"Flyingron" Forced Landing

[rwanttaja]

Noticed on today's FAA accident summary that active user Flyingron's Navion had a forced landing in Virginia. Listed as one occupant, no injuries, no damage.

Ron Wanttaja

[Puertoricoflyer]

I sure hope he is OK. :eek:

[rwanttaja]

I sure hope he is OK. :eek:
The FAA prelim says no injuries. Says no damage, as well, but obviously there could be something that really got slammed. And, of course, there's the need to determine the root cause of the power loss.

Right now, don't know if Ron himself or his wife was flying. FAA report just says one person on board, and the N-Number traces to Ron.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Update from Ron on a different forum:

"Alas, it apparently wasn't over. I picked up the plane from the annual and was flying it home yesterday afternoon and about 15 south of Lynchburg, VA the engine let go. Put it down on the gear pretty nicely in a cow pasture, only airframe damage was where I hit a fence post on roll out. The engine looks trashed. Still waiting to hear from the FAA."

Made a live spot on the Evening News as a "breaking story" however. "

Ron had had a similar problem last month, when an exhaust valve let go. He landed at an airport that time. He had flown it home for an annual since that repair, this was the first post-annual flight.

Favorite quote: "Yeah, the 66 year old Navion airframe covered my butt when the 12 year old Continental engine didn't. "

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Update from Ron on a different forum:

Made a live spot on the Evening News as a "breaking story" however. "


And...here's that news report. Ron and GA come across quite well, though the home-office news folks don't know the difference between a "glider" and a plane that glides....

http://wset.com/news/local/police-glider-plane-goes-down-in-gretna

Ron

[FlyingRon]

Yes, the studio dispatched the news girl to the scene with the statement it was a Glider. I corrected her before we went on the air (i told her to call it a single engine airplane instead). I wasn't able to hear the lead in just what the reporter (Caren Pinto, nice girl) said to me. This all happened while we were waiting for the FAA to determine if they wanted to trek out to the field to see the thing (they decided not to).

Anyhow, the story was I'm flying along just SE of KLYH about 3500' (which is about 2800 AGL there I think). I'd been in the air about 45 minutes at that point. No signs of a problem when the engine started vibrating. Turned towards the nearest airport (W90, fortunately, I fly this route regularly and know where it is) and tell ROA approach I've got a problem. Ten seconds or so later there's a bang and it's a lot worse and there's oil on the windscreen and we're not producing any sort of power. I pick a field (mostly trees around where it happened) and start circling down. Set myself up on a short right base and drop the gear. Touch down, avoid the cows in the field, stand on the brakes but realize I'm going through a wire fence. Aim between the posts. Doesn't slow me down much. Finally roll to a stop another hundred feet later. Call ROA say I'm down safe. Shut everything down and get out. People are racing to the scene from nearby at this point. Several of them chase the cow that has followed me through the fence back into his field.

Engine is toast. Oil everywhere inside the cowl. A connecting rod is poking up through the top of the case. No airframe damage to speak of, did a better than average landing. Living on a grass strip has its plusses I guess. I took a fence post with the wing which made a nice post shape dent in the leading edge. My gear door on that side is bent (I think the wire caught it). THere's probably 20' of wire wrapped around the crankshaft and trailing back to the fence line.

Left a message for the insurance. They called me back an hour later saying they are on it. Have been going three ways between the FAA, the mechanic, and the insurance guys all morning.

[Mike Switzer]

Glad you are OK Ron. Are you going to have to separate the wings from the fuselage to get it out of there?

[Floatsflyer]

Ron, we don't actually know one another but because of this forum, I FEEL like I have come to know you over the years. It's because of this familiarity and personal connection that I'm especially thankful that you're alright.

There were 3 GA accidents in my geographic area over this past weekend and they were all fatalities. I didn't know any of them but your event puts a different perspective on the situation for me. Get back up on the horse asap.

