Poll: Your plans for ADS-B Out compliance

[Mark van Wyk]

Where do you stand regarding ADS-B Out mandate compliance. Are you going to comply? Thinking about it? Refuse to comply?
I personally have done research on how much time and money it would take to make my C-150H ADS-B Out compliant. It's not particularly easy or cheap, IMHO. YMMV. I would be interested in seeing where others stand in complying with this mandate.
I chose the third option. Maybe, sometime after 2020.

[Jim Rosenow]

We did one airplane when the GDL88 came out, will do the other one before the mandate takes effect.

Jim

[Frank Giger]

My aircraft is basically a fat ultralight, and since I don't fly in areas that require a radio, let alone a transponder, I think I'll pass on ADSB.

[Joda]

I plan on complying at some point before the deadline, but I just haven't quite figured out the method yet. Every time I start to formulate a plan, some new piece of equipment gets introduced that makes me step back and rethink. I'll get there eventually!

[Mark van Wyk]

I plan on complying at some point before the deadline, but I just haven't quite figured out the method yet. Every time I start to formulate a plan, some new piece of equipment gets introduced that makes me step back and rethink. I'll get there eventually!
I've posted this same poll on three other aviation forums. Similar results. About a third (on average) have already complied, the other two thirds are in various stages of "thinking about it." I have also done research and pricing, and it's a fairly complex installation and not at all cheap. Some new, simpler solutions appear to be on the horizon -- something from Levil called "the Beacon" (http://aviation.levil.com/products.html), but it's not certified yet. You'd think the FAA would be all over this to fast track it and get it approved so that more airplanes would comply. You'd think. I've heard there is a difference in price between "experimental" and "certified" ADS-B Out, but I have not seen anything for experimental that is much lower in price than certified.

[martymayes]

Currently, this poll shows 2/3rds (66%) have no intention of meeting the deadline; a third have no intention of ever complying. The other third are either in compliance or plan to be by the deadline.

Interesting as that does not match industry claim that people are rushing to comply before the deadline, lol.

[Morrie Caudill]

I've posted this same poll on three other aviation forums. Similar results. About a third (on average) have already complied, the other two thirds are in various stages of "thinking about it." I have also done research and pricing, and it's a fairly complex installation and not at all cheap. Some new, simpler solutions appear to be on the horizon -- something from Levil called "the Beacon" (http://aviation.levil.com/products.html), but it's not certified yet. You'd think the FAA would be all over this to fast track it and get it approved so that more airplanes would comply. You'd think. I've heard there is a difference in price between "experimental" and "certified" ADS-B Out, but I have not seen anything for experimental that is much lower in price than certified.


I won't consider it until it's cost is less than 5% of my airplane.

[L16 Pilot]

Both of mine are "non electric" or no charging system so it's "out" (no pun intended) for me. Besides one of the reasons I sold my Cherokee was the seemingly ever present bills for radio and transponder work. My $200 hand held works just fine for my type of flying.

[Marc Zeitlin]

I won't consider it until it's cost is less than 5% of my airplane.I don't know what your plane is worth, but this:

http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-uat/

is only $1K, and works with your existing transponder.

[Kyle Boatright]

I don't know what your plane is worth, but this:

http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-uat/

is only $1K, and works with your existing transponder.

If you don't have an approved WAAS GPS, you'll need to add one. Uavionix plans to have one ready in a month or two for ~$500 if you can wait.

I spoke to them at length at SnF and came away impressed. I also spoke with the folks at the FAA staffed ADSB booth, who had good things to say about Uavionix's approach and products.

[Mark van Wyk]

I don't know what your plane is worth, but this:

http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-uat/

is only $1K, and works with your existing transponder.
From their web site: "UAT ADS-B Transceiver for Light Sport and Experimental Aircraft."
My airplane, a Cessna C-150H, is unfortunately a certified airplane, so the above is not "legal" or "certified," according to the ever-helpful FAA.

[Marc Zeitlin]

My airplane, a Cessna C-150H, is unfortunately a certified airplane...Well, there's your problem :-). I feel your pain, although I don't share it, since I fly a COZY MKIV.

