Instrumentation for the Pietenpol

[Bradley Coleman]

I'm currently still in the very early stages of building my Pietenpol (waiting for wood for wing ribs).
often times in my boredom between my Accounting 202 and ECON 201 classes I get lost in day dreaming about what I could do. Ultimately, I want it to look like a classy wooden plane from its own design days, but when you sit in the cockpit I want that old world to clash with this generation of technology. I haven't given this much thought so forgive my ignorance but... could I install an EFD instead of drilling multiple holes for a number of instruments?
i guess my concerns would be the peripherals that I'm not think of that would need to be installed on the plane. I'm up for it all, so long it doesn't make massive changes to the CG of the plane.

[rwanttaja]

I saw this a couple of weeks back, and seriously drooled at the idea of putting it in a Fly Baby. It's the Aeolus Sense by Talon Avionics. For $600, you get a box that does all the sensing, and wirelessly sends to an Android or Apple Tablet:

http://www.talosavionics.com/aeolus-sense/

Good video explaining the setup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EyxTI8fL34

Ron Wanttaja

[Bradley Coleman]

WOW! That's amazing! The only thing you would have to ensure is that you can keep the device of choice charging throughout the flight!

[rwanttaja]

WOW! That's amazing! The only thing you would have to ensure is that you can keep the device of choice charging throughout the flight!
Plenty of car chargers available; one could permanently install one with the appropriate connector on the panel where the tablet goes.

My personal inclination is to just buy a dedicated tablet for the airplane and clamp it to the panel. Tablets are pretty cheap these days, and certainly a used one would be even cheaper and probably a good option.

My only concern would be sunlight readability. However, for a low-and-slow airplane like the Piet or Fly Baby, the EFIS would be more an occasional reference rather than a vital item.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bradley Coleman]

Plenty of car chargers available; one could permanently install one with the appropriate connector on the panel where the tablet goes.

My personal inclination is to just buy a dedicated tablet for the airplane and clamp it to the panel. Tablets are pretty cheap these days, and certainly a used one would be even cheaper and probably a good option.

My only concern would be sunlight readability. However, for a low-and-slow airplane like the Piet or Fly Baby, the EFIS would be more an occasional reference rather than a vital item.

Ron Wanttaja

There are tons a quality glare protectors that are dirt cheap and do a fantastic job. The most common thing I see happen for pilots who use tablets are overheating in direct sunlight. However I can't see this being a problem in open cockpits.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rwanttaja]

...The most common thing I see happen for pilots who use tablets are overheating in direct sunlight. However I can't see this being a problem in open cockpits.
Well...I've been flying open cockpit almost exclusively for thirty years, and and not as sanguine about avoiding overheating.

A well-designed open cockpit isn't all that drafty, and the slipstream normally won't directly impinge on the panel. And an open-cockpit airplane is probably more likely to be flying on hot days. Plus, of course, the tablet will heat up in the direct sunlight, at least during some parts of the day/some aircraft headings.

There's also the case of the airplane heating up while sitting on the ground. With the sun at the wrong angle, it'll be directly impacting the device. Which, while off, has a dark screen and is more likely to absorb solar heating. Sitting all day at a Fly-In isn't going to help. Though, of course, you would probably dismount the panel for theft prevention anyway. But like I posted earlier, I'm more tending towards a permanent installation.

I'm just a little sensitive about the heat-soak issue. Couple of summers back, my Fly Baby's wings swelled in the heat and sun on the ground enough to cause interference to the ailerons.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/heat_controls.html

But please, don't take my comments as being negative on the concept. I'd be happy to do it, myself. The only way to really know if one would have a glare or heat problem is to actually install an EFIS in an open-cockpit machine, and I'd love to give it a shot. The great things about Piets and Fly Babies is that the instruments are really secondary; they're not truly vital for flight. If an EFIS craps out in flight, those planes can be easily flown back and landed without gauges.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bradley Coleman]

Well...I've been flying open cockpit almost exclusively for thirty years, and and not as sanguine about avoiding overheating.

A well-designed open cockpit isn't all that drafty, and the slipstream normally won't directly impinge on the panel. And an open-cockpit airplane is probably more likely to be flying on hot days. Plus, of course, the tablet will heat up in the direct sunlight, at least during some parts of the day/some aircraft headings.

