27 - 18 arrivals

[Michael McGrew]

I have flown into OSH many times with very few problems (other than the occasional idiot). This year we were sent to a left base 18 and the plane ahead of us was sent to a right base 27. Wind was not much of a factor. In my opinion (for what its worth) I think these this combination puts the planes in to close of a proximity. I was turning left at the same time he was turning right. Very close and made my passenger uneasy. Any one have any thoughts on this?

[Mike M]

... This year we were sent to a left base 18 and the plane ahead of us was sent to a right base 27. ...In my opinion (for what its worth) I think these this combination puts the planes in to close of a proximity.... Any one have any thoughts on this?

Yep, you're right. Pretty close.

Huh? Normal ATC traffic separation below 18000' MSL is 500' vertically? Like IFR traffic is on 1000 ft levels and VFR traffic is on 1000' plus 500' so they're 500' apart?

Well, that's not the same.

We can't even maneuver because we're stuck on those narrow 9' to 12' wide lanes. What? We're not?

Never mind.66376638

(Sorry, I couldn't resist! My wife panics when traffic is 3 miles away, sometimes more, so I empathize with you, Mr McGrew.)

[Kyle Boatright]

If you follow the notam, it has you turning base for 18 even with the tower. That gives you at least a half mile separation from 27 arrivals.

[champ driver]

Mikes diagram is irrelevant in this case as the Notam describes where you turn base, which is no where near as shown on that diagram.
The 500' vertical separation is also irrelevant as we're talking about lateral separation.

Kyle is correct, there is at least 1/2 mile separation, between base and final for the two runways. If you want to fly into Oshkosh, you're going to have to reduce the distance between planes at times.
Be on your toes with your eyes open, that's the way it is.

Be careful turning a low and tight base to final to 18, too many guys have died turning too tight, I've seen it happen myself.

[Mayhemxpc]

P10 of NOTAM: "Turn base abeam the Blue dot. If unable, make immediate right turn to Southeast for resequencing. DO NOT continue past the Blue Dot UNLESS ADVISED BY ATC." (Emphasis in original.)

I am only repeating what previous posters said to stress the importance the NOTAM placed on NOT conflicting with traffic on 27. FDC NOTAMs are regulatory, so I am confident that you read it as part of your pre-flight planning.

[Michael McGrew]

Read it every year for 12 years. Still do not like the 27 - 18 used together. One rookie mistake and its a mid air. If it no winds then 9 - 36. I can not think of a wind situation that would require 18 - 27?

[Kyle Boatright]

Read it every year for 12 years. Still do not like the 27 - 18 used together. One rookie mistake and its a mid air. If it no winds then 9 - 36. I can not think of a wind situation that would require 18 - 27?

A wind from the SW would drive them to use 18 and 27.

As far as the rookie mistake goes, the reduced separation rules apply. They take away some of the margin for rookie mistakes.

[TedK]

Perhaps a better way to use both 27 and 18 would be per page 11 of the NOTAM where all traffic continues up the railroad tracks at Fisk onto the 27 downwind. Then when on the 27 downwind, some traffic would be vectored Right, flying over 27, then descending to 18, while other traffic would continue the standard 27 approach.

This would also work with Rnwy 9 in use with some traffic turning Right from the RR tracks to 9 while other traffic continued to fly the 27 downwind then turning Right to 18.

6639

[Kyle Boatright]

One of the great things about arriving at fisk is that the traffic stream is split 50/50 at that point, greatly reducing separation issues. Anything that undid that would need to have huge benefits elsewhere.

The current procedures are fine. Just understand and follow them.

[TedK]

One of the great things about arriving at fisk is that the traffic stream is split 50/50 at that point, greatly reducing separation issues. Anything that undid that would need to have huge benefits elsewhere.

The current procedures are fine. Just understand and follow them.

I can't see as having the Conga line keep going past Fisk would make any difference.

[Kyle Boatright]

I can't see as having the Conga line keep going past Fisk would make any difference.

One of the most challenging portions (IMO) of the arrival is trying to fly 1/2 mile in trail with dissimilar aircraft, particularly if you're behind something slow like a Cub. The folks at Fisk do an awesome job of creating two streams of better spaced aircraft that have a little more parity in performance.

Regarding slam dunking 18 traffic over 27 traffic, that would create a more dangerous situation, and would require very precise altitude control to make sure someone on the approach to 18 wasn't 200' low concurrent with someone on the 27 approach being 200' too high, and causing a midair. Remember, these are the same pilots who <apparently> can't follow the NOTAM well enough to turn base for 18 at or before the tower or blue dot. Now we're gonna ask them to hold precise altitudes.

[Kyle Boatright]

One fact in the discussion - measured on Google Earth, it is 3,750' from the tower to the centerline of 27. From the blue dot to the C/L of 27 is 3,700'. That's roughly 3/4 mile of separation between the 27 and 18 arrival streams if people follow the NOTAM.

[TedK]

One fact in the discussion - measured on Google Earth, it is 3,750' from the tower to the centerline of 27. From the blue dot to the C/L of 27 is 3,700'. That's roughly 3/4 mile of separation between the 27 and 18 arrival streams if people follow the NOTAM.

That seems like plenty of room to use the page 11 Rnwy 27 flyover to 18. It ain't that hard, you just don't pull your throttle back till you have overflown 27.

i frankly would rather use the page 11 approach to Rwy 18 than the downwind to 18...particularly if the are going to use both 18 R and 18 L. Watch this video of a downwind to 18.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ejXdXKdDhVE