Hand propping questions

[DaleB]

I'm curious about a couple of things regarding planes with no starter or electrical system. I'm in the early stages of building a biplane and am starting to ponder the engine choices. I want to build simple and light, but not limit where (aside from transponder requirements) and how I can fly. In other words... I want to be able to fly somewhere, land, shut down, then fly back home without needing someone else to help out. I don't want to be that guy you read about whose plane wanders off and impacts something, but I also don't want to have to have a ground crew to fly. So - the following questions are specifically related to a biplane with a small Continental up front.

I get the hand prop process. How, though, would one handle a hand-propped tail dragger solo, especially when away from the home field? I've seen and read about a tail hook with a cockpit release -- but what would you hook it to? I imagine using wheel chocks would be an option, but if flying alone pulling the chocks from the cockpit would seem to be a challenge with a wing in the way. I need to figure out how it's done both on pavement and on grass.

Educate me, guys.

[rwanttaja]

When you fly to another airport, just pick out a standard tiedown spot to park. When you're ready to go, take one of the tiedown ropes, tie a loop in it, and put that in your tail hook.

Carry a hank of rope and a knife in your airplane. If you end up stopping somewhere away from existing tiedown ropes, cut off a piece of your own rope and tie it to a fence post, etc. Keep in mind, too, that the ropes left at the tiedowns may not be of the best quality, and you might have to sacrifice a bit of your own rope instead. I've been places where just a moderate tug on the tiedown rope will shatter it.

If you're at a fly-in or other activity, there's often someone who can flip the prop for you. Otherwise, brief someone, put them in the cockpit, and have them hold the brakes while YOU start the airplane. You can still take charge of manipulating the throttle and working the switches, you just need a meat parking brake.

I flew N500F, the prototype Fly Baby, for seven years. Hand propping all the way. Was only twice that I had to prop it with no one in the cockpit and the not tail tied down. The first happened after a landing at a remote grass strip with no one around. The second was when the engine quietly quit on short final on a 15-degree day.

Finally, remember that the rules excluding the need for transponders and ADSB refer to an engine-driven electrical system. It doesn't preclude having a starter and battery. Install both, include an external power plug, and top off the battery occasionally. I flew my current Fly Baby for a year with a dead generator.

Tail hook information:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/tailhook.html

Ron Wanttaja

[Mike M]

Finally, remember that the rules excluding the need for transponders and ADSB refer to an engine-driven electrical system. It doesn't preclude having a starter and battery. Install both, include an external power plug, and top off the battery occasionally.

That's good advice.

Buddyamine had a VariEze with no generator, put a battery in the nose and a solar panel inside the canopy over the rear seater's head.

Be experimental :)

[DaleB]

Oh, I know the transponder & ADS-B requirements. I was thinking about a starter and small battery, with a charging port. Maybe even a little wind generator, it's mot like an extra couple pounds of drag will make much of a difference. I'm told this airplane has the glide ratio of a Steinway. But a Continental starter is either really heavy or really expensive. I'm absolutely not set on hand-propping; I'd much, much rather hit the button and go. I just want to have enough information to make an informed decision, in case (for example) I run across a killer deal on a C-85-8 or something.

I don't plan to do a lot of cross country flying, although if I finish it I will fly it to Oshkosh. But, there are a lot of places I'd like to be able to go, land, have lunch or whatever, fly home. I know people have done it for decades without batteries and starters, just trying to find out how. :)

[Anymouse]

Finally, remember that the rules excluding the need for transponders and ADSB refer to an engine-driven electrical system. It doesn't preclude having a starter and battery. Install both, include an external power plug, and top off the battery occasionally. I flew my current Fly Baby for a year with a dead generator.


Do you know if there's an option out there for doing this with a T-Craft(65 HP)? The Armstrong starter I'm using now gets worn out easily in cold weather.

[martymayes]

Do you know if there's an option out there for doing this with a T-Craft(65 HP)? The Armstrong starter I'm using now gets worn out easily in cold weather.

A -8 engine doesn't have any kind of provision for a starter so you'd have to adapt your own starter and get it approved.

[lathropdad]

I flew a J3 Cub for several years. I hand propped that plane by standing in front of the right side wheel. I could reach in and control the mags and throttle. I propped the engine from the back side of the prop with a foot blocking the wheel. I never was comfortable doing it this way but it worked fine.

[martymayes]

How, though, would one handle a hand-propped tail dragger solo, especially when away from the home field? I've seen and read about a tail hook with a cockpit release -- but what would you hook it to?

I didn't have a tail hook that could be released from the cockpit so I would untie the tail with the engine at idle and wheels chocked then reel the chocks in by their tether while standing in the door opening right before entering the cockpit. While I wasn't physically inside the cockpit, I could readily access the controls if needed. Never had the plane pull a "Christine" and advance the throttle by itself when I wasn't looking.

