Security at OSH

[Lrrryo]

All,

I'm TOTALLY against the bag search or any search at the entry point of OSH. Serves NO purpose and don't by people that don't even know what they are looking for. We are being searched to death for absolutely NO reason. What the F are they looking for, and whatever it is, they won't stop us from bringing it in regardless.

How do we stop this nonsense and prevent it from getting worse? I'd say write to all the EAA officials and let them know we won't stand for it.

As much as I love OSH, this could be a deal killer for me in the future.

[azmedic85355]

It's probably an insurance requirement honestly.


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[martymayes]

At one checkpoint, I opened the main compartment on my backpack. They asked me specifically if I had any alcohol. I said no and there was no further interest in searching my backpack.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Entry screening in various forms is commonplace these days at so many different public events, I can't say I fret much over it at all.

[Floatsflyer]

I'm wondering if you have the same attitude when attending any professional sporting event where bag checking is commonplace? NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc.

[Kyle Boatright]

At one checkpoint, I opened the main compartment on my backpack. They asked me specifically if I had any alcohol. I said no and there was no further interest in searching my backpack.

The strange thing is they sell alcohol in the camp stores. Go figure.

[Mark17]

I agree it's a pain but as sad as it is, this is the times we live in now. We've created enough enemies around the world that security at major events like Oshkosh is a must now. I'm glad they do it and agree it could be more effective if done properly. The volunteers do the best they can and should be commended for all the hours and hard work they put in. We couldn't have Oshkosh without them. That said professional security might be a sound improvement for bag checks.

[robert l]

Only been to AV a couple of times, never been searched and wouldn't mind if I was. The times I have been searched at airports I gladly comply, I'll strip down if that's what they want. I used to work nuclear outages, back pack goes through the x-ray, pockets emptied then walk through a scanner. If the scanner beeps, you do it again and if it beeps again, prepare to remove belt, shoes and be frisked. But I never did get felt up dang it !!

[gbrasch]

What a great terrorist target OSH would be. I learned from a law enforcement source a few years ago that there had been a credible threat that year. As far as I am concerned they should search more and I am happy to oblige. Just my 2 cents.

[krw920]

The strange thing is they sell alcohol in the camp stores. Go figure.

They sell beer at the camp stores, but what is your point? Anybody can go to any establishment outside the grounds and buy beer as well, and bring it unhindered into Camp Scholler. But you can't bring any onto the convention grounds itself.

[FlyingRon]

They sell beer at the camp stores, but what is your point? Anybody can go to any establishment outside the grounds and buy beer as well, and bring it unhindered into Camp Scholler. But you can't bring any onto the convention grounds itself.
There is now a camp store on the grounds as well. Of course, anybody can fly in with a backseat full of booze as well. How do you think the Metro Warbirds and Vintage get their supplies? You can also drive in and drop it off as long as you do so before Sunday.

[mazdaP5]

I don't think that I saw the customary security cart in the camp grounds this year. Didn't notice until I thought about it later.

[Cary]

The most annoying "searchers" are not EAA volunteers, but are the TSA people who really don't know their own rules and are obnoxiously snotty to boot. That's not painting all with a too broad brush, because I've seen TSAers who were kind, pleasant, nice, etc. But some folks are given a badge, and they suddenly become super cops. But they still don't accomplish much.

Realistically, most bag searches everywhere are part of security theater. They really don't accomplish much toward real security. On the other hand, they're not all that onerous, it's part of today's society, so either plan to stay home or be searched occasionally. C'est la vie.

Cary

[Mayhemxpc]

Two points: And you can buy a Swiss Army Knife at the Geneva and Zurich airports AFTER you pass through security at the gift shops in the duty free zone. Alcohol at AirVenture seems to follow the same logic. there may be some sort of Wisconsin law, but I am just guessing.

When dealing with huge numbers of people and the threat is generally low, you can implement random checks. Even Disneyworld's security is somewhat random on this point, too (and they also seem particularly interested in bringing alcohol into the park. There may be commercial concerns at play in BOTH locations.) Random access control measures are still supposed to be random, not chaotic. Not saying security checks at OSH were chaotic, but from what is described here, it was something less than a well disciplined process.

Personally, I was never checked in the entire 8 days I was there...but I never came or left through the main gates, either. When I did come in through one of the other gates it was well after the closing time.

[Skyguy]

I think you guys should zipp it.....and stop this thread.

[Lrrryo]

NO,
I don't attend those events. I value MY security and privacy too much!

