Flying the Fisk Arrival

[Bill Greenwood]

The normal gen aviation arrival is via Ripon then Fisk to Oshkosh. For most light gen av singles the lower path at 1800 feet msl (1000 agl) and 90 knots is requested. Some people are nervous about flying that speed, even though it is only 15 miles, and worry about other traffic. I tried the speed in my B36 today and with gear down, and 17in, level at 90k was easy. I used half flaps to slow from 140 k, but didnt need any flaps to stay level at 90. about 3* nose up. 90k is probably 1.5 times the stall speed, vso of most light planes.
For twins,etc, there is 2300 and 135 knots. Of course, gear down, look out the window for traffic and make a normal landing.

[FlyingRon]

Regardless of what you are flying, unless you are incapable of flying 90 knots, you should use the 90 knot procedure. The 135 knot higher procedure may let you pass over some slower traffic but you're going to just merge in with them again (most likely on base/short final to runway 36).

90 knots is an painful speed for me (Vle is 87), but I still do it (either that or I do the Warbirds arrival...but we're not going here).

[wltrmtty]

90 knots is cruise speed for some of us :-)

[Frank Giger]

90 kts is beyond the Vne for others of us!

:cool:

The point is very valid - the time to practice the procedures needed for arrival to Oshkosh is before arriving.

[DaleB]

I've been spending the past week trying to break myself of that "knob must be IN" feeling. Up and down the Platte River, 75 knots or so, 1000 or less AGL. It's actually petty relaxing, and I'm always amazed at how low the fuel burn is.

Have not observed the Swedish Bikini Team sunning themselves on a sand bar yet. Will keep you all posted if I do sight them. :)

[Bill Greenwood]

Dale, the notam says 90 knots, if you are able to do more than 75?

[DaleB]

90 is no challenge at all (nor is 75, or 100 for that matter). But if you spotted the Swedish Bikini Team sunning on a sand bar, how fast would YOU want to be flying?

:)

Seriously, I am usually trying to squeeze the last couple of knots out of the RV-12, so I just figured it was a good idea to get used to slowing it down some. The thing can fly what feels like ridiculously slowly if needed.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Actually the NOTAM says " Arrive at Ripon at 90 knots and 1,800’ (or maximum cruising speed if less than 90 knots). If unable, 135 knots and 2,300’."
and a bit later on the same page (4) " Proceed single file, directly over the railroad tracks from Ripon northeast to Fisk(10 miles). Remain at least ½ mile in-trail behind any aircraft you are following. Do not overtake another aircraft unless authorized by ATC. Do not “S-turn” to follow an aircraft;instead, break off the procedure; return to Ripon; and follow another aircraft of similar speed."

[Mike M]

Y'all do know the purpose of the VFR arrival procedure starting so far from the field, right? ATC Towers sequence and separate traffic (AIM 4-4-13 and -14). When we start far enough from the field, we do the sequencing and separation outside their Class D. When we get it worked out, their job is manageable. If we don't, they aren't responsible for the paperwork. :cool:

[L16 Pilot]

The arrival procedure works pretty well "if" everyone follows it to the letter and get sequenced properly but if a Cessna 172 is following a Piper Cub it probably raises the pucker factor. That being said I've never had trouble but I usually avoid the peak times. My understanding the first Sunday was a bit of a zoo getting in this past event.

[steve]

While we're talking about this year's event - Sunday morning arrival was a zoo because pilots were not established at 1800 feet before Ripon. They were descending THROUGH the low 1100 foot ceiling on the way to Fisk. I can only assume they were following the GPS railroad tracks on their way down to 1800'. Nothing like having an airplane just appear next to you like the Cheshire Cat.
Then there was the runway 18R left traffic approach in use (close in and descending all the time). I remember seeing at least 2 aircraft on a parallel downwind with me. I'm not sure they even came in from Fisk.

[Low Pass]

And there are those brain dead people who self directed themselves from the base or final on 27 to 18R. Their time is of course, more important.

[FlyingRon]

My one arrival this year when the NOTAM was in effect (usually I come and go several times giving rides) was while instructing Snowbird 10 how to do the procedure. He'd actually read the NOTAM months earlier.

