Snowbirds and the burn line?

[Jim Hann]

Hey folks,

Maybe I missed this, haven't been around "these parts" much lately (the forums.) Will the burn line be moved back for the Snowbirds like it was for the Thunderbirds? I'm hoping to park in Vintage with my Pacer but I don't want to be parked where I'll be "marooned" for the airshow on Fri-Sun. I want to be able to sit under my wing and watch the show, if I can't do that I'll make alternate plans.

Thanks!

Jim

[Floatsflyer]

This is not an official answer of course although I'm surprised you don't have one yet from the monitors. Being Canadian and having seen the Snowbirds perform many, many times at both small and large airports in the past 40 years, I feel quite safe in saying that the Thunderbirds burn line move back to the interstate experience should not apply here.

But that was in Canada where we do safety measures with common sense and decorum in mind so that the spectators have the optimum awesome experience.

[Mike M]

if one knows the aircraft speed, one may predict what the line will be.

http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/waiver/media/Air_Show_Special_Provisions_2016.pdf

[glider90]

Well this kinda sucks, the line is moving. I guess regs were different i the 70's as the line was the same all week when they were there. This means you will be pushed back and good luck getting any decent takeoff and landing photos Fri, Sat and Sunday. Glad Texas Flying Legends are flying Wednesday and Thursday....
http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/eaa-airventure-news/eaa-airventure-oshkosh/06-23-2016-temporary-crowd-line-for-snowbirds-performances-july-29-31

[Tom Steber]

Pretty much figured. Would be interesting to dig out some old home movies of when they were here last. Don't remember them needing a bigger box.

[Floatsflyer]

Pretty much figured. Would be interesting to dig out some old home movies of when they were here last. Don't remember them needing a bigger box.

Come to Canada and watch them fly where they don't need no stinkin' bigger boxes. Typical FAA bulls**t.

[hatz672]

The last time and previous to that, they didn't need a bigger area to operate. Going to happen again in 2017 because the Blue Angels are coming next year. The members with airplanes parked east of the speaker line are getting screwed. They pay the same as all the other aircraft campers and get rousted to boost the friggin' gate receipts. If you went over to the east side of the airport, there was a lot of social activity going on at the businesses and by hangar tenants-- cookouts and such-- that they had every right to do, except EAA has pretty much screwed them over with this enhanced box BS.

[Kyle Boatright]

...except EAA has pretty much screwed them over with this enhanced box BS.

I'd bet the FAA is the culprit, not the EAA (other than for inviting these acts).

[FlyingRon]

Yep, the "burn" line will be moved back to the speaker poles this year just as for the T-Birds a few years back. Yes, the Blues have a similar requirement when they were at SnF a few years ago. They evacuated half the campground, etc...

It was hoped that the lower performance trainers used by the Snowbirds would not require this (like the Breitling L-39's) but I guess the FAA had other ideas.

[Tom Steber]

I'd bet the FAA is the culprit, not the EAA (other than for inviting these acts).
Guaranteed it's the FAA.

[Antique Tower]

If you went over to the east side of the airport, there was a lot of social activity going on at the businesses and by hangar tenants-- cookouts and such-- that they had every right to do, except EAA has pretty much screwed them over with this enhanced box BS.

I heard that the EAA invited them all to a tent party outside "the box" to make up for it.....

[Byron J. Covey]

I'd bet the FAA is the culprit, not the EAA (other than for inviting these acts).

Here is the reason: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1f3ukUxYI


BJC

PS. They flew at Oshkosh with the old safety line not long before the crash.

[obmaha]

The last time and previous to that, they didn't need a bigger area to operate. Going to happen again in 2017 because the Blue Angels are coming next year. The members with airplanes parked east of the speaker line are getting screwed. They pay the same as all the other aircraft campers and get rousted to boost the friggin' gate receipts. If you went over to the east side of the airport, there was a lot of social activity going on at the businesses and by hangar tenants-- cookouts and such-- that they had every right to do, except EAA has pretty much screwed them over with this enhanced box BS.

