Houston conditions

[Bill Greenwood]

I lived in Houston from age 5 till a few years after college. Ive seen rain, but nothing like this storm. Normal year rain is about 50 inches TOTAL and that is enough to keep things fairly green, with extra watering in the summer. Its not normally a drought area like parts of west Texas, and there are rivers in central and east Texas. They have gotten 50 inches of rain in 4 days. Lots of street flooded, people out of their homes and in shelters or in some cases stranded.
The 2 major airline airports, Hou Hobby on the south, served by Southwest and a great small airline and gen av airport, is open just to emergency flights, at IAH on the north , open for helicopters only with a TFR, at West Houston about 2000 ft of runway open for helicopters but taxiways flooded and 4 in of water inside terminal. Sugarland on the sw reported as flooded too, didnt talk to them. Galveston has one runway open and partial taxiway. Some let up in the rain this afternoon. Winds have been steady at 30 to 40 mph.
This storm didnt have extreme winds to devastate everything or drive water like that, but there has been loss of life from driving into flooded areas, a family of 5 , a policeman trying to get to work. One bright spot, is people helping each other often strangers. In a part of the south were police and minorities can conflict, it was good to see a young white cop carrying an African American lady with an infant in her lap through waist deep water. Another photos was of folks from La. with a boat rescuing a grandmother. One photo was of a man in a wet suit stand up paddling a surf board with a small boy perhaps 4 years old on the front, high and dry.A furniture store open their doors to hundreds, said they had lots of spare mattresses and could give everyone a blanket and a meal.

[Bill Greenwood]

News reports are that 80% of homeowners dont have flood insurance. Lots of cars that are submerged are going to be ruined also. Years ago I had a plane at Galveston briefly in someone else's hangar. They advised me to move it before hurricane season. I was a bit offended, thought they just wanted their hangar back, but I did as asked and weeks later a major hurricane hit with a lot of flooding damage to hangars and airplanes., so I was lucky in that respect.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I found an easy way to donate a quick $10 to the Red Cross by texting HARVEY to 90999.

People are seriously hurting and I hope everyone who 'can' make a small donation, does make one to a safe organization like the Red Cross or Salvation Army etc.

here is just one of the many news articles:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/us/donate-harvey-charities-scams.html?mcubz=0

[gbrasch]

Today Fox news aired a live rescue from inside a Blackhawk helicopter. Pretty amazing as they first hoisted a mom and daughter up, then a boy and his dog, and finally the dad...

[martymayes]

I lived on the Gulf Coast for 30 yrs and flooding shouldn't surprise anyone. It's a regular event. Despite years and years of warnings, low lying, flood prone areas continue to be developed and there is no shortage of people are willing to live there. Very few will leave Houston which means another heavy rain event combined with a storm surge that hinders drainage will produce similar results.

If a mortgage company doesn't required flood insurance, not many people bother with it. They are just playing the odds. Even when flood insurance is required, only the absolute minimum to meet the requirement will be purchased, which is mostly useless.

[rwanttaja]

I lived on the Gulf Coast for 30 yrs and flooding shouldn't surprise anyone. It's a regular event. Despite years and years of warnings, low lying, flood prone areas continue to be developed and there is no shortage of people are willing to live there. Very few will leave Houston which means another heavy rain event combined with a storm surge that hinders drainage will produce similar results.
Article I read (http://www.slate.com/articles/business/metropolis/2017/08/houston_wasn_t_built_to_withstand_a_storm_like_har vey.html) said, "This is the third straight year that Houston has endured a devastating, once-in-a-lifetime flood...."


If a mortgage company doesn't required flood insurance, not many people bother with it. They are just playing the odds. Even when flood insurance is required, only the absolute minimum to meet the requirement will be purchased, which is mostly useless.
After the Seattle area's last major earthquake, my wife decided we needed earthquake insurance. We had no damage, but with a volcano visible from our rear windows, it does kind of seem like a good idea.

The premium isn't that bad, but the deductible is tremendous...about $100,000-$200,000, IIRC. Really comes into play only with major damage. I wonder if the flood insurance in those prone areas is the same way....