The only way I would do that today is if there was absolutely no way to install a starter. If at all possible to install a starter - one of those lightweight permanent magnet jobs would be the ticket. A battery with no charging system is good for several starts so I can't imagine that ever being an issue. Even on an overnight somewhere, as long as a 110v receptacle is available could just plug in a portable charger like those used for charging computer batteries to top off the battery.

[DaleB]

A -8 engine doesn't have any kind of provision for a starter so you'd have to adapt your own starter and get it approved.
Or there's this: https://www.facebook.com/SafestartStarterSystems/

Although why anyone would use Facebook for any sort of business venture is beyond my comprehension. If you don't have a Facebook account (I do not and will not) you can only see half the flippin' page. </rant>

[rwanttaja]

Oh, I know the transponder & ADS-B requirements. I was thinking about a starter and small battery, with a charging port. Maybe even a little wind generator, it's mot like an extra couple pounds of drag will make much of a difference. I'm told this airplane has the glide ratio of a Steinway. But a Continental starter is either really heavy or really expensive. I'm absolutely not set on hand-propping; I'd much, much rather hit the button and go. I just want to have enough information to make an informed decision, in case (for example) I run across a killer deal on a C-85-8 or something.
Well...depending on what you're flying the stock Continental starter isn't that bad. 25-30 pounds, something like that. Keep in mind that if your engine has a pull-type starter, the aftermarket jobs won't work out of the box. You have to cut off a pilot shaft in the Continental accessory case.

If you don't have the pilot shaft, you can install the battery (need it for the radio, anyway), wiring, and switch, and just put a blank plate over the starter hole. Then, if you ever get tired of hand-propping, you can just pop the starter in.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Do you know if there's an option out there for doing this with a T-Craft(65 HP)? The Armstrong starter I'm using now gets worn out easily in cold weather.
Well, there's the Hamp starter. Not cheap, but it is STC'd.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#More_on_the_Hamp_Starter_for_A65s

Edit: I see this is the "Safestart" system previously mentioned. For those without Facebook, contact information is:

7350 N Osborn Rd
Elwell, Michigan, MI 48832
(989) 463-1762

Cost is about $2000, and for an additional $500, they'll install it for you.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

I few a J3 without a starter for years. Key points. it would start on first pull cold and 2nd pull warm with wood prop, and it idled so slowly so would not creep even with chocks pulled. I would never start it without chocks, ( use big rocks if you have to) and almost always the tail tied down also.
So with chocks and one tie down and throttle just cracked open, prop start it. Then close the throttle all the way, walk around the rear to pull the left main chock, then untie the tail, then from behind the wing pull or kick out the right main chock. At idle the plane wont move and you are right by the cockpit ready to climb in, holding on to the door or wing strut, can even reach into switch off ingnitiion if needed. I never did, but you might even try starting just on the prime with fuel shut off.
If you can, I d install a starter, for the few times when it might be hard to start.

[martymayes]

Or there's this: https://www.facebook.com/SafestartStarterSystems/

He is only ~100 miles from me. I'll stop in and visit next time I am up that way.

[Bob Dingley]

I learned to fly in a J-3 Cub when I was teenager. Eventually bought a 7AC Champ and a Luscombe 8A among other things. I heard about hand propping accidents frequently, so I developed MY procedure: First, turn on the fuel valve to fill the carb bowl. Then turn it off. It now only has 30 seconds of fuel in it. Enough time to get to the cockpit after it starts. I always carried 15' to 20' of good rope. Enough to reach from the seat belt (fastened) and looped around a tie down, tree or post. I could enter the cockpit after start, buckle up and retrieve my rope while seated.
A glider tow hitch would be a nice touch, tho.
Bob (Be careful)

[1600vw]

Use one of these. It bolts to the tail wheel spring. Simple to hook up and install. I am surprised Ron did not mention this. If he did already and I missed it. sorry for the duplicate post.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/tailhook.html

[1600vw]

Here is one you can purchase if you don't want to have one made or don't want to make one.

http://www.wingsunlimitedtowhooks.com/bolt-on.html

[jam0552@msn.com]

My 1940 Funk has Cleveland disc brakes and a Grove parking brake valve. I set the brakes before hand propping it. Fortunately there's enough weight on the tailwheel to keep it from nosing over. I just crack the throttle ever so slightly above idle. I follow a checklist religiously and once the engine is running I get in and release the parking brake valve and taxi away. I've been following this procedure for 67 hours, no mishaps.
joel marketello

[1600vw]

My 1940 Funk has Cleveland disc brakes and a Grove parking brake valve. I set the brakes before hand propping it. Fortunately there's enough weight on the tailwheel to keep it from nosing over. I just crack the throttle ever so slightly above idle. I follow a checklist religiously and once the engine is running I get in and release the parking brake valve and taxi away. I've been following this procedure for 67 hours, no mishaps.
joel marketello

Could you please post a link to this parking brake valve. Jerry told me to purchase one and install it on the Cygnet.

