My Airline Experience

[Bill Greenwood]

The recent controversy in the news now reminds me of two times I have been on overbooked flights. The first was United, just a one hour flight and they were asking for volunteers to give up seats. They offered $1000 and one person was a lady with a baby who needed two seats so I asked if the $1000 was cash now (or check), and if they would furnish a hotel room for me overnight. I knew they have a decent hotel, about 3 stars that their crews use, and with a short airport shuttle, so for $1000 I was willing to stay overnight and go the next morning. But turns out the $1000 was a travel voucher, so not as useful and a few other people took took the offer while I was asking.
Another time was with another airline, and plans changed at the last minute so I was the extra passenger on the later flgiht. The folks I spoke with were nice and politely said the flight was listed as full but to come to the gate from my connecting flight and they'd try to get me on. Sure enough there were a few no shows and I was the last one to get a seat about 5 minutes before departure. This happened to be in Chicago also. I hadnt eaten all day and boy that quick hot dog sure tasted good. Dont know if Chicago really has best dogs or I was just really hungry.
This last time especially they folks were very nice that made it ok, even if I had not gotten on that plane.

In both cases this was before everyone was seated on the flight and was resolves at the gate.

[Bill Greenwood]

Jut thought of being in the food line at Oskosh which can get pretty crowded at times. The key is not to wait til the the last minute when you are really hungry. Anyway when you finally get to the front, the high school and college young people who work there are almost always friendly and makes the wait okay. Same for most of the convention.

I also recall dinner once at a restaurant where there was some major problem in the kitchen. The orders came out slow and were all wrong and had to be sent back and came out even slower the next time. But the waiter went out of his way to be nice and honestly explained the problem, made no false promises of only a few more minutes and made the best of it for all.

[Gil]

I have been on several overbooked flights and took the offer one time on the way to Las Vegas. Instead of direct through Chicago, they routed me through Phoenix and gave me a voucher (I have since learned you can insist on cash). I got to Las Vegas a couple of hours later than my original flight, no big deal.

[FlyingRon]

I took the voluntary overbooking once. The only stupidity was that I was ticketed for the dawn-of-crack flight because it was $200 cheaper than the one that left mid-morning. They ended up putting me on the one I wanted to be on (still I had to get up two hours earlier). I got involuntarily bumped once and they put me in First Class on a one stopper that left the same time (I was on the non-stop) which arrived two hours later. Frankly, if they promised to put me in first on the later flight, they could get me to volunteer more. I don't know why they don't do that.

The only really annoying thing was the flight they put me on was already close to getting the door shut. The gate agent at the first flight told me to run over to the other gate. They waived me down the jetway and into the plane as they shut the plane door behind me. At this point I realized I had none of my ticket paperwork (let alone a boarding pass for the connecting flight). When I got to Chicago, the gate agent gave me a lot of lip about my situation.

ME: Hi, I got bumped from the direct flight to Dulles, and I need a boarding pass for this flight.
AGENT: OK, let me see your original paperwork.
ME: I don't have it, they kept it in San Francisco.
AGENT: They wouldn't have done that.
ME: Believe me, they did. It was a very rushed deal, I had to run to the other gate to make the flight.

this went around for a while until the guy begrudgingly typed my name into the computer and got me a boarding pass. What was really annoying was when I got to Dulles (well after midnight) there was exactly one United employee left in the terminal. I was supposed to get a coupon for a future flight. Since all I had was some baggage claim rep who didn't have access to what he needed to issue it, he printed out what was under my name in their computer. Amusingly, at the top of my file (clear to Mr. Chicago idiot if he had looked) was a note from the SFO agents telling them that they indeed had my paperwork and I had been inconvenienced by the flight change and that they should issue me my first class boarding pass, a travel coupon, and any other accommodations I needed) due to the screw up on the far end.

Frankly, the airlines need to weed out those who are not customer motivated. It only takes a few to really mess up the works.

Years ago I was making a connection in MSP (this was in the old Northwest days). It came to the attention of those of us waiting at the gate that while we had an airplane there, there was no gate agent and it was now 20 minutes prior to departure and that seemed odd. I walked down to the next gate and pointed that out to an agent there who was (I kid you not) wearing a tie tack which was an old-style beer can pop-top tab. Now mind you, this was an airline known for a couple of incidents of drunken pilots. The guy tells me I am mistaken, there MUST be an agent there. I suspect he was drunk, too. Finally, I guess the flight crew got to wondering why nobody was getting on the plane and rattled some cages. They pulled in several agents (Including Mr. PopTop Tie) to process the backlog. I smirked when I gave him my bording pass.