Ron Wanttaja

[wyoranch]

Ron,
My wife did the same exact thing.. Living in the Yellowstone caldera and the increase in frequency and intensity of quakes we purchased some as well. I keep trying to explain that if the caldera lets go enough to collect on the insurance that there will be nothing left and no place to rebuild it.
Rick

[martymayes]

Flood insurance isn't very expensive and doesn't have high deductible. I do seem to recall you can't make a claim every yr, if you want a house where it floods regularly have to build accordingly, e.g., put the house on stilts or build a levee around it.

What really makes me sad is how unprepared people are. I mean I got flooded in one time for about 5 days and nobody came to rescue us. Just did what ya had to do until the water receded.

[wyoranch]

Flood insurance is incredibly expensive. My premium is $2700 a year and that comes with a rediculous deductible.

[Floatsflyer]

Flood insurance isn't very expensive and doesn't have high deductible

Since everyone else knows that seperate flood insurance and the accompanying deductible is stupid expensive and stupid high, I would like to suggest that Marty tell us via PM or here as a post who his insurance company is so we can all save a lot of money. Thanks.

[Bob Dingley]

Flood insurance is incredibly expensive. My premium is $2700 a year and that comes with a rediculous deductible.

just renewed with USAA for $425/yr. Had this house for 3 decades. Direct hits about 6 times. Only one claim (Andrew) for half the cost of a generator ($268). I logged on to find out how the Lone Star Aviation Museum is doing. It was at Galveston when I flew out Of Scholes. They were planning a move to Ellington.

[Bob Dingley]

Further info. I am about 5 miles from Pensacola Bay at 142' MSL.

[rwanttaja]

Since everyone else knows that seperate flood insurance and the accompanying deductible is stupid expensive and stupid high, I would like to suggest that Marty tell us via PM or here as a post who his insurance company is so we can all save a lot of money. Thanks.
I suspect the premium and deductible depend on whether you're in a formal flood plain area. Flood insurance for my house is pretty cheap, but I do live at the top of 400-foot hill. Mind you, considering the volcano, the "flood" might be lava.....

Got one of these signs on the road at the bottom of the hill....
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/pictures/ger/ger_hazards_volc_evac_sign.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

just renewed with USAA for $425/yr.

Does one still have to be current or former military only to qualify with them?

[Floatsflyer]

...but I do live at the top of 400-foot hill. Mind you, considering the volcano, the "flood" might be lava.....

Got one of these signs on the road at the bottom of the hill....
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/pictures/ger/ger_hazards_volc_evac_sign.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

Now that's a sign I've never seen before anywhere. My niece and her family live in Seattle, don't believe she's ever told me about an active volcano.

[Mike M]

Does one still have to be current or former military only to qualify with them?

I've been a USAA member since 1968 and can't get USAA home insurance. Because they don't write policies for retirees, only active duty, in my county - that's what I've been told every year for the last 10 years when my Citizens policy is up for renewal.

YMMV

[martymayes]

The last place I lived in Louisiana was inside the 100 yr floodplain and annual flood insurance was ~$400


I bet they have a hard time keeping those volcano signs up. The sign collectors would be all over that.

[rwanttaja]

Now that's a sign I've never seen before anywhere. My niece and her family live in Seattle, don't believe she's ever told me about an active volcano.
All of the major mountains in the Cascades are active volcanoes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascade_Volcanoes). This includes Mount Saint Helens, Mount Adams, Mount Rainier, Glacier Peak, and Mount Baker. Mount Rainier last erupted a bit over 100 years ago, and has hot spots and sub-surface quakes.

Kind of a b***h to fly somewhere where the ground may fly up at YOU.... :-)

Here's a shot of Mount Rainier taken from my home office window. It's about 45 miles away. Fortunately, there's a valley in the foreground that would probably intercept any mud/lava flow.
http://www.wanttaja.com/lennie3.jpg
The lenticular clouds on the right formed behind Mt. St. Helens, ~80 miles to the south. Can't see it from my house, but can if I climb to ~1500 feet or so in the airplane.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

Ron, that's a beautiful sight to look at every day from your house, you are blessed with a million dollar view as r/e agents say. And thanks for the geography lesson, did not know.

