Airlines Now

[Bill Greenwood]

Many of us travel by airlines, when not flying our planes. The airlines have some big advantages, first of all they are safer. U S major airlines have not had a single passenger fatalitiy in six years. Thats extraordinary, especially in view of the millions of people and millions of miles flown and private gen aviation doesnt have that record, nor does other forms of transportation. The are deaths on subways, trains, buses, even cruise ships and ferries, carnival rides. etc, and thousands of driving accidents.
The other big advantage is weather flying, if you need to be on a schedule, the airline can and will go in most weather, when light gen av flying might not. Bad weather flying is one area where gen av accidents occur. And sometimes with bad imc or turbulence, it is easier to ride than fly. This is particularly true if you have to go a long distance or overseas. Not too many folks fly their Cessna to Hawaii or Europe.
On some routes the airline can be cheaper than flying our plane. Where a private plane can be cost effective is if you have several people where airlines would charge for each.
Funwise, the reverse is true. There was a time when airline travel emphsized customer experience but not now. Its like comparing a dounut to a bagel. Both have flour, but only one is sweet.And private flyihg is more flexible if you have time to do so.
The new issue of Consumer reports rates airlines. Jet Blue and Southwest at top of budget ones. and Virgin and Alaska for luxury ones.. I dont like Jet Blue for their holding passenger hostage for hours on the tarmac a few years back. It took a passenger revolt to get a law passed to stop that.
The article also points out how seat size and comfort has shrunk over the years, even though people havent.
Many EAA members are also airline pilots, I have freinds at Delta, SW, and United.

[Floatsflyer]

Once you're on the aluminum tube, it's OK except there is no longer any service. However, from the time you go through the airport front doors to the time you actually board, you feel oppressed and suffer an ordeal. Having to fly airlines now is not fun, it's just a necessity.

I had 2 neighbours who flew for Air Canada, captains on a A320 and a cargo 747. The one on the cargo 747 said he loved it so much more than flying passengers. When I asked him why, he replied, "cargo doesn't talk or complain."

Bill, I guess you've never had a raisin bagel...pretty sweet.

[martymayes]

I dont like Jet Blue for their holding passenger hostage for hours on the tarmac a few years back. It took a passenger revolt to get a law passed to stop that.

Not sure what has been stopped. About $6 mil in fines has been assessed for DOT +3 hr violations since the rule went into effect. Jet Blue is the least likely to take a DOT delay fine so that's your best bet to avoid a 3+ hr delay.
Like most knee jerk bureaucratic rules, an unintended consequence is that there are more delays and cancellations. Not going to be stuck on a plane for 3 hrs cause they'll just cancel and let people sleep in the airport, which to many is much worse than the delay. Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot.

[rwanttaja]

The problem is not that airline service is so bad, the problem is that the majority of travelers buy their tickets solely based on price. If you're willing to pay for it, airline travel can be pretty pleasant... no baggage or checked luggage fees, free drinks, a meal, wide, comfortable seats, plenty of legroom.

But, most people want the trip as absolutely cheap as they can get it. Then complain about having to pay to check luggage, or fight for overhead compartment space, or getting only a little pack of pretzels to eat, crammed in six abreast with your knees jammed under your armpits. But, oh, my, they SAVED a couple of bucks, didn't they?

Ron Wanttaja

[Frank Giger]

Ron, I wouldn't mind any of that sardine treatment except for one thing:

Passengers now dress better for a quick trip to Walmart than they do a five hour trip in an airplane. Hell, people dress nicer on Greyhound buses than they do for a Delta flight.

I'm not saying that we should go back to the days of wearing our Sunday best on aircraft, but maybe shirts with sleeves isn't asking too much, is it? And clothes make the man, as it were. If one is dressed for a backyard BBQ/kegger, one tends to act like it.

And if the flight is more than three hours, springing for Business Class is more than worth the price.

[1600vw]

Ron, I wouldn't mind any of that sardine treatment except for one thing:

Passengers now dress better for a quick trip to Walmart than they do a five hour trip in an airplane. Hell, people dress nicer on Greyhound buses than they do for a Delta flight.

I'm not saying that we should go back to the days of wearing our Sunday best on aircraft, but maybe shirts with sleeves isn't asking too much, is it? And clothes make the man, as it were. If one is dressed for a backyard BBQ/kegger, one tends to act like it.

And if the flight is more than three hours, springing for Business Class is more than worth the price.

May I ask...when was the last time you traveled Grayhound? A friend did this not long ago. He is a member here but he will never post. Anyway he told me never again will he travel by bus. He said there was no way he was shutting his eye's the complete trip. He said it was one of the scariest trips he has made. Back in the 60's my mom stuck me on one of those buses at the age of 6 for a 600 mile trip. Today if you did this the child would be gone.