[Lrrryo]

I'm wondering if you have the same attitude when attending any professional sporting event where bag checking is commonplace? NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc.

Nope,
Don't attend those, as I value MY security and privacy too much. We worked TOO hard to get this and we're loosing it.

[Lrrryo]

At one checkpoint, I opened the main compartment on my backpack. They asked me specifically if I had any alcohol. I said no and there was no further interest in searching my backpack.

It has nothing to do with alcohol... only revenue.

[Lrrryo]

What a great terrorist target OSH would be. I learned from a law enforcement source a few years ago that there had been a credible threat that year. As far as I am concerned they should search more and I am happy to oblige. Just my 2 cents.

Do you really think they'll stop terrorists by searching pilots attending OSH????? You need a reality check. Hell, they can't stop terrorist with airport security.

[Lrrryo]

I think you guys should zipp it.....and stop this thread.

Why? Don't you stand up for rights that our fore fathers gave their lives for? What is the price of freedom and how much are you willing to throw by the wayside? The security checks at OSH (and a lot of other venue are a guise for a different agenda, like revenue or just a show of power. They serve absolutely NO purpose for the betterment of OSH.

I suspect that most of the folks here are too young to remember the freedoms we have lost, and need to be reminded of what it's really worth.

The last thing we need it to jeopardize our aviation freedoms. Stand UP for your rights. It's not a privilege, it's a right.

[Floatsflyer]

Why? Don't you stand up for rights that our fore fathers gave their lives for? What is the price of freedom and how much are you willing to throw by the wayside? The security checks at OSH (and a lot of other venue are a guise for a different agenda, like revenue or just a show of power. They serve absolutely NO purpose for the betterment of OSH.

I suspect that most of the folks here are too young to remember the freedoms we have lost, and need to be reminded of what it's really worth.

The last thing we need it to jeopardize our aviation freedoms. Stand UP for your rights. It's not a privilege, it's a right.

So tell us, where exactly off the grid do you reside? Possibly in a log cabin on a little cul de sac next to a vacant cabin in middle Montana. Just asking.

[wyoranch]

So tell us, where exactly off the grid do you reside? Possibly in a log cabin on a little cul de sac next to a vacant cabin in middle Montana. Just asking.
Hey now you just described my house......... Lol
Rick
P.S. Absolutely no issues with the searches...........

[Floatsflyer]

Hey now you just described my house......... Lol
Rick
P.S. Absolutely no issues with the searches...........

Sorry Rick, unintended consequences, thanks for seeing the humour. In future I need to follow my own advice to others and not respond to certain comments. I just couldn't resist this time. More discipline needed. If I could quit smoking after 48 years, I can do this.

[wyoranch]

Sorry Rick, unintended consequences, thanks for seeing the humour. In future I need to follow my own advice to others and not respond to certain comments. I just couldn't resist this time. More discipline needed. If I could quit smoking after 48 years, I can do this.
I took it for what it was.... A deliberate attempt to tear me down in order to make yourself feel better..... Ha ha
no worries
Rick

[krw920]

There is now a camp store on the grounds as well. Of course, anybody can fly in with a backseat full of booze as well. How do you think the Metro Warbirds and Vintage get their supplies? You can also drive in and drop it off as long as you do so before Sunday.

There where 4 Red One stores, none on the actual "convention grounds" the area where a wrist band was required to enter.

[Cary]

Just musing a little here, but whenever I see someone spouting about the erosion of this freedom or that freedom and that "they" (whoever "they" are) are taking away the freedoms that others have fought for, I wonder, to paraphrase John Kennedy's inauguration speech, "what have you done for your country?" Do you vote in every election? Do you thank a police officer for taking on a risky job? Have you honorably served in the armed forces? Have you volunteered to help the less fortunate? Have you attended a City Council meeting and expressed your views? Or to keep it aviation oriented, have you volunteered at your local airport, to be a member of the airport board, or to help out when the employees are overwhelmed by snow or other bad weather?

Or instead, have you just complained that "they" aren't getting their jobs done, that "they" aren't enforcing your "rights", that "they" have passed stupid laws, that "they" are impinging on your freedoms? Is your patriotism evidenced only by your flying the American flag from your pickup truck? A big part of good citizenship is participating to help make your country, your state, your county, your city great, not just complaining on social media that it isn't great.

Cary

[Bill Berson]

The majority of Paul Poberezny's Homebuilder Corner columns was him discussing (spouting?) about this or that erosion of freedom.