Some good advice here. I like the one about turning on the fuel then shutting it off. Very good advice when away and by yourself. Even if you tie her down. Never too safe in my opinion. I have also had a nose over after start up. Seeing how I start my vw from behind, I had to lay on the wing and reach inside and pull the throttle out. Now I take the seat belt and hold the stick in the back position. I also lean the mixture so the engine can not run much off an idle not without dying.

Tony

[Anymouse]

Well, there's the Hamp starter. Not cheap, but it is STC'd.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#More_on_the_Hamp_Starter_for_A65s

Edit: I see this is the "Safestart" system previously mentioned. For those without Facebook, contact information is:

7350 N Osborn Rd
Elwell, Michigan, MI 48832
(989) 463-1762

Cost is about $2000, and for an additional $500, they'll install it for you.

Ron Wanttaja

Might be worth it!


EDIT: Or not! That installation looks UGLY!!!!

[Dana]

At my home base, I used a pair of heavy duty chocks (the plane will not climb over them even at full throttle) on a long cord. I chock the plane, tie the stick back with the seat belt or a bungee, and start the engine. Once it's running smoothly, I reduce the throttle to idle, none of my planes would roll at idle even on pavement, then I walk to the front of the wing, gently pull the chocks out and toss them in the hangar, get in the plane, and go. I also have a set of much lighter traveling chocks, also on a cord.

There's also this... I made a similar setup for my Fisher and kept it in my "away" bag. It works with anything you can loop it around and you don't have to cut it or leave it behind:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibkAkm_gid8

[Bill Berson]

I saw a Cub go round and round about three times with the pilot holding the right wing strut. Just missed the gas pumps each time. He finally dove into the cockpit and cut the throttle. I figured he may have flooded it and set full throttle to clear it.
Maybe the p lead was broke.

[cwilliamrose]

In the deep dark past, before light weight starters and batteries existed, I was flying airplanes without starters a lot on long X-country flights. These were Pitts airplanes with a lot of power for the weight so they would be more than happy to move under idle power. I could almost always find someone to help but it was rare to find anyone I felt good enough about to prop the airplane for me. And there were times when I was completely on my own. If the airplane was fuel injected it was a PITA to start a hot or warm engine with the throttle closed. If the airplane had a PS5-C pressure carb it was fairly easy since the engine would start at idle hot or cold.

Generally it went like this;

Tie the tail down to a good strong tie down and find one with decent rope.

Put two small stones in front of the tires to serve as chocks when the airplane is running at idle power. I did not use regular chocks, it's too dangerous to pull the chocks when the engine is running given how close the tires, prop and lower wing leading edge are to each other.

Set it up for the start.

If you have help and the throttle needs to be pulled back when it starts the helper stands outside the cockpit ready to pull it to idle. If the helper is fairly sharp you can also show him/her the mag switch to kill the engine (just in case).

You prop the airplane. You make any changes to the set up in the cockpit during the starting process, not the helper.

Once the airplane is running at idle you can untie the tail. This is easy if you have help because you can get in the cockpit and have the helper untie the tail. Not a big deal solo, just make sure the airplane will stay put with the rope loose before you commit to completely untying it

Once you're strapped in you simply taxi over the small stone chocks and you're on your way.


I never put anyone in the cockpit because you can easily bump the throttle getting out. And the helper could damage the airplane getting in or out in what might be a fairly stressful situation for them. There were just too many negative possibilities.

I did as I describe above dozens of times without any problems of the safety sort. The problems I encountered were mainly due to hot FI engines not wanting to cooperate with my attempts to start them at low throttle settings. If you're going to do this you have to be ready to accept that the FI engine may not start for you until it cools off. You can't be on a schedule.

[tnathan]

That cable system looks pretty snazzy as long as it doesn't snag on something. Neat idea. Thanks for sharing.


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[tnathan]

Before I married my wife and she was flying by herself, she did the secure via chock/tie downs, handprop, and the. just walk around and remove. I think the cub would stay put once pulled back to idle. Other options I have heard are propping from behind which is how the floatplane guys do it standing on the pontoon. I have also heard folks say they prime the engine and then shut the fuel off so she will run out of fuel if something goes wrong and they can't get back inside. Not sure about this one. Lastly, we went with the lightweight skytec starter gel battery. We can just jump in, press a button and go. If I have a spare person and in the mood I can still handprop when I want. Gives us options and takes away an impediment when one us wants to fly and no one is around.


