Paint Repair

[RCS]

I have 40 year old Ceconite fabric which has been painted over a couple of times according to the log book history (as best I can figure). There are a few areas where the paint is cracking and lifting from the fabric which I would like to repair. I have many questions about the best repair procedure, the first of which is how to determine what type of paint was used for the top coat… is there any way to make this determination? Any good resources to guide me through the repair process? Thanks in advance for any help! --Rob

[Matt Gonitzke]

What is the condition of the fabric? Does it still pass a tension test? If it were mine, I would recover it. Otherwise, you'll spend all this time fixing the paint on one area, only to have another crack and lift. The 40-year old fabric is probably just about on borrowed time anyway.

[RCS]

The fabric is good and I am trying to postpone a re-cover job for a few more years. The problem areas are isolated around the door and at this point seem to be more cosmetic than structural. I am trying to build up my knowledge and skill set and thought taking on some minor repairs would give me some good experience. I'm just not sure how to get started. Thanks for the feedback.

[gbrasch]

Hate to ask what sounds like a stupid question, but is they type of paint used not in the logbook?

[RCS]

Unfortunately there is no log entry beyond "entire plane repainted this date". The date being 1992.

[gbrasch]

You might shoot this guy, John Stahr a question, he is a really paint expert: jstahr@stahrdesign.com

[FlyingRon]

Punch testing is not an approved way to test ceconite (and the other polyester fabrics). If the paint has been compromised to the point where the fabric is exposed (especially if the plane has been ourside), you've got a pretty strong chance that it's no longer airworthy.

However, in this case it's probably not structural. The official stuff to paint ceconite is Randolph products but even then it can be one of several products in that line. Of course, people paint fabric with just about anything from old butyrate dope to Imron so you'll need to do some investigating. Someone who's painted fabric before probably can guess given the flex and sheen what you've got though.

[stewartb]

Chances are it's dope. Look from the inside to see what color the nitrate was. Blue is Randoproof, green is Superflight Dacproofer, and there's an outside chance you'll find pink Stits. Silver is probably silvered butyrate and topcoat is likely colored butyrate. The best test would be to see if some butyrate reducer works to remove it. If it was top coated with a urethane nothing will cut it including MEK. Dope can be softened and recoated using rejuvenator and more dope. Urethane would require scuffing to promote adhesion of an added coat and I wouldn't expect good success with it regardless of whether the undercoat is dope or Stits. If you have Stits Polytone it's simple to fix, just look up the Polytone process instructions on-line. http://www.randolphaircraft.com/butysolv-rejuvenator.html http://polyfiber.com/stits/

[martymayes]

Any good resources to guide me through the repair process? Thanks in advance for any help! --

A paint guy can usually tell my looking if it is dope, lacquer or enamel. If you just want a quick and dirty spruce up, sand it and paint over with enamel w/flex additive.

[1600vw]

I have done some of these repairs on my airplane. I did this 5 years ago and am now doing another section. What I did 5 years ago looks like I just did it yesterday. This is on an EAB but covered in the same fabric as yours. I also had to do a few repairs to said fabric. It had a 3 inch tear in the fabric on one spot. Some knuckle head climbed under her with a screw driver sticking out of his back pocket. He then tore the fabric on said screw driver.

I looked in the logs and had no idea what was used or the system used on this airplane. I went ahead and used the Stewards System for all repairs. After 5 years it has held up just fine and looks like i just did these repairs. Now I needed some paint. What to do? I find a couple pieces I can remove with the color I want and head down to the local auto paint supply house. I walk in and start talking to the sales man or the dude behind the counter. We both have no idea what we are looking at so we grab a chip chart. We find a color that looks close and he mixes some paint up and put this paint in a rattle can for me. This is a two part paint. Meaning I must activate the paint in order to use it. On the bottom of the can there is a plunger you push to release the hardener into the paint. I take this back and apply said paint to the repairs. It turns out awesome. I mean really nice. After 5 years it looks just as it did the day I painted it. The color match was perfect. You can push on that fabric as hard as you like and it does not crack nor has it cracked. It even had some ring worm in the paint I covered. None of this came back after 5 years. I doubt it returns.