[FlyingRon]

Yeah, I've been in three way comms all afternoon with the FAA, the Insurance people, and my mechanic. They'll demate the wings and take it up to Culpeper where I still have a hangar (it's completely cleaned out though, I had been ready to turn it back in to the airport).

[Puertoricoflyer]

Well you are OK which is the important thing. if the airplane can't be fixed insurance can buy you another one.

;)

[martymayes]

"What were you thinking?"



A question like that from a reporter and I'd have to pull out the Top Gun script.....

"When you're up there, you don't have time to think. If you think, you're dead!"

[mazdaP5]

Glad to hear you are ok. Sorry about the engine though.

[FlyingRon]

"What were you thinking?"



A question like that from a reporter and I'd have to pull out the Top Gun script.....

"When you're up there, you don't have time to think. If you think, you're dead!"

Yep, that's about the way it was. My decision process went like this.

1. The engine is crumping. Can I limp this thing back to Lynchburg. Turn around and head towards there.
2. Key the mike and tell ROA I've got an issue.
3. Engine gets worse. Look for a field. There are a few right here the rest is trees. Start circling down.
4. Tell ATC I'm putting it down in a field.
5. ATC asks me to IDENT (I had not been getting services from them). This is the only real question they asked...none of this souls on board stuff...
6. Getting low. Set my self up for a base to final turn to the field. Drop the gear (I don't know if I turned on the hydraulics or just adreniline allowed me to move the handle but it came down. Don't recall the green lights or anything not that I could do anything at this point if they weren't down and locked).
7. Touch down. Stand on the brakes. Coming up on the fence, aim between the posts. That didn't hurt at all. Slow down. Stop. Open Canopy. Breathe.
8. Call ATC and tell them I'm down safe. They ask if I have a cell and can call 911 myself (as it would give the location better than they can). Told them I could.
9. Shut everything down (master, ignition, fuel, mixture). Climb out. There are people running up from nearby houses. "Yes, I'm fine. Thank you. Where am I?"
10. Call wife. Tell her I'm down but uninjured and she should start driving towards Lynchburg...precise location to follow.

I suspect the whole sequence didn't take two minutes. I just flew the plane.

[1600vw]

The next time you pick your airplane up from annual, will you jump in her and go, or stay close to the airfield for maybe an hr? Glad to hear everything turned out ok and you did not get hurt.

I guess what I am asking..What did you learn from this?

Tony

[CarlOrton]

So glad you're ok. I've always enjoyed your contributions to the forums. Very interested in the failure analysis.

[FlyingRon]

When I had the cylinder put on, I climbed to 5500 over the field and watched the engine monitor (especially oil temperature and pressure) like a hawk for the first hour. It will be interesting to pull hte data form the JPI and see if there was some indication that I missed prior to it blowing. It's possible that I might have noticed a rise in oil temperature a few minutes prior to the failure (that's purely conjecture). If I had, I'd certainly have made a precautionary landing at KLYH.

I'm not sure if I'd have stayed in the vicinity of the departure airport it would have changed much. The failure didn't occur until 45 minutes after departure or so. It just would have put the failure up closer to the departure point, and frankly that terrain isn't likely to have been as good as where I did end up.

[Frank Giger]

Glad to hear you're okay!

Sounds like you did everything right, including refusing assistance from the cow that followed you from field to field (they mean well, but....).

Repairs stink.

[Cary]

Glad you're OK, Ron. Sounds like you handled it truly professionally. Also sounds a whole lot like my experience of some 13 1/2 years ago, other than I was already quite low as I tried to baby my failing engine. Not fun, and the aftermath will be very frustrating.

Cary

[1600vw]

I was just wondering if you took anything away from this in the forum of learning. I have had 8 engine outs with one being a complete loss of reduction unit and prop at 1000'. I learned from each one and was wondering what lesson you learned. Mike Bush speaks of maintenance induced failures. But I see you do not believe this was induced by maintenance. This was why I asked. I was wondering if this was maintenance induced. Again glad you are OK. To bad you did not have a go-pro running. Others could learn from this when something like this is handled correctly.