[Lrrryo]

Just musing a little here, but whenever I see someone spouting about the erosion of this freedom or that freedom and that "they" (whoever "they" are) are taking away the freedoms that others have fought for, I wonder, to paraphrase John Kennedy's inauguration speech, "what have you done for your country?" Do you vote in every election? Do you thank a police officer for taking on a risky job? Have you honorably served in the armed forces? Have you volunteered to help the less fortunate? Have you attended a City Council meeting and expressed your views? Or to keep it aviation oriented, have you volunteered at your local airport, to be a member of the airport board, or to help out when the employees are overwhelmed by snow or other bad weather?

Or instead, have you just complained that "they" aren't getting their jobs done, that "they" aren't enforcing your "rights", that "they" have passed stupid laws, that "they" are impinging on your freedoms? Is your patriotism evidenced only by your flying the American flag from your pickup truck? A big part of good citizenship is participating to help make your country, your state, your county, your city great, not just complaining on social media that it isn't great.

Cary

Cary,

Absolutely right! We should be proactive and get involved. We are not here for a "free ride" and there is a price to pay. If more people were involved and cared about where this country was going we could make a difference.

Fortunately, a lot of the EAA crowd is on that page.

[Mike M]

What a great terrorist target OSH would be. I learned from a law enforcement source a few years ago that there had been a credible threat that year...

Terrorists and looneys tend to attack soft targets. A huge percentage of EAA are current or former military or police. Yet EAA requires us to voluntarily disarm to attend their magnet event. Yep, makes sense to me.

[CHICAGORANDY]

If I can carry at the Oshkosh Walmart down the street (and I can) I should be able to also do so on the grounds at AirVenture. Same person, same rules?

[azmedic85355]

Can one exercise their 2nd amendment rights in Camp Scholler? Asking for a friend...


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[Floatsflyer]

If I can carry at the Oshkosh Walmart down the street (and I can) I should be able to also do so on the grounds at AirVenture.

In the name of all that is rational and logical, FOR WHAT PURPOSE!?!? In case someone hijacked your tram?

[Lrrryo]

In the name of all that is rational and logical, FOR WHAT PURPOSE!?!? In case someone hijacked your tram?

Floats,

First, it's YOUR RIGHT to do so, so exercise it if you wish.
Second, if there's ANY attack, issue or looney that wants to cause you harm your first line of defense is YOU. If you aren't armed, then you have a huge disadvantage. The cops will NOT help you as they won't be there until after the fact.
Third, you may be in a position to help someone else, less fortunate. Yes, we are our brother's keeper... to a point.

Fortunately rare, but it happens, and is happening more. Terrorists, robbers and villains will unlikely be stopped by LEOs or the TSA.

[rwanttaja]

Floats,

First, it's YOUR RIGHT to do so, so exercise it if you wish.

IIRC, Floats is from Canada. Don't think it's a constitutionally-recognized right, up there. Down here, the local gendarmerie might take it amiss if a foreign national is carrying concealed....

For another view, read Robert Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky." Specifically, the advice the main character's combat-trained sister gives him prior to his survival exercise.....

Ron Wanttaja

[DaleB]

In the name of all that is rational and logical, FOR WHAT PURPOSE!?!? In case someone hijacked your tram?
Rabid hedgehogs. They're a real problem around here. Vicious little critters, those.

[FlyingRon]

Walmart is not the EAA. The EAA is free to set their own rules. If you don't like it, grab a bunch of your friends and make a run for the board. It's been tried in the past (unsuccessfully), or create your own organization.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I am not for a single second disputing EAA's right to make their own rules for their 'house'. Nor would I in a million years ever consider not following them. I am merely expressing my opinion that it is kind of a silly restriction to place on that segment of the general populace that has been background checked, fingerprinted, trained and demonstrated themselves to be law abiding citizens of the first order.

As a side note, I KNOW I am 100 times safer schlepping around that convention site than I am were I ever stupid enough to try and wander around my own neighborhood at home.

[FlyingRon]

Well, I have a carry permit and own several pistols and a slew of various long guns. The guys who jump up and down and cry about constitutional right to carry guns into certain places they are reasonably denied are the people I am scared of. These are almost certainly the same guys who have had at least one negligent discharge in their life.

[Floatsflyer]

I am merely expressing my opinion that it is kind of a silly restriction to place on that segment of the general populace that has been background checked, fingerprinted, trained and demonstrated themselves to be law abiding citizens of the first order.

You are living or thinking in a comfortable bubble of your own making. I wish I was as confident and optimist as you that permit holders are all law abiding citizens. That is not only a gross miscalculation but a horribly misguided generalization. And what do you base that on? Some anecdotal evidence from friends and relatives? Emotional response?