Tony

[PaulDow]

The problem is not that airline service is so bad, the problem is that the majority of travelers buy their tickets solely based on price. If you're willing to pay for it, airline travel can be pretty pleasant...
Remember Midwest Express airline? 2 X 2 seating on MD-80 planes, real meals and flight attendants who really liked their jobs. It was a fantastic way to fly. I took them to Milwaukee a few times. I was so impressed that I bought some stock. I figured who would want to fly any other way since the fare was only about $15 more than their competitors. Their annual report financial statement even separated how much they spent on catering so they could brag about their service.

Then the internet come along. It pushed their fare down the screen. They had to change most, and then all, of their flights to lower service which didn't differentiate them from any other airline. With their limited routes they couldn't compete. They were acquired by Northwest (who lost a lot of money on the deal) and then Republic.

The race to the bottom has been going on for a while.

Edit: How could I forget? Baked onboard cookies too!

[DaleB]

Midwest Express was the best. I used them whenever I could, and miss them. I've looked at better seats -- maybe they are "a little" more expensive on some flights, but it seems like every time I get tempted I find the cost difference is staggering. The last time I checked on a long flight, say Chicago to Frankfurt, business class seats went for roughly 5x the cost of coach.

Besides... I figure after getting treated like mentally retarded criminals at the airport, why not complete the experience?

[Bill Greenwood]

Marty, before the ruling came in that airlines had to give passengers food and water after 2hours sitting and fines after 3 hours, some airlines, think Jet Blue was the first,worst held people on planes for as much as 8 or 9 hours. It wasnt a case of a couple of hours delaly vs cancelling a flight. Often after virtually kidnapping people for 8 or 9 hours, refusing to give them any choice or chance to get off, without food and water, or even working toilets. then the flight would be cancelled in the end, sometimes the crew would have to be replaced due to timeing out.
The airlines had lots of ecuses on why they could not treat people with common courtesy, including old people and babies, but it took the power of $25,000 fines per passenger to give them a conscience. On one of these flights the pilot was even on the side of the passengers but the airline told him not to taxi back.
Can you think of any other business that claims they had the right to hold people hostage? Do you think hotel guest would be ok with being stuck in an elevator all night or that a subway car could refuse to open the doors at a station or a taxicab be able to lock passengers inside overninght if traffic was backed up. If a football game had a weather delaly in starting could the stadium lock people inside or a concert where the band is hours late refuse to let people leave?
One airline, may have been United, not sure, held people locked inside for 8 hurs at Austin, for a flight to Dallas which is a half hour flight, or a 3 hour drive in a rental car or maybe on the bus. I think the lady who finally went to Congress and got the law passed was on that flight. The airlines were great at excuses such as not enough gates, but the $25,000 fine per passenger certainly improved their ability to find a gate.
That nonsense is pretty much in the past now, and one longer than 3 hours would be rare today.

[Bill Greenwood]

I recently had an airline flight, and was surprised at how easy and almost human TSA was, not the usual hassle. Maybe that was a laid back California type attitude?

[DaleB]

I recently had an airline flight, and was surprised at how easy and almost human TSA was, not the usual hassle.
I'm sure those TSA workers have been discovered and fired by now.

[martymayes]

Bill I did a flight just a few weeks ago where we could have been airborne in 3 hrs and 5 min. To avoid risking a DOT +3 hr rule violation, we had to return to gate, give pax a "de-boarding opportunity" then continue which took another 55 min. Now, I'm not that good with math but it seems to me 3:05 delay is less than 4:00 delay. The extra delay was unintended consequence of the rule.

[Frank Giger]

I recently had an airline flight, and was surprised at how easy and almost human TSA was, not the usual hassle. Maybe that was a laid back California type attitude?

It's airport by airport, and even time of day.

At Atlanta one is just another cow through the chute, and any wrinkle is met with annoyance.

At Birmingham it's smiles and waves.

At Las Vegas it's a mix of both - though I'm sure they make sure that people don't get too pissed off coming or leaving there.

I'd take any rudeness from NYC, Chicago, etc., TSA folks as just being a product of their Yankee upbringing, where civility isn't a strong suit.

On Greyhound, it's always been scary as hell. I spent two days on a bus that seemed to be full of convicts just released from prison, people clearly running from something, and all manner of ne'er do wells back in the 1980's. But they all were wearing shoes, not flip flops and no socks at least.

