Memorial Wall Honoring those lost traveling to and from OshKosh

[1600vw]

Every year there are people " Aviators" who loose their life traveling to and from OshKosh. Is there a wall of some sort or some other thing that honors these poor souls? There were a couple this year that I know of. One happened in Mo. Two 60 year old women I believe flying a zenith 701 and then there was these two.

I am sure there are others but hope not. R.I.P.


http://videos.lifetributes.com/822151

Tony

P.S. I am told this was another Zenith Stol. The family told me this.

[mikey]

you are correct in that this seems to happen every year. I don't think you are going to see EAA advertise that fact with a memorial though. bad for business.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Worth noting in our private prayers but I'd humbly suggest a formal permanent tribute would be like the Indy 500 listing those who died in a car crash while driving to and from the event. Not very likely to happen IMHO.

[SteveCostello]

bad for business.

True statement right there.

My wife was dismayed when I said that it seems like every year, there is at least one fatal accident related in some way to Oshkosh. (She wasn't at that show, but was the first person to inform me of the multiple arrival accidents, as well as the seaplane accident). Be that at the show (i.e., the seaplane accident), or on the way to/fro. While the number of KOSH operations may make it the busiest airport for the week, the sheer number of ancillary operations around the country in support of or related to Oshkosh has to be incredible... so it stands to reason that, statistically, things will happen.

I'm not sure how I'd be able to handle that as an organizer, knowing that my event is the reason (not the cause... the reason - a very large distinction) for a fatality. I suppose the most appropriate reaction is that ultimately, the PIC is the one responsible for their life and that of their passengers. Perhaps the better question is: how can Oshkosh *improve* the statistics for aircraft operations related to the event?

I think they've addressed this in large part with all of the incredibly educational forums available. From topics like Preventing LOC - Ground and LOC - Air (both very informative), as well as the forum on actually arriving to Oshkosh. It sure sounds like the vast majority of fatal accidents that are in some way related to Oshkosh boil down to one simple thing: pilot error or misjudgment. Case in point: the numerous pilots who seem to think that the NOTAM is optional for them. Or don't even know it exists.

We simply need to be better pilots.

A memorial wall would be bad form, and bad press. GA already has a hard enough time as it is (look at general population comments on Facebook every time a small plane goes down. We have a PR problem). Continued effort at education and reforming bad pilot behavior patterns is the best form of "memorial" that the EAA could build.

[DaleB]

There was a smaller event known as "Tannkosh" in Germany. Small compared to Oshkosh, but pretty big for Germany. It was an annual fly-in that was growing every year. I was planning to attend, though I wouldn't be able to fly of course. After 2013 they decided to skip 2014. As I was planning my trip for the 2015 gathering, I saw that they had cancelled it -- and all future events as well. They decided that, rather than risk someone having an accident while attending, they would simply pull the plug and not do it any more. (Announcement here (http://www.tannkosh.de/tannkosh/tannkosh-news/tannkosh-news/eine-aera-geht-zu-ende/))

EAA has no control over how people fly. They can take every precaution and make every effort to put on a safe event, but anything this large is going to come with some chance of unfortunate incidents. The only way to avoid that would be to stop having the event. I think we in the US have a different attitude about things like risk, personal responsibility and liability than a lot of Europeans.

[Floatsflyer]

A memorial wall would be bad form, and bad press. GA already has a hard enough time as it is (look at general population comments on Facebook every time a small plane goes down. We have a PR problem). Continued effort at education and reforming bad pilot behavior patterns is the best form of "memorial" that the EAA could build.

Agree, a memorial wall is bad form, bad press, bad for business and just a dumb dumb idea that would bring undesireable and unwanted attention. Hell, we already get too much bad press and negative attention. First thing you learn in Marketing 101 is accentuate the positive, ignore the negative.

Disagree, we don't have a PR problem, we have an ignorance problem and unfortunately no amount of continuing education for the past 114 years has or will change that. The media in their reporting of GA accidents makes sure of that and the general public gladly swallows the sensationalism and resulting ignorance it spews. Media motto: Lead with the red, follow up with the dread!

[martymayes]

We simply need to be better pilots.


!!! Exclamation points added! And it takes such little investment. Unfortunately, you'll never get enough on board to make a difference.

[SteveCostello]

!!! Exclamation points added! And it takes such little investment. Unfortunately, you'll never get enough on board to make a difference.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think that Nall report is indicative of a trend of decreased fatal accidents per flight hour, and that is a testament to better training for GA. The alphabets (FAA, NTSB, EAA, AOPA, as well as owner groups like COPA) have really stepped up their game.

That said... there are definitely pilots out there who have no interest in attending safety seminars, FAAST meetings, etc. Not a whole lot we can do about those folks (except avoid flying with/around them). But based on the number of experienced pilots I saw in attendance at the Preventing LOC - Ground forum at OSH17 (the room was PACKED), I feel like a LOT of people are interested in becoming safer pilots.