There are tons of US statistics about permit holders involved in violent crimes. Here's just one that might surprise you: People with legal concealed carry permits have committed at least 29 mass shootings since 2007 (The Washington Post 10/26/15). Cold comfort for me.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Given that there are over 14-1/2 MILLION concealed permit holders in the USA? You are correct that there are doubtless a small percentage that are bad operators. I do not defend anyone who breaks the law. EVERY occupation on earth also a has a small percentage of folks who commit all forms of bad things to innocent people. I like airplane people a lot, but accept that there are doubtless some who deserve horse-dragging or hanging for the deeds they do.

Perhaps I'm a rose-colored glasses optimist (and everyone who knows me just laughed out loud) I would be far more inclined to welcome those who have been vetted onto my lands than those who have not. Understanding that most all folks are basically good.

[Mayhemxpc]

Let's go back. We were talking about security screeners at OSH -- the only place in the world (other than in my hangar) where I am reasonably certain my airplane is safe when left unattended, and people regularly leave their electronics plugged in and unattended confident that no one will help themselves. Nonetheless, I was talking to a senior management type of a security company just yesterday, discussing how we could improve screening and security at events like Airventure while being relatively unobtrusive -- and not requiring a shakedown for pocket knives and such. Seriously speaking, was anyone actually denied entry for a pocketknife? For me it is not a matter of whether I have one, but how many and what kind of tools they include.

Floats, I could easily challenge the Violence Policy Center "report" that the WaPo article was based on -- but that is not pertinent to this thread or forum.

[mazdaP5]

I had a pocket knife in my bag, they missed it every time. I ended up just leaving it behind because it was a gift from my nieces and I didn't want to lose it.

[DaleB]

Why on earth would you leave a pocket knife behind, and why would anyone care about one in your backpack? They're not prohibited.

[Lrrryo]

You are living or thinking in a comfortable bubble of your own making. I wish I was as confident and optimist as you that permit holders are all law abiding citizens. That is not only a gross miscalculation but a horribly misguided generalization. And what do you base that on? Some anecdotal evidence from friends and relatives? Emotional response?

There are tons of US statistics about permit holders involved in violent crimes. Here's just one that might surprise you: People with legal concealed carry permits have committed at least 29 mass shootings since 2007 (The Washington Post 10/26/15). Cold comfort for me.

Oh, I agree with you... there's always some bad apples in a group. So, would you rather be unarmed? Or do you think some teen aged girl at the bag check point is going to stop them?

[FlyingRon]

In nearly all states that issue them, concealed carry permit holders have a more stringent criminal background check than that which is necessary to buy or possess guns in general.

What the permit doesn't engender is how much common sense the applicant has.

[Mike M]

Well, I have a carry permit and own several pistols and a slew of various long guns. The guys who jump up and down and cry about constitutional right to carry guns into certain places they are reasonably denied are the people I am scared of. These are almost certainly the same guys who have had at least one negligent discharge in their life.

I for one wasn't jumping up and down to defend a right to carry when I wrote "A huge percentage of EAA are current or former military or police. Yet EAA requires us to voluntarily disarm to attend their magnet event." So to be clear, this post is not because I'm fighting mad. Just confused.

There is NO reason that makes sense to me for the vast majority of legal gun owners, ESPECIALLY the vast majority of current and former military and police, to be disarmed when attending a large public gathering. Hijackings dropped when the armed federal air marshall program began. Increased security at major events usually includes increased armed police presence, often with undercover officers throughout the crowd in addition to K9 units and SWAT teams visible to arriving guests. The deterrence to a threat of violence is usually increasing the probability of failure, failure to achieve the violence or failure to avoid punishment, achieved in part by denying the bad actors a full knowledge of the defense they must breach. Bad guys choose soft targets. An unknown number of defenders with unknown capability in addition to the visible counters makes their job harder, perhaps unattainable. Why tell the wolves you have a pen full of sheep? Let them guess. Or - perhaps we don't trust the majority of our trained, experienced current and former employees? Are we that lousy an employer? Do we only want the criminals and terrorists to have weapons while good guys are defenseless?

I don't. Your mileage may vary.

[FlyingRon]

You're deluded. None of the things you've claimed have ever been shown to be true, even in the FASCIST NRA's most optimistic slant on it.