Those "gate receipts" people who pay almost the same as an EAA membership help fund all of EAA activities. I would probably not bash the people who help fund the organization you are apart of. Just saying.

[Kyle Boatright]

Those "gate receipts" people who pay almost the same as an EAA membership help fund all of EAA activities. I would probably not bash the people who help fund the organization you are apart of. Just saying.

It is a double edged sword. The money is good, but it comes at a price to the core members.

[glider90]

I recall seeing the Snowbirds every year they were there as a kid in the 70's Still remember seeing them standing front row on a very sparse burn line compared to nowadays. I also very vividly recall the Frecce Tricolori being there in 1987.
They did a very different routine with a bunch of opposing and crossing maneuvers over the crowd. The Italians were there in 1986 (I still have my shirt, it fits my daughter now:). Their accident was just about two years later in 1988.
I though their crash caused some sweeping changes in regard to policy of energy directed towards the crowds at airshows. I will say it was a very unique and fascinating show.
Even with the box size changes, I am really looking forward to see the Snowbirds over Oshkosh again, will really bring back some memories of being a kid up there for me.

[glider90]

I found dad's slides from Oshkosh 1976. I still remember being almost five years old and watching the snowbirds from the line. Even though I am disappointed by the restrictions, I am excited to see them!

[Paul Chandler]

Very disappointed to see the burn line moved for the Snowbirds. I would have though that EAA would have learned from the reaction they got with the Thunderbirds a couple of years ago that it would not be a popular move. As a photographer it ruined the whole show as there are just many obstructions / planes / speaker poles to get decent shots of aircraft on the runways departing or arriving. Part of the attraction for me is being able to get close to runways / taxiways with no obstructions - that has been taken away every time an aerobatic team visits. The crazy thing is that moving the burn line would make no difference in the event of an problem as debris would still be spread over a wide area. The really crazy thing is moving the burn line and then allowing teams to fly over the crowd. Put the aerobatic teams first then allow crowd to move back to normal position or better still stop inviting teams that require this.

[Jim Hann]

Paul, I hear you. We need to blame the FAA for the crowd line comedy, not EAA. I do agree though that the jet teams diminish MY value of MY convention. After all, this is/was supposed to be a membership convention. All this started changing when they removed the barrier between the general public and the membership. I'll keep going but I had few reservations leaving on Thursday afternoon with my airplane although I actually parked my Vintage qualifying (1957) airplane in GAC because of other issues.

Jim

[mazdaP5]

Agreed, and I heard a lot of gripes too, from members and general public. Saw a great argument between a volunteer and a member who lost access to their Bonanza too. Patty Wagstaff cutting a ribbon? Great, except nobody saw it though. Launch and recover the Warbirds right in front of the crowd? Great, except nobody saw it. I even missed much of the Snowbirds because of it. They would approach low at show center towards the crowd, we couldn't see them until the last moment because of the 3 rows of aircraft blocking the show line.
I understand that it's the FAA call, but how about skipping on the jet teams since the members dislike it so much? I left for home 2 days early again this year, the pushed back crowd line really does take a lot of the fun out of it for me.

[Paul Chandler]

MazdaP5 - only stayed for part of the afternoon show today for the reasons mentioned - little point in trying take photos as too many obstructions low level and people standing up.

[BeagleOne]

And when they did finally let us back to the main burn line they played horrible 70s music over the loudspeakers. I went all the way down to ultralights to escape such earworms as "Afternoon Delight". It was ridiculous. I come to listen to ATC and aircraft engines, not crappy music.

[Kyle Boatright]

As I've posted before, it would be nice if there was a day where all of the unique stuff flew, with minimal "help" from the announcers. Same for the more sporty acts - I could do without all of the hoopla, and would just like to watch/listen to the airplanes without someone shouting over the PA system "THAT'S BOB UP THERE IN THE THUNDERBOLT CRUIZER. HE'S ABOUT TO DO HIS TRIPLE WILLY FLIP, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST...."

