Oshkosh Trams, Can we do Better!

[Jetguy]

Disclaimer: Thank you for all the volunteers who drove the trams durning OSH2016. The comments below in no way reflect on you generosity in giving of your free time!

I feel it is time for a complete over haul of the tram system run durning OSH. First lets talk about perceived problems then lets Suggest some solutions.:) This year as we set a record attendance at OSH I felt like we reached a plateau in the overall positive experience versus fighting the crowd. Because of the size of OSH and the aging crowds the tram system has become a vital part to move people from one location to another. I understand that because the event is only one week a year there is a certain level of efficiency Versus cost that will be reached.:P

Problems:
At intermediate stops trams were full most of the time.
Trams bunching up together so as there were long waits some times.
Tram stations became very muddy when rain fell.
Trams Didn't run frequently on Sunday before OSH started on Monday.
The color tram Flags have become outdated and confusing.

Solutions:
Create a core group of volunteers with better training for each driver and rear attendant.
Add an attendant at each tram stop on the ground to help regulate timing so trams don't get bunched up one right after another. In other words the ground attendant would monitor spacing and not let the stopped tram leave until the previous tram had some time to move father ahead.
Prepare larger tram stations the week prior with crushed rock for better drainage.
Use Sunday as a training and practice day and it also helps arriving pilots move out to front bus station to ride to the housing.
Consider adding banners or some type of better signage on top of trams that show the route.
Consider adding express trams that start at the ultra lights and go non stop the the war birds. Maybe this will help free up intermediate stops for other passengers. These express trams can exit fairgrounds at the one-man-band location, run the outer edge along the fence and reenter along the
Foundation Rd and reverse course the same route.
Create a position, which might be called the Tram Czar:rollseyes:, for one guy who spends the whole week supervising the tram system with a few associates with walky talkies to help him keep the trams running at optimum levels. Maybe they could loan him a window in the back of the tower facing west.

OK, Oshkosh attendees lets hear your thoughts on the subject.:thumbsup:

[CHICAGORANDY]

For background - I am a tram conductor with several years on the microphone.

There already IS a tram 'czar' and his small staff with walkie-talkies - who do their very best to keep things rolling and flowing.

Part of the problem with trams 'bunching up' happens at the VERY active taxiway by Warbirds. ALL road traffic gets stopped till the planes clear. The same happens from Vintage to Ultralights as planes move in and out of parking areas.

I did see a few straw trucks out trying to keep waiting areas habitable, but Mother Nature is a mean woman sometimes. Doubtless that group could also benefit from more volunteers to throw straw from the back of their dump truck.

I would like to see trams run further south of the ultralight area but the road would need MUCH improvement. Not much suspension on those tram carts - lol

This year they added to the Green route to move folks from the Bus Park past the Main gate and over to the Red Barn Camp Store and the west entrance to the Fly Market - which was well received. They also experimented with a new route through the Homebuilt area on the Red route.

Banners/signs is a great idea - the tractor donor only allows taping items to the rigs (like pennant flag sticks) as they are offered for sale after AirVenture.

As to staff at each tram stop? I am certain that if another 100+ folks step up and volunteer next year management might consider that type of position. As it exists now it was sometimes difficult to have sufficient drivers/conductors to keep all units on the street. It was NOT unusual for some of us to go a full 6+ hour shift with NO or perhaps just one break.

IMHO as many trams as they had pairs of volunteers to work them were on the streets both Saturday and Sunday before the show opened, I know because I also worked both days all the way thru to the following Saturday evening. But NO, the entire tram fleet was not in service those two days.

Another factor slowing down 'smooth' efficient operation is the simple nature of the beast. 35+trams competing with 75,000 pedestrians who are NOT aware of their surroundings, gawking at aircraft as they should, looking at the skies and not seeing 45 feet of tram coming at them. Then add sharing the limited roads with a phalanx of golf carts, mobility scooters and service vehicles. This year add the insanity called PokeGo, where one wanders around oblivious staring at a smartphone screen, whilst one walks off a cliff, into a tree or directly in front of a John Deere trying to keep from churning the pokey-seeker under its wheels..

