you get the texts and go through them so you are learning from the books as well as logging supervised time in the areas and to the depth the text involved.

[wa4eio]

So far no one has mentioned the PTS and it’s replacement the draft ACS. I would print out the new ACS when it is released or even the draft proposal. Then in the space between each task, I would write in what I did to satisfy the task. The tasks can be satisfied by either physically performing them or through book work. If an A&P or IA can sign/initial each task as you do it, you will be showing the FAA that you made a professional and structured effort. If it is by book work, the A&P or IA can indicate the they discussed what you read.

Discuss this his with your local FSDO. Building a kit plane doesn’t prove anything. Individual tasks, as they line up with the PTS or ACS, are what is needed. Just my opinion.

[Kurt Flunkn]

So far no one has mentioned the PTS and it’s replacement the draft ACS. I would print out the new ACS when it is released or even the draft proposal. Then in the space between each task, I would write in what I did to satisfy the task. The tasks can be satisfied by either physically performing them or through book work. If an A&P or IA can sign/initial each task as you do it, you will be showing the FAA that you made a professional and structured effort. If it is by book work, the A&P or IA can indicate the they discussed what you read.

Discuss this his with your local FSDO. Building a kit plane doesn’t prove anything. Individual tasks, as they line up with the PTS or ACS, are what is needed. Just my opinion.

The PTS is not mentioned because that is not the requirement (using the civil experience route). To get the sign off to take the exams, the applicant must provide documented experience with at least 50% of the subject areas in FAR 147 appendix B, C, and D. These are for the general, airframe, and powerplant. Check the fsims...

[wa4eio]

Everything you say is correct.

the question was..... how does a person with no prior experience or approved schools demonstrate to the FAA that they meet the qualifications to take the A&P tests.

My answer is that even if it is overkill, you show that you have the PTS/ACS covered.

[iterk]

‘Mornin’. This is where the extensive logging of your time and efforts in specific areas of the material come in. The referance to the PTS and new ACS are accurate and a good guidline. They ARE what the DME used to use to determine what tasks were to be performed during the oral and practical... the faa computer now choses the tasks but they follow the PTS. To be very specific you must show the FAA inspector that you can account for 18/18 mos AF/PP or 30 mos combined experience. A ‘month’ is 4 40 hr weeks, ie 160 hrs x 30 mos. working on FAA regulated (or military QUALITY plus FAA regs and methods). YOU may sign it off as certifying that these are your efforts. I would highly recommend that you work with at least one A&P to get supervision as to the level of work in the various areas. Trouble with being your own supervisor here is that, like these questions/answers you don’t know what you don’t know LOL IF you really are ready go back to my origonal post. Find and buy the FAA sponsored TEXTBOOKS and begin the STUDY. You really do need a working, hands on knowlege of each and every chapter and verse in these texts. That’s not to say you have to memorize the whole of the texts but you are, as an A&P applicant responsible for that level and greadth of knowledge.

[enginesrus]

So can all this work out just like the building of your own plane? So I want my PP rating, can I just do a self overhaul and log the time? That is essentially what would happen at a school. And besides they won't get into nor do they likely know how to do an over haul on an R-2800 or R-4360, and just like with the kit plane deal there are many tools that may need to be fabricated etc. When building a kit plane you don't have some teacher looking over your shoulder.
And the way I see it if you are specific to either turbine or recip then they can not discriminate your hours, only the knowledge and ability like someone mentioned in one of the posts that he had no turbine time at all.