[champ driver]

Even though I live under a Class B, I don't want it, I don't need it and I will never install it.

[Kurt Flunkn]

I'm taking a wait and see approach, hopefully the price will come down as the UAV makers start mass production of equipment for drones and crossover to certified aircraft occurs.

The sad part (other than the cost) is that ADS-B out does nothing to improve safety for those user only with ADS-B out. ADS-B in with weather is a great tool and will probably kill XM weather.

[Ernie]

See the thread on the aerobatics forum. I'll wait until the FAA makes a definitive statement in writing that I won't be harassed every time I go inverted; and that they won't specify more equipment if I do! I would actually like to have it, but...

Edit: No poll response works in this circumstance.

[Morrie Caudill]

Only $1K, really. Plus a $3K transponder, plus installation, plus testing, maintenance, and what ever FAA requirements are added to the rules in the future. No thanks. I don't currently have a transponder, don't need one, don't require one. Keep your eyes out the window. We are still here and won't show on your "IN".

[Joda]

ADS-B in with weather is a great tool and will probably kill XM weather.

The good thing about ADS-B weather is that it's free. The bad thing is that it's not available on the ground unless you're right next to a transmission source. That's the only real benefit of XM over ADS-B from my viewpoint. But the cost of XM weather is the show-stopper for me. I'm loving my Foreflight for weather, and will continue to use it!

[Flyboyron]

Only $1K, really. Plus a $3K transponder, plus installation, plus testing, maintenance, and what ever FAA requirements are added to the rules in the future. No thanks. I don't currently have a transponder, don't need one, don't require one. Keep your eyes out the window. We are still here and won't show on your "IN".

We equipped when we did an IFR upgrade at the end of 2014. Spent more than I should have, and was rewarded with being ineligible for the rebate. We knew what we were getting, and its limitations (installed OUT, and have a portable IN system giving me what benefits there are now.) But a lot of people still don't understand what they WON'T have, and I'm still waiting for the inevitable midair where the pilot thought all traffic was supposed to be visible.

Glad I have it now, but I would be surprised if your ability to fly without it will remain for long, just for the reason you cite above. The groundswell of folks who'll have misunderstood the limitation on traffic info, and the FAA's desire to do away with ground-based radar will, IMHO, make them remove the exemptions, and everyone will eventually have to get at least ADS-B out. The number of airplanes who'll be without it won't have enough political clout to resist, even with EAA's help.

Once they've seen they can require us to spend a fortune for their convenience, which they've known for a long time, they certainly won't spend precious federal money to fill the gaps with antiquated radar sites they have to build and maintain.

Enjoy the respite while you can. I doubt it will be long before it ends.

[Mark van Wyk]

Even though I live under a Class B, I don't want it, I don't need it and I will never install it.
I don't know the exact rules regarding Class B, particularly in your area, but if Mode C is required where you currently fly, I would think that you would not legally be able to fly without ADS-B Out post-2020. Or, so I understand. If so, you'll either need to move the plane somewhere where it's legal, or you are grounded.
My plane happens to be parked outside SFO 30-mile Mode C circle, and also outside KSJC Class C, so I actually can get by and fly places without ADS-B Out post-2020, but will need it if I want to fly into those Mode-C-required airports post-2020.

...Once they've seen they can require us to spend a fortune for their convenience, which they've known for a long time, they certainly won't spend precious federal money to fill the gaps with antiquated radar sites they have to build and maintain....
As I mentioned previously, I have a certified airplane, a C-150H. What I find particularly frustrating is that supposedly, experimentals and even drones have low-cost solutions available, but certified planes must choose from a handful of high-cost "certified" solutions. My understanding is that there are plenty of lower cost solutions out there, but it would appear to me that the FAA is foot-dragging in "certifying" lower-cost competitors. It sure feels like some collusion and protectionism is going on to protect the Garmins and other manufacturers. The FAA seems in no hurry to encourage plane owners to comply by certifying some low-cost, perfectly good ADS-B Out solutions.