In my personal opinion, the trams ran best when half the passengers exit at each stop, allowing 20 more folks a chance to ride to the next stop. I watched the most 'unhappiness' when NOONE got off at a stop, forcing us to leave behind a sea of non-smiling faces. And they ran SUPERBLY when we were able to provide a lift to folks who were elderly or with limited mobility, in wheelchairs, on crutches etc, which IMHO is the TRUE reason the trams exist.

As for me, I had only one jerk passenger on a route all week and got to interact with wonderful people from all over the world. I'm eagerly awaiting next year. Each tram team (driver and conductor) receives sufficient training for the task IMHO. Some are married couples, some are single volunteers like myself who are then partnered with another as needed. I opt to wander the grounds when off-shift to learn as much as I can about what is where to be able to pass that info on to my tram passengers as we travel. That and I enjoy 'entertaining' them en route with corny jokes and light hearted banter to keep the mood festive.

As every volunteer group at AirVenture would say - "more volunteers please". It's a dirty thankless job most times, but it IS rewarding. Services can only be expanded if the workforce grows....and that is NOT up to EAA home office, it's up to us, the membership.

[skyfixer8]

I, like chicagorandy have been tram driving for almost 12 years now and while he hits the proverbial nail on the head, he forgot to mention a couple other things.
1. Not only is the Warbird taxiway a major choke point for back up, but when the Aviation Universities decide they want to showcase a plane by towing it from RV parking to their display site, that will stop traffic for up to 30 minutes at times. These trams do not make very good off road vehicles if you try to go onto the grass to get around them.
2. The tram stops used to be identified by "bread board" signs on both sides of the roads, for some reason, someone at HQ decided on signs on one side only.
3. Another hold up is people stopping the tram at the stop to ask a driver or conductor, that are trying to leave, which direction is the tram going ( lots of time in broken English). The conductor is usually shouting the info on the PA system, but either there is no one listening or there are a flock of jets going overhead making conversation unheard. There also numerous signs showing routes, at the stops, in the map that you get when you pay admission and those fancy info towers that have tons of info on them.
4. I would make it at least another 150 volunteers to help out. But then there are usually volunteers that decide to leave in the middle of the week. While not uncommon to drive without a break, when you have to do a double shift for lack of people, that is another story.
5. Too many people working for vendors ( mostly teens) who are given a golf cart, scooter or gator and not told about speeding or weaving in and out of traffic.
I could go on forever, having worked under a couple past regimes.
Are there more improvements that could be made ? Yes. INMHO, the Zorn family has improved things greatly and I am sure they will continue to do so.

[CHICAGORANDY]

My 'favorite' question, asked literally a hundred times a day is "Which way does the Northbound tram go?" And I maintain my smile and positive attitude and point the way.

At the Main tower switch point where the North & Southbound Red trams stop to allow folks to exit or get on a Green tram over to the Bus Park etc. there are literally LARGE signs showing which side of the road to stand to go north or south. Care to guess how many people try to jump off a tram starting to move after they hear me say for the 5th time THIS IS THE NORTHBOUND TRAM TO WARBIRDS over the PA system?

My only hope is that folks understand that once we get that machine rolling, we kinda have to keep rolling, and not stop to again state our compass heading in a private conversation with them.

I always make mention that Piper Aircraft is the sponsor of all the trams at AirVenture and encourage guests to stop by their display and say hi and thanks. I do every year and hear from Piper staff that at least a few people do.

I suspect that LOTS of changes are theoretically possible, but as the OP mentions, there is a realistic cost/benefit calculation for a once a year event, subject to the vagaries of volunteerism.

[CarlOrton]

I try to volunteer about 3-4 days of each Convention. Other club/committee functions limit me somewhat. When I try to volunteer at an area that I haven't before, I'm often greeted with a "we don't take no stinkin' newbies..." response.

If you need more volunteers, might I suggest posting a note here to that effect. I had no idea trams were being idled due to lack of teams.