[iterk]

Good morning. You are missing an undertsnding of the breadth and depth of the TEACHING that goes on in a 14cfr147 school. While it is true you would, in one (of about 15) modules disassemble, dimensionally and ndi inspect a recip engine. You would learn the correct way to clean, measure (and what tools and how to read them and their variants). You would re assemble the engine and while it might not be a runable engine the instructor has been lecturing on how it works, both in theory and in practice, with words of his/her years working in the field. Details worthy of that kind of lecture might include why some make and model engines have the oil control rings turned bevel up in some model/dash number of that engine and turned down in other varients. It is this level of comprehension and understanding of the service bulletins that allow a 147 school to do this teaching in a typical 15-20 mos vs 30 mos OJT. Another issue with building an amature built aircraft for FAA credit is that you must be working to FAA standards. The ‘POP’ rivets used in a Zenair and AirCams are great for an SAE standards design but you will never find ‘POP’ rivets in AC43-13 except as a non structural fastener. In school or in practice in OJT you will need to learn to properly identify the many common rivet materials, head shapes and styles and how to determine the number and size REQUIRED to make a correct rivet joint. Materials, the topic, as an example, are spread through the entire progra. If you add up the hours spent learning, being quizzed on and actually choosing and installing... and correctly UN installing... various fasteners you would find something like 40 hrs JUST on that subject. ALL of which is testable in both the written exam and the practical. IF... at the end of your self taught, TEXTBOOK oriented training you could take a collection of 20-30 various nuts, bolts rivets, cotter pins, clevis pins etc and CORRECTLY IDENTIFY each as to it’s AN/MS number to include it’s size and material AND demonstrate the correct installation of those you would get credit for that weeks work. Now you still have 14-19 more weeks if you are in a 147 program. If you are in an OJT program you woukd still have the same requirements only you woukd have had to learn the material by working with, reading about and ideally having a competent A&P judge your progress.

Yes, you could do this on your own but since you don’t know what you do ‘t know it’s hard to evaluate your own work. I got my A&P about 30+ years ago the OJT method but by the time I was ready to ask the FAA for their blessing to take the 3 written and two/three O&Ps I had logged major work (read ground up rebuild in a couple, wood spar splices and complete or partial recovering on other and some extensive engine work) on eleven aircraft. Included were numerous D C 3 controls, restoring the prototype Stits Playboy (N38K) helping on 1820’s and 1830’s, spicing my J5 Cub spar etc., overhauling the carb, mags and a couple of cylinders on that C85-12 all under the direct supervision of a number of gracious A&Ps . I had had military training AS A PILOT on the turbines in the Hueys I was flying and later the HH52s I was flying. In the end, while I had logged enough experience and time to qualify, to pass the writtens I used a test prep course Jennifer Baker.. the nice lady that now IS Baker’s School was doing courses on the road and came to us (in Kodiak,AK) and spent five very long days in prepping and seeing to our writtens. My practicals a few months later were with a DME that had been one of my many mentors and had signed for my work on a couple of the rebuilds... We still spent a fair bit of time examining my learning before he signed my temporary certificates. An A&P rating is the end result of a patient accumulation of a great deal of knowledge and skill learned one lesson at a time. Just building a kit built with todays quality of pre measured, pre drilled kits is excellent but not ALL of what you need. Now, scratch build a Falco or a Skybolt and then overhaul the engine you got ‘cheap’ from a friend... and make it fly.. and we’ll talk.

[martymayes]

It still amazes me that the FAA hasn't split up the Turbine and the Reciprocating Power plant rating, it makes zero sense to have them combined, they share nothing in common except a propeller if it is a turbo prop. I just don't understand the lack of logic. I remember in the past hearing about ex military jet guys trying to get P ratings that had zero recip experience so it so makes sense to make them separate ratings. Jet mechanics never deal with magneto timing nor cylinder pressure differential tests etc.

The FAA kinda-sorta proposed something like that during the 1990's re-write of Part 65, which would have been recodified as Part 66. It received so many negative comments the FAA withdrew the proposal.


One other question all I see is A&P rating here, cann't you still get one or the other alone? And what about an AI or IA what ever it is called now, can that be also had for one or the other? And then where does power plant stop and airframe begins, at the mount to fire wall? Or engine to mount?

