ATC privatization

[saber25]

Ms. Chao has been appointed Transportation Secretary. She is in the corner with the big boys and favors ATC privatization. This has been an issue for us in GA and occasionally comes up in AOPA concerns.

Can any of you north of the border tell us what privatization would mean to us down here in the lower 48 as to cost, inconvenience and so on. Having read some comments posted elsewhere it's not a rosy picture and something to be avoided.

Cheers, Hans

[rv8bldr]

Ms. Chao has been appointed Transportation Secretary. She is in the corner with the big boys and favors ATC privatization. This has been an issue for us in GA and occasionally comes up in AOPA concerns.

Can any of you north of the border tell us what privatization would mean to us down here in the lower 48 as to cost, inconvenience and so on. Having read some comments posted elsewhere it's not a rosy picture and something to be avoided.

Cheers, Hans
I pay $70/year. That's it. There are a few airports in Canada where they charge a landing fee, but those are generally the big ones, and normally it is around $15. The only time I've paid it is flying into the airport on Toronto Island.




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[Bill Berson]

Privatization and user fees are two seperate issues. The government could pay efficient corporations to run the systems without imposing a user fee.

Or, the government could keep ownership and impose a user fee. The first option is best, I think, because the government already collects fuel tax.

[saber25]

RV8buildr, thanks for your input. Based on what I read here http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/316943-trump-should-seize-aviation-opportunity and if you read the second comment letter, it sounds like a burdensome system adding to our flight costs without any benefits. I know the EAA has not been a proponent of the concept nor has AOPA.


Cheers, Hans

[1600vw]

The state of Illinois charges a user fee to use their airspace. When Annette the lady from the state contacted me about this fee, this is what she said it was. A tax to use the airspace in Illinois. They find you when you land and purchase fuel. This was how they got my info. When I told a fellow aviator about this he told me...This is why when you need fuel you look around and use another N number from a plane sitting on the tarmac.

Tony

[martymayes]

...This is why when you need fuel you look around and use another N number from a plane sitting on the tarmac.


lol, great strategy! The state of Illinois does not own the airspace and can not charge to use it. She probably meant something else, I'd sure like to be on the other end of her phone call....

[martymayes]

Nothing says they have to follow the Transport Canada model.
I'd gladly pay for part I use, just don't force me to participate in services I don't need or want then make me pay for it.

[Mayhemxpc]

The state of Illinois charges a user fee to use their airspace. When Annette the lady from the state contacted me about this fee, this is what she said it was. A tax to use the airspace in Illinois. They find you when you land and purchase fuel. This was how they got my info. When I told a fellow aviator about this he told me...This is why when you need fuel you look around and use another N number from a plane sitting on the tarmac.

Tony

This is strange. I have flown in and out of Illinois quite a bit over my adult life. Other than airport ramp fees at bigger airports (e.g., MDW and PIA) I have never been assessed a fee from Illinois or contacted by anyone from the State government for such a fee. When did this start?

I also agree with Marty in that the State of IL has no authority to charge for the use of "their" airspace. It is not theirs. I also imagine that it would be a matter of a state regulating interstate commerce.

Update: I just finished searching the web, to include AOPA information, Illinois Department of Transportation/Aeronautics Division, and reading through the Illinois Aviation Act. I could find no reference to such a fee. That said...I do know that IL, and other states, will look N numbers on the ramp to see if the aircraft is required to pay IL aircraft registration fees. Maybe they also use fuel receipts for that purpose.

[Bill Greenwood]

A state might have the authority to have tax on using a state airport, thus a fee when you land, just like our county and many airports have a landing fee. I doubt if they have a fee for using the air over the state, and no way they could collect that if you are only in the air. I think the lady said it wrong. Couple of folks on tv been doing that lately,

[L16 Pilot]

I'm sure if they could find a way to tax you for flying through "their airspace" they would but most airports have their landing fee (such as it is) built into their fuel flowage surcharge or some like fee.