[skyfixer8]

Carl, in my many years in trams, I don t think I have ever seen anyone turned away unless they had a "problem". I have driven and conducted and aside from needing a stiff drink at the end of some shifts because of encounters listed above, I have enjoyed it. In Feb. or March when they start looking for volunteers, contact the people listed in volunteer section of this site.

Bill L

[CarlOrton]

Bill, thanks for the response. I have never tried to work the trams because I just "assumed" they were usually full-up. My comment above was based on experiences in other areas.

[skyfixer8]

I see you have a Sonex. I am working on the longest record build time of one Since 2008. LOL

[CHICAGORANDY]

Carl - if you decide to sign up? Look forward to working with ya' next year - depending on the shift you get assigned (either 8-2 or 2-8) you still will have several hours free to wander the grounds and buildings, and having been on the trams will have a good idea of where you want to concentrate your gawking each day.

[FlyingRon]

One thing I've suggested in the past (and maybe with the Tram volunteers here this year I can get some traction) is better signage. You can elimiate much confusion and much of the questions needed of the conductor if you would put up signs at the boarding points that indicate where the tram that stops there goes.

For example "BOARD HERE FOR EXHIBIT BUILDINGS, FORUMS, WARBIRDS, NORTH 40"

[Byron J. Covey]

Sincere question here: Why are there separate blue and red routes? Why not run every tram from the far south to the far north and back?


BJC

[CHICAGORANDY]

Sounds like a great idea to me Ron....I have NO authority as regards trams, but hopefully some of the EAA staff read this forum and will take note for next year. I also don't know why some stops didn't have signage on both sides of the road this year.

It would require that the signs were 'customized' for each tram stop of course, but that should not be a huge issue? I really don't know who is the 'sign czar' for AirVenture.....but I'll wager there IS one - lol

I'll wait to see how this thread progresses and will be happy to send a link to the tram chief for his review.

[skyfixer8]

Ron, Good idea but been brought up before. First though, gotta get people to read the signs and or listen to the poor person on back that is shouting his lungs out and no one listening. The tram chairs get their orders from on high, so you would have to ask whoever this mysterious person is.

[skyfixer8]

Byron, only reason I can come up with for this is that the tractor company puts mileage and hour restrictions on the tractors

Bill L

[CHICAGORANDY]

Good question Byron - perhaps because there is much higher pedestrian traffic from the Hangar Café to Warbirds?

I really don't know though. It's an idea worthy of some discussion and thought.

There IS some benefit having one or two 'terminals' that force all passengers off to allow others a chance for a ride. Too often attendees just want to go for a ride for hours rather than use the trams as they were intended- a point-to-point conveyance. As I end up mentioning as a conductor.."If nobody gets off the tram, nobody can get on it."

Worth noting that there are not many areas large enough to provide safe turn-around of a tram either.

There used to also be a yellow route if memory serves. Maybe Red could just go from the Tower to the North 40 gate, and a Yellow route could run from the Tower to the Hangar Café?

I really don't know if there is a perfect answer to the issues raised. Even something seemingly simple like a small route change has a huge ripple effect - right off the bat all the free maps handed out would have to be changed, as well as the website. Doubtless everything involved with AirVenture must pass through the hands of EAA's legal department for their nod too?

[Neonblue]

There IS some benefit having one or two 'terminals' that force all passengers off to allow others a chance for a ride. Too often attendees just want to go for a ride for hours rather than use the trams as they were intended- a point-to-point conveyance. As I end up mentioning as a conductor.."If nobody gets off the tram, nobody can get on it."

I wholeheartedly agree.

I've been flying in now for about 8 years and use the tram system a lot. I seem to remember a few years go that they made everyone get off at the main stops and I thought that was a great idea. And I also thought I had remembered that the south trams stayed south and the north trams stayed north. But this year it seemed (I didn't ride to ultralights this year; only north 40 to tower) that the trams were running from the furthest south to the furthest north. What frustrated me the most was waiting in line at one the main stops (tower) and having people ignore the lines and just get on ahead of everyone else. And since there were usually only a few people getting off, I'd end up waiting for another tram or two to get my ride. The trams should be structured so that everyone needs to get off at a stop. South to center, center to north, north to north 40 then force people to get off the trams. I did see a lot of people at the intermediate stops along the way. I never was on a tram that wasn't at capacity so I don't know how often those people would even get picked up. To me, that says you're at or beyond capacity. If the numbers are up, you'll need to expect to put more trams/capacity on the road...