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[Frank Giger]

While folks have been successfully hand propping aircraft since, well, there have been aircraft, with today's lightweight options (including total loss battery systems, which are just fine) I can't see a solid reason to rely on it solely.

Starters answer more questions than they offer, in my humble opinion.

[DaleB]

The only reason I would have would be if I got a killer deal on, say, a nice C-85-8F or C-90-8F. If the engine I end up with can have a starter, it most likely will. I would certainly not go without one, barring some compelling circumstance.

[Gr8laker2T1A]

Install hydraulic brakes and plumb in a parking brake. They are sold at Wag and ACS. Use the parking brake and you can forget about all those ideas about tail tie downs and rope releases. I did that with my Champ and have been extremely happy with it for well over 100 hours.

[Bill Berson]

I would not shut off the fuel. Too many takeoff crashes from forgetting to turn the fuel on.
How long does it take to deplete the carburetor bowl and perhaps some of the gascolator?

[cluttonfred]

Another potential safety feature for hand propping would be to install a second set of magneto switches outside the cockpit as was done on DH Tiger Moths and I am sure many other planes of the era. That way the person winging the prop knows for sure when the magnetos are on or off, and it's easier to stop a runaway plane if that does happen.

6338

[champ driver]

I would not shut off the fuel. Too many takeoff crashes from forgetting to turn the fuel on.
How long does it take to deplete the carburetor bowl and perhaps some of the gascolator?

On my Champ with an A-65, it takes less than a minute for it to die, more than enough time to make it from the front and to climb in. You would never have enough time to taxi and TO from any normal airport setting. I always shut mine off for starting, it would be hard to miss it while doing any preflight checks.

[Joda]

I would not shut off the fuel. Too many takeoff crashes from forgetting to turn the fuel on.
How long does it take to deplete the carburetor bowl and perhaps some of the gascolator?

On a typical Cub or Champ-type fuel system, you'll never make it through the run-up, let alone get anywhere near takeoff, before the engine quits with the fuel shut off. If you forget to turn the fuel back on, it will likely quit before you even get buckled in, and for sure won't make it through advancing the throttle for taxi. This method works very well when propping an airplane alone. Enough gas to keep it running for you to climb in, but not enough to go anywhere.

[Bob Dingley]

I would not shut off the fuel. Too many takeoff crashes from forgetting to turn the fuel on.
How long does it take to deplete the carburetor bowl and perhaps some of the gascolator?
My experience with several A-65's is less than 60 seconds.

[Bill Berson]

But 60 seconds of out of control airplane. What's the point?
Might only fly a mile with no pilot or hit a parked Learjet or a child.
An automatic magneto shut off is quicker.
I am certain the guy I watched go round and round could not have held on 60 seconds.

[rwanttaja]

But 60 seconds of out of control airplane. What's the point?
Might only fly a mile.
An automatic magneto shut off is quicker.
I am certain the guy I watched go round and round could not have held on 60 seconds.
I think the reference to how long the engine will run goes back to the worries that one might take off with the fuel turned off. Not that it reduces the threat of an out-of-control aircraft.

Auto mag shutoff is a neat idea, until it breaks and shuts down the mags when you DON'T want. So you want the normal operating mode having it completely out of the circuit.

Ron Wanttaja

[Joda]

But 60 seconds of out of control airplane. What's the point?


It certainly wouldn't run for 60 seconds at wide open throttle. 60 seconds would be at idle, and if it's at idle, it's not going to get away from anyone. If it's at WOT when started with the fuel off, it's certainly going to go somewhere (if not tied down) but it's not going to go very darned far with the fuel shut off.

[Bill Berson]

It certainly wouldn't run for 60 seconds at wide open throttle. 60 seconds would be at idle, and if it's at idle, it's not going to get away from anyone. If it's at WOT when started with the fuel off, it's certainly going to go somewhere (if not tied down) but it's not going to go very darned far with the fuel shut off.
I was just remembering that my instructor told me never change the fuel selector during runup for various reasons.
If your normal habit is changing the fuel selector before takeoff, someday you might select the empty tank or off accidentally. If empty tank is selected might be enough fuel to run level but quit during takeoff climb angle. Some airplanes with fuel pumps might run longer with switch off. I don't know, never tried it.
I forgot the various reasons he stated, slug of water from switching tanks or something.
I never turn my fuel to off between flights. Just like my car.

I have read takeoff accident reports where the fuel selector was off. How does it happen?