[tspear]

Flood insurance isn't very expensive and doesn't have high deductible. I do seem to recall you can't make a claim every yr, if you want a house where it floods regularly have to build accordingly, e.g., put the house on stilts or build a levee around it.

What really makes me sad is how unprepared people are. I mean I got flooded in one time for about 5 days and nobody came to rescue us. Just did what ya had to do until the water receded.

There really is only one viable option for flood insurance. And that is the National Flood Insurance Program, which tax payers subsidize in a major way. Even then, many people find the coverage very expensive.
You alluded to the real answer, do not build there.

Tim

[tspear]

Ron,

I agree with floatsFlyer. That view is incredible.

Tim

[Hal Bryan]

Ron - there's a handful of things I miss about living in that area. First is family and friends, and next is scenery. I miss this view, definitely.

[Mike M]

...You alluded to the real answer, do not build there.

Tim

It's not rocket surgery. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=5214038&page=1

[tspear]

It's not rocket surgery. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=5214038&page=1

I recall that whole debate when I was in college. Later on, it has proven to be the right choice.
A few times, people have pushed FEMA to only offer funds if they move to higher ground or out of the flood area. Has not made it very far in Congress.

Tim

[martymayes]

It's not rocket surgery. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=5214038&page=1

That's awesome!! Hopefully they didn't relocate on a fault line.

[Bill Greenwood]

I checked this morning and while it is drying out, rain stopped in Houston , Ellington airport runway is still closed and Hobby not open for non rescue gen aviation. I think Bush, Hou Int is open for airline flights.
There are gasoline shortages in the area, some places are without electricity and in Beaumont they dont have running water.
The Flight Museum in Galveston had a lot of flooding , airplanes and hangars and exhibits so was tryong to move to Ellington about 25 miles inland, not as scenic but may be dryer. This time Ellington got more water and flooding than Galveston.

Lots of loss of lives, more than 3 dozen that are known at this time, and millions of property damage. Trying to find a bright side, and a big one is people helping others and without any line as far as race goes. And also it you like seafood as much as I do,now you just dont have to go so far to catch it, maybe right outside your door. One man even caught a fish inside his kitchen!

[CHICAGORANDY]

Just wondering out loud..... IS there any 'high ground' in the Houston area on which one could have chosen to live? I once attended a seminar at Texas A&M in College Station which is about 100 miles N/W and don't recall any hills.

[Floatsflyer]

Just wondering out loud..... IS there any 'high ground' in the Houston area on which one could have chosen to live?

There must be. My cousin has lived in Houston for the past 35 years. Many of my family members and myself have been in contact with her since last Saturday. While scared and without power she has not been affected by any flooding and her house is dry and safe. I don't know what area she resides. Because she has no power she's relocated to her son's house in Austin.

[Bill Greenwood]

Austin is the eastern edge of what is known as The Hill Country. Austin is about 542 feet above seal level with a small hill , Mt. Bonnell in the middle top at 775 feet, and higher terrain to the west. If you want to get higher than that just follow closely behind Willie"s bus and breathe deeply. And dont think Willie has too many legal problems as the cops are mostly country music fans as are any potential jurors.

[martymayes]

Just wondering out loud..... IS there any 'high ground' in the Houston area on which one could have chosen to live? I once attended a seminar at Texas A&M in College Station which is about 100 miles N/W and don't recall any hills.

4th floor or higher in any downtown skyscraper

[tspear]

Here is an interesting read:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/01/harvey-texas-louisiana-floods-relocation-215565

Tim

[Floatsflyer]

Here is an interesting read:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/01/harvey-texas-louisiana-floods-relocation-215565

Tim

Yup. How many times do you have to be hit over the head before you say, "Hey, that's enough, that really hurts, stop, stop, stop it."