[1600vw]

From what Annette told me, at one time the state of Illinois gave out stickers when you paid this fee. This sticker had to be put on the windshield of your airplane. Now she said they do not do this, you just pay this fee. I am sure others on this forum who live in Illinois can give more detail about this user tax. From my understanding or from what Annette said, this tax is only charged to those who live in the state of Illinois. I flew into a small fly-in and purchased one gallon of fuel. I had to enter an N number to purchase this fuel. These records are then given to the state. The State then goes over every transaction and make sure all taxes have been paid by all N numbers entered. Annette explained this to me on how she came to have my info in her hand. She said I did not pay my 20 dollar use tax for this airplane. I believe I kept these e-mails. I will post some of these e-mails if I did indeed safe them.

I should mention that this happened about one year ago.

Tony

[rwanttaja]

From what Annette told me, at one time the state of Illinois gave out stickers when you paid this fee. This sticker had to be put on the windshield of your airplane. Now she said they do not do this, you just pay this fee. I am sure others on this forum who live in Illinois can give more detail about this user tax. From my understanding or from what Annette said, this tax is only charged to those who live in the state of Illinois. I flew into a small fly-in and purchased one gallon of fuel. I had to enter an N number to purchase this fuel. These records are then given to the state. The State then goes over every transaction and make sure all taxes have been paid by all N numbers entered. Annette explained this to me on how she came to have my info in her hand. She said I did not pay my 20 dollar use tax for this airplane. I believe I kept these e-mails. I will post some of these e-mails if I did indeed safe them.
This is similar to Washington state, though some of the terms are used differently. For as long as I've been flying here, Washington has annual registration fees which "go directly to support...Aviation’s airport preservation, maintenance and improvement programs, education outreach, and air search and rescue operations." The actual fee starts at $35/year for homebuilts, balloons, and sailplanes, jumps to $65 for production-type single-engine aircraft, with a maximum of $140/year for turbojets. You can have your plane in-state for up to 90 days a year before the fees are expected to be paid.

Like Tony's case, we used to receive a sticker for the airplane, but they quit that several years back. In the past, State Police would occasionally canvass airports to find airplanes without the stickers. Suspect they just enter N-Numbers into a computer, now. If you are liable for the fee and don't pay, the fine is up to $400.

All of the local self-service avgas pumps require entry of an N-Number, but, shoot, the guy who owns "N12345" probably owes a lot of taxes.

Washington State also has a "Use Tax" for aircraft owners, but it's different from the one Tony mentions. To register a new or recently-purchased airplane in Washington State, you have to pay the equivalent in sales tax. Can be directly as sales tax, in the case of a commercial sale, otherwise, it's based on the value of the aircraft. Fun n' games with a homebuilt, of course, because there are no price guides for the tax people to use to check the declared value. Known guys who have had to sit in a chair in the tax office and answer a series of questions like, "Is it like a Cessna 175? Is it like a Cessna 177? Is it like a Cessna 180?..."

Aircraft Builders do get a break in that any sales tax on materials purchased in-state can be deducted from the use tax. Just hope they never look as to why you needed $2,000 worth of sheet rock for your Pietenpol.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[MEdwards]

This was discussed at length on the AOPA board in December. One guy had the gall to derail the misinformation by actually looking up the Illinois law. It is a registration requirement and it exempts non-residents of the state. From a post of that discussion:

(620 ILCS 5/44) (from Ch. 15 1/2, par. 22.44)
Sec. 44. Exceptions to registration requirements.) The provisions of paragraph (1) of Section 42 and Section 43 shall not apply to:
(1) An aircraft which has been licensed by a foreign country with which the United States has a reciprocal agreement covering the operations of such licensed aircraft;
(2) An aircraft which is owned by a nonresident of the State who is lawfully entitled to operate such aircraft in the state of his residence;
(3) An aircraft engaged principally in commercial flying constituting an act of interstate or foreign commerce, and an aircraft while being transported to and from, or while in the possession of, or while being demonstrated to a bona fide prospective purchaser by a bona fide manufacturer, distributor or dealer in aircraft;
(4) An airman operating military or public aircraft, or any aircraft licensed by a foreign county with which the United States has a reciprocal agreement covering the operation of such licensed aircraft;
(5) Persons operating model aircraft nor to any person piloting an aircraft which is equipped with fully functioning dual controls when an instructor is in full charge of one set of controls and such flight is solely for instruction or for the demonstration of the aircraft to a bona fide prospective purchaser;
(6) A non-resident operating aircraft in this State who is lawfully entitled to operate aircraft in the state of his residence;
(7) An airman while operating or taking part in the operation of an aircraft engaged principally in commercial flying constituting an act of interstate or foreign commerce;
(8) An aircraft registered and regulated by the Illinois Aeronautics Board.
(Source: P.A. 79-333.)

[Mayhemxpc]

Yes, t sounds like "Annette" was confused between the registration fee for aircraft based in IL and an "airspace" user fee. VA also has a registration fee, under much the same provisions as IL, but I think ours is $5. You get a sticker, which is supposed to go on the airplane near the horizontal stabilizer. The advantage to doing this s that when police do ramp checks they can see that the plane is registered in another state and you won't get questioned. Using fuel entries probably won't help there. Antique and Warbirds with historical paint are exempt from displaying the sticker. In that case it has to be kept with the registration. When I was stationed in Kentucky on active duty, my home of record was IL. I used that (legally) to keep the plane registered in IL. $20 fee for IL was a lot better than paying the ANNUAL "movable property" tax in KY.

[martymayes]

Yes, t sounds like "Annette" was confused.

Yup

[1600vw]

My wife reminded me that this came snail mail.

[Floatsflyer]

Can any of you north of the border tell us what privatization would mean to us down here in the lower 48 as to cost, inconvenience and so on. Having read some comments posted elsewhere it's not a rosy picture and something to be avoided.

Cheers, Hans

I can only provide you with my experience with the privatization of Canada's air navigation system by Nav Canada. That experience is a big fat zero directly or non-directly. Nav Canada has had zero impact on me positively or negatively in the 20 years it has owned and operated Canada's air navigation system. My communications with ATC and FSS remain as they had prior to 1996. My direct aviation dealings are still only with DOT for licensing(aircraft and personnel)and medicals. My recollection is that the transfer from government to private sector operation was quite seemless for GA. I'm assuming the payment of $70 by rv8bldr is for the CFS publication yearly subscription. I no longer pay that since I subscribe to Foreflight which of course has it's own cost. I have never paid any other money to Nav Canada.

What you need to know is that Nav Canada is run as a not-for-profit private corporation. It's financed by publicly traded debt and the money it charges aircraft operators and carriers. As a not-for-profit it offers no shares and has no shareholders. The corporate structure is a BOD repped by the 4 stakeholder groups that originally created it--air carriers; GA and BA; federal government; and unions- and bought it from the Canadian government.

Based on US corporate history-take overs and otherwise-if the FAA is privatized, a giant publicly traded conglomerate or investment banker(US or not) will buy it for mega zillions and it will NOT likely be run as a not-for-profit. If such a purchase was to occur, it will be far more malevolent and IMO, you as private pilots and air carrier passengers will pay a huge price for it in the name of creating value for the stockholders. No matter your opinion of the FAA, you should probably all hope privatization doesn't happen.

[saber25]

Thanks Floatsflyer for that response. I received an answer from a New Zealander on another forum and he is paying a tidy sum for the freedom to fly. If the eventual path here is towards privatization and additional user fees, I'm sure the ADS-B Nextgen mandate will go a long way in providing a seamless path for collection of fees. Maybe I'm overthinking this but fear that the free in freedom will be replaced by another kingdom.

[mmarien]

I agree with rv8bldr. I register the number of hours I fly each year for each plane and get charged a fee. I think it's $70 per plane. Couldn't be simpler.