If the runway is a sticking point then what I'd do is have another stop south of the taxiway by warbirds where the main line runs back. That way things can stay in time. Then have a shorter run with two trams to the north 40. You need to take that out of the equation...

[FlyingRon]

The "TOWER" hasn't been a terminus for the past two years. I don't know why they stopped using it for such. The RED tram ran from the North 40 to the Hangar Cafe this year and the Blue south from there. If I recall, last year, there was an adhoc terminus between Scholler and the south two exhibit buildings.

[skyfixer8]

Ron, I have been driving for 12 + years and every year we have new rules laid out by someone in headquarters. All I could suggest is to see if you can get an answer from them. I am sure it is frustrating every year to the chair people. Just when the operation is starting to go smoothe and most of the bumps ironed out, someone has to change the pattern and rules. And yes, every year, I put my $.02 worth in, but that is all my ideas are worth.

Bill L

[CHICAGORANDY]

Like Bill mentions - WE volunteers just follow whatever the new 'rules' are each year, as we learn the Saturday before the convention starts.. Prior to AirVenture there are chair & committee meetings that thrash out the details of how that year will proceed, to include tram routes and allowed signage.

Ron, you are correct - last year there was a 'terminal' at the tram stop by Gate 27 and the S/E side of Hangar B, just across the road from where Jerry's One Man Band set up. In theory it looked good, and it DID make for similar length/duration red & blue routes which was nice, but in practice it was a nightmare getting the Blue/Red trams spun around in the midst of all the road/pedestrian traffic there. So this year it was moved back to the Hangar Café/Tram Office spot. There and the Tower location seem to offer the largest terminal footprint as the grounds are laid out. AirVenture does have vast acreage, but it is quickly consumed by planes and vendors, and where we could use additional terminals there isn't space, and where there's space we don't need terminals.

I too look forward to 2017 to see where we'll be running then. I agree that it helps for folks to send in via e-mail their suggestions/concerns directly to EAA HQ since they make the decisions.

[FlyingRon]

I would like to see trams run further south of the ultralight area but the road would need MUCH improvement. Not much suspension on those tram carts -
As of three years ago there's a very nice paved road that goes all the way down to the south corner of the airport. We lost a lot of aircraft parking as a result. Yoo just need to turn RIGHT at Ultralights (right about the point the pavement stops now) and follow the perimeter road.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Good to know - extending the Blue route further south, even if only half way down, might merit some chair consideration- as it is now there are only 3 stops end to end. I am not familiar with the current school bus schedules down south beyond the U/L runway south end, or how that would interact?

This entire thread will be sent to the Zorns at some point well before next year for their consideration and possible submission to the authorities at EAA who do make the final decisions.

[FlyingRon]

They should realize that this road exists. The tram operation is redirected there when the "bird line" (Thunderbird/Snowbirds) was in effect.

[deftone]

When I try to volunteer at an area that I haven't before, I'm often greeted with a "we don't take no stinkin' newbies..." response.

.

I had this response from vintage this year. Was very surprised that they didnt seem to want my help when I went over to sign up on the Monday. They made me feel like I was inconveniencing them and I ended up walking away and not volunteering with them. If more volunteers are required on the trams next year I will be more than happy to get involved. :thumbsup:

[FlyingRon]

Eh? Which part of vintage? I have worked Vintage Flight Line for 17 years and there has never been an anti-newbie attitude. We train at 9 and 1 PM every day and that's all the "sign up" you need. Once you're trained you just show up when you want to work and we'll (well mostly my wife) will send you out to do something.