There's also the case of the airplane heating up while sitting on the ground. With the sun at the wrong angle, it'll be directly impacting the device. Which, while off, has a dark screen and is more likely to absorb solar heating. Sitting all day at a Fly-In isn't going to help. Though, of course, you would probably dismount the panel for theft prevention anyway. But like I posted earlier, I'm more tending towards a permanent installation.

I'm just a little sensitive about the heat-soak issue. Couple of summers back, my Fly Baby's wings swelled in the heat and sun on the ground enough to cause interference to the ailerons.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/heat_controls.html

But please, don't take my comments as being negative on the concept. I'd be happy to do it, myself. The only way to really know if one would have a glare or heat problem is to actually install an EFIS in an open-cockpit machine, and I'd love to give it a shot. The great things about Piets and Fly Babies is that the instruments are really secondary; they're not truly vital for flight. If an EFIS craps out in flight, those planes can be easily flown back and landed without gauges.

Ron Wanttaja

I've never thought about the wing swelling up but it makes sense!
I would probably prefer to rig up a permanent mount inside the dash along with a charging cable but the device would more than likely stay on hand for applications such as ForeFlight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DaleB]

I'm kind of torn on my Celebrity build. Part of me likes the ridiculous ease of installing a single, light weight, shallow depth screen for everything. You get full engine instrumentation, all of it. Used EFIS panels are not terribly expensive, especially if you price out a few decent quality steam gauges.

On the other hand... it's a wood and fabric biplane! It really needs a more vintage looking panel, preferably independent of the electrical system. And since I'm only a few ribs in, it seems I'll have quite a while to hit swap meets and such and watch for deals on the very few instruments I really want on board. I already picked up a really nice looking Westach quad gauge -- oil temp & pressure, CHT and EGT, I think it is. Or maybe some other combination, I'm too lazy to go look right now. Anyway, I'm watching for good deals on decent quality used instruments that either look close to new, or can be restored to like-new appearance. I think I'll probably be looking to install something that looks like it belongs in the airplane

Personally, I would not fly with a tablet based system fed data over a BT or wifi connection. Too fiddly. Too unreliable. I want to know that when I roll up the hangar door, the airplane is going to be ready to fly. No worry about dead tablet battery, USB charger flaked out, software needs an update, any of that cr@p. I deal with that kind of thing all day long, when it's time to fly I just want to bloody well go fly. And it's not like it's going to get you out of the wiring and panel building... you'll still need at least some rudimentary engine instrumentation, and (if you have an engine driven electrical system) a radio and transponder.

What are you planning to use for your Pietenpower? :)

[Bradley Coleman]

I'm kind of torn on my Celebrity build. Part of me likes the ridiculous ease of installing a single, light weight, shallow depth screen for everything. You get full engine instrumentation, all of it. Used EFIS panels are not terribly expensive, especially if you price out a few decent quality steam gauges.

On the other hand... it's a wood and fabric biplane! It really needs a more vintage looking panel, preferably independent of the electrical system. And since I'm only a few ribs in, it seems I'll have quite a while to hit swap meets and such and watch for deals on the very few instruments I really want on board. I already picked up a really nice looking Westach quad gauge -- oil temp & pressure, CHT and EGT, I think it is. Or maybe some other combination, I'm too lazy to go look right now. Anyway, I'm watching for good deals on decent quality used instruments that either look close to new, or can be restored to like-new appearance. I think I'll probably be looking to install something that looks like it belongs in the airplane

Personally, I would not fly with a tablet based system fed data over a BT or wifi connection. Too fiddly. Too unreliable. I want to know that when I roll up the hangar door, the airplane is going to be ready to fly. No worry about dead tablet battery, USB charger flaked out, software needs an update, any of that cr@p. I deal with that kind of thing all day long, when it's time to fly I just want to bloody well go fly. And it's not like it's going to get you out of the wiring and panel building... you'll still need at least some rudimentary engine instrumentation, and (if you have an engine driven electrical system) a radio and transponder.