[Mayhemxpc]

That is very cool Ron. A real Oshkosh memory. I understand from talking to those that did it that the Warbirds Arrival was also messed up on Sunday. I came in on Saturday, myself. Smooth as silk. Confirmed me in my belief that Saturday is the day to arrive and set up. (Unfortunately, I cannot afford to use Ron's technique and arrive WAY before then.)

[TedK]

While we're talking about this year's event - Sunday morning arrival was a zoo because pilots were not established at 1800 feet before Ripon. They were descending THROUGH the low 1100 foot ceiling on the way to Fisk. I can only assume they were following the GPS railroad tracks on their way down to 1800'. Nothing like having an airplane just appear next to you like the Cheshire Cat.
.
Holy Cow! That might explain why Fisk Approach seemed to be talking a lot about airplanes side by side approaching Fisk. If there were morons descending thru IMC into what is the densest traffic in the USA, then you would probably be within your rights to have a top turret gunner to deal with that threat.

i hope you filled out a NASA ASRS form so that somebody might look into this.

[Low Pass]

Holy Cow! That might explain why Fisk Approach seemed to be talking a lot about airplanes side by side approaching Fisk. If there were morons descending thru IMC into what is the densest traffic in the USA, then you would probably be within your rights to have a top turret gunner to deal with that threat.

i hope you filled out a NASA ASRS form so that somebody might look into this.I'm not being sarcastic, but I am very curious that this surprises you. Have you make the arrival to Oshkosh on a busy day?? Having airplanes appear on the Ripon to Fisk leg - either out of the clouds, your blind spot, or beaming in from nowhere - is typical and should be expected. It's a three dimensional event. You would be well advised to be looking above, below and all around.

Attached is a screen shot of the traffic 45 nm se of Oshkosh. I turned off the traffic not long after this pic was taken.

5680

[TedK]

I've only flown the Fisk approach four times so I still count myself as a OSH neophyte. But one of those times was with low ceilings. And yes, I get it that traffic comes from everywhere, but there is absolutely no excuse for a let down through the goo under VFR anywhere, much less anywhere near the OSH VFR arrivals area.

Why does this surprise me? Because it is flat out illegal and an absolutely egregious violation. The great majority of those headed to and from OSH play by the rules and view the sky as something we share with our fellow aviators. If there are those who think they can simply plunk down thru the goo with impunity, then they need to have their wings clipped before they clip someone else.

[Floatsflyer]

I'm not being sarcastic, but I am very curious that this surprises you. Have you make the arrival to Oshkosh on a busy day?? Having airplanes appear on the Ripon to Fisk leg - either out of the clouds, your blind spot, or beaming in from nowhere - is typical and should be expected. It's a three dimensional event. You would be well advised to be looking above, below and all around.

Attached is a screen shot of the traffic 45 nm se of Oshkosh. I turned off the traffic not long after this pic was taken.

5680

This is precisely the reason we've been flying into Green Bay for many years. No fuss, no muss, no anxiety, no aggravation, no scared s**tless, no mid-airs, no memorizing a 50 page notam, no one calling my family to say I won't be coming home.

I flew into Osh in 1981, don't remember much except I was much, much younger at that time and thought I was invincible(and had no kids)so being one of a thousand locusts in the sky at once I deemed pretty damn exciting.

I understand why you turned off your active traffic. I have it on my PFD and MFD and with that
level of overwhelming, I would have done likewise and just looked outside 100%. It's a fantastic tool to have when it's manageable. I wonder also why you didn't declutter to just show the targets?

[dougbush]

Attached is a screen shot of the traffic 45 nm se of Oshkosh. I turned off the traffic not long after this pic was taken.

5680
Screenshots like that are extremely misleading, because the icons are not to scale. Anyone looking at that area in real life would see empty sky with the occasional aircraft.

[Low Pass]

This is precisely the reason we've been flying into Green Bay for many years. No fuss, no muss, no anxiety, no aggravation, no scared s**tless, no mid-airs, no memorizing a 50 page notam, no one calling my family to say I won't be coming home.

I flew into Osh in 1981, don't remember much except I was much, much younger at that time and thought I was invincible(and had no kids)so being one of a thousand locusts in the sky at once I deemed pretty damn exciting.