Tony

[FlyingRon]

I didn't say I didn't believe it was maintenance induced. I said I don't know (it could have been some work in the annual, it could have been something related to the replacement of the cylinder 3 hours ago, it could have been whatever caused the cylinder to break that we missed). What I said was that I don't think even being a little wary coming out of the annual, I'd have found it. I could have very well made a short (30 min) test flight and the thing may not have shown any symptoms.

I'm going to have to wait until the FAA and my mechanic looks a bit closer at the engine as to what the cause of failure was. One other armchair quarterback thinks improperly tightened through bolts might be responsible, but if that's the case, that was nearly 4 hours before the accident and again, it's hard to say what I would have been able to do between then and the accident flight to change things.

What I intend to do is set better limits on my JPI for the oil temp/pressure. I do recall checking the temp/pressure gauges earlier in the flight but they weren't in my continuous scan.

[martymayes]

On the other hand, I've seen some engines fail catastrophically for no apparent reason other than a part broke. One of my friends was bragging how well his 1200 hr O-300 was running and the next flight, Bam! Rod cap broke. That's why we prepare every for every flight with the potential for the engine to crap out, right?

Pilot walks away, good landing. Plane can be used again, great landing! Might need some repairs but it was off airport! If every off airport landing ended that way..........

[Kyle Boatright]

Ron, glad you made it through the engine failure unharmed (other than the financial pain). Sounds like you did some good thinking and good flying.

However, your current situation (airplane stranded in a farmer's field) is a rotten place to be. I hope your insurance company is helping in a big way.

[FlyingRon]

The insurance company is Avemco but they immediately (like before I even got home that night) had assigned the case to a "loss specialist" company. They've been very responsive, I've been in three-way discussions between them, the FAA, and my mechanic about the whole thing. The guy even commended me for having set a google map pin on the site I came to rest. Said it made it easy to find it when he went to look. Of course, all you have to do is ask anybody in Hurt, VA (not the biggest of metropolises) where the airplane is and they'd show you in short order.

The only real sticking point was that the state police wouldn't release me from the scene until they heard from the FAA and the FAA (note it was after 5PM) took about 90 minutes to relay that they weren't going to come out (I knew this, no injuries, no substantial damage to anything, it's night and now raining). The guy from the Richmond FSDO that called me the next morning has been helpful. I asked the State Police if they could drop me somewhere like a Denny's or something where I could wait until my wife got there. He said that they didn't have a Denny's, but he'd wait with me until she got there. After some discussion over the phone with my wife, we decided to rendezvous at a Hampton Inn down the road which we had stayed at in the past so Margy knew where it was.

Amusingly, my wife is about half way to the scene when her cell phone rings. It's Randy Burdette from the Virginia Department of Aviation to tell her that apparently her plane didn't want to move to North Carolina. My wife thought maybe the FAA or the SP notified the department, but apparently he was in Danville that night and saw it on the news. Great, my wife immediately called my parents to let them know that I was OK in case it made the news up there, but it was limited to the Lynchburg/Danville/Roanoke media outlet.

[Mayhemxpc]

Your comments on the State Police are interesting. So they knew you were there because you called 911. Yes, I know ATC told you to call 911, but why? You were OK, there was no emergency, no crime had been committed (I presume the farmer who owned the field was not pressing charges.) Why would the SP not let you go without permission from the FAA? What was their legal authority for doing so?

I have "interacted" with police at previous non-injury aircraft events. They generally aren't trained for these and generally fumble around trying to find some connection to what they have been trained for. Sometimes they revert to treating it like it was an automobile accident on a public highway rather than securing a public hazard. A calm explanation by a third party (pilot not involved in the actual accident) is usually welcomed. ("Officer, could you please give the pilot certificate back to the pilot. He will need to have it on his person when the FAA or NTSB arrive." "Oh, of course, I didn't know. I was just ensuring I had his personal details." "No problem officer, we just don't want to get the pilot in any unnecessary trouble. In the meantime, could we work to ensure that the area is safe and secure. I would suggest moving at least 50 yards from the aircraft. There is a lot of 100 Octane gasoline spilling around.")