[Bob Dingley]

I was just remembering that my instructor told me never change the fuel selector during runup for various reasons.


I have read takeoff accident reports where the fuel selector was off. How does it happen?
Couple of years after I passed my PVT p.l. check ride in the Cub, I was in military flight school flying behind a PW R-1340. Due to summer high DA, the school decided to only fill one tank. After a couple of fuel starvation incidents, they decided to top off one tank and put 100 lbs in the other. The check lists were changed to start & run up on the low tank, then switch to the full tank for take off. Problems went away.

Fuel selector in off? Very easy to do in Pipers. (22's) The selector goes "Off-Left-Off-Right". So on around the circle. No "Both". You really need to LOOK when you switch.

The fuel valve in a Cub, Champ, Luscombe, etc are simple on-off. Easy to check by feel.

[Frank Giger]

I can verify that a Champ with a full fuel bowl but the selector to off will only go about forty feet in a taxi.

A "friend" told me so. ;)

[Bob Dingley]

[QUOTE=Frank Giger;


A "friend" told me so. ;)[/QUOTE]
Right on Frank. A friend also told me that when the valve is OFF, the bowl is not being emptied. It actually has enough to taxi a mile. (maybe) The weak vacuum from the venturi can only get a "sip" of the bowl contents. Just enough to get to the cockpit and take over.
Bob

[Cary]

Just some thoughts to throw into the discussion.

First, if hand-propping is the only thing available, LEARN HOW TO DO IT RIGHT! Just because you saw how to do it on YouTube doesn't mean that you can do it yourself.

Second, if there is any way to start the engine other than hand-propping, use it. Even for experienced hand-proppers, it's a dangerous task. All you have to do is slip a little, or have the airplane jump the chocks or come untied, or whatever.

Third, don't be surprised if any engine can run much longer with the fuel selector off than what you've seen in this thread. Here's my own example: we were at Concord Airpark (2G1) in our Skylane (this was about 41 years ago). The airplane was parked on a slant, so I'd left the fuel selector off for several days to keep the fuel from flowing from one tank to the other and out the vent. We had loaded up, I had done the preflight (including turning the fuel selector on), and went into the office to obtain my clearance from Cleveland Center. I was given a void time of only 10 minutes, which should have been enough. But when I came out of the office, Wife 1 had unloaded the kids and dog again "for one last potty stop". I saw the fuel flowing out the vent, so I reached in and turned the selector off again and told everyone to hurry up. By the time we reloaded everyone, the void time was close to running out, so I was in a hurry--big mistake. I fired up, and we taxied the length of the runway (2100') to the run-up area, did the engine run-up, and took the runway for take off. I firewalled it, and we moved forward probably 50-100' before the engine suddenly died. I immediately realized that I had failed to turn the selector back on, but there wasn't sufficient runway after we rolled while I turned it back on, so we back taxied before trying again. How long did that take? Assume we taxied at 15 mph .4 miles, that's about 1 1/2 minutes. Add another half minute for the engine run-up. That's at least 2 minutes, in an engine that at idle drinks a lot more than the much smaller engines that have been discussed. In 2 minutes, a lot of havoc can occur.

FWIW, my view is that if hand-propping must be done, both the person swinging the prop and the person at the controls must be qualified, and they must go over the "signals" before anything is done. I don't care if the signals are non-standard, just so both know what each other means. If it has to be done alone, then both chocking and tying down is essential. Yeah, people do it without one or the other or sometimes both all the time, but that doesn't make it wise, or right, or safe.

Bottom line: props are dangerous, like loaded guns. Any time a prop is moved, it must be respected as something that might suddenly move more on its own. If it's going to be used to start the airplane, then every precaution must be taken, for the sake of the person swinging the prop and people and property nearby.

Cary

[1600vw]

Just some thoughts to throw into the discussion.

First, if hand-propping is the only thing available, LEARN HOW TO DO IT RIGHT! Just because you saw how to do it on YouTube doesn't mean that you can do it yourself.

Second, if there is any way to start the engine other than hand-propping, use it. Even for experienced hand-proppers, it's a dangerous task. All you have to do is slip a little, or have the airplane jump the chocks or come untied, or whatever.

