Arrival Issues

[Inspector Fenwick]

When I post something like this, or my (annual) food/scurvy complaint, it is to be taken that I consider this event the best of it's kind, by far, than any other. I arrive with enthusiasm and I leave charged with a "life force" that, unfortunately, only lasts about 4 months at which time I am busy planning on the next Airventure.

This post, however, is about my arrival on Saturday afternoon, the 22nd. There is no sense at all for me to complain about the blue and white Cessna I was following to 27 who completely disregarded the towers requests for him to land on the numbers. He was high and slow and finally went around. Oh, well.....overwhelmed, I guess.

No, my issue is with the flag men directing traffic. If you are doing this, and you cannot see the pilots face in the windshield, then he/she is not seeing you wave your flags or your arms. During my L O N G taxi south to VAC, three times I had to stop, and rotate my plane, a large taildragger, in order to see the flag person. Then a grumpy scooter rider would ride up to give me the stink eye. This issue is basic ground marshaling 101. The pilot sits on the left and your waving arms and flags need to be lined up with the pilots line of sight, not far to the right side of the aircraft. The Vintage folks know this, but up north.....chaos.

This issue was the talk of the town and hope some retraining occurred after Saturday.

Thanks to ALL volunteers, goes without saying.

[FlyingRon]

Yeah, I'll mention that to the FLS chair next time I talk to him. One of the really scary ones is some of the North 40 marshallers who seem to want you to put the prop right on them before they give you the next instruction. Sorry, I ain't getting that close no matter who you are.

[TedK]

You guys make some very valid points about the marshallers.

Please permit be a modicum of thread drift, but remaining under the general topic of Arrival Issues (or in this case, lack of) to post a screenshot of my iPad showing the VFR arrivals into Ripon about 6:17 CT on Saturday the 22nd. In order to increase the utility of ADS-B approach OSH, commencing in 2016, the NOTAM permits everyone to keep their transponder on till they get to Ripon.

From this screenshot, taken well before I arrived at Ripon, you could see the general funnel constricting down to the conga line at Ripon.

As I approached Ripon, I had eyes on all the nearby traffic shown by ADS-B allowing me to concentrate on finding the few non sqawkers I knew must be there. Yep, there was one. Also close aboard to Ripon, I was watching for a Grumman Yankee I hadn't yet spotted but he and were verging toward the same spot. I was getting ready to do a Right 360 and resequence but spotted him rolling in behind me as we both approached Ripon.

My my eyes are still plenty good for a 2nd class medical but they just are no longer eagle eyed. ADS-B traffic is a godsend.

if you don't have ADS-B Out, please keep your transponder ON till after you are safely past Ripon. (If you have ADS-B Out, you keep it On).

ted

6581

[Inspector Fenwick]

Yeah, I'll mention that to the FLS chair next time I talk to him. One of the really scary ones is some of the North 40 marshallers who seem to want you to put the prop right on them before they give you the next instruction. Sorry, I ain't getting that close no matter who you are.

Ron, I was working in the Type Club Hangar on Sunday and mentioned the issue of the north side marshallers and he said "you need to go talk to OPS". Well, I stopped the OPS building on my way back to Row 85, and brought this issue up, but they apparently have no communication with the North Side Ops.

BTW, I have never had this issue with the marshallers at VAC and VAP......

[Grum.man]

Unless they have ADSB out they will not show up on your ADSB Inn screen regardless of if their transponder is reporting or not.

[FlyingRon]

The rank and file Ops people in Vintage don't communicate directly with the FLS guys up north. We relay it up through our chairmen. However, I know one of the FLS chairs personally, so we've worked together on things (like maps of all the row numbers on the field) and he's worked margy's fly in events locally.

[FlyingRon]

Unless they have ADSB out they will not show up on your ADSB Inn screen regardless of if their transponder is reporting or not.

That's not true. TIS-B presents (within your hockey puck) everything ATC radar sees whether it's a pure mode A/C or Mode S ES or ADSB out.

[TedK]

That's not true. TIS-B presents (within your hockey puck) everything ATC radar sees whether it's a pure mode A/C or Mode S ES or ADSB out.

You actually get more than that and can decide whether or not you just want the hockey puck traffic.

If you look at my screenshot, the Tracks with an N number are ADS-B Out. Those with no N number are Transponder tracks, showing well outside the hockey puck ranges.

[ssteve1]

You guys make some very valid points about the marshallers.