[Frank Giger]

I try to fly Delta whenever possible, as every time they asked to bump me they were very polite, gave me a voucher for a free round trip domestic flight (now they give a dollar value), and a meal ticket. Since I'm somewhat perk driven, I ask (and usually got) access to the Sky Lounge VIP waiting area. One can fall asleep in a recliner and the staff will wake one when it's time to meet the flight, and the bathrooms are much less adventurous than the ones in the terminal.

Most of my flights in the past couple decades, though, were on your tax dollars (and yes, I'm very aware and grateful for it), and so I was bump-proof.

Frank "My TWA travel bag is worn, where can I get a replacement" Giger

[Mayhemxpc]

Bill,

YES, Chicago hot dogs really are that good...but not worth having to change planes in Chicago. (Similarly, genuine frankfurters in the Frankfurt airport are ALMOST worth changing planes there -- if you don't have to be changing planes between United and Lufthansa...1.25 miles through the airport, I kid you not.)

One time I took the two hour delay when accepting an offer from United for an overbooked flight. They put me on a Lufthansa flight. 747 vs 767, which was nice. Exit row seat, which on a 747 means the next row is about 8 feet in front of you. The food was good, and THEY EVEN GAVE ME STEEL EATING UTENSILS (even a knife!) Afterwards I had fun trying to get my mileage points. They wanted to credit me only the minimum amount because it was on a star alliance partner rater than United. I showed them the ticket was on United and the money went to United, and somehow they finally agreed to give me the proper credit.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Quality customer service is an item that does NOT cost a corporation (any corporation) $$$, it makes money. TV commercials cost a small fortune to make and air. How much has this 'free' negative publicity cost United? They could have just kept upping the cash offer till enough passengers agreed.

[raytoews]

We have become amazingly spoiled.
I'm sure most have seen the movie, Living In The Time Of Airplanes and can appreciate how complicated the system is and how rapidly it was built.
The system was built and the airlines had to develop their's at the same pace.
Safety is a good example, we have had accidents and learned from each one to the point where the chance of dying in an airliner in North America is ZERO.
Bus, car and train can't say that. We in General Aviation definitely can't say that.
The airlines have done an historic job of giving us the freedom to move about and,,, boy do we travel.
Flying is considered a high consequence occupation, and billions of dollars have to be invested yet a single employee with a bad judgement call can wipe out a lot of investment with a few cell phone videos.
How many of you are going to invest in an airline that faces these kinds of consequences.
How many airplanes does United have in their fleet, how many billions of new Boeing's do they have on the order book.

Cut ALL the airlines a little slack, stop being so damn demanding when you don't get the unrealistic service they have been trying to provide and be grateful you don't have to walk.
When was the last time you took a boat across the Atlantic or train across the country.
Doesn't take long to understand why we all like to fly.

[lnuss]

Doesn't take long to understand why we all like to fly.

But not on airliners these days (for me, anyhow). All the stuff you have to put up with (I know the stated reasons) is beyond what I am willing to endure, so I'll drive if I can't go general aviation. And I used to love to travel airlines, but that's a long time ago.

[rwanttaja]

But not on airliners these days (for me, anyhow). All the stuff you have to put up with (I know the stated reasons) is beyond what I am willing to endure, so I'll drive if I can't go general aviation. And I used to love to travel airlines, but that's a long time ago.
With the exception of the TSA crap, the majority of people's issues with airline travel is self-inflicted. You *can* have an old-style experience...wide seats, lots of legroom, lots of overhead space, free checked luggage, early boarding, personalized attention from the flight attendants, first off the aircraft, etc... you just have to be willing to pay for a first-class ticket. It's surprisingly cheap, at times.

Most people sort their airline searches by cost, and select the lowest-cost option irregardless. Therefore, there's no advantage for an airline to provide a better experience in coach. People whine about United now, but if the airline were to drop their airfares by ~$25 or so their planes would be full again.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

... you just have to be willing to pay for a first-class ticket. It's surprisingly cheap, at times.

Ron Wanttaja

I'm willing, tell me when, where, and who it's "surprisingly cheap", even comparatively to economy.

[Floatsflyer]

People whine about United now, but if the airline were to drop their airfares by ~$25 or so their planes would be full again.