Now I am doing the trim. I am doing this or in the process now. I will get some pics. Those who say you can not repaint a fabric airplane or that it will not hold up, well I say you can and have the proof to show you. I did it. It also took very little paint to cover the fabric doing this. One can of paint goes a very long way. I watched him mix this can of paint. there is not much paint in that can, a few ounces and that can goes a very long way. Again I will post some pics. I will also make a very short video showing what I am doing. Tony

[1600vw]

IMHO with how auto are made today, paints had to change to keep up with them. meaning back in the day auto's were made from thick steal. If you got even the smallest of a ding the paint would chip. Today's auto is made from flexible material. You can get a ding and pop it out and the paint will not chip or crack. Why? Because today's paint is not made from the solids of yesterday's paint. It flexes more without cracking. I believe you can do things today with this paint that you could not do before. It also took the paint manufacturers some time to catch up or make their paints flexible to meet the demands of today's auto. IMHO. Here are some pics of what I am doing. Again the yellow you see is 5 years old. Or was applied fiver years ago over the paint that was already on this airplane. I sanded and painted said area. I have no idea why, But I can not attach any files or pics. I also can not make paragraphs. This site is putting everything in one long text message. Annoying is what this is.

[1600vw]

The tips on my prop are being painted to match the airplane. This is going to look good when I am done. I wish i could post some pics. I will post a video onto youtube and put a link up to this posting.

[RCS]

This is great feedback! Tony, your story gives me hope that I can perform some repairs and get a few years out of the fabric before the recover job... thank you! Here is what I have done since my original post. I pealed some paint off of the fabric where it was cracking. Then I soaked a portion of the paint in MEK - it did not melt or even soften. It just curled up (see pictures). All of the previous paint and dope melted away. I have come to the conclusion that the topcoat (which was not documented in the logbook) is polyurethane - is there any other coating that would be impervious to MEK? So my thought is to sand down the polyurethane in the area that needs to be repaired and use MEK to remove the undercoats down to the fabric. Then start with the nitrate dope and build it back from there. While I am not too concerned about the cosmetics of the repair, I would like it to look as nice as possible. So what would be the recommendations for a new topcoat in the repair area? Really appreciate all of the great replies! --Rob

[1600vw]

If you notice on the wing I have finished the blue paint. If you look at that wing you will see it is really shiny in the area inboard off the aileron. This was repainted 5 years ago. It looks as it was painted today. I will post more video's of what I am doing. I will also include some pics showing the use of the eco-fill and how that works.

On your example I would peal all the loose paint back or off the fabric that you can. Use your finger nail or whatever to do this. This is what I do or did. Then use the eco-fill from stewards system to fill in the weave of the fabric. This is applied in many thin coats. It says on the can to spray the last coat. I don't do this. Make sure you sand between each coat. letting each coat dry well before sanding. Then paint right over this. No primer is applied over this. Scuff sand all paint before you paint and wipe everything down really well. You will be shocked how well this will turn out if you spend some time or take your time at this. Sanding is the most time consuming as is taping.

Let me also state my airplane was not done in the stewards system. But this system has work wonders in my repairs and has held up with the system that was used. i have no idea what system that was, but it was not the steward system.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxWj6xqi_8k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxWj6xqi_8k)

[1600vw]

This was repainted 5 years ago. As you can see i am pushing hard on this. This has never cracked but flexes.

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[1600vw]

Here I am pushing again on this for the second time. As you see no cracking and remember this was repainted 5 years ago.

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My Grand Daughter lending a helping hand. I see a future pilot here.

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[1600vw]

Here is a completed side. I am redoing the yellow next. I will post pics.

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[martymayes]

I pealed some paint off of the fabric where it was cracking. Then I soaked a portion of the paint in MEK - it did not melt or even soften. It just curled up (see pictures). All of the previous paint and dope melted away. I have come to the conclusion that the topcoat (which was not documented in the logbook) is polyurethane - is there any other coating that would be impervious to MEK? --Rob
That paint appears to be Imron, the DuPont brand.

Just curious what kind of plane? Homebuilt? Factory?

[1600vw]

We believe mine is also painted in Imron. But I did not use Imron to repaint it. But the paint man said this would work over Imron. So far it has or after 5 years it has held up very nicely.