Third, don't be surprised if any engine can run much longer with the fuel selector off than what you've seen in this thread. Here's my own example: we were at Concord Airpark (2G1) in our Skylane (this was about 41 years ago). The airplane was parked on a slant, so I'd left the fuel selector off for several days to keep the fuel from flowing from one tank to the other and out the vent. We had loaded up, I had done the preflight (including turning the fuel selector on), and went into the office to obtain my clearance from Cleveland Center. I was given a void time of only 10 minutes, which should have been enough. But when I came out of the office, Wife 1 had unloaded the kids and dog again "for one last potty stop". I saw the fuel flowing out the vent, so I reached in and turned the selector off again and told everyone to hurry up. By the time we reloaded everyone, the void time was close to running out, so I was in a hurry--big mistake. I fired up, and we taxied the length of the runway (2100') to the run-up area, did the engine run-up, and took the runway for take off. I firewalled it, and we moved forward probably 50-100' before the engine suddenly died. I immediately realized that I had failed to turn the selector back on, but there wasn't sufficient runway after we rolled while I turned it back on, so we back taxied before trying again. How long did that take? Assume we taxied at 15 mph .4 miles, that's about 1 1/2 minutes. Add another half minute for the engine run-up. That's at least 2 minutes, in an engine that at idle drinks a lot more than the much smaller engines that have been discussed. In 2 minutes, a lot of havoc can occur.

FWIW, my view is that if hand-propping must be done, both the person swinging the prop and the person at the controls must be qualified, and they must go over the "signals" before anything is done. I don't care if the signals are non-standard, just so both know what each other means. If it has to be done alone, then both chocking and tying down is essential. Yeah, people do it without one or the other or sometimes both all the time, but that doesn't make it wise, or right, or safe.

Bottom line: props are dangerous, like loaded guns. Any time a prop is moved, it must be respected as something that might suddenly move more on its own. If it's going to be used to start the airplane, then every precaution must be taken, for the sake of the person swinging the prop and people and property nearby.

Cary

So what do you recommend..Hiring the dude that made the Youtube Video to show you in person how to do what he just showed on a youtube video? I myself am glad the Wright Brothers did not have this view. We would have never gotten into aviation. Who could they call to get this training or endorsement?

I have been hand propping for 6 years. No one taught me but youtube and reading on the subject. I hand propped 5 airplanes yesterday. But then again I taught my self most things I do today.

Tony

[jkoper]

I fly a Piper Vagabond. The system that I have is to tie the tail, and I have a set of chocks with para-cord attached to them that is long enough that I can tie it to my wing strut. With the mags off and throttle CLOSED I flip her through 4-5 blades to prime if cold, then left mag on, throttle still closed and it will catch on the 1st or 2nd blade. Then check oil pressure and mags to both (still at idle). If an engine will not start and run with the throttle all the way closed I do not need to fly behind it until it will. Now I can untie the tail climb in, hold the brakes reach over untie the cord and pull the chocks loose and throw them in the baggage area and I am ready to go. This setup won't work for every airplane but it works great for the Vagabond.


Jim

[Cary]

So what do you recommend..Hiring the dude that made the Youtube Video to show you in person how to do what he just showed on a youtube video? I myself am glad the Wright Brothers did not have this view. We would have never gotten into aviation. Who could they call to get this training or endorsement?

I have been hand propping for 6 years. No one taught me but youtube and reading on the subject. I hand propped 5 airplanes yesterday. But then again I taught my self most things I do today.

Tony

You've been lucky. Many have been seriously injured or worse, attempting to do it on their own without anyone showing them directly. The EAA does a pretty good job of training at OSH each year. I strongly recommend that anyone who anticipates hand-propping attend the demonstration, and learn how to do it right.

Incidentally, I've watched "experienced" people do it wrong--and someday, they'll get hurt. I don't know if you're doing it right or wrong, but if you're doing it wrong, I hope that you're not among those who will be hurt.

Cary

[1600vw]

You've been lucky. Many have been seriously injured or worse, attempting to do it on their own without anyone showing them directly. The EAA does a pretty good job of training at OSH each year. I strongly recommend that anyone who anticipates hand-propping attend the demonstration, and learn how to do it right.

Incidentally, I've watched "experienced" people do it wrong--and someday, they'll get hurt. I don't know if you're doing it right or wrong, but if you're doing it wrong, I hope that you're not among those who will be hurt.

Cary

Every time I want to fly I must hand prop. Some believe the only way to learn something is to have ones hand held, as whatever it is you are learning is learned. They will then say because no one held your hand you have no idea what you are doing. Even trained people get hurt. They are called accidents. If this was not the case we would not have folks who have had training crash or have accidents. Accidents can happen to anyone.

But I do know of those who taught themselves how to do, aerobatics, how to fly a tail wheel, ect...They then went out and received their endorsement after they taught themselves how to do it. Many have done this. Some can and some can't. It's those who can't and those who want their palms greased that will tell everyone..you need your hand held. Not everyone needs this type of training to learn something and learn it correctly. Again just because no formal training does not mean its being done wrong. It just means they are book learners and don't need a picture drawn or blue prints made up to show how one does it.