What are you planning to use for your Pietenpower? :)



I haven't made a solid decision in that field yet. I'm just way too far from it. However, I think I'm interested in making a clash between vintage (like you're doing) and modern glass. I imagine this looking like: 'wooden dash with few normal gauges and then an EFIS in the center. while the rest of the cockpit environment will stay bare and simple'. Basically bringing a touch of modern tech. to a vintage cockpit. While I love the vintage planes in all of their simplicity (which is why I'm building a Piet.) I feel like I have the opportunity to show a different concept to the younger generation. I've always been an admirer of NASA and now SpaceX and their images of ingenuity and futuristic view. So in a way I'm chasing to combine the old and new through a Pietenpol!

[rwanttaja]

I haven't made a solid decision in that field yet. I'm just way too far from it. However, I think I'm interested in making a clash between vintage (like you're doing) and modern glass. I imagine this looking like: 'wooden dash with few normal gauges and then an EFIS in the center. while the rest of the cockpit environment will stay bare and simple'. Basically bringing a touch of modern tech. to a vintage cockpit. While I love the vintage planes in all of their simplicity (which is why I'm building a Piet.) I feel like I have the opportunity to show a different concept to the younger generation. I've always been an admirer of NASA and now SpaceX and their images of ingenuity and futuristic view. So in a way I'm chasing to combine the old and new through a Pietenpol!
A man after my own heart. I just completed a 40-year career in the Space industries, participating in the design, construction, testing, or operation of about 17 satellites and ~25 upper stage rockets. Most of the time while flying a 1930's throwback airplane on the weekends. :-)

The Pietenpol Facebook group recently posted a photo of a cover that fits over the instrument panel on the ground, and makes the panel look like a fancy EFIS system. You certainly could go the other way; build the tablet-based EFIS and have a more traditional-looking cover for it when you're parked at airshows.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209226594197589&set=gm.10154178625096627&type=3&theater

(edit: added Facebook link. Probably won't work for everyone)

Ron Wanttaja

[Dana]

I have to say I'm in the old school camp when it comes to open cockpit wood and fabric planes, steam gauges all the way (and yes, leather helmet and silk scarf!). That said, I do have a (wooden) cradle for my smartphone in my plane. The smartphone runs Avare, which I use for navigation and flight logging.

6239

For my new plane, I made a kneeboard specifically to hold a 7" tablet. I have to fly the plane 1000 miles to get it home, and don't want to deal with paper charts in an open cockpit. The larger tablet will just make it easier; dealing with an unfamiliar plane over unfamiliar territory I want to focus on the plane, not the navigation.

[Bradley Coleman]

A man after my own heart. I just completed a 40-year career in the Space industries, participating in the design, construction, testing, or operation of about 17 satellites and ~25 upper stage rockets. Most of the time while flying a 1930's throwback airplane on the weekends. :-)

The Pietenpol Facebook group recently posted a photo of a cover that fits over the instrument panel on the ground, and makes the panel look like a fancy EFIS system. You certainly could go the other way; build the tablet-based EFIS and have a more traditional-looking cover for it when you're parked at airshows.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209226594197589&set=gm.10154178625096627&type=3&theater

(edit: added Facebook link. Probably won't work for everyone)

Ron Wanttaja


That's too cool to hear. Yeah I just imagine the more traditional covering, over the modern technology just makes the theme seem a little more 'sneaky'. When I first came to WVU I studied landscape architecture and I was always fascinated by themes of the landscape taking back over the industrial setting, and thats kind of what I'm going for with the Piet. The classic taking overtaking the new.
I'm jealous of what've been able to do for the past 40 years! I hope the space industry really explodes forward! The future is only as far away as we want it to be!

[Bradley Coleman]

Yes! The cradle for the phone is a perfect example of what I'm talking about! However that look would be throughout the entire dash.
I have to say I'm in the old school camp when it comes to open cockpit wood and fabric planes, steam gauges all the way (and yes, leather helmet and silk scarf!). That said, I do have a (wooden) cradle for my smartphone in my plane. The smartphone runs Avare, which I use for navigation and flight logging.

6239

For my new plane, I made a kneeboard specifically to hold a 7" tablet. I have to fly the plane 1000 miles to get it home, and don't want to deal with paper charts in an open cockpit. The larger tablet will just make it easier; dealing with an unfamiliar plane over unfamiliar territory I want to focus on the plane, not the navigation.

[Frank Giger]

Some of the WWI replica guys make a little wooden cover to put over modern instruments when it's on the ground.