[1600vw]

Speaking of the paint. I watched the man fill the rattle can with that blue paint you see that I applied. That can held only a few ounces of this paint. I painted a lot of area on this airplane with those few ounces. I also did not use multi coats. This was sprayed one time or only one pass was made. I did this when I repaired the yellow and this was how I did the blue. Single coat is all that is needed.

My point: Doing this adds no extra weight to your airplane. You are removing just as much material in the sanding process as you are replacing. IMHO.

[1600vw]

Speaking of repairs. I had a few area's I needed to repair. I had either a hole I wanted to cover, or I cut out fabric that had been damaged and wanted or needed to replace this fabric. Again I used the stewards system. The green glue, then the ecko-fill. I then painted over these repairs. I used this green glue over painted fabric. I sanded the fabric down to the weave or until I could just start to see said weave in the fabric. I then applied my patch. No hole was over 4 inchs. But one patch was kinda big when I was done. I did these repairs 5 years ago and they have held up great. It looks like I did these repairs yesterday.

Here is a pic of one repair and the biggest repair I had to make. If this would have been a 4 inch hole I was repairing, the fabric would have needed to be stitched in place. None of my repairs needed this done for no holes where this big.

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[1600vw]

Looking at that pic I see something I forgot to do 5 years ago. That would be uncover those drain holes. I will do this.

Here are some pics I took inside my wing. This is how I inspect the insides of my wings or anything. I use a point and shoot camera then down load this on my laptop. I can see a lot more detail doing this. I dropped a washer and needed to find it. i found it using this camera. How many can find said washer in this pic? My wife did not see it but I saw it right away.

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Here is a close up of what I was looking for:

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[Frank Giger]

You mean they're not there to give fine balance to the wings?

;)

On Stewart's System and repairs: provided that one is working with ceconite, the plane doesn't care how tears and rips are fixed, as in every case the prep is identical, and both adhesives (poly-pro vs. stewart's) work equally well. Then it's just a matter of filling the fabric weave and painting.

[1600vw]

I liked working with the stewart's system. It has no smell and from what I understand 3M makes this glue and you can even purchase it from 3M cheaper then what its offered for aviation use. From what I understand if you compared the MSDS they are identical. I also like the ecko-fill. Again no smell and if you get it one you, water will remove it.

[martymayes]

I see a $100 bill in there!! Did you not fish that out???

[1600vw]

I see a $100 bill in there!! Did you not fish that out???

I sure did fish that out and when I did I found these. You did not see these??

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[1600vw]

More pics to come of this repainting project.

[1600vw]

After I sprayed the paint. I am also trying to destroy the 5 year old paint or the paint I applied 5 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDWqJn_x4e4

[1600vw]

Here is the product I used to do this repaint. Contact your local auto paint suppler for this product. If you can not find it through a local source contact Specialty Pant in Springfield IL. Tell them Tony Sweet told you about this. 800-747-4754

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[RCS]

Thanks for the great feedback! My plane is a Bellanca Cruisemaster - production bird - fabric fuselage and wooden wing. Tony, I really appreciate the tip on the custom spray paint and for the video you posted. I've never heard of this product. I'm going to check it out and call your supplier if nobody in my area carries this. --Rob

[1600vw]

Not a problem. Remember you can put any paint in that can or the paint you like can go into that can. Send them this paint if you have it or get it from them. Either way they can put said paint in these cans. I am going in today for one more can of the blue and yellow. The yellow paint I supply. Five years ago when I did the first repair I purchased a quart of this paint. I am glad I did for Jim told me that they do not make this paint today. He would have to match the color with another brand of paint. I am going to purchase a quart of the blue.

Tony

[Matt Gonitzke]

Thanks for the great feedback! My plane is a Bellanca Cruisemaster - production bird - fabric fuselage and wooden wing. Tony, I really appreciate the tip on the custom spray paint and for the video you posted. I've never heard of this product. I'm going to check it out and call your supplier if nobody in my area carries this. --Rob

Is the mechanic that does your annuals comfortable with you using a non-approved paint and/or process on your certificated airplane?