[baboss]

Seriously speaking, was anyone actually denied entry for a pocketknife? For me it is not a matter of whether I have one, but how many and what kind of tools they include.
A couple of years ago we were held up at the entrance gate from the North 40 by what looked like a college aged "security" person. One guard was checking our backpack and another one at the table noticed my pocket knife clipped in my pocket. She told me no knives allowed and I had to read her the actual rules regarding blade length and everything while proceeding to bring up the rule on the EAA website. I got the feeling she didn't like being challenged and finally another security person came over and after some discussion let us in.
This year the goofball security lady at the North 40 entrance asked if she could search our backpack and I casually replied "I guess". She didn't like that and told me I should follow all the rules and authorities. That pissed me off yet again but I somehow kept my mouth shut. This was the same lady that wanted to check our backpack as we were leaving the show grounds back into the North 40. Not sure why...

[VP1]

It's security theater. Nothing more, nothing less. It's stupid. How secure can an event be when the general public can freely fly into it?

[CHICAGORANDY]

It's security theater. Nothing more, nothing less. It's stupid. How secure can an event be when the general public can freely fly into it?

+100

Like many so called 'security' measures, it is merely going to allow the less-than fully-educated and aware folks to "Feel Safe". These days it seems to me as a self-admitted curmudgeon that it doesn't matter if a measure ACTUALLY improves safety as long as it looks like it does. The masses need their feelings soothed. I have no doubt that the EAA wants to appear to be doing all it can to keep their guests 'safe' and the part-time gate "guards' are part of that effort.

[Mayhemxpc]

So I broke down and looked it up. Knives longer than 4 inches are prohibited and it doesn't distinguish between fixed and folding blades. That would then imply that knives up to but not including 4" are allowed, whether folding or fixed blade. 4" is pretty long for anything but a combat knife and some of those are only 4". I would say that is a pretty generous rule. The stories here indicate that there may be a training problem on the part of the screeners and their managers. If there is a problem on that point, that is also an indicator that there may be problems in other aspects of their training.

That said, there were some stalls selling some pretty mean looking knives at the Fly Market.

Coolers. I do not understand why they are a security issue. I might understand prohibiting large coolers for other reasons, maybe, but security? The policy says aircraft campers can have larger coolers that remain at the campsite but only after they are inspected and tagged by security. Any campers have their coolers inspected and tagged?

It also notes that bags are subject to random inspections, going back to the beginning of the thread. So some people may be checked and others not, consistent with the published policy.

Is is it possible to avoid turning this into a 2A/right to carry argument? I think that there are enough other serious issues that can improve or better understand EAA security policy than to get into something that will have no good outcome. (And just so you know where I stand, I think that every argument for and against this by every poster on this thread has flaws -- even the ones I generally agree with.)

[Kyle Boatright]

So I broke down and looked it up. Knives longer than 4 inches are prohibited and it doesn't distinguish between fixed and folding blades. That would then imply that knives up to but not including 4" are allowed, whether folding or fixed blade. 4" is pretty long for anything but a combat knife and some of those are only 4". I would say that is a pretty generous rule. The stories here indicate that there may be a training problem on the part of the screeners and their managers. If there is a problem on that point, that is also an indicator that there may be problems in other aspects of their training.

That said, there were some stalls selling some pretty mean looking knives at the Fly Market.

Coolers. I do not understand why they are a security issue. I might understand prohibiting large coolers for other reasons, maybe, but security? The policy says aircraft campers can have larger coolers that remain at the campsite but only after they are inspected and tagged by security. Any campers have their coolers inspected and tagged?

It also notes that bags are subject to random inspections, going back to the beginning of the thread. So some people may be checked and others not, consistent with the published policy.

Is is it possible to avoid turning this into a 2A/right to carry argument? I think that there are enough other serious issues that can improve or better understand EAA security policy than to get into something that will have no good outcome. (And just so you know where I stand, I think that every argument for and against this by every poster on this thread has flaws -- even the ones I generally agree with.)

I detest these threads. There are published rules (like the ones on coolers) that the EAA selectively enforces (I don't think they want coolers full of alcohol on the primary flightline). What I'd hate to see is a thread like this drive EAA to A) Bother campers about their coolers. B) Prohibit coolers in the campgrounds C) Whatever the next steps are.

It is security theater. Recognize it as such and move on. My sense is EAA is following (not leading) the herd on this and has no great interest in cracking down on things as they are today. Let's not raise the topic to a noise level where it requires attention. More attention will not result in less security theater.