[wallda]

True statement right there.

My wife was dismayed when I said that it seems like every year, there is at least one fatal accident related in some way to Oshkosh. (She wasn't at that show, but was the first person to inform me of the multiple arrival accidents, as well as the seaplane accident). Be that at the show (i.e., the seaplane accident), or on the way to/fro. While the number of KOSH operations may make it the busiest airport for the week, the sheer number of ancillary operations around the country in support of or related to Oshkosh has to be incredible... so it stands to reason that, statistically, things will happen.

I'm not sure how I'd be able to handle that as an organizer, knowing that my event is the reason (not the cause... the reason - a very large distinction) for a fatality. I suppose the most appropriate reaction is that ultimately, the PIC is the one responsible for their life and that of their passengers. Perhaps the better question is: how can Oshkosh *improve* the statistics for aircraft operations related to the event?

I think they've addressed this in large part with all of the incredibly educational forums available. From topics like Preventing LOC - Ground and LOC - Air (both very informative), as well as the forum on actually arriving to Oshkosh. It sure sounds like the vast majority of fatal accidents that are in some way related to Oshkosh boil down to one simple thing: pilot error or misjudgment. Case in point: the numerous pilots who seem to think that the NOTAM is optional for them. Or don't even know it exists.

We simply need to be better pilots.

A memorial wall would be bad form, and bad press. GA already has a hard enough time as it is (look at general population comments on Facebook every time a small plane goes down. We have a PR problem). Continued effort at education and reforming bad pilot behavior patterns is the best form of "memorial" that the EAA could build.

Very well stated!

[Floatsflyer]

... there are definitely pilots out there who have no interest in attending safety seminars, FAAST meetings, etc. Not a whole lot we can do about those folks (except avoid flying with/around them). But based on the number of experienced pilots I saw in attendance at the Preventing LOC - Ground forum at OSH17 (the room was PACKED), I feel like a LOT of people are interested in becoming safer pilots.

Following up on the sad tribute video posted by the OP of the couple who died in a crash on the way to Oshkosh, here are the facts as published by the NTSB's Preliminary Report:

-Took off at 4:00AM destination KOSH in IMC.
-Plane was a Zenith CH701SP flown by a non- instrument rated Sport Pilot.
-Crashed 4:15AM in a nose down attitude, 2 fatally injured.

I'm not making judgements but I think all of us here know what happened. The only remaining questions are WHY would you leave the ground in darkness and IMC prevailing? Do you think this Sport Pilot ever had a chance of becoming a safer pilot?

[1600vw]

Following up on the sad tribute video posted by the OP of the couple who died in a crash on the way to Oshkosh, here are the facts as published by the NTSB's Preliminary Report:

-Took off at 4:00AM destination KOSH in IMC.
-Plane was a Zenith CH701SP flown by a non- instrument rated Sport Pilot.
-Crashed 4:15AM in a nose down attitude, 2 fatally injured.

I'm not making judgements but I think all of us here know what happened. The only remaining questions are WHY would you leave the ground in darkness and IMC prevailing? Do you think this Sport Pilot ever had a chance of becoming a safer pilot?

Thank you for the update on this. Now I must ask, why. Why would anyone do this? Some people have a death wish I guess. Un freaking believable.
Thanks again.

[robert l]

When Harrison Ford had his incident on the golf course, the media said he crashed ! Not true, he made an emergency landing just like we as pilots were taught and practiced. He did an excellent job of not killing himself or anyone else. Why can't they just give the facts ?
Bob

[Joda]

The news media, and the pilot population as well, seem to always point out that certain accidents happened "while they were on their way to Oshkosh", or "while they were returning from Oshkosh", as if the event itself somehow contributed to the accident. The fact is, aircraft accidents (like auto accidents) happen with some frequency. There are no doubt some folks who get involved in auto accidents on the way to or from Oshkosh as well. Nobody makes mention of that.

The accident and the event are only tangentially connected. The event certainly didn't cause the accident. The accident may well have occurred on that day to that airplane regardless of whether the pilot was heading to or from a particular event or just riding around for a pleasure flight. It's not the event's fault.

Oh, and on a side note, unless you're buying pants, "Oshkosh" is one word with only one upper case letter. "OshKosh" is a trademark of the "OshKosh B'gosh" corporation, and not the way to spell the city's name (nor the Chief for which it is named). Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine. Thanks for understanding.

[DaleB]

When Harrison Ford had his incident on the golf course, the media said he crashed ! Not true, he made an emergency landing just like we as pilots were taught and practiced. He did an excellent job of not killing himself or anyone else. Why can't they just give the facts ?
Bob
Well, to be fair... an off airport emergency landing that substantially damages the airplane and sends the pilot to the hospital could reasonably be called a "crash". If I'd done the same thing, I would fully expect people to describe it as such.