Personally, I'm thinking that I've got at least three instruments too many on my Nieuport 11 panel. I just don't look at tach, altimeter, or ASI in flight. I think I could dump the compass as well. I think the oil temp and oil pressure gauges would be plenty.

[cluttonfred]

I am not fond of the clashing look and would want to keep a vintage design looking vintage, but like Dana I am not averse to a little discreet technology on the side. An iPad Mini or a Android tablet on a kneeboard (with a real GPS receiver if needed, I have one of the little Bad Elf plug-in modules) is great for navigation and trip planning, but it stays with you, not the plane, and leaves the instrument panel uncluttered.

[rwanttaja]

Some of the WWI replica guys make a little wooden cover to put over modern instruments when it's on the ground.

Personally, I'm thinking that I've got at least three instruments too many on my Nieuport 11 panel. I just don't look at tach, altimeter, or ASI in flight. I think I could dump the compass as well. I think the oil temp and oil pressure gauges would be plenty.
Well, there is that pesky 91.205, but as someone pointed out recently, it specifies the required instruments for airplanes with STANDARD airworthiness. So unless your operating limitations require compliance with 91.205, you're probably off the hook. For a brand-new homebuilt, the DAR may balk at signing it off without the proper gauges, but seems to me one should be pretty free otherwise.

Like Frank, I wouldn't drop any tears or cry Mayday if the tachometer, altitimeter, or ASI went AWOL in flight. However, I have a bit of a different opinion about eliminating them entirely.

Since I'm a typical engineer and my engine has dual ignition, I'd probably keep the tach. It lets me do consistent runups, and to more-carefully track the differences in the mag drop. Since my airplane uses a $40 lawn-mower tach, this isn't a major impact.

Chef de Ciel Giger may fly from the hinterlands of the deep south, but my home airport is tucked under the Sea-Tac Class B. I need to keep an altimeter to keep from bumping into the bottom of the Class B airspace.

The only time I look at the compass is at Condition Inspection time, just to be sure the whiskey isn't too low and the deviation card is there. Otherwise, I've never used it.

Anyone with an open cockpit, wire bracing, and decent hearing can get by without an airspeed indicator. However, there is a matter of "calibration." I can handle my Fly Baby without an airspeed indicator because I've been flying them for almost 30 years. But someone brand-new to the airplane would need a conventional indicator until they were accustomed to doing it by ear.

One of the many post-retirement projects I've considered is a simplified EFIS. Use the Talon unit as a sensor, and use a small screen for a readout. Something like an older smart phone, with a ~2"x3" display. Make the display like the outdoor Time and Temperature displays...show the airspeed for two seconds, then display the altitude, then the RPM, etc. Use great big numbers so us old guys don't have to squint. Kinda like this:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/smart.gif
Play around with font, color, styles, etc. to help quickly differentiate the various pages.

I kind of like this because it reminds me of the displays on the Pan Am Space Clipper in 2001.....

You could even set it up so the "Idle" display is an airplane logo, or something...so it's not quite as obvious when the plane is just sitting at a Fly-In.

Ron Wanttaja

[cluttonfred]

One of the many post-retirement projects I've considered is a simplified EFIS. Use the Talon unit as a sensor, and use a small screen for a readout...

What is the Talon unit you mentioned? My Google Fu has failed me.

I am not sure about the display mode you suggest, as I think that the times that you really want and need those readings, like airspeed on final in gusty conditions, the few seconds delay until the page you want appears in the rotation will be disconcerting.

Over on homebuiltairplanes.com there have been a number of threads on homebuilt EFIS but the cheapest and simplest option I have found for airspeed/altimeter/GPS are the Arduino-based BlueFly (https://www.blueflyvario.com/) variometers and associated barometric/GPS shields from Australia linked by Bluetooth to a cheap phone or tablet.

For navigation, I am still intrigued by the Gipsi (http://www.gipsinavigation.com/) unit, a GPS without a screen that uses a voice synthesizer to read off basis GPS info (airspeed, altitude, heading, direction/distance to waypoint). For navigation, I don't think the rotation delay is an issue, and the voice system keeps you looking outside not at a screen. He also has Gipsi apps for Android (http://www.gipsiapps.com/) that present information very simply on a black background and actually include some of the voice-readout functionality if you choose it use it.