Please permit be a modicum of thread drift, but remaining under the general topic of Arrival Issues (or in this case, lack of) to post a screenshot of my iPad showing the VFR arrivals into Ripon about 6:17 CT on Saturday the 22nd. In order to increase the utility of ADS-B approach OSH, commencing in 2016, the NOTAM permits everyone to keep their transponder on till they get to Ripon.

From this screenshot, taken well before I arrived at Ripon, you could see the general funnel constricting down to the conga line at Ripon.

As I approached Ripon, I had eyes on all the nearby traffic shown by ADS-B allowing me to concentrate on finding the few non sqawkers I knew must be there. Yep, there was one. Also close aboard to Ripon, I was watching for a Grumman Yankee I hadn't yet spotted but he and were verging toward the same spot. I was getting ready to do a Right 360 and resequence but spotted him rolling in behind me as we both approached Ripon.

My my eyes are still plenty good for a 2nd class medical but they just are no longer eagle eyed. ADS-B traffic is a godsend.

if you don't have ADS-B Out, please keep your transponder ON till after you are safely past Ripon. (If you have ADS-B Out, you keep it On).

ted

6581

Not quite true, Ron. There is no thread drift.
Also, there may be more than a few (I know, "few" is a relative word) non-squawkers. These are the many who do NOT have ads-b out AND are required to squawk standby - in other words, you won't see them on your ads-b in/out. Also, there are those without ads-b who are also/should be squawking standby. You won't see these folks. And, finally, there are many many many who DO NOT fly with a transponder. So, unless you have the latestest, greatest most super duper airborne radar receiver which has the ability to skin paint a Ventura at 120 knots AND you have the time to sort out all of the "blips", well, sorry, you won't see these aircraft. Then, there those who are directed to break off the Fisk arrival or have chosen on there own to return to Rippon - - - AND, THE FAA HAS STILL HAS NOT TOLD US AT WHAT ALTITUDE WE SHOULD USE TO RETURN TO RIPPON!!!!, but, I digress. So, I will guess that you may only see 32.68% of the traffic displayed on your FAA unapproved ipad.
And of coursec a hearty, "Thank You to all of the volunteers".

[steve]

My story:
I arrived over Ripon about 4:30 local time on the 22nd. I was following a Red/White Citabria with the 1/2 mile spacing. The entire parade was flying slower than 90 kts but that's not a issue in my RV9A with it's big flaps set to 10 degrees. After a mile or so toward Fiske, I was passed by a 172 who squeezed in behind the Citabria. I decided to loop back to Ripon and start over. No big deal as I was out of ammo anyway.
The controller at Fiske gave me the 36L approach. All right, almost home. About a mile before turning final, a different Citabria and a canard plane crossed in front of me heading south. Where did those planes come from? Did ATC tell them to fly south and cross the traffic on the 36 base leg? The canard was directed to land on 36R and the Citabria is still heading south for all I know.

[ssteve1]

https://www.facebook.com/airtrafficcontrolmemes/videos/1254632201313601/?hc_location=ufi

[skyfixer8]

I remember him on ATC Live, at a hanger party. Was our entertainment for the eve.

[Mayhemxpc]

It says, "Try to hang on until the end, it's worth it (that's what she said?)" Maybe my hearing isn't what it was, but I never heard the payoff. I was hoping for something like..."I have a phone number you need to call, prepare to copy."

I have heard some pretty cringeworthy radio conversations during the OSH arrival, but this was the worst.

New story, same thread: I arrived Saturday afternoon using an IFR reservation. Strongly thought about cancelling over For Du Lac and taking the Warbird Arrival, but decided against it. Airplane behind me did call for the Warbirds approach. I was cleared for the RNAV 27 approach and the plane behind calls Warbird Island, only to be told that the field was now closed for to VFR arrivals 45 minutes due to the mass arrival of 116 Bonanzas. I felt sorry for him and several other planes who were told to go somewhere else or to hold for 45 minutes. On the other hand, I was VERY happy I had elected to remain IFR.

[FlyingRon]

The Warbird approach ends at 18. If the runways are closed (for whatever reason) you can't use it. You can go to Ripon or do some other approved approach (like the Prison).

[Cary]

I am always amazed at those who apparently haven't read the NOTAM, or even heard of the NOTAM, or worse, have heard of and have read it and have chosen to disregard it. Broken down into the pieces that affect me, I don't find it hard to read, or hard to follow.