Nonetheless, your story just adds to my growing believe that I should really consider swapping the SkyPig for a Navion.

[martymayes]

Your comments on the State Police are interesting. So they knew you were there because you called 911. Yes, I know ATC told you to call 911, but why? You were OK, there was no emergency, no crime had been committed (I presume the farmer who owned the field was not pressing charges.) Why would the SP not let you go without permission from the FAA? What was their legal authority for doing so?



I have "interacted" with police at previous non-injury aircraft events. They generally aren't trained for these and generally fumble around trying to find some connection to what they have been trained for.

And that's your answer. They probably don't know any better but by golly, it's an airplane so we need to do something police like!

[FlyingRon]

In fact, I didn't call 911. By the time I cleaned things up in the cockpit (switches off, mixture/fuel off, etc...) and got out, there were people converging on the field. I'm sure there were already a number of pending 911 calls about the plane "crash" so I didn't worry about it. VSP is tasked in Virginia to 'investigate" all aviation accidents. I've been there before even when I ended up back on the departure runway after an engine failure. Of course, cops know nothing about the silly form they're given to fill out so mostly I sit there and tell him what to put in each box.

Actually, I suspect there was little the officer could have done if I decided to leave the scene (though I really had nowhere to go). The problem is that HE couldn't leave the scene and he was my ride. We hung out until the FAA finally returned the call that says, yeah fine, we'll call you tomorrow. Then the cop gave me a ride to the Hampton. The fire department came...assisted in stringing the yellow tape all around the plane, and left. They did let me sit in the fire engine for a while when it started to rain.

[Mayhemxpc]

Wow, you got to sit in a fire engine! Almost worth the forced landing :-)

The business about the SP (or any responding law enforcement) to stay on the scene until relieved by the FAA is correct. Similarly, if CAP makes the find, they have to stay there until relieved by law enforcement. It is a matter of securing the scene/evidence preservation IF the FAA or NTSB decide to investigate.

When this appears in next year's stats, do you think the NTSB will count this as enroute phase, landing phase or will they give you double credit. ;-)

[rwanttaja]

When this appears in next year's stats, do you think the NTSB will count this as enroute phase, landing phase or will they give you double credit. ;-)
Probably won't be in next year's stats. No major damage due to the forced landing, hence doesn't count as an accident.

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

Wow, you got to sit in a fire engine! Almost worth the forced landing :-)
I've driven fire engines. I spent several years as a firefighter and paramedic.

Well, the good part of this is that I the loss questionnaire I had to fill out wanted my pilot times. I've not bothered to actually add up the log book page numbers since I got my instrument rating over a decade ago. I was guessing about 800TT. Turns out that I passed 1000 in the middle of Oshkosh this year (turns out to be on the flight I was flying formation with Snowbirds 10 and 11). I've got 700 hours in Navions even.

Yep, the NTSB is not concerned. They don't count the engine towards what they consider substantial damage. Been through that 15 years ago when the last engine I had failed. Both cases the other damage to the airframe was superficial. This time I actually did damage some property on the ground, but that was pretty minor as well.

This time I was solo instead of flying Young Eagles, so I guess I'm not going to get another letter thanking me for not killing anybody. Maybe PETA will thank me for not killing the cow.

[FlyingRon]

A friend who happened to be at Culpeper when they were unloading my plane from the flatbed took this picture of the engine:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14525167_10207309209679519_3814666025990414932_o.j pg

[martymayes]

Which cylinder was off recently?


I'd say there won't be any core credit forthcoming.....

[FlyingRon]

Which cylinder was off recently?


I'd say there won't be any core credit forthcoming.....