Frank "I've f***ing been to f****ing New f****ing Jersey" Giger

[martymayes]

Can you think of any other business that claims they had the right to hold people

Apparently the cruise line ships can. In 2013 the carnival ship triumph stranded people in the GOM for ~70 hrs. Sewage back up and spilled onto the deck, no power or air conditioning.....doesn't seem the airlines are all that bad. And this has happened several times.

[Mayhemxpc]

I was on a United flight once to Geneva, I think. We were absolutely going to hit the three hour delay (weather) and the captain taxi'd us back. He said it would really just be a few more minutes but said he had to give anyone who wanted the chance to de-plance. I was in business and I could not care less. i had food, drink, and a nice reclining seat. I did feel bad for the people in "Economy", having suffered through similar there. Well the only person who insisted on getting off was the guy sitting next to me! He also wanted a different flight, which meant that everyone had to wait while the airline found his bag in the hold and unloaded it. Flight attendants were not happy. We weren't either, of course. An hour later we were able to take off. Fast forward eight hours, now on the ground in Geneva. FA comes up to me with a very nice sport jacket. Not mine, I say. Must belong to him -- pointing to the empty seat next to me. The smile on her face when she realized that the guy was in such a self-centered rush that he forgot his expensive jacket almost made the delay worthwhile. (Almost.)

[martymayes]

Correct! The 3 hr rule does nothing but cause additional delay. Sure, they meant well but knee-jerk rules are rarely well thought out.

[Bill Greenwood]

You know, an airline that has to squeeze to operate so that they only hold passengers on the airplane for 3 hours before begining the actual flight is not doing a very good job of planning. And the idea that the capitian says it is "only going to be a few more minutes" is probably, " alternate facts" to use a term in fashion these days instead of just saying Bulls..t. This ariline and this captain could not get off the ground in 3 hours, and now they want you to believe they know for sure that it will only be a few more minutes? The govt doesnt have to fine an airline, and if it left 10 min over the 3 hours proabably wouldnt.
How would you feel for instance if you had a reservation at top restarant for 8 pm, and you get there and they say, "our chef is not here, held up by weather on the road" and it will be few more minutes. And then at 11 pm, 3 hours later, the say once again it will only be a few more minutes. Are you willing to let them take advantage of you like that? Its only a few more minutes after only 3 hours wait!
What did P T Barnum say about a sucker?Would you be satisified if it took only 3 hours to go through TSA and then they told you it would be "only a few more minutes"? how about waiting 3 hours plus at baggage claim or on the curb for a taxi?
And as for as a flgiht to Genwva, the rule ,in orignal form didnt apply to overseas flights for 3 hours it may now.
There of course can be weather delays. but weather doesnt often go from CAVU to blizzard or hurricane without some notice that can be planned for.

[Mayhemxpc]

It does apply to overseas flights. The real challenge there is how it affects crew duty days. Yes, everyone knew about the weather closing in. We pulled out of the gate early to try to get out ahead of it. We got out, then had to wait. Shut down one engine, then to the holding box and shit down the other. With regard to whether it would have been only a few more minutes, I think he was telling the truth. The Capt was very good about keeping us informed at frequent intervals. I was also tracking weather and departures on flight aware and fore flight and listening in on cockpit comms (United has a feature for that on Channel 9 and many flight crew enable it even on the ground.) In fact, when we hit the 3 hour mark, planes were moving and being cleared for take-off. I can't remember our sequence but it was less than 20 when we had to go back. The moment that the passenger's bag was off and the cargo hatches shut we were cleared for push-back. So yes, I believe it would have been just a few more minutes.

I have been in delay situations where the airline was jerking us around, and I can tell the difference. My own experience, however, is that it is rarely the cockpit crew doing the jerking, but the gate agents. (In the spirit of full disclosure I come from an airline family and even flew as a regional first officer during my "mid-life crisis." Therefore, I may have a tendency to take the side of the flight deck in such things.)

[martymayes]

Swiss Air had a triple seven land at a remote Canadian airstrip last night and kept passengers on board for 12 hrs. Is this a planning failure?


Bill, how would one plan for "possible" meteorological events? If there is a 40% chance of a snow event in the NE corridor, cancel all flights? You won't be in business very long.

[jethro99]

The Air Lines - Where every customer is considered to be a criminal until he can prove his own innocence.

[L16 Pilot]

I can personally attest to sitting on the ground in (I believe) in Abilene, Texas having be diverted from DWF for bad weather. We left MSP on AA about 9:30 am but the weather must have developed while we were enroute, thus the diversion for fuel to Abilene. I think we got into DFW about 3:00 pm. We were not allowed to deplane but they did bring pizza and water so they tried to treat us right. Personally in regard to bad weather I'd rather they opt on the side of caution. I've had enough of rough rides over the years.