[JohnSBA]

If the eventual path here is towards privatization and additional user fees That is highly likely, imo. At least the FAA is accountable and (glacially) responsive to citizens unlike our telco, internet, broadcast and other mega-corporations (and they have some semblance of competition). From my own occasional flying in Canada, I find the costs and services there to be much higher. I much prefer FAA charts, the fact I can fly VFR without flight plan (required, and charged for even though no or minimal services are provided, when I fly in Canada), and the absence of FAA fees for most services like the freedom provided by Flight Following. After a flight to Canada, I routinely get bills for several months on assorted things like landings, parking, and ATC. All this from the relatively well-implemented non-profit in Canada, a much smaller country with less GA. Speaking of the charts, the excellent free open source Avare aviation GPS app and several others use free FAA charts, which are only available (at hefty fees) to one or two companies from NavCanada. Please join EAA & AOPA and do all you can to resist privatization of the FAA!

[martymayes]

Might be a good dea to wait and see what's proposed becore jumping on the "anti" bandwagon

[rwanttaja]

Might be a good dea to wait and see what's proposed becore jumping on the "anti" bandwagon
But...but...that's un-American! :-)

Ron "I'm agin' it....nah, I'm fer it" Wanttaja

[martymayes]

I know....we need to pass this law so we can find out what's in it!

[mmarien]

From my own occasional flying in Canada, I find the costs and services there to be much higher. I much prefer FAA charts, the fact I can fly VFR without flight plan (required, and charged for even though no or minimal services are provided, when I fly in Canada), and the absence of FAA fees for most services like the freedom provided by Flight Following. After a flight to Canada, I routinely get bills for several months on assorted things like landings, parking, and ATC. All this from the relatively well-implemented non-profit in Canada, a much smaller country with less GA. Speaking of the charts, the excellent free open source Avare aviation GPS app and several others use free FAA charts, which are only available (at hefty fees) to one or two companies from NavCanada. Please join EAA & AOPA and do all you can to resist privatization of the FAA! I feel for your expensive experience crossing into Canadian Airspace. To keep the misinformation to a minimum, flight plans are required both ways across the border. There is no charge for flight plans. I cross the border a few times a year to visit my brother in Georgia and file a flight plan every time I cross the border. Never get charged either way. In addition to a flight plan, I have to register my passenger manifest with eAPIS, obtain a US xponder code, purchase a DTOPS decal, and contact CBP to request permission to land prior to flying to the US. Coming back to Canada they just ask me to contact Canadian Customs. No requesting permission, filing manifests, etc. It seems that there is a lot more freedom going one way than the other. Check the AOPA border crossing guide. I have nearly a thousand VFR flights over the past few years. From the Atlantic to the Pacific in both Canada and the US. I can't remember filing a flight plan in either country other than to cross the border. In the US I pay parking fees just like here in Canada depending on the FBO I park at. There are a few larger Canadian airports that charge GA landing fees. You can avoid them with proper flight planning. In the US they just tell me to stay out of their BRAVO airspace. I've been offered flight following in Canada as well as the US. We don't call it flight following but ATC will offer their services or request that we stay on their frequency when traffic dictates it. I use ForeFlight. It has both Canadian VNC charts and US VFR sectionals plus all the other good stuff. Same price for either. Twice the price for both. The Canadian charts aren't quite as colorful as the US sectionals but I like them both. As far as freedom (money wise) to fly, I can't imagine the taxes it takes to keep FAA afloat. Every President since Regan has been trying to dump FAA. Here in Canada I pay a $68 yearly fee to use NAV Canada's services. If you have been charged a fee to fly in Canadian airspace I thank you for helping keeping NAV Canada afloat. Just so you know, it's a non profit corporation, so you probably haven't been over charged. Here is a guide to the fees you have been charged: http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Publications/Customer-Guide-Charges-EN.pdf

[Floatsflyer]