The #2 was the one that was replaced (that's the right most one in the picture). I was really expecting to find that one blown to bits but it's the center one that's blasted. BY the time I got to the ground the oil was everywhere so I couldn't tell where the leak started. I suspect something broke and caused the oil to run out which then caused a catastrophic failure. I'd looked at the engine after two test runs and the first flight and there was no noticeable leak (and the level was still up right near 11... you'd expect it to burn a bit breaking in the cylinder).

[Kyle Boatright]

Which cylinder was off recently?


I'd say there won't be any core credit forthcoming.....

It was fine when I put it in the crate...

[Anymouse]

Yes, the studio dispatched the news girl to the scene with the statement it was a Glider. I corrected her before we went on the air (i told her to call it a single engine airplane instead). I wasn't able to hear the lead in just what the reporter (Caren Pinto, nice girl) said to me. This all happened while we were waiting for the FAA to determine if they wanted to trek out to the field to see the thing (they decided not to).

Anyhow, the story was I'm flying along just SE of KLYH about 3500' (which is about 2800 AGL there I think). I'd been in the air about 45 minutes at that point. No signs of a problem when the engine started vibrating. Turned towards the nearest airport (W90, fortunately, I fly this route regularly and know where it is) and tell ROA approach I've got a problem. Ten seconds or so later there's a bang and it's a lot worse and there's oil on the windscreen and we're not producing any sort of power. I pick a field (mostly trees around where it happened) and start circling down. Set myself up on a short right base and drop the gear. Touch down, avoid the cows in the field, stand on the brakes but realize I'm going through a wire fence. Aim between the posts. Doesn't slow me down much. Finally roll to a stop another hundred feet later. Call ROA say I'm down safe. Shut everything down and get out. People are racing to the scene from nearby at this point. Several of them chase the cow that has followed me through the fence back into his field.

Engine is toast. Oil everywhere inside the cowl. A connecting rod is poking up through the top of the case. No airframe damage to speak of, did a better than average landing. Living on a grass strip has its plusses I guess. I took a fence post with the wing which made a nice post shape dent in the leading edge. My gear door on that side is bent (I think the wire caught it). THere's probably 20' of wire wrapped around the crankshaft and trailing back to the fence line.

Left a message for the insurance. They called me back an hour later saying they are on it. Have been going three ways between the FAA, the mechanic, and the insurance guys all morning.

Sorry I'm late to this thread. I'm also sorry to hear about this incident, but glad you're okay. Hopefully you'll get your bird back in the air in no time.

[FlyingRon]

For those of you still wondering. The wing damage is a bit more severe than I though. The navion wing doesn't have "ribs" per se. It's a monocoque like the fuselage. It will need to go somewhere (most likely the same shop that restored the plane ten years ago) with the jigs to redo that portion. As a result (and the fact I think the engine scares him), the FAA guy from the FSDO elevated the thing to an "accident." The NTSB guy had me fill out one of their accident report (only onerous as it asks for time totals different than what the insurance company and the FAA asked for so I had to get the calculator out again and subtract out the non-ASEL time and the few hours from my student pilot days when I wasn't pilot in command).

The NTSB is having the engine shipped down to Continental to be inspected. I'm hoping to be able to make it down to Mobile for that.

The preliminary is up on the NTSB site: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20161014X34716&key=1&queryId=16565cbb-7713-47b2-a938-7575c7ed930c&pgno=10&pgsize=50

It pretty much cut and paste from my statement on the accident report with the FAA guys description of the damage.

[rwanttaja]

The preliminary is up on the NTSB site: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20161014X34716&key=1&queryId=16565cbb-7713-47b2-a938-7575c7ed930c&pgno=10&pgsize=50

It pretty much cut and paste from my statement on the accident report with the FAA guys description of the damage.
I note it says, "...the airplane's most recent 100-hour inspection occurred on September 16, 2016."

As a privately-operated aircraft, the airplane isn't required to have 100-hour inspections. Was this just how your A&P signed off the engine work, or do you have 100-hours done as a safety measure due to the amount of flying you do?