[DaleB]

I will equip for OUT if and when I'm not pretty sure there will be something new in six months or a year that will make me regret buying what I bought. We're not there yet. If I had to equip today it would likely be the Stratus ESG - but I don't have to equip today. I'll keep you n with my Mode C transponder and Stratux and accept whatever convenience I get from nearby OUT equipped planes.

it would be nice to have, but I'm not in a big rush.

Oh, and if Champ Driver's Champ doesn't have an engine driven electrical system I don't think he ever has to install ADS-B.

[champ driver]

[QUOTE=Mark van Wyk;61992]I don't know the exact rules regarding Class B, particularly in your area, but if Mode C is required where you currently fly, I would think that you would not legally be able to fly without ADS

Like I said, I live under the Class B, not in it.

Please read the regs. 91.225
A transponder and ADSB is not required in the Mode C veil, if,...the aircraft doesn't have an engine driven electrical system.

(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS–B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

Most people assume that all aircraft must have Mode C and ADSB. Some of us have antique or classic planes that are not required to have any of that equipment. I don't operate in Class B or C and I will never climb above 10,000' either.

[Mark van Wyk]

Like I said, I live under the Class B, not in it.

Please read the regs. 91.225
A transponder and ADSB is not required in the Mode C veil, if,...the aircraft doesn't have an engine driven electrical system.

(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS–B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

Most people assume that all aircraft must have Mode C and ADSB. Some of us have antique or classic planes that are not required to have any of that equipment. I don't operate in Class B or C and I will never climb above 10,000' either.
Got it! Thanks.

[Mark van Wyk]

Poll results from various aviation web sites, as of 04/21/17. Thus far, the rich airplane owners of AOPA have the highest percentage of compliance. Others -- not so much.

[Auburntsts]

Poll results from various aviation web sites, as of 04/21/17. Thus far, the rich airplane owners of AOPA have the highest percentage of compliance. Others -- not so much.

Statistically biased data. AOPA forum members (like me and I also participated in your poll there too) aren't necessaily rich (I'm certainly not), just the owner population over at AOPA is more likely to own aircraft and fly in airspace that will require compliance if they want to maximize utility. I'm compliant because my plane is relatively new and when I was putting together the panel it made since to equip it with ADS-B out from the get go.

So with all of this polling, what is your goal?

[Mark van Wyk]

...So with all of this polling, what is your goal?...
Find out how many are complying; how many are thinking about it; and how many have made up their minds not to comply.
Also, I am finding out from other airplane owners the amount of time, money, and hassle they have spent, or are planning to spend, to install these complex systems.
And, I am trying to find a system I can justify installing in my C-150. Like another person wrote on this forum, I'm not going to pay more than 5 percent of the value of my airplane for a newfangled new transponder.

[Auburntsts]

Well ok, but does it really matter what other folks are doing? By now you have a real good feel for the cost, and the limitations/benefits of non-compliance/compliance (which IIRC from the AOPA threads was pretty minimal for you personally). It's OK not to install it for whatever the reason, just as it's OK to install it for whatever reason--it's your plane and your money so you don't need to justify your decision to anyone but yourself.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Find out how many are complying; how many are thinking about it; and how many have made up their minds not to comply.Be careful how you define "not comply". As long as you don't fly in airspace that requires a transponder or fly an aircraft that needs a transponder today (see Champ Driver's posts), you don't need ADS-B, and you ARE COMPLIANT. It's not being "resistant" if you're not required to have it.

"Not Complying" would be flying in airspace that requires a transponder and ADS-B and not having it. This would almost certainly get you in trouble quickly.


...I'm not going to pay more than 5 percent of the value of my airplane for a newfangled new transponder.Without being a jerk to you, I think you will if you need it to to fly in the airspace you want to fly in. Folks will bite the bullet if that's where they want to fly. Same thing happened when they required Mode-C - how many planes with transponders DON'T have Mode-C at this point? Champ Driver doesn't need a transponder, so he's immune to all of this, but he's not "not complying" - he is complying by not flying in airspace where either a transponder, Mode-C or ADS-B are required.

I avoid having to install RVSM equipment in my plane by never flying above 27K ft. :-).