I feel for your expensive experience crossing into Canadian Airspace. To keep the misinformation to a minimum, flight plans are required both ways across the border. There is no charge for flight plans. I cross the border a few times a year to visit my brother in Georgia and file a flight plan every time I cross the border. Never get charged either way. In addition to a flight plan, I have to register my passenger manifest with eAPIS, obtain a US xponder code, purchase a DTOPS decal, and contact CBP to request permission to land prior to flying to the US. Coming back to Canada they just ask me to contact Canadian Customs. No requesting permission, filing manifests, etc. It seems that there is a lot more freedom going one way than the other. Check the AOPA border crossing guide. I have nearly a thousand VFR flights over the past few years. From the Atlantic to the Pacific in both Canada and the US. I can't remember filing a flight plan in either country other than to cross the border. In the US I pay parking fees just like here in Canada depending on the FBO I park at. There are a few larger Canadian airports that charge GA landing fees. You can avoid them with proper flight planning. In the US they just tell me to stay out of their BRAVO airspace. I've been offered flight following in Canada as well as the US. We don't call it flight following but ATC will offer their services or request that we stay on their frequency when traffic dictates it. I use ForeFlight. It has both Canadian VNC charts and US VFR sectionals plus all the other good stuff. Same price for either. Twice the price for both. The Canadian charts aren't quite as colorful as the US sectionals but I like them both. As far as freedom (money wise) to fly, I can't imagine the taxes it takes to keep FAA afloat. Every President since Regan has been trying to dump FAA. Here in Canada I pay a $68 yearly fee to use NAV Canada's services. If you have been charged a fee to fly in Canadian airspace I thank you for helping keeping NAV Canada afloat. Just so you know, it's a non profit corporation, so you probably haven't been over charged. Here is a guide to the fees you have been charged: http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Publications/Customer-Guide-Charges-EN.pdf

Bravo, Bravo! to you mmarien regarding John SBA post. Seems that AFD(Alternative Facts Disorder) has crept into GA for some. Why? What's the point? Disinformation in flying can be treacherous and deadly. We don't need any fart catchers here.

As a fellow Canadian border crosser, flying into the US is far more onerous, complex, time consuming and freedom reducing than flying into Canada. If you still don't believe that, meet me at a pre-determined place at Oshkosh and I'll show you all the paperwork. I'll also show you a video of customs officers doing a walk-a-round of the airplane with a yellow handheld gigercounter.

[WLIU]

The management of the border crossings by US Customs is completely unrelated to anything to do with ATC. The Canada airport of entry have been more welcoming for years and years. The US side has always been something of a pain, although it has actually gotten better.

ATC funding - We already pay fuel taxes. ATC already has a funding stream. The problem is that the FAA is tired of begging our legislators for their budget and the legislators would like to keep the fuel taxes to spend on other programs. Changing the income stream to add fees for ATC just makes the costs of aviating go up. If you think that the fuel taxes will go down as part of offsetting the new fees I have some swampy land in central Florida to sell you. The ATC privatization does not pass the cost-benefit test for GA.

Some folks might remember the recent political battles over US healthcare. The "penalty" for not buying the mandatory healthcare was ruled a tax by the US Supreme Court. Private ATC is the same thing - a new tax.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS (formerly C-GTBE)

[raytoews]

Some yrs ago I flew into Bonneville airport and they started sending me bills for landing. I bought $100 worth of gas.
A yr or so later I was in a meeting with the mayor and commented, I drove thru town last yr on my motorcycle and bought $6 worth of gas. When I landed at your airport you charge me for using the Facility?
They stopped sending the bill.
I have never paid a landing fee and never will. As a private operator I never will.
They can kiss my spinner.

[raytoews]

I pay the same fee for my Cheetah. I thought it was $45 but I probably went up.
I don't pay it for my Zenair. Ultralight don't have to pay. Apparently we don't talk on the radio as much or file flight plans. Same air though.
What the hell do I pay taxes for?