[Bill Greenwood]

Maybe we have to trust that the folks who run EAA and put on a huge event like Airventure will find the right balance on security issues, and being respectful of the goodwill and good folks that exist inside the gates with the possible trouble points that unfortunately are part of the world outside. Some days, maybe even most days, it is sickening to look at the headlines, as if there is just no kindness left in the world.
I dont come to Oskosh to think about how big a knife the rules will allow me to bring or if I can bring a gun, wouldnt go if I thought I needed either, I come to enjoy the planes and people.
No one wants Osh to be like TSA at an airport.

[Lrrryo]

A couple of years ago we were held up at the entrance gate from the North 40 by what looked like a college aged "security" person. One guard was checking our backpack and another one at the table noticed my pocket knife clipped in my pocket. She told me no knives allowed and I had to read her the actual rules regarding blade length and everything while proceeding to bring up the rule on the EAA website. I got the feeling she didn't like being challenged and finally another security person came over and after some discussion let us in.
This year the goofball security lady at the North 40 entrance asked if she could search our backpack and I casually replied "I guess". She didn't like that and told me I should follow all the rules and authorities. That pissed me off yet again but I somehow kept my mouth shut. This was the same lady that wanted to check our backpack as we were leaving the show grounds back into the North 40. Not sure why...

That's a classic example of too much power for a wanna be pretend cop. Sure, we appreciate the volunteers that run the show, but they do need some training and reasonable discretion.

[Lrrryo]

Well, I have a carry permit and own several pistols and a slew of various long guns. The guys who jump up and down and cry about constitutional right to carry guns into certain places they are reasonably denied are the people I am scared of. These are almost certainly the same guys who have had at least one negligent discharge in their life.

Ron,

I doubt you have stats to prove this. If more folks would cry out, support our constitution, and call the leader to be responsible, we wouldn't have the sheeple led country that we've had over the last 8 years. We certainly don't want over control and ridiculous policy at OSH. As an EAA member we should stand up for what we believe.

[Mayhemxpc]

Maybe we have to trust that the folks who run EAA and put on a huge event like Airventure will find the right balance on security issues, and being respectful of the goodwill and good folks that exist inside the gates with the possible trouble points that unfortunately are part of the world outside. Some days, maybe even most days, it is sickening to look at the headlines, as if there is just no kindness left in the world.
I dont come to Oskosh to think about how big a knife the rules will allow me to bring or if I can bring a gun, wouldnt go if I thought I needed either, I come to enjoy the planes and people.
No one wants Osh to be like TSA at an airport.

OK Bill, I amend my previous post. I agree with everything you wrote in the post above.

[Mike M]

You're deluded. None of the things you've claimed have ever been shown to be true, even in the FASCIST NRA's most optimistic slant on it.

Who's deluded?

USA hijackings increased when the armed federal air marshal program began? Increased security at major events usually includes decreased armed police presence, without plainclothes officers in the crowd? Deterrence to a threat usually provides potential bad actors a full knowledge of the defense they must breach? Bad guys choose hard targets? Leave your doors and windows unlocked and your keys in the car on your driveway overnight?

Who's deluded? :D

P.S.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4077808

[deftone]

I guess the trick to avoid being searched was to have a stroller. We had our 1 year old with stroller and associated diaper bags etc and was not searched once the entire 9 days we were there. :P

[Rick Rademacher]

I guess the trick to avoid being searched was to have a stroller. We had our 1 year old with stroller and associated diaper bags etc and was not searched once the entire 9 days we were there. :P

Or ride the Green tram from the Bus Park, out side the gate to the ATC tower only holding up your hand to show the wristband while traveling through the gate.

[scottf]

I think the difference here is that I don't pay the NFL the NBA or any other sports organization to defend me against purposeless government regulation. Conversely speaking I do pay the EAA to protect me from that.

I don't think we would find a single person at EAA from Mr. Pelton on down that thinks the TSA is anything but security theater. To me it is about the highest in hypocrisy you can get the EAA subjecting it's membership to this joke of a search. Worse, beyond the inconvenience of it all, it lends credence to the notion that we in the public should just sit back and begin Accepting these purposeless searches as a normal fact of life. How can you protect me from overbearing regulation when you're actively participating in it yourselves - worse when you do it you do it with undertrained unqualified unsupervised without background checks volunteers? So what exactly is this security? How can you attack the TSA for what they do when you yourselves do it in a manner that is nothing but laughable?

so yes there is a difference between the NBA and the EAA. One is a corporation whose primary purpose is to make money - Eaa on the other hand used to exist principaly to protect our rights as homebuilders and aviators. Creating the "TS EAA"to check security or paying for air traffic control Or a host of other things that have happened over the last few years would tend to call into question the If the core values of EAA remain those that Paul created it for.