Or as an op/ed piece I just read stated:

" I've never understood the appetite for disaster journalism. It's so unlike the news. We have pictures, they can't get enough and the supply is endless. The emphasis isn't on the event and it's cause, it's on the aftermath and the interminable rescues, slipping often toward rescue porn. It seems heroic but is essentially passive and reactive. It harkens back to Noah, the original flood rescuer, with no emphasis on making rescues unnecessary in the future. At least God promised Noah, via the rainbow sign, that He wouldn't do it again, by flood anyway. He never mentioned global warming."

[martymayes]

I'd move to Houston if the price was right. Build one of those shipping container houses,
big generator and I'd be good to go.

[wyoranch]

Say what you want about it being stupid to live there in a flood plain, but I am fairly sure that not too many of us are flying electric aircraft. We all love the by product of these people living there.. Oil. I work down there at two of the largest steel facilities in the country. We exist to service the OIL industry. Short of someone finally inventing a Star Trek type transporter, people have to live THERE. Don't be so quick to judge those that do, everywhere in the nation has its faults. Midwest and their daily supercell T-storms, the south and hurricanes, Ron's volcano(s).... Instead, let's just do what we can to help, even if it is only to take a few seconds out of our day and say a prayer or send a good thought.
Rick
p.s. Even here in paradise it is only a matter of time before the caldera lets go and ends life as we know it anyway. +/- 10000 years

[Blue750]

Mike, that sounds suspect. Talk to another agent. I'm a retiree and have home insurance with USAA - maybe it is geographical...I live in Maine. We have the occasional ice storm...

[tspear]

Say what you want about it being stupid to live there in a flood plain, but I am fairly sure that not too many of us are flying electric aircraft. We all love the by product of these people living there.. Oil. I work down there at two of the largest steel facilities in the country. We exist to service the OIL industry. Short of someone finally inventing a Star Trek type transporter, people have to live THERE. Don't be so quick to judge those that do, everywhere in the nation has its faults. Midwest and their daily supercell T-storms, the south and hurricanes, Ron's volcano(s).... Instead, let's just do what we can to help, even if it is only to take a few seconds out of our day and say a prayer or send a good thought.
Rick
p.s. Even here in paradise it is only a matter of time before the caldera lets go and ends life as we know it anyway. +/- 10000 years

In 1890 Houston was destroyed due to flooding. They rebuilt in the same location. This has been going on over hundred years.
As for the oil industry, how many people are working on a rig in Houston? That is about the only thing that needs to be physically where it is.

All over the country, people pay directly or indirectly to deal with local inclement conditions. e.g. Snow removal, earthquakes.... Instead, Texas, Louisiana, and Florida all have instead depended on the federal bail out when nature arrives versus having zoning rules, taxes, building codes to prevent significantly mitigate the costs when nature arrives.

Tim

[wyoranch]

It would s not just the rigs. It is infrastructure, transportation, maintenance, healthcare etc.. All of that plus more extraneous services that add up to a population that I am sure comes close to a million people of the 5 or so million that live there. The company I work for employs 45,000 people in the Houston are alone, and we only supply steel.
Rick

[tspear]

It would s not just the rigs. It is infrastructure, transportation, maintenance, healthcare etc.. All of that plus more extraneous services that add up to a population that I am sure comes close to a million people of the 5 or so million that live there. The company I work for employs 45,000 people in the Houston are alone, and we only supply steel.
Rick

Rick,

You stated you are there to service the oil industry. That is fine. What about the oil industry is geographically required to be in the Houston flood plain? Outside of oil rigs, I can think of nothing.
If Houston and Texas stopped getting bailed out by the feds, and actually followed free market concepts the politicians espouse, then guess what. The cost of flood insurance, bankruptcy and other market forces would convince people and businesses to move someplace else. The reason is because the cost of living would skyrocket, or they would face significant building code costs (such as building on stilts). The result of such costs is that Detroit might become more cost competitive for the oil industry and your steel company....

Tim

[CarlOrton]

Tim, on the surface, I somewhat agree with your assertion. However, there's more to play here. I don't work in oil, gas, or related infrastructure (I'm a SW guy...). So anything I'm about to say can most likely be shot down easily.