It's also how the Wright Brothers did it. Now do I believe we are like the Wright Brothers. No for today we have those that can help if you find you do indeed need your hand held as you learn. I have needed this type of training I call hands on for many things. Then for many other things, no I did not need this type of training.


Tony

[1600vw]

This thread reminds me of the man who lived next door to me. They had four children. We lived by a river, we were river rats as they say. This man spent a lot of time on the river in a little John boat. He took all his kids out one day, tossed them over into the river and said swim or sink.
I could not swim if my life depended on it. I needed hands on training and a lot of it. But it is how I learned. My friends, they had no one show them. It was swim or sink. At ages 4-10 imagine being thrown into a river and told to swim or sink, but many learned this way back in the day. How I learned to drive a car. The keys were thrown at me at age 11 and I was told to drive. I drove..lol....

Tony

[DaleB]

Well... hardly the best method of learning to swim or drive, for sure. No better than pointing someone at an airplane and saying, "Here, go start that thing, willya? Just flip the prop a time or two and try not to lose an arm". I learned to ride a motorcycle by buying one and immediately leaving on a trip of a couple hundred miles. Yes, I got there, but many years later when I took the Basic Rider Course I learned all the things I had been doing wrong, some of which caused me a couple of spills and many more near disasters. So - can you learn the hard way? Sure, probably, you may even live to tell the tale. Should you? Maybe not if there's someone around who can show you the ropes. Of course that assumes your instructor actually knows wht he or she is doing. I've had some pretty sketchy "instruction" passed down by well meaning people.

I certainly wouldn't say that just watching any old YouTube video would be the way to learn hand propping an engine, or anything else. Any idiot can post nonsense on the Internet, and it seems nearly every idiot does. That's not to say there is no good information available via YT or other sources. Some things, like driving or flying, really do need in-person, one on one training. Other things can be learned by watching and doing. Then there are those things that can be learned by watching, but there is a strong argument to be made for having someone who's done it before on hand to make sure you don't hurt yourself the first few times you try it.

[1600vw]

Well... hardly the best method of learning to swim or drive, for sure. No better than pointing someone at an airplane and saying, "Here, go start that thing, willya? Just flip the prop a time or two and try not to lose an arm". I learned to ride a motorcycle by buying one and immediately leaving on a trip of a couple hundred miles. Yes, I got there, but many years later when I took the Basic Rider Course I learned all the things I had been doing wrong, some of which caused me a couple of spills and many more near disasters. So - can you learn the hard way? Sure, probably, you may even live to tell the tale. Should you? Maybe not if there's someone around who can show you the ropes. Of course that assumes your instructor actually knows wht he or she is doing. I've had some pretty sketchy "instruction" passed down by well meaning people.

I certainly wouldn't say that just watching any old YouTube video would be the way to learn hand propping an engine, or anything else. Any idiot can post nonsense on the Internet, and it seems nearly every idiot does. That's not to say there is no good information available via YT or other sources. Some things, like driving or flying, really do need in-person, one on one training. Other things can be learned by watching and doing. Then there are those things that can be learned by watching, but there is a strong argument to be made for having someone who's done it before on hand to make sure you don't hurt yourself the first few times you try it.

Tell the Wright brothers all this. They seemed to learn from a book just fine. They then went out and put what they learned to practice. We are lucky and have others who have done it to explain how its done. You do not have to pay some one to get this info. The ones who believe you do are the ones wanting this pay...IMHO

You like twisting words. I said teaching one self by reading and many other things. Not just watching some video then go and do it..But then if you did not twist things you would have no argument. Some like to argue. Nuff said.

Tony

[Floatsflyer]

Tell the Wright brothers all this. They seemed to learn from a book just fine. They then went out and put what they learned to practice. Tony

No, no, no, no, no,......you got it all wrong. No book required. I know that Orville and Wilbur viewed YouTube videos to learn how to hand prop. Then they looked at other videos to figure out how to make ailerons, use micro vortex generators, build an electric starter because they were scared s**tless about losing their arms and manufacture landing gear so they could actually fly somewhere rather than just do silly circuits around some cow dung filled pastures.

You could look it up.

[DaleB]

Tell the Wright brothers all this. They seemed to learn from a book just fine. They then went out and put what they learned to practice. We are lucky and have others who have done it to explain how its done. You do not have to pay some one to get this info. The ones who believe you do are the ones wanting this pay...IMHO

You like twisting words. I said teaching one self by reading and many other things. Not just watching some video then go and do it..But then if you did not twist things you would have no argument. Some like to argue. Nuff said.