[krw920]

worse when you do it you do it with undertrained unqualified unsupervised without background checks volunteers?

One correction here, the people wearing the blue shirts with the word Security on them are NOT volunteers. They are paid EAA employees, so they are supervised, may have had background checks and one could also assume some training of some sort.

[Lrrryo]

I think the difference here is that I don't pay the NFL the NBA or any other sports organization to defend me against purposeless government regulation. Conversely speaking I do pay the EAA to protect me from that.

I don't think we would find a single person at EAA from Mr. Pelton on down that thinks the TSA is anything but security theater. To me it is about the highest in hypocrisy you can get the EAA subjecting it's membership to this joke of a search. Worse, beyond the inconvenience of it all, it lends credence to the notion that we in the public should just sit back and begin Accepting these purposeless searches as a normal fact of life. How can you protect me from overbearing regulation when you're actively participating in it yourselves - worse when you do it you do it with undertrained unqualified unsupervised without background checks volunteers? So what exactly is this security? How can you attack the TSA for what they do when you yourselves do it in a manner that is nothing but laughable?

so yes there is a difference between the NBA and the EAA. One is a corporation whose primary purpose is to make money - Eaa on the other hand used to exist principaly to protect our rights as homebuilders and aviators. Creating the "TS EAA"to check security or paying for air traffic control Or a host of other things that have happened over the last few years would tend to call into question the If the core values of EAA remain those that Paul created it for.

Spot on, Scottf!

[RickFE]

I had a pocket knife in my bag, they missed it every time. I ended up just leaving it behind because it was a gift from my nieces and I didn't want to lose it.

Although not OSH, my grandson and I were at SnF. He had his pocketknife in his backpack. We wanted to go to the Fly-Market. When he realized bag checkers were going to store our day packs, he began to get nervous and asked if we could just leave. I could see his panic setting in so I began asking why he suddenly seemed so scared to go to the Fly-Market. He whispered that his pocket knife was in his day pack and he was basically scared to death that he was now doing something extraordinarily wrong. In front of the people checking in bags I explained to him that having a pocket knife is not a crime and that aside from his school, probably most people don't even care. I then pointed out that I had one in my front pocket as well and considering the number of hobbyist etc. that are in there looking at cool junk, that I would wager a good 25% of them have at least one as well.

I am glad that the bag checkers were quick to back me up by pointing out to him that it was perfectly ok to have a pocket knife in your bag. As we left I heard the one bag checker comment to the other "it's the schools, they have all these kids scared to death about everything."

[Lrrryo]

Although not OSH, my grandson and I were at SnF. He had his pocketknife in his backpack. We wanted to go to the Fly-Market. When he realized bag checkers were going to store our day packs, he began to get nervous and asked if we could just leave. I could see his panic setting in so I began asking why he suddenly seemed so scared to go to the Fly-Market. He whispered that his pocket knife was in his day pack and he was basically scared to death that he was now doing something extraordinarily wrong. In front of the people checking in bags I explained to him that having a pocket knife is not a crime and that aside from his school, probably most people don't even care. I then pointed out that I had one in my front pocket as well and considering the number of hobbyist etc. that are in there looking at cool junk, that I would wager a good 25% of them have at least one as well.

I am glad that the bag checkers were quick to back me up by pointing out to him that it was perfectly ok to have a pocket knife in your bag. As we left I heard the one bag checker comment to the other "it's the schools, they have all these kids scared to death about everything."

That's an absolute shame. The schools and authorities have gone down hill big time. I'd be on the board fighting that nonsense. Can you imagine what the next group of leaders will be like, that don't have a clue what freedom is.

[martymayes]

What would the bag checkers do if they found any contraband? Give a "don't bring that next time" warning? Didn't see any boxes with confiscated material at any checkpoint.

[Mayhemxpc]

Pocketknives and boys. I have a couple of old editions of the Boy Scout Handbook (or rather Handbook for Boys) where it says that a good pocketknife is something that every boy should always have with him. Even more recent handbooks say that the pocketknife is the most essential tool a boy can have and to always have one when outdoors -- with the current versions warning not to bring them to schools or airports. (I suppose it depends what side of the airport you are going to. As we already addressed, OSH is OK.) The current prohibition on pocketknives past security at the airport terminal, I read, did not come from the TSA. They actually lifted the restriction when the Europeans did. That lasted for a couple of weeks when the restriction was reinstated due to pressure from Flight Attendants' Unions. So I read. If someone knows differently, please correct me.