I understand why you turned off your active traffic. I have it on my PFD and MFD and with that
level of overwhelming, I would have done likewise and just looked outside 100%. It's a fantastic tool to have when it's manageable. I wonder also why you didn't declutter to just show the targets?
As mentioned by Doug, it wasn't that bad where I took the screen shot. Actually, I could only see the guys in my flight. I show it to demonstrate that planes are out there, all around. And it's a pretty interesting pic to those not knowing the scale and having used these traffic displays (can't see anyone closer than 1-3 miles).

Why did I turn it off and not adjust the filter? Because I was in a flight of seven and you can't use this type of thing to deconflict with traffic arriving at Oshkosh. Need your eyes and timely response. And being in a flight I didn't want to fool around with the settings - just turned it off (we were in route).

My limits changed this year and I'll not be arriving Sunday afternoon next time. Saturday or even Friday maybe. My concerns came at the airport, not during the arrival sequence.

As for the overall risk, it's still not that bad. 10,500 planes (is that the count this year?) arrived and left with zero mid-airs and no fatal accidents. I believe there were a couple enroute, but this isn't attributable to the large concentration of planes at the fly in.

I studied this once a few years back and based on recollection, I believe there are about 0.5 fatal accidents per year and the vast majority were at the field, on or adjacent to the runway. I recall finding no report of mid airs arriving at the show.

[Mike M]

Screenshots like that are extremely misleading, because the icons are not to scale. Anyone looking at that area in real life would see empty sky with the occasional aircraft.

Big sky, little airplane. It's worked for decades.

(sarcasm, but only a little)

[Bill Greenwood]

Sqadly there have been landing accidents at the field, bu I cant recall a fatal midair accident on either the Fisk arrival or warbird arrival in the 3 decades that I have been coming to Oshkosh, and that means despite the many stories of problms, a large number of planes fly the arrival safely. I dont think many if any of the accidents in the pattern are arrival midairs, either, not part of an act. Still, some folks seem to regard it as something out of the realm of a normal pilot. I'd rather not go all the way to Green Bay, where there may not be a "50 page notam" to memorize, but there also is no EAA convention. I would not like to add 100 mile drive every day to the EAA week. Maybe if you had a number of people and were saving a lot of money staying in G B. I looked at prices at Appleton and didnt find them a lot cheaper than Osh. I wonder if anyone flies into Oshkosh when they are going to a Packers home game to avoid cocngestion at G B.
One thing I really like at EAA is friendly and expert controllers, same at Fon du Lac, and not always true in the rest of the country.

[vaflier]

We had a near miss on very short final for 27. We had been cleared to land hit the green dot. This was about 7:10 Monday morning. Some genius flew directly over us in a 172 and dove down in front of us. He was so close we thought his tail was going to get our prop. Controllers just told him to hit the green dot and us to hit the orange one. ( Really not much else they could do so not a criticism. ). Whoever he was the belly of his plane was filthy, and his ears should have been burning because we may have said a few politically incorrect things concerning his heritage, intelligence, upbringing and I think we even insulted his dog !!!!. I truly do not think he ever saw us.

[robertc]

bu I cant recall a midair accident on either the Fisk arrival or warbird arrival in the 3 decades that I have been coming to Oshkosh.

There was a collision about four or five years ago between a PA11 and a Saratoga. The PA11 was on the arrival and in level flight and the Saratoga overtook him in a descent. The prop of the '11 hit the wheel and tire of the Saratoga and the PA11 lost about five inches off one prop blade. They both made the airport safely, but the Saratoga shut down a runway after landing because of a sliced wheel and tire, the Cub pilot found a RPM that offered the least vibration. The Saratoga pilot said the Cub hit him, go figure. Not a catastrophic collision, but one that is disconcerting. In three of the last five years that I have flown the arrival, I have had some Bozo enter the arrival between Ripon and Fisk at a 90 degree intercept and almost T-bone me each time. Got to love those guys, actually I think they give Bozos a bad name. The mayhem Sunday on the arrival was concluded safely because of great controllers, mostly good pilots that had read the NOTAM, and good fortune.