[skyfixer8]

Ron, I know the road you are talking about, been down it many times, but once you cross the creek and get abeam the showers, it is unimproved mud and grass. The EAA don t like us going down there cause it tears up the landscape I guess (even though the tractors will pull through there). I have seen the Kobusin busses get stuck down there. Would be a good idea to pave or harden the area in the south 40 some how.

Bill L

[BeagleOne]

EAA really needs to find a way to reduce the number of vehicles. The overload of golf carts and gators is ridiculous, and from what I could tell, most of them were NOT being used by vendors on vendor business. The worst example I saw was a family of four tooling down the road from the vintage barn to the Hangar Cafe, after the Saturday airshow, with two toddlers on the dad's lap, doing the "steering" and veering all over the place. It was ridiculous.

EAA also needs to do something about rental of mobility scooters by non-disabled people. Of course I realize that not all disabilities are visible, but when the scooter is being ridden by a couple in their 30s, with the wife sitting on the husband's lap, or there are four men in their 20s all riding scooters in a group, well, it makes me wonder. (I took this picture because I know the owner of this airplane and I was kind of worried someone might run into it with his scooter. They were also across the Snowbird burn line and the marshals asked them to leave a couple of minutes later.)

IDK exactly how EAA could restrict the rentals apart from requiring that the person show a handicapped parking permit, or some kind of letter from a doctor, but things were pretty out of control this year.

That would reduce the traffic the trams have to deal with. I also would be in favor of reinstating the tower "all change" spot, in addition to the Hangar Cafe; I like the idea of a single tram that goes all the way up and down the grounds, but that does bring up the problem of people who just stay on and ride around for the view. I didn't ride the green tram but I like the idea of one that covers the western part of the grounds.

The trams are an awesome addition to EAA. Thanks to the volunteers and donors who make them possible.

[BeagleOne]

Toddlers at the wheel! This was taken just after the Saturday Snowbird performance, when lots of people were leaving the grounds and foot traffic along the road was very heavy. I was on a southbound tram and these people came from the exhibit hangar area, down the road past the Theater in the Woods, past Vintage, and ended up at the Hangar Cafe, weaving through the pedestrians and almost hitting several of them as the kids "steered".

[Low Pass]

Toddlers at the wheel! This was taken just after the Saturday Snowbird performance, when lots of people were leaving the grounds and foot traffic along the road was very heavy. I was on a southbound tram and these people came from the exhibit hangar area, down the road past the Theater in the Woods, past Vintage, and ended up at the Hangar Cafe, weaving through the pedestrians and almost hitting several of them as the kids "steered".
If it was so dangerous, why didn't you call the police? I'm seeing a dad doing what so many in this country don't do; spending a little quality time with his son and have a little fun. Things families and people used to do before everyone got so offended with everything.

[FlyingRon]

Well, believe it or not, the number of vehicles in most places on the grounds is GREATLY DIMINISHED compared to what it was in the past. It used to be really bad. As for you determining who merits mobility devices or not, that's a large can of worms the EAA should not be getting into. Some people can walk fine over short distances but not over the miles of distance to get from parking to the show and back.

Allowing children to operate a golf cart or gator is ABSOLUTELY illegal on the grounds. There are STRICT rules on this and the chairmen, etc... can not make exceptions. If you see something like this happen contact security. If I'd have seen it happening in Vintage I'd have had them over there quickly.

[deftone]

Eh? Which part of vintage? I have worked Vintage Flight Line for 17 years and there has never been an anti-newbie attitude. We train at 9 and 1 PM every day and that's all the "sign up" you need. Once you're trained you just show up when you want to work and we'll (well mostly my wife) will send you out to do something.

I came along before 9am Monday looking to volunteer the whole week. I was open to doing whatever was required. I chose vintage as I am a VAA member, although have never volunteered before. I dont remember the girls name, was a younger girl, around college aged at the booth. Getting information was like pulling teeth and she had no intention of helping me out. Not to worry though. I will be back next year willing to volunteer. I still had a blast at OSH just like every year!