Some years ago, I was getting ready to leave LaCrosse, WI, when an Aerostar on the ramp requested an IFR clearance to OSH. First, he didn't have an IFR flight plan, so he wanted to file it with LSE ground. Before ground would take it, ground asked if the pilot had the OSH NOTAM. "What NOTAM?" The controller described it, told him that he needed an arrival reservation, and that unless he had that, he wasn't getting in IFR. "Well, then I'll just buzz over there VFR." Then the controller advised him of the RIPON VFR approach with the choice of 90 knots at 1800' or 125 knots at 2300', and the pilot said, "I can't fly that slowly--I'll just talk to OSH tower." I haven't any idea what happened when he arrived at OSH, but I've certainly overheard enough pilots being told to use the RIPON arrival when they've tried contacting OSH tower directly.

This year, I had to overnight in Dubuque due to weather between there and OSH, so I flew in on Saturday. The weather in the Dubuque area was VFR, but not very far north of there, it was IFR. I was hoping to fly north IFR and then cancel north of Madison and go VFR thereafter. I've done that many times when I couldn't get a slot reservation. But Madison wasn't being all that cooperative--they wouldn't allow that this year.

But the very cooperative and helpful Chicago Center controller was amazing. When he told me that Madison wouldn't do it, he said I had 3 choices: I could fly to Madison VOR and hold (not a good choice, obviously); I could fly to Madison, shoot an approach, and land there (definitely not what I wanted to do); or I could do an end run around to the west which would give him and me more time to figure out a solution. I cogitated on it for a few minutes, called him back, and opted for the end run. He then gave me a series of vectors, which essentially had me skirt Madison airspace to the west.

Eventually he called and said that I had about 8 more minutes before I'd have to make a decision. So I asked him to get me as low as possible, and with any luck, I could get into VMC and fly the RIPON approach. So he cleared me to 3000'. I was still in the clouds, but periodically there were good sized holes to the ground. I told him that the next time I encountered a big enough hole, I'd cancel and circle down through it. Only a couple of minutes later, a really big hole opened up, so I cancelled, did a descending 360 and leveled off at 2000' under the clouds, with a good 20 miles of visibility in all directions. I decided to descend on down to 1800' to do the RIPON arrival, bee-lined for RIPON along the south end of Green Lake, and flew the RIPON-FISKE arrival with ease.

The only thing that was disconcerting about all that was that on my iPad, I could see an enormous number of airplanes converging on RIPON, but I couldn't see most of them out the windows! I have ADS-B Out on 1090 and In on both frequencies, 1090 and 978. I saw a couple of them at a distance, but not all of them. I could see one of them showing on the iPad gaining on me at 6 o'clock, and then my system triggered a warning about it. I was guessing that he wasn't seeing me, so I side-stepped a bit to the right. Suddenly an RV-something buzzed past me on the left at my altitude. From RIPON onward, though, everyone was pretty much in line, other than most tended to be over the highway and not the railroad track. I was cleared to land on the green dot on 27, and that's what I did--and it's always good to get there, safe and sound!

Cary

[Mayhemxpc]

The Warbird approach ends at 18. If the runways are closed (for whatever reason) you can't use it. You can go to Ripon or do some other approved approach (like the Prison).

Or 36.

[FlyingRon]

Yes 18/36, but not 9-27 (the other runways are closed unconditionally during the show).

[Paul Chandler]

Going back to the original comment regarding the flag men on 09/27 - a lot of them seemed to be CAP cadets who had no idea what type of aircraft they were marshalling and / or where the areas they needed to be directed to were. I lost count of the number of aircraft who were sent to North 40 parking only to be turned around by someone further up the line (saw 1 aircraft go past me 4 times) The positions the flag men took up were also poor in that pilots in taildraggers particularly would have difficulty seeing them. The actual signals used were also poor in that the bats were not moved much again making it difficult to see them. I actually heard one person starting to shout at an aircraft to keep moving - not much chance of the pilot hearing that. Having said that I did see several aircraft ignore the flag men completely including a RV who proceeded to taxi through the cones marking the drainage cover. Also saw a Staggerwing taxi on the outside despite being directed onto the inside path.

[FlyingRon]

The real fun ones are the ones that the guys up North think go South and we down South know they don't belong here and send them North. This is compounded if they are holding a sign for the wrong area. Those get the "Full Gilligan" (A three hour tour, A three hour tour).