Ron Wanttaja

Maybe after some good amount of time had passed with the "United Breaks Guitars" incident that captured the world's attention in 2009 but not this latest horrific event. Why? Because millions of law abiding, innocent, non-security risk passengers rightfully sitting aboard an airplane with a purchased ticket know that this heinous and violent corporate malfeasance could have happened to them. A pox on United. May they be sued out of existence and go the way of Eastern, Braniff, Pan Am, Air Florida, Frontier, National, Trump, and so many more. Do not f**k with your paying customers. Do not physically harm them-that's insane!

[rwanttaja]

I'm willing, tell me when, where, and who it's "surprisingly cheap", even comparatively to economy.
The question is, have you even bothered to check? Or do you just select "Coach"?

$30 extra, for one leg of a trip I'm taking soon. Overall on the entire trip, it was ~$300 more.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

The question is, have you even bothered to check? Or do you just select "Coach"?

$30 extra, for one leg of a trip I'm taking soon. Overall on the entire trip, it was ~$300 more.

Ron Wanttaja

No, I don't check any longer because the difference can be from about $1000 to the multi-thousands subject to distance/destination from Toronto. Your deal sounds extraordinary especially if it's a long distance flight. However, if it's only Seattle to Portland or some other short haul, I wouldn't pay the extra $300.

[Frank Giger]

For a really long flight (more than a couple hours), I check the Business or First Class ticket prices.

Depending on when one is getting on the flying tube, it can be a nearly nominal fee compared to what could be a very long flight back in coach.

And I gave up on the discount airlines a long time ago. Not because of the airlines themselves, but the people one is forced to deal with while trapped aboard.

[rwanttaja]

No, I don't check any longer because the difference can be from about $1000 to the multi-thousands subject to distance/destination from Toronto. Your deal sounds extraordinary especially if it's a long distance flight. However, if it's only Seattle to Portland or some other short haul, I wouldn't pay the extra $300.

The $30 extra was just a short jaunt, a bit over an hour, but it was part of a whole round trip of ~3500 miles and the total first class airfare was about $350. Taking a trip this week, 2800 miles, where the first class was about $400 more (counting both legs). Different airline, but the first-class airfare includes access to their VIP lounges and those are nice (free munchies and soda, comfortable armchairs, free wifi, etc.).

But we've got only two data points established. Let's do a thought experiment and see what the cost of a more-comfortable flight would be without delving into first-class.

Let's imagine we've got a single-class airliner. Cattlecar Airlines puts six seats across, with 35 rows, with a 29" seat pitch (economy spacing). That's 210 people. If they all pay $200 for a ticket, that's $42,000. Half of them have checked bags, with a $25 fee, for an additional $2625. The airline receives $44,625.

Now comes our aggressive young start-up, Floatsair. They're going to give you SIX inches additional legroom. In addition, they're going to five-across seating, which makes each seat roughly 3-4" wider. The same type of airplane, so they'll fit less than three-quarters of the passengers carried by Cattlecar. They're also going to waive the checked-baggage fee. Having more than 50 people fewer in the cabin frees up a lot of overhead storage space, and speeds up boarding and unboarding.

So... what airfare do they have to charge to have the same income? About 50% more than Catttlecar Airlines: $307 vs. $200. There'll be some savings for Floatsair, since they probably don't need as large of a cabin crew. But the airfare will still be significantly higher.

And, of course, 99% of the potential customers sort their searches by price. They'll pick Cattlecar Airlines every time, and pat themselves on the back for being a smart shopper.

There have been several startups promising the same improved experience as Floatsair. All have tanked, because their airfare is higher. People want the comfort and service of air travel in the 70s, but aren't willing to pay the (adjusted) cost. Which is why I tend to roll my eyes when people complain about how awful air travel is today....

Ron Wanttaja

[DaleB]

Two flights on United today. Both completely full; both with little enough legroom even my wife was in pain after a 2 hour flight. It's a flying sardine can.

On the bright side, she did realize part way through that the RV-12 is more comfortable, the service is better and she could pack a full size bottle of shampoo. :) Considering that last weekend we also drove 9 hours when we could have flown less than 4 (were it not for nasty weather the whole trip) I think she may be coming around.

And Ron... my employer won't pay for first class, and every time I have been tempted they've wanted 2-3x the cost of the ticket for per leg. If you can find good deals on first class more power to you, but that has never been my experience. Not even once.

[rwanttaja]

...And Ron... my employer won't pay for first class, and every time I have been tempted they've wanted 2-3x the cost of the ticket for per leg. If you can find good deals on first class more power to you, but that has never been my experience. Not even once.