Just curious....

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

In fact, it was an annual and signed off as such. Of course, annuals are the same scope as 100 hours so it's technically not incorrect. No, this is not a situation that requires 100 hour inspections (and frankly, I'm lucky if I get 100 hours in a year. Scanning back over the last three annuals, it looks like about 90 hours TIS each year. My time in service is determined by a hobbs meter on the landing gear rather than tach time (the A36 I copped the engine instruments from doesn't have a recording tach), so my TIS is a bit less than what someone using a tach with FRP settings would get.

[martymayes]

I note it says, "...the airplane's most recent 100-hour inspection occurred on September 16, 2016."

As a privately-operated aircraft, the airplane isn't required to have 100-hour inspections. Was this just how your A&P signed off the engine work, or do you have 100-hours done as a safety measure due to the amount of flying you do?

More like that's the box the FAA checked when writing the report.

[FlyingRon]

Well, this sucks.

The NTSB returned the engine to my mechanic. Of course, we know the core is toast (the mechanic says it looks like someone through a couple of grenades into the crankcase). Of course, I knew I was on the hook for a replacement engine. However, I told the NTSB and Continental, that there was much stuff attached to the engine that I needed back when they were done inspecting it. It's all missing.

Lost are:

Most of the unobtainable cooling baffling specific to the Navion installation
The alternator
All vestiges of my Tannis engine heater
The entire exhaust

Who knows what else.
The restoration shop is inventorying things and trying to chase things down.

[martymayes]

Well, this sucks.

The NTSB returned the engine to my mechanic. Of course, we know the core is toast (the mechanic says it looks like someone through a couple of grenades into the crankcase). Of course, I knew I was on the hook for a replacement engine. However, I told the NTSB and Continental, that there was much stuff attached to the engine that I needed back when they were done inspecting it. It's all missing.

Lost are:

Most of the unobtainable cooling baffling specific to the Navion installation
The alternator
All vestiges of my Tannis engine heater
The entire exhaust

Who knows what else.
The restoration shop is inventorying things and trying to chase things down.

Is the rest of the airframe restorable?

[FlyingRon]

My mechanic and I now have all the parts in hand. The Navion is packed on the flat bed trailer and I'm going to haul it out to Nebraska from Culpeper, VA starting Monday morning. I should have some pictures of the destroyed engine when I get out there before it goes back to Continental as the "core" on the new one.

[FlyingRon]

I spent most of this week driving the airframe out to Classic Aero in Nebraska. I got to see what was left of the engine out there.
As we say in NASCAR: "Blowed up."

https://flic.kr/s/aHskVtUcun

[Floatsflyer]

As my old friend Dan Ackroyd used to say, "Blowed up real good." (We were in the same university drama club in plays together. Clearly, he did much better than me!)

I need some clarification if you don't mind. Are you doing all this transporting and fixing on your own because you don't have hull insurance?

[Dave Stadt]

I spent most of this week driving the airframe out to Classic Aero in Nebraska. I got to see what was left of the engine out there.
As we say in NASCAR: "Blowed up."

https://flic.kr/s/aHskVtUcun

I've seen 'blowed up' before but that is award winning 'blowed up.'

[DaleB]

That oughta buff right out. Heck, most all the parts are still there in the crankcase, right?

[rwanttaja]

That oughta buff right out. Heck, most all the parts are still there in the crankcase, right?
JB Weld. Just sayin'.

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

That oughta buff right out. Heck, most all the parts are still there in the crankcase, right?

Yeah, it's an exercise to glue all the pieces back together. The five-pound sack of ground up metal bits is going to be challenging.

[wyoranch]

Yeah, it's an exercise to glue all the pieces back together. The five-pound sack of ground up metal bits is going to be challenging.
start with the edge pieces first

[cub builder]

That's what they call a case failure. The case failed to contain all the loose parts. -Cub Builder