[Byron J. Covey]

Well, believe it or not, the number of vehicles in most places on the grounds is GREATLY DIMINISHED compared to what it was in the past. It used to be really bad. As for you determining who merits mobility devices or not, that's a large can of worms the EAA should not be getting into. Some people can walk fine over short distances but not over the miles of distance to get from parking to the show and back.

Allowing children to operate a golf cart or gator is ABSOLUTELY illegal on the grounds. There are STRICT rules on this and the chairmen, etc... can not make exceptions. If you see something like this happen contact security. If I'd have seen it happening in Vintage I'd have had them over there quickly.

Yes, it is getting better, but there still are problems, as cited in posts above.


BJC

[FlyingRon]

Skip the booth, continue on down the road until almost at the Hangar cafe. There's a building that says "Vintage Flight Line Operations". Walk around to the back side and say "I'd like to volunteer." We train at 9AM and 1PM every day.

[Aviatrexx]

The primary reason is to prevent morning trams from filling up with South40 folks by the time they leave the Hangar Cafe and no one getting off until they reach the exhibit buildings. By breaking the South40/Ultralights-to-North40/Warbirds into multiple loops, there are points at which everyone must get off the tram and stand in line behind everyone else queued up to go in that direction. It's the only fair solution. IMHO there should be more tram turn-arounds when attendance is high but there just isn't any space where they are needed (e.g. Vintage Red Barn).

Real estate at Airventure is a zero-sum game: if you need it for a legitimate purpose, it will be at the expense of someone else's legitimate purpose. (See: chalets). Frankly, I think it ludicrous that the hard surface roads are not reserved for vehicular traffic (not including scooters). It's far more comfortable to walk on grass, gravel, or woodchips than asphalt. If the strip of shoulder being used for concrete benches, signage, etc. were made into pedestrian lanes, it would be a huge improvement in the flow of necessary vehicular traffic on the hard surface, which spends most of its time trying not to hit oblivious pedestrians. But that requires a taking of real estate and thus probably won't fly.

However, if all they did was repaint the "bike lane" stripes on Wittman and add big honkin' arrows inside the lanes (pointing north on the west side, south on the east) it would be a huge improvement. I don't know when parents stopped teaching their children to "Walk facing the traffic" but it's been several generations apparently. Currently we have bidirectional foot traffic on both sides of the road (predominately with their backs to vehicular traffic). This doubles the amount of space necessary for everyone to weave in and out, and leaves a single lane (at best) for vehicular traffic. I doubt if the majority of pedestrians would pay any attention to the big honkin' arrows but if we had them, some people would, and the rest would tend to follow. At worst, we would have most of the people facing the oncoming traffic so they would know to step out of the way.

I've threatened to temporarily mount airhorns on the front of my tractor to deal with the truly oblivious moron walking down the middle of the road, phone to his ear, trying to talk over the rattle of a diesel John Deere six feet behind him. It's going to be either an airhorn or a cow-catcher... :rollseyes:

-Chip-


Sincere question here: Why are there separate blue and red routes? Why not run every tram from the far south to the far north and back?


BJC

[StuBob]

RE: Needing more volunteers for trams. I sent an email to the address labeled something like "email here to volunteer" two years ago. My wife and I have extensive experience driving tractors and 15 or more years of OSH attendance. Ideal newbie tram drivers, right?

Nope. No reply at all -- not even the courtesy of a "get lost" email.

If EAA is really so short of volunteers, you can't prove it by me.

[skyfixer8]

StuBob, I will offer to do you a one time good deal with trams. I been working for them over 12 years and they do need volunteers especially during mid week when many have decided enough is enough and leave so some of us wind up doing double shifts. Around March or April, e mails start going out from the chairman and his wife. Send them an e mail at the following address about that time frame and you should get a response. If not, let me know. sandy_zorn@hotmail.com. I will see if I can help you out there.

Bill L

[StuBob]

Thanks, Bill. I might do that.

[Jetguy]

Let's recap!

Need more volunteers.
Routing of trams limited to required space for 180 degree turn radius!
Need better Route Signage on trams!
Need some type of non-annoying horn to heard the walkers out of the way!
More non stop trams from ultra lights to war birds!
Better spacing between trams if pos:rollseyes:sible!