[rwanttaja]

Pocketknives and boys. I have a couple of old editions of the Boy Scout Handbook (or rather Handbook for Boys) where it says that a good pocketknife is something that every boy should always have with him.
Yep, times have changed. The attached is from the "Preflight Study Manual for Civil Air Patrol Cadets," dated about 1944. Note that it provides instruction for injecting morphine.....

http://www.wanttaja.com/cap_man.jpg

Ron Wanttaja

[dogtags]

I guess the trick to avoid being searched was to have a stroller. We had our 1 year old with stroller and associated diaper bags etc and was not searched once the entire 9 days we were there. :P

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170825/f5588321709c2cc98298df4d3523ec91.jpg

...or go through this guys gate.

[Floatsflyer]

Not nice to shame or ridicule someone who volunteers. But really, EAA, this is on you, you get what you pay for.

[dogtags]

Not nice to shame or ridicule someone who volunteers. But really, EAA, this is on you, you get what you pay for.

After I woke him up (to make sure he didn't have a health issue) he told me that this security job was a paid position. So I guess, in this case, EAA didn't get what they paid for.

As a volunteer that was there all week, I saw a wide variety of security at the gates I used. At the beginning of the week it was like Fort Knox, but by the end it seemed like none of the paid security (the blue shirts) really cared what happened.

Over worked? Under paid? I don't know but it would be nice to have consistent standards all week.

[Floatsflyer]

After I woke him up (to make sure he didn't have a health issue) he told me that this security job was a paid position. So I guess, in this case, EAA didn't get what they paid for.

OK, paid position, which would probably be Wisconsin's minimum wage of $7.25 which is one of the lowest in the entire country. I still believe EAA got what they paid for. Doing the math based on a paid 35 hour week that's $13,195.00 a year which is far below the poverty line.

So his Sleepiness in Oshkosh is a resulting combination of uncomfortable hot, humid, sweaty weather, wet from rainfall, bored to death sitting in a tiny cubicle for 8 hours a day(so small he has to walk outside to change his mind) and crappy pay. I know he didn't have to accept this jobette but he shouldn't have to lose any dignity because he did.

[wyoranch]

OK, paid position, which would probably be Wisconsin's minimum wage of $7.25 which is one of the lowest in the entire country. I still believe EAA got what they paid for. Doing the math based on a paid 35 hour week that's $13,195.00 a year which is far below the poverty line.

So his Sleepiness in Oshkosh is a resulting combination of uncomfortable hot, humid, sweaty weather, wet from rainfall, bored to death sitting in a tiny cubicle for 8 hours a day(so small he has to walk outside to change his mind) and crappy pay. I know he didn't have to accept this jobette but he shouldn't have to lose any dignity because he did.
Floats with all due respect, I am fairly sure sleeping was not part of the job description. To me that is just robbing EAA of the capital investment. What dignity or ethics do you have if you think it is ok to sleep while performing a SECURITY position. I guess I am a fool for thinking that when you sign up for something you actually perform, shame on me.
Rick

[azmedic85355]

Without getting into details,there were far more agencies (not counting the TSA) involved in OSH security than some minimum wage security clerks. There may have even been plainclothes folks walking amongst you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Floatsflyer]

Floats with all due respect, I am fairly sure sleeping was not part of the job description. To me that is just robbing EAA of the capital investment. What dignity or ethics do you have if you think it is ok to sleep while performing a SECURITY position.
Rick

I'm sure sleeping wasn't part of the job description either but give this poor schmuck a break. He looks like a senior who dozed off for a few moments because of environmental and biological reasons. Who hasn't dozed off at their office workplace on occasion? I know I did once or twice over a 42 year career and I was being paid more than this guy.

Let's not be so hasty to judge and send him to the Bastille and off with his head!

With respect to "robbing EAA of the capital investment", I have decided to send EAA a cheque for 72.5 cents representing the probable maximum 6 minutes he was asleep---a donation in your name.

[Mayhemxpc]

Yep, times have changed. The attached is from the "Preflight Study Manual for Civil Air Patrol Cadets," dated about 1944. Note that it provides instruction for injecting morphine.....



Ron Wanttaja

Ron, you got something against having morphine in your airplane's emergency kit? ;) I remember when codeine was sold over the counter and the shoe store would fluoroscope your feet. Every doctor's office seemed to have one too. Times do change, but neither a boy or a gentleman should ever be without a pocketknife. For other human beings it is highly recommended, but not required.