But my guess is that the prices will come down a bit. I installed a Stratus ESG in a customer's plane a few months ago - it was < $3K, and another 10 hours of labor or so - had to do a bunch of work to the IP to get it to fit in a Long-EZ. So that's $4K total, give or take. I understand that that's a chunk of change, and I'm not happy about needing to spend it, but the airplane will be worth a lot less without it in there, since the next owner will have to spend that $$$ anyway, if he wants to fly in ADS-B airspace. Since you can't do the labor yourself unless your A&P lets you, you may not be able to save the $1K in labor. But maybe the hardware comes down to $2K in the next couple of years, if we're lucky.

[champ driver]

Be careful how you define "not comply". As long as you don't fly in airspace that requires a transponder or fly an aircraft that needs a transponder today (see Champ Driver's posts), you don't need ADS-B, and you ARE COMPLIANT. It's not being "resistant" if you're not required to have it.

"Not Complying" would be flying in airspace that requires a transponder and ADS-B and not having it. This would almost certainly get you in trouble quickly.

Without being a jerk to you, I think you will if you need it to to fly in the airspace you want to fly in. Folks will bite the bullet if that's where they want to fly. Same thing happened when they required Mode-C - how many planes with transponders DON'T have Mode-C at this point? Champ Driver doesn't need a transponder, so he's immune to all of this, but he's not "not complying" - he is complying by not flying in airspace where either a transponder, Mode-C or ADS-B are required.

Darn it, and I was trying to be a bit of an anarchist.

[sr2500]

I installed the NavWorx Transmon gizmo and antennas in my Murphy Super Rebel project, but haven't bought the box yet. Now I have to wait and see what the outcome of the FAA mess is before I proceed. Will be watching the new one from the UK as well.
Jerry Folkerts

[Mark van Wyk]

Well ok, but does it really matter what other folks are doing? By now you have a real good feel for the cost, and the limitations/benefits of non-compliance/compliance (which IIRC from the AOPA threads was pretty minimal for you personally). It's OK not to install it for whatever the reason, just as it's OK to install it for whatever reason--it's your plane and your money so you don't need to justify your decision to anyone but yourself.
1. I think the data is interesting, and I happen to know that it's interesting to others, as well.
2. I'm secretly hoping that the FAA is reading this and is getting concerned that so few airplane owners are installing ADS-B Out. I'm hoping the FAA can do something about the excessive cost of "certified" ADS-B Out installations and stop being so bureaucratic and certify more solutions and let the free market do it's magic and bring costs down, so that more airplanes have ADS-B Out.

[saber25]

Nearly fifty years of aviating including military and commercial without ADS-B. With thirty percent aviation decrease in general aviation I'm not too worried about the mid-air prevention aspect. I don't like Big Brother over my shoulder watching my every move. I can hear the howls coming when ADS-B makes privatization so much more streamlined for collection purposes.

[DaleB]

2. I'm secretly hoping that the FAA is reading this and is getting concerned that so few airplane owners are installing ADS-B Out. I'm hoping the FAA can do something about the excessive cost of "certified" ADS-B Out installations and stop being so bureaucratic and certify more solutions and let the free market do it's magic and bring costs down, so that more airplanes have ADS-B Out.
I'm sure the FAA couldn't care less about what we think. If they did, they wouldn't have cut off ADS-B for people using non-certified GPS sources. There are a number of things they COULD be doing to reduce cost and increase adoption, but they seem to be uninterested in any of them. All they have to do is make the rule and enforce it after 1/1/2020.

[Mark van Wyk]

I'm sure the FAA couldn't care less about what we think. If they did, they wouldn't have cut off ADS-B for people using non-certified GPS sources. There are a number of things they COULD be doing to reduce cost and increase adoption, but they seem to be uninterested in any of them. All they have to do is make the rule and enforce it after 1/1/2020.
Can you say "agenda" - as in, keep pesky small planes out of the way of airliners by mandating installation of an expensive new transponder?
Why isn't EAA or AOPA doing more to help cut the red tape bring cheaper solutions for small plane owners?

[1600vw]

I had a friend fly in today. I saw this unit on his dash panel. I asked him if that was his ADS-B in-out. He said yes it is. I asked what did it cost. He said 300 bucks. I told him to send me a link.