Houston may have been there first, but not to the extent and scope of the way it is now. Oil made it that way. Houston accepts all those large supertankers bringing (well, used to bring; dunno how much now) all that foreign oil to be refined. Yes, Detroit has access to the great lakes, but I'm not sure if a supertanker can navigate the lakes. So, even if the load were transferred to smaller boats, that's still a time (and $$$) impact as opposed to just pulling up to the Port of Houston.

But, perhaps the biggest reason is that: it's already there. How many cities would ALLOW, much less embrace, oil refineries? Aside from the environmental impacts, folks just don't want any type of infrastructure projects impacting their view/lifes/health. See any new nuke plants lately? Much cleaner than refineries, yet the specter of OMG!!! we have a meltdown!!!! remains regardless of technology improvements.

Why don't we just build super pipelines from a major port (pick a port, any port) to ship the oil to Detroit or someplace else in need of jobs? Same reason. There's someone, somewhere, with a truly credible reason why a new pipeline shouldn't cross their land.

Of course, if Elon Musk has his way, we'll only have to worry about lithium in the future, and oil refineries will be a quaint novelty.

Oh, and BTW, EVERYONE gets bailed out by the feds. Think mudslide homes in California. Toxic cleanup sites in NJ. Tornado horrors just about anyplace in the country. Why don't folks leave Moore OK? (not picking on them; I just drive thru there and it was the first place that came to mind. It's hard to create a utopian paradise where all is fair and perfect without *someone* *somewhere* having to deal with the unpleasant necessities of life. Think sewage treatment plans.

[tspear]

Tim, on the surface, I somewhat agree with your assertion. However, there's more to play here. I don't work in oil, gas, or related infrastructure (I'm a SW guy...). So anything I'm about to say can most likely be shot down easily.

Houston may have been there first, but not to the extent and scope of the way it is now. Oil made it that way. Houston accepts all those large supertankers bringing (well, used to bring; dunno how much now) all that foreign oil to be refined. Yes, Detroit has access to the great lakes, but I'm not sure if a supertanker can navigate the lakes. So, even if the load were transferred to smaller boats, that's still a time (and $$$) impact as opposed to just pulling up to the Port of Houston.

But, perhaps the biggest reason is that: it's already there. How many cities would ALLOW, much less embrace, oil refineries? Aside from the environmental impacts, folks just don't want any type of infrastructure projects impacting their view/lifes/health. See any new nuke plants lately? Much cleaner than refineries, yet the specter of OMG!!! we have a meltdown!!!! remains regardless of technology improvements.

Why don't we just build super pipelines from a major port (pick a port, any port) to ship the oil to Detroit or someplace else in need of jobs? Same reason. There's someone, somewhere, with a truly credible reason why a new pipeline shouldn't cross their land.

Of course, if Elon Musk has his way, we'll only have to worry about lithium in the future, and oil refineries will be a quaint novelty.

Oh, and BTW, EVERYONE gets bailed out by the feds. Think mudslide homes in California. Toxic cleanup sites in NJ. Tornado horrors just about anyplace in the country. Why don't folks leave Moore OK? (not picking on them; I just drive thru there and it was the first place that came to mind. It's hard to create a utopian paradise where all is fair and perfect without *someone* *somewhere* having to deal with the unpleasant necessities of life. Think sewage treatment plans.

Like you I just picked a city. In this Detroit because the previous poster worked in the steel industry.
You can keep the refinery in TX, just move it two hundred miles inland. Not exactly a huge pipeline at that point to get to the coast.
There is a principle called a moral hazard. Looking at the history of FEMA, and the rebuilding along the gulf coast and Florida; we have come to the point where these societies now depend on a bail out.
I can give multiple examples of how Houston, New Orleans and others have failed to prepare. Further, the state of Texas has a rainy day fund of 10B. Yes, that is correct of 10 Billion dollars sitting there, and they are looking to the Feds to solve the problem instead of touching the rainy day funds.

At some, it becomes enough. I think we need to wind down all reconstruction aspects and let FEMA go back to what it was initially supposed to do. Handle the initial emergency only.

Tim