Do the Blue Angels have a "Hard Deck" (minimum altitude) During public performances?

[Wrongway Feldman]

Do the Blue Angels have a "Hard Deck" (minimum altitude) During public performances?
If they do, does this apply to all the maneuvers they perform?
Or does the "Hard Deck" change depending on the maneuvers they perform?

The reason I ask is, when the Thunderbirds performed in Oshkosh they seemed to be pretty far up in the sky. (Hard to see)
The Thursday practices or site orientation seemed a lot more intense and low flying.
I have good video of a couple Thunderbirds chasing each other on the flight line, very low, fast and loud.
They were buzzing around like fire fly's.

Blue Angels Maneuvers Manual (https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/military/media/BlueAngels_Maneuvers_Manual.pdf)

Blue Angels Support Manual (https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/military/media/blue_angels_support_manual.pdf)

[martymayes]

I would say yes because I heard from a reliable source - below the hard deck doesn't count.

[Wrongway Feldman]

What is the hard deck altitude?

[FlyingRon]

An altitude that they are not allowed to go below during performance.

[Bill Greenwood]

At one time it was the rule or if not an actual FAA regulation, that one should not fly over the crowd as part of an airshow. Stay on the other side of the show line. Then I think procedures changed, but still one should not fly over the crowd below 1000 feet and that is part of an FAR.
I have seen military jet teams fly over the crowd often, and looks like they are much lower than 1000 ft. The public or us on EAA fourm dont know what their briefing was or what limits they are supposed to operate to. And I doubt if the FAA has any authority over them, no matter where they fly or what altitude or speed, unlike civilian planes.
When the Italian militry jet team came to Osh they were not allowed to fly over the crowd. That same year in Euriope they did do this and had a mid air collusion and the planes fell into the crowd, killing many people.

[Bill Greenwood]

Sorry for my spelling, that word is supposed to be collision, not collusion, It was a slip of the brain

Anyway the idea of not flying over the crowd is to of course protect them in the event of an accident, collision or engine failure. If you fly over, but at 1000 ft minimum then you have, in theory a good chance of clearing the crowd if engine faliure occurs, but that is not iron clad as debris could fall off a plane. Rare but possible.
The standard crowd line or show line for civilian planes doing passes is 500 ft if you are not doing acrobatic and are not high speed, and 1000 ft if you are doing acro on that pass. Im not sure, but I think high speed passes like jets above 300knots are supposed to be on the 1500 ft line.
Again I doubt it the FAA has any regs over U S military teams.

[Wrongway Feldman]

Sorry for my spelling, that word is supposed to be collision, not collusion, It was a slip of the brain with all the news these days about Russia collusion with Republicans.
As for as we know, neither Putin or any of the Trumps had anything to do with the Italian team or U S jet acts.
Anyway the idea of not flying over the crowd is to of course protect them in the event of an accident, collision or engine failure. If you fly over, but at 1000 ft minimum then you have, in theory a good chance of clearing the crowd if engine faliure occurs, but that is not iron clad as debris could fall off a plane. Rare but possible.
Subliminal messages are start'n to creep in.

Thanks for the 1000ft minimum, but me thinks that applies to single jets.
When they are flying in multiple jet formations, I think that 1000ft minimum altitude rises to 5000 -10,000ft
Cloud cover or blue sky has to be a factor in how they fly and what is the minimum altitude in the multiple jet formations.

[Bill Greenwood]

When I wrote about 500 ft or 1000ft from the crowd lline, I am talking about a horizontal distance, when doing passes, I m not saying that is the verticle floor.

[Bill Greenwood]

I have tried to edit the post above to correct the spelling from collusion to collision and the edit button is not working. I was facing the sun when I wrote it and my typing is not so good anyway. And I tried to delete all the reference to colliusion, keeping it just about the jet teams, but cant get that to work either.
And I got interupeted in mid post on this.
Sorry for the muddy waters. trying to be clear.

[Bill Greenwood]

When I wrote about 500 ft or 1000ft from the crowd lline, I am talking about a horizontal distance, when doing passes, I m not saying that is the verticle floor.

and I tried to go back to the post above, correct the spelling and delete any reference to collusion, as I dont want it to be taken the wrong way and I want to stick to the topic about the jet teams and I cant get the edit button to work to allow be to delete the above.
When I wrote it I was looking into the sun and got interuprted in mid post also, never got to edit a final verson of the post.

[martymayes]

What is the hard deck altitude?

according to Viper it was 10,000 ft for the first hop.

[martymayes]

When the Italian militry jet team came to Osh they were not allowed to fly over the crowd. That same year in Euriope they did do this and had a mid air collusion and the planes fell into the crowd, killing many people.

I watched the Freece Tricolori at their first appearance at Oshkosh in 1984 and immediately recognized what they were doing carried an unacceptable level of danger as a malfunction could end with a plane in a crowd of people. They did the same exact routine in Ramstein in 1988 and the unthinkable happened; not because of overlying the crowd but flying toward the crowd at a high rate of speed - momentum carried the debris into the crowd. I was not surprised at all after witnessing what they had done at OSH. What happened at Ramstein could have easily happened at Oshkosh had the planes collided during the same maneuver. I won't be a spectator at airshows like that.

[Bill Greenwood]

Marty, you may be right that the accident in Europe was when two Italian jets hit while flying toward the crowd. But it seems that they might have gone over the crowd at the end of the pass if the had not hit. As I remember it when they were at Oskosh they did not do that part the same way. Its been a long time but I recall airboss or someone talking about it then. Sad for all involved

[RhinoIA]

During the "sneak pass", #5 will be at around 50 feet AGL down the show line. Hope that answers the question. :cool:

[John Cox]

It is not the manuevers, it's the weather minimums, high show - all stops removed; Mid show - selected climbing manuevers changed or deleted; low show - many deletions. The High show starts with a Six Ship "Smoke ON at three after the hour and final landing at 50 minutes after. Freq changes daily. Nothing is fine thanks tapping into Bosses hot freq and hearing the breaks. At SFO they broke the FAA hard Deck of 100 and scorched boats at 50AGL. Great pictures

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