[RCS]

Hi Matt... I understand your point and will be discussing the matter with my A&P before doing anything. However my intention is to use the correct process up through the first topcoat. Thanks to a lot of good feedback on this forum, and considerable investigation on my part, I have determined that I have Ceconite fabric which has one enamel topcoat and one Imron topcoat over the enamel. I am not sure if the Imron is really approved or not, but it's been on this airplane for 20+ years and has passed many annual inspections. All I want to do at this time is perform some repair work (using the approved process for Ceconite) and match the topcoat appearance as closely as possible. Do you think this will be legal or are you suggesting the entire fabric/paint work on the entire aircraft is questionable? Thanks for your feedback!

[Matt Gonitzke]

I am not aware of any STC that lets you put Imron over fabric, and that paint is likely part of your problem. It gets very hard and brittle after some years, which is not a problem on a car body because it doesn't flex very much in comparison, but on fabric, this will cause it to crack. To repair it legally, you have to uses all products from an approved process, i.e. Poly-Fiber, Randolph, Stewart Systems, etc. That won't make your entire paint job legal though. I bet your mechanic doesn't even know it was painted with Imron unless he went 20 years back into the logs the first time he did your annual. At the end of the day, you have to make him happy.

If I remember correctly, the Stewart Systems process can be used to repair any other process; I am not sure if that is also true with the others.

[stewartb]

Today the fabric cover STCs limit what coatings can be used but that wasn't the case 20 years ago. Lots of planes had Imron applied and as long as it wasn't laid on too thick it worked just fine. Enamel would concern me a lot more than urethanes. About 9 years ago I covered my certificated PA-12 in Ceconite and used white dope for the primary color. That was compliant with the STC. I used red Imron for the trim color and that plane is a beauty. Keep in mind that today's Imron and similar auto paints are not what they used to be. Low VOC, high solids, and high build are what car painters use. That's not good for fabric airplanes. Any good automotive paint store can load paint into a spray can but you're getting a one part paint, not a catalyzed urethane like Imron. 2-part paints require induction time to cook and then have a relatively short pot life. That's also true of approved fabric coatings like Aerothane and Ranthane.

[1600vw]

I am not aware of any STC that lets you put Imron over fabric, and that paint is likely part of your problem. It gets very hard and brittle after some years, which is not a problem on a car body because it doesn't flex very much in comparison, but on fabric, this will cause it to crack. To repair it legally, you have to uses all products from an approved process, i.e. Poly-Fiber, Randolph, Stewart Systems, etc. That won't make your entire paint job legal though. I bet your mechanic doesn't even know it was painted with Imron unless he went 20 years back into the logs the first time he did your annual. At the end of the day, you have to make him happy.

If I remember correctly, the Stewart Systems process can be used to repair any other process; I am not sure if that is also true with the others.

Correct and why I used it. No other system could be used or mixed with another system. The Steward system cares less what system you have. I contacted the builder of my airplane. He said that original paint was Imron. He forgot what products he used in doing the fabric work, but did know the paint was imron. But he applied this so very thin. Hit it a couple times, meaning sand back and fourth two times with some 400 grit wet dry, and you have cut through the paint to the under coat or fabric if no under coat.

[1600vw]

Speaking of products used. I purchased a Legal Eagle that was built by an Engineer who worked for Boeing. He built 7 airplanes. He loved to build. But anyway. To keep this airplane lite or as lite as possible, he only used the ecko-fill on the fabric. He put 3 very then coats with a foam brush then sprayed the last coat, as the instructions. It looked to be painted in gray, but it was only ecko-fill.

I do not spray the last coat using ecko-fill. On the little repairs I am doing I put it on with a foam brush. Just one heads up to anyone doing this. Keep this product stirred very well. Do not put it on thick. Once it dries it is impossible to remove any lumps or bumps. I forgot this and put it on too thick in this repair I am doing now. Boy am I fighting this now. I had to take a dremel with a sanding disc and am still having a hard time sanding these spots flush. This stuff is like sanding steal.

[stewartb]

Back to the original question. 40 years on Ceconite? Are you sure it's Ceconite? The OP says cracking and lifting of paint. You need to apply silver to protect the fabric. That's more important than any cosmetic color coat. At 40 years that fabric is well past it's life expectancy and exposing it to UV now is the worst thing you can do. Spraying it with a rattle can top coat is not the place to start. ALL dacron fabrics require UV shielding under the top coat. Get off the internet and go talk to your mechanic about how to repair your fabric correctly.