What did I forget?

[CHICAGORANDY]

Better signage at tram stops, especially which way and where the tram goes at each side of road.

Trams to run further South beyond Ultralights

I'm not a fan of the non-stop tram idea personally. We want more riders, not a few select ones. And there is the limitation on engine hours for the tractors.

[Jetguy]

Better signage at tram stops, especially which way and where the tram goes at each side of road.

Trams to run further South beyond Ultralights

I'm not a fan of the non-stop tram idea personally. We want more riders, not a few select ones. And there is the limitation on engine hours for the tractors.

I was thinking the nonstops would take some pax off the other trams so that intermediate stops would have more seats. Maybe try it on the first day to see pax loads, if loads are light then stop them. Didn't know there was a time limit per John Deer on tractors?

[skyfixer8]

Better spacing is a good idea if you can get the colleges to stop shuffling planes from taxiway to their display area whenever they want, get sponsors have their planes set up before the show starts, I have had to drive a tram in places they were not meant to go to get around the jams, or sit and wait forever while someone that has never towed a plane decides to learn while doing. Maybe put a traffic light on the taxiway that would have taxiing planes stop for vehicle traffic (dreaming again LOL ). Need volunteers that will stay for the whole time they signed up for unless an emergency pops up. Get people to actually read the map they get when they enter for all the tram info they need.
Wonder if I forgot anything.

[skyfixer8]

time and mileage limit put on tractors by local company that lets us use them.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Correct, Deere does not donate tractors, the local dealer Riesterer & Schnell is the tram sponsor and they then sell the tractors after AirVenture with no more than 100 hours on the clock.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Saw the e-mail from EAA today - looks like the trams and buses will be joined into one 'shuttle' service sharing the same stops? I dunno, the buses and tractors don't seem to share the same interchanges very well, partially due to size and turning radius conflicts and mostly due to the long time it takes to unload/load passengers on the bus vs the tram cars. I wonder about major traffic jams at the switch-over points.

We shall see I reckon - EAA promises updates and more info in a couple weeks.

[Floatsflyer]

Saw the e-mail from EAA today - looks like the trams and buses will be joined into one 'shuttle' service sharing the same stops? I dunno, the buses and tractors don't seem to share the same interchanges very well, partially due to size and turning radius conflicts and mostly due to the long time it takes to unload/load passengers on the bus vs the tram cars. I wonder about major traffic jams at the switch-over points.

You correctly point out the major problems and conflicts presented when deciding to join at the hip these two operationally different conveyances. IMO, this will create many more problems than solutions as well as diminish the Osh experience. I'll continue to do what I've always done--WALK! It's much faster and damn good for ya. But I'm very sympathetic to those with mobility issues that this might make their experience less comfortable.

[CHICAGORANDY]

For those unfamiliar, the school buses have a single doorway, or at most two doors, with steps to climb, so passengers move thru VERY slowly. On a tram each row of 4/5 people has immediate egress just by sliding off the bench seat onto the ground. It takes mere seconds to unload a full tram of 40+ folks, same goes for loading. Since the turn around points are single lane, I can see a lot of trams stacked up behind a school bus with pedestrians and passengers clogging the grounds. A recipe for an accident or injury if ever there was one. This of course presumes the turn around stations are unchanged from last year.

For people moving efficiency, IMHO, buses need to be in a bus lane, trams in a tram lane. Creating separate stops along the routes would help too I'm thinking. I also wonder out loud about the inherent problems trying to move a school bus through the very pedestrian crowded areas like Vintage to the Tower turn-around.