My former employer was the same way. Had to be the lowest cost, even if it was a one-stop that took hours longer than the non-stop. Could get an executive-level manager to sign off on it, though, so usually could get the non-stops.

It's ironic that airlines have "business class" that many employers don't allow their people to take advantage of.

I used to think that First Class was ridiculously expensive, but my wife (who has become addicted to it) has gotten better and better at finding the deals. We're taking a trip soon, and she saved $400 on the original first-class fare by coming home on a Wednesday instead of a Tuesday.

Just for S&Gs, I queried Delta regarding a potential round trip from Seattle to Minneapolis in June. For one flight, the first-class fare was almost $1000 higher than coach. But one leaving just 2 hours later, the price difference was just $215.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

Now comes our aggressive young start-up, Floatsair. They're going to give you SIX inches additional legroom. In addition, they're going to five-across seating, which makes each seat roughly 3-4" wider. The same type of airplane, so they'll fit less than three-quarters of the passengers carried by Cattlecar. They're also going to waive the checked-baggage fee. Having more than 50 people fewer in the cabin frees up a lot of overhead storage space, and speeds up boarding and unboarding.Ron Wanttaja

Thanks, great name, very catchy. But you forgot to mention the largest cost savings. As it's an all seaplane and amphibious fleet airline this translates into much lower ticket prices because traditional airports and the fees their authorities charge are not required. Think bases similar to the ones used by the Pan Am China Clippers in the Pacific and Carribean.

[Bill Greenwood]

The extra cost of first class may be worth if for long trips like overseas or if you are tall etc. of just wealthy enough that cost is not a factor. But for shorter triops, lets say first class is $500 more, that would buy you anohter night at a hotel in Hawaii or anoghter ski day for family or 3 four star dinners., or another 45 min dual in a T6

[rwanttaja]

The extra cost of first class may be worth if for long trips like overseas or if you are tall etc. of just wealthy enough that cost is not a factor. But for shorter triops, lets say first class is $500 more, that would buy you anohter night at a hotel in Hawaii or anoghter ski day for family or 3 four star dinners., or another 45 min dual in a T6

Certainly! But the point is, when you decide to spend you money on something other than airline comfort, you have no one to blame but yourself if you're crammed into a too-small seat for hours on end. If you decide to spend your money on a wet bar instead of a refrigerator, it's not the furniture-makers fault if your beer is warm.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

There is a good paperback by Gordon Bethune about when he took over Continental Airlines and found they were ranked last in 9 of 10 categories and next to last in that one. He did rebuild the airline, a good book to read.
One thing the prevoius mangagment tried to do was cut all corners to operate on minimum budget. Gordon said it was like making pizza, first you cut the fresh tomatoes for canned ones, then you use cheaper sauage, then less cheese. Pretty soon you succeed in making a pizza so cheap nobody wants to eat one.
Airlines sell transportation and do it safely, an A for this. But they have cut customer service to the bone. Even my favorite airline, instead of real food comes around and hands out pnuts so everyone can have bad breath for the rest of the flight. And by crowding a few more seats in a plane they are getting to the point of so tight and confined seatind space the nobody is happy with that. Having a seat that holds a normal person should be part of the trip, just as if you bought a ticket on a train or bus or for a play. Having a place to seat is an implied part of the cost and airlines are getting pretty close to the line on that.

[Bill Greenwood]

And should airlines even be a part of EAA forum? Remember when the Concord came to Oshkosh, one of the all time highllgths there and also the Airbus 380!
A big part of aviation, just like a guy in a wing suit.

[lnuss]

With the exception of the TSA crap, the majority of people's issues with airline travel is self-inflicted.

And it's that "TSA crap" that keeps me away, though I keep hearing about other problems too.