That stuff is great for the walk-in from Madison, but for the core member? C'mon. Give us our day...

"Member Day at Oshkosh, Featuring no PA Announcers and a Host of Unique Aircraft."

[mazdaP5]

As I've posted before, it would be nice if there was a day where all of the unique stuff flew, with minimal "help" from the announcers. Same for the more sporty acts - I could do without all of the hoopla, and would just like to watch/listen to the airplanes without someone shouting over the PA system "THAT'S BOB UP THERE IN THE THUNDERBOLT CRUIZER. HE'S ABOUT TO DO HIS TRIPLE WILLY FLIP, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST...."

That stuff is great for the walk-in from Madison, but for the core member? C'mon. Give us our day...

"Member Day at Oshkosh, Featuring no PA Announcers and a Host of Unique Aircraft."

That is Saturday, before the show. It's great for watching all of the arrivals, plus it's before the actual convention. My absolute favorite days are Sat-Mon, just sitting under a shady wing watching airplanes, it's the best.

[Bill Greenwood]

Kyle, I agree with you. I don't come to EAA to hear jet noise. An ideal day would be if they took all the announcers who sound like they are selling used cars and moved them to Appleton where they could have all the jets fly low approaches over them.
Just have one day at EAA where you don't need to wear earplugs and it doesn't sound like standing under the takeoff path at a major airport.
At least the mornings are pretty decent, but in the afternoon to evening it is hard to hear at a forum or presentation. I don't watch many acro acts anymore because if you get anywhere near the runway you are in the loudspeaker zone.

[smutny]

Just to get the information straight... Crowd lines are not arbitrary.

For a CAT I display (Blues, TBirds, Snowbirds, Navy or Air Force TAC Demo), the primary and secondary crowds need to be 1,500 feet from the center of the display box. There is a waiver obtainable to reduce one side to 1,200 feet.

For a CAT II display (warbirds), the aerobatic box must have a crowd line 1,000 feet from the edge. There is a waiver obtainable to reduce one side to 800 feet.

For a CAT III display (Pitts, Extra, etc), the aerobatic box must have a crowd line 500 feet from the edge. There is no waiver possible to reduce that.

These distances are determined from impact and debris scatter pattern research. Much of which was done subsequent to the Ramstein disaster in 1988.

These regs are enforced by both the FAA and Transport Canada.

It's all laid out clearly in the FAA's documentation, the 8900.1 FSIMS.

[deftone]

I heard more than one person say that the Blue Angels have OSH17 on their calendar for next year, is this true? If so, we have a year to fight for a solution to the modified burn line.

[smutny]

Yes, OSH is on their 2017 schedule. Every congested site requests the 1,200' line, if its viable and the FSDO agrees, it's been granted.

[Tom Steber]

Just to get the information straight... Crowd lines are not arbitrary.

For a CAT I display (Blues, TBirds, Snowbirds, Navy or Air Force TAC Demo), the primary and secondary crowds need to be 1,500 feet from the center of the display box. There is a waiver obtainable to reduce one side to 1,200 feet.

This certainly seems to be enforced for the Thunderbirds and Snowbirds. But, I watched the whole FA-18 demo from the regular burn line on Thursday. The same routine he flew on Friday (when the other burn line was in effect). And the F-16 demo the days before that.
I agree that if something went wrong that the extra space probably wouldn't help a lot. But it's really hard to put the Jeannie back in the bottle. I'm afraid those rules are here to stay.
As far as jet teams go, I don't mind seeing them once in awhile but I don't want to see them every year at Oshkosh! Please give us extended homebuilt and vintage reviews in stead. And yes, less narration please. We all know those stories by heart now. In fact we can correct them when they make mistakes.