I like the idea of whiskey compass as mechanical backup but, of course, you have to already know where you are and where you want to go since the compass itself doesn't answer those questions.

[rwanttaja]

What is the Talon unit you mentioned? My Google Fu has failed me.
That's because I Fu'ed. Talos, not Talon.

http://www.talosavionics.com/aeolus-sense/


I am not sure about the display mode you suggest, as I think that the times that you really want and need those readings, like airspeed on final in gusty conditions, the few seconds delay until the page you want appears in the rotation will be disconcerting.

It's basically to cover the notional requirement for an airspeed indicator. My contention is that, with experience, one can aurally manage airspeed on an open-cockpit aircraft. And as far as gusty conditions, managing airspeed by ear doesn't have the lag that mecho/baro gauges have.


I like the idea of whiskey compass as mechanical backup but, of course, you have to already know where you are and where you want to go since the compass itself doesn't answer those questions.

I don't think I've actually used a magnetic compass since my flight training days. These days, I'm either IFR (I Follow Roads) or use the Kilowatt Compass (power lines) or navigate by volcanos (a side benefit of flying in Western Washington).
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/pix/N500F.GIF

I will grant that the traditional whiskey compass is light and cheap enough to have no major objection to including one. Plus, you don't have to run power to it.

Ron Wanttaja

[DaleB]

I don't think I've actually used a magnetic compass since my flight training days. These days, I'm either IFR (I Follow Roads) or use the Kilowatt Compass (power lines) or navigate by volcanos (a side benefit of flying in Western Washington).
We don't have a whole lot of volcanoes around Nebraska, or really anything else that sticks up and is good for orientation. And yet... I have not used a whiskey compass since I was a student pilot either. I haven't used a paper chart since I stopped flying the club plane, which had a panel from the late 70s. Any time I leave the immediate area I've got the Garmin 496 in the plane, and usually my tablet running Avare as well. In a pinch I've got an iPhone that knows where I am. Even if there is a GPS outage (pretty much unheard of around here) I've still got charts on the tablet so I could find my way to where I'm going. I don't want to be dependent on GPS... but buying paper charts "just in case" is a waste of money and trees.

I'll probably go ahead and put a compass in the biplane, because as you noted they're cheap and don't affect panel space, power or weight much. My plan is for very basic instruments -- ASI, altimeter, compass, slip ball, tach. The Westach quad I have has oil pressure, oil temp, EGT & CHT. The gas gauge will likely be mechanical, either one of those nifty side-reading spiral action fuel gauges (like this (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/spiralfuel.php)) or a sight tube. I'll put the tablet on a knee board if I'm going somewhere cross country. I'll just have to fight the urge for a moving map EFIS and 3-axis autopilot. :) I will have to find a way to slip an espresso maker into the panel, though. One must keep one's priorities straight.

But an EFIS would look as out of place as white tube socks with sandals, in my humble opinion.

[cluttonfred]

I will have to find a way to slip an espresso maker into the panel, though. One must keep one's priorities straight.

I like the way you think! How about a minibar that folds out from the baggage compartment? Accessible only on the ground, naturally....

[rwanttaja]

I like the way you think! How about a minibar that folds out from the baggage compartment? Accessible only on the ground, naturally....
There's always Bruno Stachel's solution.....

Ron "Read the Book" Wanttaja

[DaleB]

And of course, one cannot forget...

6240

[Frank Giger]

:)

I'm not suggesting you leave off instruments (I have 'em), but after much monkeying around I determined that my ASI is just wrong, reading 10 MPH faster than actual. I've decided to just accept it and move on with my life.

I actually use my compass from time to time, as I have an area of restricted airspace in my footprint (Anniston Army Depot), and it's not obvious from the air exactly where it's at. So I work from a known point and deviate around it on heading.

And the extra cost of a vertical card compass is definitely worth it, and I would recommend one without reservation.

Also, a confession - I have a little android tablet running iFly on it to ensure I stay straight in where I am....paper sectionals in an open cockpit are fine (yeah, I carry one, too) until one finds they have to adjust it. Flying slow has its own navigational challenges, known as "Am I there yet?" syndrome. It's easy to overstate one's position along a track.

One of my EAA brothers built a Bearhawk with a really high speed glass panel in it, and has found that it's actually too much information for what he needs and is digging into the books to see how to unclutter it and show just the basics.