[Bill Greenwood]

Marty, two facts: Before the rule went into effect with possible fines of $25,000 per passenger for holding them on the tarmac for over 3 hours, the airlines didnt give much concern to passenger comfort or well being. Holding passengers, not just for 3 hours, but sometimes over 8 happened a number of times. The airlines put so much effort into blaming the weather etc, but not much into improving service.
Then came the rule with the $25,000 fines and that is per passenger. Suddenly and almost overnight the airlines found a way to plan better, to avoid fines of perhaps $4 milllion per flight. Nowadays it is rare to hold passengers hostage for hours. It is a shame that it took the threat of fines to force the airlines to do what they should have all along.
As for as an airilne going out of business, they dont get paid for flgiths that dont fly. If they take a plane full of passengers and sit on the tarmac for 8 hours, they owe another flight or a refund. Sitting out there didnt make the airline any money. just gave them a bad name.
We have always had weather problems that can affect flights, but you didint have these hostage situations untill fairly recent years, maybe due to airlines bunching at hubs, or taking advantage of calling a departure, "on time" just by taxi out time.
And the rule doesnt require the airlines to cancel any flight, If weather is bad or other delays, just let the passengers wait in the terminal where there is more comfort and choice, the rule only addresses holding them hostage inside the airplane.

[FlyingRon]

Actually, we've had some pretty good bus experiences of late. I lived out near Dulles Airport and visit NYC (got relatives there) periodically. We've got a bus that runs from a park and ride not too far from my house to NYC cheaper than I could think about even parking my car at the airport. Sit on a clean, comfortable bus with WIFI even and cool it for a few hours and I'm dropped off in Time Square. Certainly beats the commercial airlines time wise and I can't even get even do as well GA wise. The train wouldn't be bad, but I still have to get downtown in DC (parking is expensive and you can't leave the car at the Metro stations for an extended period).

[Bill Greenwood]

Chris Mayer, the pilot may not intend to deceive passengers, but he may not really know how long a delay will be, and he may not be the one to decide, rather it is dispatch or ATC, etc.
But the pilot is likely to try to put the best face on a situation.
When you went to Genva, did the pilot say. "Welcome folks, lets hurry up and board so that we can taxi out and sit for 3 hours" Not likley.
And origianlly this rule treated overseas fligthts differently, not sure about now..

[Floatsflyer]

Swiss Air had a triple seven land at a remote Canadian airstrip last night and kept passengers on board for 12 hrs. Is this a planning failure? .

No, it was an engine failure according to the reports I've read.

I would not like to be held on board a plane on the ground for 12 hours, that's mentally and physically torturous and inhumane treatment. Probably no food, not much to drink, bad air quality and the washrooms are backing up, inoperative and odious. Although Customs and Immigration is the reason for it( the plane was enroute to LA)surely common sense could have prevailed and an area of an airport building or heated hangar could have been used to deplane and house the passengers in a makeshift secure area. Swissair could then bring in food and drink and washroom facilities(permanent and portable) made available.

It's 2017. Despite our amazing technological advances, humanity's lack of proper, critical thinking and humane behaviour is truly astounding.

[martymayes]

Let's compare two industries:

Medical industry: Responsible for 300,000 deaths per yr. Break it down and 1/3 of those deaths, or about 100,000 are due to ingesting toxic drugs. Not drug abuse but medication taken exactly as prescribed by a Dr. ( I wonder if they even say oopsie?) Another 7000 die due to drug mixups. Oopsie. 22,000 die due to medical errors and mistakes. Oopsie again. This is not some freak event or catastrophe, it's business as usual in the medical industry.

Airline industry: Conducts 1000's of flights per day and over the course of a year transports millions of people. All of these people arrive at their destination as they choose. As mentioned earlier not a single death in 6 yrs. That is absolutely phenomenal. On occasion, severe weather events disrupt air travel. Some flights are delayed and/or cancelled and sometimes people get stuck on a plane for 2, 3, or maybe 4 hrs. A few hundred have been stranded for as long as 7 hrs on a plane. What's in the news headlines the next day?

AIRLINE HOLDS PASS HOSTAGE ON TARMAC FOR 7 HOURS!! TOILET OVERFLOWS!
The accompanying editorial says: Outrage! This is beyond human dignity! They should be heavily fined- possibly imprisoned for such shenanigans!



All I can say is OMG.

[Mayhemxpc]

When you went to Genva, did the pilot say. "Welcome folks, lets hurry up and board so that we can taxi out and sit for 3 hours" Not likley.
And origianlly this rule treated overseas fligthts differently, not sure about now..