[CHICAGORANDY]

Ron, you win today's prize for funniest line on the Forum..'The Full Gilligan".....lol

[greentips]

I think the issue with ground handlers is real, and not just limited to the North. We parked VAC, followed a Cessna in, where it was met with grounds crew who stood on the taxiway clearly visible and with clear, crisp, AIM like ground signals, standing aside the aircraft to the left of the pilot. We were to park in the next row, and there was someone standing way off to the side, not clearly visible, didn't really signal us, and we went on by.

We were turned back to where they wanted us a ways down, and this time the groundsman was out a little further, but after directing us down the row, stood directly in front of the nose cone, too close to the bird puree-er on the front for my comfort, and gave very subtle indications on how he wanted me to taxi, with his arms barely rising above his waist. At times I couldn't see him at all, and he was unhappy when I turned the plane to see him, got yelled at, shrugged and pretended to be the dufus I am. But every time he disappeared from view, I just stopped until I could see him again. He did get the idea, and I learned to read his body language, and we made it in just fine, but I do think that the grounds crew should be better educated on how to marshal aircraft in.

An idea I had was to give everyone short versions of the orange fibreglass poles my wife uses to flag the driveway edge for snowplowing. They're very cheap, at least compared with official wands, and would reinforce the idea that they really need to be a bit more compulsive about marshaling signals. It's not a unique problem to OSH, because I've seen very sloppy marshaling at FBOs, large and small around the country.

The AIM has a nice set of figures that pretty much explain all that needs to be done (4.23.25). Hand out those pictures to everyone, spend a minute with them each practicing, and hopefully it would help standardize things. The pictures even tell the marshal where to stand w.r.t the cockpit. Problem solved. Then I wouldn't have to guess whether the signals I was given were "Pull Chocks" or "Slow Down" when what was really meant was "turn a bit left" and "turn a bit right" and "come on forward." I don't like guessing, I guess in close quarters. This was on Tuesday noon. Maybe everyone was a bit tired by then. But a good time was had by all, and we did get safely parked for the rest of the week.

[FlyingRon]

WHat can I say. Our training book tells people to maintain eye contact with the pilot. One problem is that a lot of pilots head towards the flagger no matter what signals we do. I usually just make a "pull in here" motion where I want their nose gear to be. I back way up and then when they get to the right point give them the kill sign. Unless it is a tail dragger that I can't see the pilot when I stand in front, I do stand in front as people just don't understand it otherwise. Come towards me they get.


But the days are long and perhaps the flagger was tired.

[krw920]

But the days are long and perhaps the flagger was tired.

And was a volunteer, not a paid professional.

[FlyingRon]

https://www.facebook.com/aviationtouches/videos/1930575907223555/

[Mayhemxpc]

Ron, that is a great picture. Where did you find it?

Parking in Warbirds was a delight this year. Clear, by the book signals with no doubt who thought he was marshaling me. That said...and take note fellow aviators...when my prop stopped the lineman came up to me and said that I get the prize for being the first pilot that day to follow his instructions precisely. (It IS a team sport.) When I got out and looked at the plane, I was impressed at the accuracy of parking. Certainly I could NOT have done that by myself.

This year, I avoided any tours by landing on 27 and someone from WB came out on a scooter and picked me up after I turned off the runway (before any of the other marshalers could get to me.) last year -- as I mentioned last year -- I landed 36 and got to the end where a marshaller came up to me and said he had "no idea what to do with me" (How to get me to WB.)

I had one marshaller event on departure. IFR departure, so Runway 27. Ground control was giving me progressive taxi instructions. When he told me to turn left on Rwy 31, the marshalers were insistent that I go straight...to where I don't know. I think to 18, the VFR runway. Ground control won, of course.

It is a tough job. As I wrote above, remember it is a team sport.

[PaulDow]

Ron, that is a great picture. Where did you find it?
That's not a picture. It's a video.

(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj2FMkyqHDk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj2FMkyqHDk

[FlyingRon]

You can just click on the "picture" and it starts to play.

[Mayhemxpc]

I was looking at this on my iPad. There was no arrow on the picture (nothing to indicate it was a video) until I clicked it. Then click again and it runs. Great! I have been to some FBO's where I think they must use this as a training film for how to marshal aircraft.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Looks the same (no arrow) on my Desktop PC. You're not alone in thinking it was just a comic picture.

[FlyingRon]

Just another VBulletin failure. I used the "MOVIE" button on the webforum to insert it.