Inspection Authorization or IA is only available to mechanics that
1) Hold a currently effective mechanic certificate with both an airframe rating and a powerplant rating,

[martymayes]

So I started in and around 1972 working at an FBO to at least get my P rating, and of course never thought to log the hours and get it signed off, kids you know. And then of course the nuts I worked for didn't bother suggesting it either, I don't think any of them are alive now. So I essentially wasted some time there. I just wish I would have pursued it better at the time. Yeah I've seen the books etc. but its been some time so???

Do you have the pay stubs from the time you were employed there? The FAA will accept that. The experience does not have an expiration date.

[martymayes]

Discuss this his with your local FSDO. Building a kit plane doesn’t prove anything. Individual tasks, as they line up with the PTS or ACS, are what is needed. Just my opinion.

What's needed is evidence that you have worked the equivalent of 18 or 30 months, which the FAA defines as 160 hrs per month. Specific skills at that point don't matter. The FAA definition for "practical experience" is quite broad, it says:

A. Practical Experience. The practical experience must provide the applicant with basic knowledge of and skills in the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment used in aircraft construction, alteration, maintenance, and inspection.

Nothing about kit planes or being proficient in overhauling a radial engine. You can work as a gopher in a maintenance shop for 30 months, removing and installing inspection panels, changing oil and tires and show evidence of meeting the required practical experience.

I completely agree with going to the FSDO and talking to an ASI to get examples of acceptable methods of documenting practical experience before starting. Could save a lot of problems down the road.

[enginesrus]

Okay first off, about the teaching deal at a school. I am over 60 and had worked on industrial engines for many years as a job though not aircraft. I also have over 20 some plus years of machinist experience, that is machine tools, I have done tool making and aircraft machinist, and aircraft wind tunnel model machinist work.
So learning to check parts and handle aircraft related parts is nothing new. All engine related info would be nothing new. Electrical ? 2 year equivalent electronics school many years ago, so, yeah could use some refresher stuff. Plus I did do my FBO job as a kid helping on R-1830's and R-2800's but for limited time, (I would have no problem timing the 4 magneto's on an R-4360 low tension ignition engine or valve adjustments on the same been there done that not at the FBO), job was a normal kid grunt work job though at the time I had many various automotive engine overhauls under my belt, as well as automatic transmissions and rear axles from back before and into high school days. The mention of various fasteners like riveting I do not know. Can certain aspects of the classes be challenged to cut down on some of the time?

[martymayes]

Can certain aspects of the classes be challenged to cut down on some of the time?

Unfortunately, there is no credit for life experiences and no credit by exam like the college CLEP test that would allow one to bypass training by passing a test.

When I went to A&P school there were students age 60+ that had retired and simply wanted to earn an A&P certificate. Attending a school is the best deal for saving time because you can do the whole thing in ~19 months, if that is an option. There were some 1 yr schools around but they are usually pricey.

[enginesrus]

I was doing some searches and found that its very funny how the FAA would be so stringent on say me, and so crazy lax else where, it really proves some nonsense to it all.
So you think I could send away to another country for my FAA PP certificate?
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance-disturbing-truth

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39383369/ns/travel/t/outsourcing-safety-airplane-repairs-move-unregulated-foreign-shops/#.W2lfAcJlDcs

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/02/obama-era-faa-hiring-rules-place-diversity-ahead-airline-safety-attorney-tells-tucker-carlson.html

[Kurt Flunkn]

Sorry to disagree with you Marty, but being the shop gopher for 30 months alone won't qualify. Check the fsims and you will find that experience must show at least 50% of the subjects in FAR 147 appendix B, C, and D. This is for applicants by civil experience (i.e. not graduates from an approved technical school or militarily equivalent)....

[martymayes]

No apology required Kurt. If you work in a full service shop or CRS, having enough experience won't be a problem because experience in the context of the regs means "basic knowledge and skills"

[martymayes]

I was doing some searches and found that its very funny how the FAA would be so stringent on say me, and so crazy lax else where,

I assure you they are not being stringent on just you. Rules are rules. I looked at different methods for getting an A&P and in the end, going to a Pt 147 school was the least expensive and fastest way to get it done. Because of my background I found it very easy even while working a 10 hr a day job.