Actually, he did say that we were pushing back to TRY to get ahead of the weather, so I wasn't too terribly surprised that we didn't make it -- and appreciated that he tried.

When ATC tells you that they expect release in a certain time and you know how many planes are ahead of you, then you can make a good guess, but that is all it is. I have been on three international flights where the three hour rule was in play. Only had to go back to the gate once. The important thing is communications. In two of the three times the captain was very communicative and reasonably forthcoming about what was really going on. I have had enough other things to complain about with the airlines not to fume over weather delays.

It was better than another time, running a mile and a half through Frankfurt terminal to get to a connecting flight before they closed the doors (I did it in about 12 minutes, in a suit and coat with carry on -- and included going through passport control) only to find out that the flight had been cancelled hours before -- in fact, before my flight left its originating station. And then I had the pleasure of the agents treating me like it was my fault I was stuck in Frankfurt!

[Mayhemxpc]

Actually, we've had some pretty good bus experiences of late. I lived out near Dulles Airport and visit NYC (got relatives there) periodically. We've got a bus that runs from a park and ride not too far from my house to NYC cheaper than I could think about even parking my car at the airport. Sit on a clean, comfortable bus with WIFI even and cool it for a few hours and I'm dropped off in Time Square. Certainly beats the commercial airlines time wise and I can't even get even do as well GA wise. The train wouldn't be bad, but I still have to get downtown in DC (parking is expensive and you can't leave the car at the Metro stations for an extended period).

Ron, I live in Manassas so I have the advantage of having an AMTRAK station only a few minutes away. (Parking is free for train passengers.) Going anywhere in the NE corridor is a no brainer. If I am not flying myself, I take the train. Cheaper than the airlines, more comfortable, more reliable, and as you point out -- you arrive downtown where you are going! Did I mention that all-in all, it is faster, too (especially on the Acela.) I have also heard great things about that shuttle bus -- especially the price and that it it is relatively comfortable.

[Floatsflyer]

Let's compare two industries:

Medical industry:

Airline industry:

AIRLINE HOLDS PASS HOSTAGE ON TARMAC FOR 7 HOURS!! TOILET OVERFLOWS!
The accompanying editorial says: Outrage! This is beyond human dignity! They should be heavily fined- possibly imprisoned for such shenanigans!

All I can say is OMG.

You can come up with as many unrelated comparatives as you like but none of them will diminish the awful experience of being confined to a very small space for a long period of time without the necessities of life. Next time you book a flight don't forget your depends.

[martymayes]

You can come up with as many unrelated comparatives as you like but none of them will diminish the awful experience of being confined to a very small space for a long period of time without the necessities of life. Next time you book a flight don't forget your depends.

I think its very related. I had a good friend who went in the hospital for a discectomy and left the hospital 3 days later dead. Can you show me an example of where the airlines have mistreated anyone to the point they died? Can you imagine the public outrage if that happened??

Floats, have you ever been stuck on a plane for more than 5 hrs? I have. Apparently all the necessities of life were provided because not only did I not die, I just didn't think it was that big a deal. I didn't get meal vouchers, hotel room vouchers or travel vouchers for later travel like everyone else and I'm still not complaining.

The odds of getting suck on a plane for an unreasonable amount of time is infinitesimal. Time to let it go.

[Gil]

For what it's worth, I just returned the day before yesterday from a trip to Saint Croix, USVI, via American Airlines. I was fortunate to have my first class passage paid for by a wealthy friend. The experience was so much more pleasant than sitting in coach, that I can easily understand why folks with the financial means will pay whatever it takes. I flew via Chicago and Miami and all the legs were on time and even a bit early on arrival.

[Bill Greenwood]

Marty, The media reports news, both good and bad, Blaming the media when you dont like the news is an old but not very valid tact.
For instance , Boeing had fires with the batteries on new planes, how should the media report that? Or cell phone fires? And what would you have them write the day after Titanic disaster, that the trip will be late?

I dont know your dispute with medicine, and certainly dont know the accuracy of your claimed figures, but that is not transportation and doesnt have anything to do with this airline topic.

The airlines have solved their main issue, that of safety, better than we'd expect. This other problm is minor comparativel, but dismissing it or trying to find a bigger problem to compare it to is not the way to look at it.

[Floatsflyer]

[QUOTE=martymayes;60746Floats, have you ever been stuck on a plane for more than 5 hrs? I have. I just didn't think it was that big a deal.

The odds of getting suck on a plane for an unreasonable amount of time is infinitesimal. Time to let it go.[/QUOTE]

When you dump your pants, maybe then you'll believe it's "that big a deal". Until then, you better try not to "let it go".