[martymayes]

That said... there are definitely pilots out there who have no interest in attending safety seminars, FAAST meetings, etc. Not a whole lot we can do about those folks (except avoid flying with/around them). But based on the number of experienced pilots I saw in attendance at the Preventing LOC - Ground forum at OSH17 (the room was PACKED), I feel like a LOT of peat ople are interested in becoming safer pilots.

Well, that's kinda my point. The pilots that would most benefit from training by participating in forums like "Preventing LOC" don't participate. Can't just ignore them because we are all a piece in the puzzle. Even when we avoid flying with/around them, they are impacting our insurance rates and regs that we all have to follow.

[martymayes]

Thank you for the update on this. Now I must ask, why. Why would anyone do this? Some people have a death wish I guess. Un freaking believable.
Thanks again.

I guarantee he had every intention of landing at OSH as planned. Certainly we have all had things go not exactly as planned.

[Floatsflyer]

I guarantee he had every intention of landing at OSH as planned. Certainly we have all had things go not exactly as planned.

Huh?!?

If planning had anything to do with this flight/fatal crash we wouldn't be here talking about it. Guaranteed!

[robert l]

The news media, and the pilot population as well, seem to always point out that certain accidents happened "while they were on their way to Oshkosh", or "while they were returning from Oshkosh", as if the event itself somehow contributed to the accident. The fact is, aircraft accidents (like auto accidents) happen with some frequency. There are no doubt some folks who get involved in auto accidents on the way to or from Oshkosh as well. Nobody makes mention of that.

The accident and the event are only tangentially connected. The event certainly didn't cause the accident. The accident may well have occurred on that day to that airplane regardless of whether the pilot was heading to or from a particular event or just riding around for a pleasure flight. It's not the event's fault.

Oh, and on a side note, unless you're buying pants, "Oshkosh" is one word with only one upper case letter. "OshKosh" is a trademark of the "OshKosh B'gosh" corporation, and not the way to spell the city's name (nor the Chief for which it is named). Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine. Thanks for understanding.

WOW ! What Waco said ! And on the word Oshkosh, It amazes me how many people don't know the origin of their cities and towns names. I find it interesting myself.
Bob

[martymayes]

Huh?!?

If planning had anything to do with this flight/fatal crash we wouldn't be here talking about it. Guaranteed!

There are a few people that get in a plane with the intention of dying. Excluding 9-11, those flights are usually solo and there's usually no specific destination. Nothing to indicate that was the case here. The pilot had a plan, it just wasn't a very good one. I've been there, not my proudest moment.

[Bill Greenwood]

The Zenith accident is extra sad since those young folks seem like the kind of nice people we meet at Osh. I dont think he had a death wish. Just a guess, but if he was a sport pilot maybe he never had any training nor ever experienced losing control from vfr in imc weather. We dont know if he had any imc training oreven if the Zenith had an artificial horizon . Night imc is tough and even if marginal can be bad. It says " no record of a flight briefing", Did he totally ignore that part of flight planning or more liklely he got something on a cell phone that he thought was good enough. If I was departing in night imc, especially in a plane with lesser equipment, I'd want a real thorogh conversation with a actual FSS person., maybe supplement with a radar/satelite view. Ar 4 am there may not have been many current reports. He may have had some visibility under clouds and intended to fly that way, had a gps, might have had some lighted features on the ground near the airport, that vanished over farmland. We dont know the exact weather, but waiting 2 hours for daylight might have been a life saver.

[mikey]

how does the old saying go? "if you crash in bad weather, they'll be picking up the pieces the next day in the sunshine"

[Floatsflyer]

There's another old saying: You can't teach common sense and good judgement.

Something else. The sport pilot certificated pilot was flying at night. Seems silly to add this to the pile but he broke the sport pilot regs. SP's are prohibited from flying at night.

[Kurt Flunkn]

If you want an eye opener, visit the ntsb website:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/index.aspx

And in the "event details" section, enter "oshkosh " in the word string search. Starting with January 1, 2007 and ending on today's date yielded 62 results from all over the country and even one in Switzerland. This includes fatal and non-fatal accidents....

[rwanttaja]

Reminds me of the old science fiction movie "Moon Zero Two". It's set on the moon, and is basically a western. There's a memorial plaque listing the names of those who died exploring and settling the moon, but they put it in the pilot's lounge to keep from scaring the tourists.....

Ron "Smells like ordinary air...."Wanttaja

[Mayhemxpc]

Night. IMC. Sport pilot. Nothing more should need to be said and travel to OSH should not be an issue.

That said, I did many things as a young and inexperienced pilot that I would never think about doing now. (Well, I might THINK about doing it.) Sort of like when I teach a pilot safety course and list stupid things pilots have done. I say to the assembled aviators "I am sure that none of you would ever do such things and I can assure you that I would never do that...again."