[1600vw]

I agree, you must have good fabric nothing will make bad fabric good except replacement of said fabric. But saying just because its 40 years old the fabric is trash. I know some airplanes flying with fabric over 40 years old. But these airplanes spend every min they are not being flown in a hangar. None sit outside when not in use.

[1600vw]

If I was going to repaint a complete air frame or airplane. I would use tape as one uses a wax system on their body to remove unwanted hair. I would put tape on the fabric and remove, removing all the old paint that is not holding onto the fabric. I would then use the steward system to repair and repaint the fabric. If your fabric is bad you will need new fabric. If the paint is bad and the fabric is good, I would repaint doing this method and only on experimental airplanes. Those that fly GA type airplanes, they must follow the regs.

My airplane looks awesome or so much better then it did before I started. I will post pics later of the complete airplane.

1600vw

[1600vw]

Here are some pics of how she turned out. Video to come.

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[Frank Giger]

Very nice.

Masking for crisp lines is an art form in its own right!

[1600vw]

Very nice.

Masking for crisp lines is an art form in its own right!

Thanks. It took some time to do that right. I even redid the fuselage. It all started because I wanted to touch up a couple small brackets. By the time I was done I had done this, and I am still not done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPAMKzCGIh8

[RCS]

Back to the original question. 40 years on Ceconite? Are you sure it's Ceconite? The OP says cracking and lifting of paint. You need to apply silver to protect the fabric. That's more important than any cosmetic color coat. At 40 years that fabric is well past it's life expectancy and exposing it to UV now is the worst thing you can do. Spraying it with a rattle can top coat is not the place to start. ALL dacron fabrics require UV shielding under the top coat. Get off the internet and go talk to your mechanic about how to repair your fabric correctly.
I appreciate your comment and I do not intend to fly the airplane if it is not airworthy. However my decision is to either make a proper repair to the fabric or to scrap the airplane. I am not going to recover it, at least not now. I have two other restoration projects I am working on and I purchased the airplane in question to have something to fly, not to have another project. I had an A&P perform a pre-buy inspection and he gave the fabric a clean bill of health. A while after I bought the plane I became concerned about the cracks in the paint which prompted me to start seeking some advice on this forum. If the fabric can be repaired legally and result in a couple more years of airworthiness, then this is what I want to do while I finish my other projects. If not, then I really have no one to blame except myself for failing to inspect the fabric more thoroughly before the purchase. I will go out and find another airplane to buy and take considerable more time with a pre-purchase inspection. If I do proceed with repairs I would of certainly build up the UV silver before any top coat would be applied. The feedback I have received on the forum has been very helpful, but of course I need to have a trusted A&P agree with whatever course of action is indicated. Unfortunately not all A&P mechanics are qualified or knowledgeable about fabric airplanes and this was my initial mistake. Really appreciate all of the good feedback!

[1600vw]

RCS find yourself an A&P that does condition inspections on experimental airplanes. he will know more about this then an A&P who only works on GA airplanes.

The steward system is compatible with any other system. I myself like this system better then any other. I am in no way an expert but have done a lot of research on this subject before I repaired my airplane as you see. I found the ecko-fill used in the steward system is applied to the fabric in very thin layers. By the time you are done you can not see the weave of the fabric. You are then painting onto the ecko-fill and not onto the fabric weave. Because of this you will not have the paint peel or lift off as you see with other systems. It can't for its attached to the ecko-fill. No way NEVER the ecko-fill will peel away from the fabric. It can't, it's in the weave not on top of said weave. It takes many coats to start to cover the weave using this ecko-fill. Its not brushed onto said fabric but brushed into said fabric. As you see in a lot of airplanes were the paint peeled. The system used did not fill the weave but was applied over said fabric and never into said fabric. It then peels away leaving nice clean fabric behind. This will NEVER happen with the steward system. You will never again see that nice clean fabric. The ecko-fill is into it and not on top of it.

[1600vw]

Very nice.

Masking for crisp lines is an art form in its own right!

While I would like to take credit for the masking. My son did most of the masking. He did the wings and tail feathers. I did the fuselage. Thanks again for the comment.