Tony
Twisting words? Uncalled for, pal. I don't know if this is a reading comprehension thing or what, but you're way off in left field with that comment. I'm a big fan of self teaching, and if you knew the first thing about me you'd know what that means. You truly have no idea. I pointed out that "learning" high-risk activities such as in your own examples... tossing a kid in the water to "learn" to swim, or handing an 11 year old car keys to "learn" to drive is not the brightest idea. Sure, some will learn just fine. Others will die young. A failure rate of less than 100% does not necessarily indicate success.

And just to bring things back somewhere in the vicinity of the topic at hand... I've seen YouTube videos about hand propping. I've read about hand propping. I could probably do it solo if I had to, possibly even without damage or injury. I don't assume that I know enough from reading and watching to do it safely. Call me crazy, but I'd still prefer to have someone experienced show me how the first time or two. The question I had -- which was answered a few pages back -- was how to handle doing it if you're out in the boonies with no one around to help out.

[1600vw]

Saying all this, if someone wanted a radial or something like this hand propped, I would not step up and hand prop that. But if you need your A-65, or 0-200 propped I would do that.

Tony

[Gr8laker2T1A]

This thread is turning into Trolldom. You guys need to take chill pills or move on.
Have fun boys, I am done with this

[martymayes]

I took a 2 day course on hand propping. Here are some of my instructors demonstrating the fine art of propping:

[Bill Berson]

Ha ha, that's funny. Did they teach you to lick the dead bugs off the prop?

[martymayes]

Ha ha, that's funny. Did they teach you to lick the dead bugs off the prop?

I thought they were doing the aviation equivalent of sticking your tongue on a frozen flag pole. After a triple-dog-dare of course.

[Frank Giger]

Terrible form.

But it's not how well the bear hand props, but that he's hand propping at all.

[Bob Dingley]

A while back, one of my rowdy friends sent me a YouTube vid of Brazilian ag plane and ground crew. He's a redneck married to a Brazilian.
It shows them wrapping a rope around the prop shaft, tying it to a P.U. truck and driving off. The engine started. No, I'm not going to search YouTube for the video, but you can.

[wyoranch]

A while back, one of my rowdy friends sent me a YouTube vid of Brazilian ag plane and ground crew. He's a redneck married to a Brazilian.
It shows them wrapping a rope around the prop shaft, tying it to a P.U. truck and driving off. The engine started. No, I'm not going to search YouTube for the video, but you can.
I have seen that video as well, give me the idea to do that rather than hand propping my push mower ;-)
Rick

[jethro99]

Ha ha, that's funny. Did they teach you to lick the dead bugs off the prop?

Yes. In survival school. Lots of protein in those dead bugs. On propellers, windshields, leading edges. They sorta taste like chicken. Once you get past the crust you got it licked.

[Dana]

A while back, one of my rowdy friends sent me a YouTube vid of Brazilian ag plane and ground crew. He's a redneck married to a Brazilian.
It shows them wrapping a rope around the prop shaft, tying it to a P.U. truck and driving off. The engine started. No, I'm not going to search YouTube for the video, but you can.

I've seen film of a DC-3 being started that way. Apparently it wasn't that uncommon.

[Bill Berson]

Seems like a cockpit kickstarter would work since legs are stronger than arms. My Chief had a lever starter that barely worked and I removed it.

[Bob Dingley]

Seems like a cockpit kickstarter would work since legs are stronger than arms. My Chief had a lever starter that barely worked and I removed it.
The Champ I owned also had the remains of that system installed under the panel. Nobody in my circle had any idea what it was for or how it worked.
The neatest system for an plane with no electrical system consists of an ordinary drill motor mounted on the engine. It has a gear drive to turn the prop and a cockpit control to activate it. You could carry a few extra charged batteries if you were planning a long day. I believe that it was only approved for the T-Craft BC12.

[kwingram]

I hand prop a PA-11 from behind by myself to go flying, -8 engine so....

At home tying the tail is easy, I leave the rope hooked to a hydrant. Mine will readily start at low enough throttle to not move but if away from home another option is to use a bunny cord attached to the brake pedal on the master cylinders under the front seat and wrapped around the front seat frame legs for a manual parking brake.

I learned from a couple old hands but have learned much more since then. Most important to me is to follow a routine and even then check and recheck throttle and mag settings before touching the prop, each time you reach for it. Safety first, second and third!

[Bill Berson]

How about a string tied to the throttle knob? If the plane lurches forward the string will pull the throttle off. (Maybe :thumbsup:)

[Mike M]

... a bunny cord ...

bunny cord? :)

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.notonthehighstreet.com%2Ffs%2F cf%2F67%2Feed5-768f-421d-9321-1e91ca7572c8%2Foriginal_easter-rabbit-hanging-decoration.jpg&f=1

[Cary]

The way some folks hand-prop, maybe a rabbit's foot is appropriate! :eek:

Cary