[robert l]

FlyingRon, I'm one of those that can't walk all day. In 2015 my buddy and I came to A/V, I'm 70, bad knees from 46 years of construction work. My friend is 45 and very impatient so we didn't wait for the trams very much. As a result, I missed an entire day trying to recuperate at our camp site, which in itself was a long walk. When we come again, and we will, I guess we will just go our separate ways and meet up at some point. I very much appreciate all the volunteers and although there is room for improvement, it's still the greatest show on earth !
Bob

[CHICAGORANDY]

Seniors with bad knees (and YES, I'm one of them - lol) and the less than able-bodied are EXACTLY the passengers the trams are there to assist. We also carry the young (under 65), fit, able-bodied visitors who we appreciate understand when they get bumped from a tram seat to allow the first group ride priority.

[Wrongway Feldman]

From warbirds & review to ultralights it is 3,344 feet.
From the Main gate to the flight line it is 2,250 feet.
My feet hurt just thinking about.
Is there enough in the budget for one of THESE (http://pixartimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Monsters-University-Disney-World-Monorail.jpg)?
Will probably need FAA approval.

[Floatsflyer]

Is there enough in the budget for one of THESE.

Probably not, hope not. However, I would not be surprised to learn that somewhere in a file cabinet in Jack's office, there's a folder labeled "Future Disneyland-Type Plans for Year Round Oshkosh Aviation World".

[Cary]

I keep threatening to rent a 3 wheeler electric cart, but that would really label me as old, so instead I suffer through some walking and waiting for trams/buses--some knee issues but mostly now sciatic nerve pain. I bicycle to a couple of parties off airport and to the museum, and I have ridden it to the outdoor movie a couple of times, but of course bikes aren't allowed on the grounds during the day.

I don't claim any expertise in transportation issues. I like the trams, and I think generally they work out very well. I do object when someone who probably rides around on a golf cart makes the decision to cut off the trams early on the last day. One year the airshow was still going on when the trams were suddenly curtailed! Another hour would have made a big difference.

Cary

[PaulDow]

Is there enough in the budget for one of THESE (http://pixartimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Monsters-University-Disney-World-Monorail.jpg)?
I was going to try to suggest one of those aerial cable tram rides like they used to have in the Disney parks. I couldn't find any acquisition and maintenance costs for one of those though.


From the Main gate to the flight line it is 2,250 feet.
When the walk from the parking lots (especially Orange lot) is added in, you could be looking at a mile walk to get to the center of the activity.
There's not much in the way of east-west transportation. Maybe a run between the main entrance to Boeing Plaza would help. That taxiway is wide enough so the added vehicle probably wouldn't interfere with foot traffic much.

The real problem is that paying vendors wouldn't like being bypassed.

Maybe we should talk with those Hyperloop people.

[robert l]

Cary, It wouldn't bother me being called old, hell, I am, although I don't look it. LOL! In 2011 when we were there we were sitting at the food/bar tent watching the airshow when these 3 OLD dudes came ridding up on their electric scooters, complete with umbrellas. The last one ran into the second one as they parked. I told my buddy, look, it's the Hell's Angles !!! And he said, that's you in a few years. Ahhh, good times !
Bob

[martymayes]

I told my buddy, look, it's the Hell's Angles !!!

I'm in! We can get Ron W to join us and call ourselves 'right' 'acute' and 'obtuse' !!

[SteveCostello]

Howdy, folks.

This will be my second Oshkosh (last year was my first). I'll be there the full week this time... super excited.

I dropped my name in the hat for driving a tram. Looking forward to giving back to the community and meeting some fine folks.

[Cary]

Howdy, folks.

This will be my second Oshkosh (last year was my first). I'll be there the full week this time... super excited.

I dropped my name in the hat for driving a tram. Looking forward to giving back to the community and meeting some fine folks.

Expect to meet some fools, too. :rollseyes:

Cary

[Bill Berson]

Some extra flatbed trailers could be rented for the week. I wouldn't mind sitting on hay bales.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I've volunteered for several years now and my conducting work schedule for the 9 days I'm there came the other day via e-mail. A very nice mix of a.m. and p.m work which will provide lots of 'free time' to walk the grounds and enjoy the exhibits. I can hardly wait for it to begin. In truth I've never been up in a small plane in all my 68 years but I DO dearly luv me some airplanes and aviation in general and the opportunity to just be around them for a while each year is wondrous. It gladdens my aging soul.