[Bill Greenwood]

How was Dr. Dao's problem with United in any way "self-inflicted"? He bought a ticket, arrived, checked in on time and boarded, and was sitting in his assigned seat when United or to be exact Republic acting for United created the problem.
I just did an online
course about flight decision making, that reminds me of this controversy. There are really 3 steps to making a gen av flight, 1 you plan ahead 2 you gather wether info etc, 3. you act on info as you fly. The key is really in no 1. If you really want to be somewhere, say in 5 days at a wedding, you have to take into account that you may get to the point where you cant fly safely, have to go on airline, train or drive etc. This saves you getting into a situuation where you have to chose to contiue with limited fuel or make a fuel stop and face a night landing.
United( Republic) didnt seem to think out their policy well. If you are going to have employees that come at the last minute to get on a fully booked, boareded, and seated flight, what are you going to do? You can offer compensation, and maybe for enough money get 4 people to give up seats, but a cupon for $800 is unlikely to do it. If you have no other option than to call security to attack a 69 year old Doctor seated with his wife, that is not good managment. Now, after the fact, the United management says they wont do it again, but they cant undo the bad publicity.
By the way, anoying as the whole idea of TSA can be, I have had little trouble with them in the last few years, mostly went smoothly. Maybe somewhere deep in a computer it decided after decades of travel Im not a threat.

[Floatsflyer]

Just when you thought you'd heard and seen just about everything bad and horrible that happens today at commercial airports and on commercial airplanes. Yesterday an AA pilot was physically attacked in an unprovoked manner by a passenger as he was leaving the Kansas City terminal.

How is it that an airport and it's aircraft has become a more dangerous and perilous place than walking through a low income housing project after dark? We live in interesting times.

[martymayes]

How was Dr. Dao's problem with United in any way "self-inflicted"? He bought a ticket, arrived, checked in on time and boarded, and was sitting in his assigned seat when United or to be exact Republic acting for United created the problem.

Just to be clear, the gate agent that "re-accommodated" the passenger was a United Airlines employee.

[Mayhemxpc]

There has got to be more to the story that I don't know about. Otherwise United has been so exceptionally stupid that one will have to wonder about other aspects of their operations...like safety. A quick look on Travelocity shows that there are 32 flights from Chicago to Louisville every day. Some have an inconvenient stop. Southwest has another 4, with 2 departing after the last United flight out of ORD. So someone decided that the reputational damage to the airline was preferable than placing that aircrew on another airline, or even quick putting them on the EL to get to MDW. No matter how the situation would have turned out, even if Dr. Dao went happily, it was going to have reputation damage. When no one wanted to get off, the bad rep was certain. But somehow they were not able to figure out other options. Extrapolating from this, the airline seems to be unable to come up with other acceptable options when some undesirable event occurs.

WRT fare variances. I made a business trip to Europe last month. $1000 each way. Plane half empty. I am leaving again today -- same airline, same destination. $800 round trip and the plane is near full. I am trying to figure out the business model that leads to that. (Yes, I know, more people will buy a ticket at $800 than $2000. But why charge $2000 to begin with?)

[Floatsflyer]

There has got to be more to the story that I don't know about. Otherwise United has been so exceptionally stupid that one will have to wonder about other aspects of their operations...like safety. A quick look on Travelocity shows that there are 32 flights from Chicago to Louisville every day. Some have an inconvenient stop. Southwest has another 4, with 2 departing after the last United flight out of ORD. So someone decided that the reputational damage to the airline was preferable than placing that aircrew on another airline, or even quick putting them on the EL to get to MDW. No matter how the situation would have turned out, even if Dr. Dao went happily, it was going to have reputation damage. When no one wanted to get off, the bad rep was certain. But somehow they were not able to figure out other options. Extrapolating from this, the airline seems to be unable to come up with other acceptable options when some undesirable event occurs.

WRT fare variances. I made a business trip to Europe last month. $1000 each way. Plane half empty. I am leaving again today -- same airline, same destination. $800 round trip and the plane is near full. I am trying to figure out the business model that leads to that.


There is no more to the story, you heard and saw it all just like the rest of the world. Giant name brand corporate behemoth of an airline doing really dumb s**t once again. And then a really dumb shmuck of a CEO who first commended his staff for their dispicable behaviour, then flip flopped after the backlash, then took over 48 hours to apologize and unequivocally state that the reluctant Doctor did nothing wrong. He should be fired for cause with no golden handshake because he showed zero leadership and an inability to get out in front of the story and take responsibility and control the damage.

There are a handful of airlines that truly put the customer first and care about service. But for the rest of them, there is a profound sociopathic culture of indifference, apathy, inability to tell right from wrong,
neglect, disrespect, dismissiveness, abusiveness and hatefulness shown to passengers and this is why they continue to be "exceptionally stupid". The American stroller on board incident this week and less than a week after the United event proves that.

Fare variances and the airline business model: Very simple. For every seat on board no matter where located, no matter the aircraft, charge every passenger a different fare. It's called economic chaos theory. We passengers haven't figured out yet that the back of the plane arrives at destination at the same time as the front of the plane.