Tony

[Mark van Wyk]

I had a friend fly in today. I saw this unit on his dash panel. I asked him if that was his ADS-B in-out. He said yes it is. I asked what did it cost. He said 300 bucks. I told him to send me a link.

Tony
What are you referring to? What unit on his dash panel?
If it's a portable ADS-B Out, it might be used to "ping" the system so that he can receive ADS-B In, but the FAA is going to disable that soon, if they have not already. Eventually only certified, registered ADS-B Out will be able to ping the system.
No way a portable is going to satisfy the ADS-B Out mandate. No way, no how. There are a handful of approved certified ADS-B Out models for sale. That's it.
As for experimentals and LSAs, I hear there are cheaper solutions available, but my plane is certified, so I'm not paying attention to those.

[Mike Switzer]

Why isn't EAA or AOPA doing more to help cut the red tape bring cheaper solutions for small plane owners?

AOPA leadership was fully behind the ADS-B mandate. One of the reasons I dropped them when they increased the dues again.

[Kyle Boatright]

AOPA leadership was fully behind the ADS-B mandate. One of the reasons I dropped them when they increased the dues again.

Were they? I certainly don't remember them figuratively "laying across the railroad tracks" to stop it. Which is what they should have done. Or at least, they should have pressed for more reasonable extents of the airspace.

[Mark van Wyk]

I had a friend fly in today. I saw this unit on his dash panel. I asked him if that was his ADS-B in-out. He said yes it is. I asked what did it cost. He said 300 bucks. I told him to send me a link.

Tony
I'm pretty sure those aren't even legal anymore.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q8

https://support.foreflight.com/hc/en-us/articles/205428857-Can-I-use-a-portable-ADS-B-Out-system-in-my-aircraft-

[1600vw]

What are you referring to? What unit on his dash panel?
If it's a portable ADS-B Out, it might be used to "ping" the system so that he can receive ADS-B In, but the FAA is going to disable that soon, if they have not already. Eventually only certified, registered ADS-B Out will be able to ping the system.
No way a portable is going to satisfy the ADS-B Out mandate. No way, no how. There are a handful of approved certified ADS-B Out models for sale. That's it.
As for experimentals and LSAs, I hear there are cheaper solutions available, but my plane is certified, so I'm not paying attention to those.

Seeing how this is an EAA site that stands for Experimental, I am talking about experimental. I can say this about my friend. He is an award winner at Oshkosh for his work. But I will not share the link he sends me.

Tony

[Mike Switzer]

Were they? I certainly don't remember them figuratively "laying across the railroad tracks" to stop it. Which is what they should have done. Or at least, they should have pressed for more reasonable extents of the airspace.

The AOPA President at the time (cant remember his name) even wrote a couple articles in the magazine saying how ADS-B was wonderful, in one he told about how it saved his wife from getting busted for entering the DC no fly zone (or something like that) because the records proved exactly where their plane was at the time. Personally, I don't want the government to be able to know exactly where I am at any time, but then I am one of those nuts that keeps location services disabled on my phone. All ADS-B is is a way to eventually implement a pay for FAA services scheme.

[Mark van Wyk]

...I hear there are cheaper solutions available, but my plane is certified, so I'm not paying attention to those...

Seeing how this is an EAA site that stands for Experimental, I am talking about experimental. I can say this about my friend. He is an award winner at Oshkosh for his work. But I will not share the link he sends me.
Tony
I apologize for my abrupt comment. It's great that there are sensible, low-cost ADS-B out solutions for experimentals. And, it's exasperating that there are only a handful of expensive, complex approved solutions for certified airplanes. I don't understand why the types of aircraft are treated differently in regards to the ADS-B Out mandate. I know EAA stands for Experimental, but my guess is that more than 50 percent of EAA members own and fly certified airplanes. I'm sure that attendance at the annual Oshkosh event is well more than 50 percent certified aircraft. Probably more like 75 percent. And, I'm not the only certified airplane owner who is not happy with being required to install expensive ($5K-$6K) for a new transponder. It shouldn't cost that much.