Oratex how common

[Jim Heffelfinger]

There is a thread in another forum that mentions that Oratex is the preferred fabric for Alaska Bush planes. I find that hard to believe as most Alaska planes are certified and the fabric currently doesn't have an STC. Also unless you are counting every ounce most owners would not strip off a fabric just to put on a pretty expensive new skin.

[cub builder]

There is a lengthy thread or two about Oratex over on the SuperCub forum. Some love it. Others don't. Like all coverings, there are lots of opinions. So far, the FAA has not approved it for certificated aircraft, but a number of Experimentals have used it. FWIW, it is approved for use on certificated aircraft in Canada and Europe.

I can't speak for the quality, value or longevity of the product, but one can save roughly 50% or better in the weight of covering and finishing materials. On a typical SuperCub, depending on the quality and amount of build up of the previous finish, one can save roughly 20 - 50# by using Oratex. So it is a favorite among the STOL competitors. I don't think one could truthfully say it is preferred for Alaska Bush Planes since it's not legal to use on any of the certificated planes at this point in time. Can't even say it is a favorite among E-AB Cubs or Cub Clones. But it is gaining in popularity and those that have used it seem to like it.

-Cub Builder

[1600vw]

Are these two materials similar? I am speaking of a product called Solartex.

http://shop.balsausa.com/category_s/119.htm

[rwanttaja]

There is a lengthy thread or two about Oratex over on the SuperCub forum. Some love it. Others don't.

Out of curiosity, what's the reasons given by those who don't like it? Other than price, it sounds pretty good. Got a guy in the Fly Baby group using it on his airplane, and it looks like it didn't take much time and it's looking very nice.

Ron Wanttaja

[cub builder]

Out of curiosity, what's the reasons given by those who don't like it? Other than price, it sounds pretty good. Got a guy in the Fly Baby group using it on his airplane, and it looks like it didn't take much time and it's looking very nice.

Ron Wanttaja

Mostly cause it's not what they have been using all along, so is unfamiliar. If I was needing to recover my SuperCub Clone, I would certainly want to evaluate Oratex as a potential cover for it. For me, one of the key components of this system is that it already has a base color as part of the fabric, so all you have to do for paint is spray the trim colors and paint the metal parts. That's a whole lot less painting to be done at the hangar and a lot less aggravation for my hangar neighbors. But I would have to add it up and see what the price point would be vs. working with either traditional dopes or Stewart system.

Another criticism is that the longevity of the Oratex fabric is an unknown. Much like certificated engines vs auto engines debate, we have many decades of experience with 10s of thousands of aircraft with traditional dopes, Polyfiber, and urethane finishes. Oratex makes claims of good longevity, and I have no reason to doubt them, but there simply aren't any planes out there with 30 and 40 year old Oratex, so nobody knows how well it's going to hold up to real world conditions. Recovering your plane is a huge investment of time and money to bet on an unknown. So Oratex doesn't get an immediate acceptance by all. But it does have it's up side and certainly shows good potential.

-Cub Builder

[rwanttaja]

Mostly cause it's not what they have been using all along, so is unfamiliar. If I was needing to recover my SuperCub Clone, I would certainly want to evaluate Oratex as a potential cover for it. For me, one of the key components of this system is that it already has a base color as part of the fabric, so all you have to do for paint is spray the trim colors and paint the metal parts. That's a whole lot less painting to be done at the hangar and a lot less aggravation for my hangar neighbors. But I would have to add it up and see what the price point would be vs. working with either traditional dopes or Stewart system.

Another criticism is that the longevity of the Oratex fabric is an unknown. Much like certificated engines vs auto engines debate, we have many decades of experience with 10s of thousands of aircraft with traditional dopes, Polyfiber, and urethane finishes. Oratex makes claims of good longevity, and I have no reason to doubt them, but there simply aren't any planes out there with 30 and 40 year old Oratex, so nobody knows how well it's going to hold up to real world conditions. Recovering your plane is a huge investment of time and money to bet on an unknown. So Oratex doesn't get an immediate acceptance by all. But it does have it's up side and certainly shows good potential.
Thanks, CB. I do like the process, and not having covered/painted an airplane before, the Oratex seems considerably less daunting. Folks were worried about the synthetic fabrics when they came out in the '60s, too...today, the thought of covering with Grade A Cotton wouldn't even enter most folks' minds.

The only drawback from my point of view is the expense; it's hard to justify ~$8,000 worth of covering/coloring on a plane worth ~$10,000. Though if it were a new build I'd consider it.

Ron Wanttaja

[Frank Giger]

Like Ron, I can see both the positives and the negatives.

Pro - very light weight and while a little fussy not that hard to cover with. No painting required. Enough of a track record to show that it's not dangerous to the pilot (no peeling off in flight).

Con - very expensive when compared to other covering systems. The finish in the raw isn't pristine - the edges of the tapes, for example, are really going to show as edges. Note - for a guy like me that doesn't matter (I like seeing them), but I've seen some aircraft where the pinked edges are sanded and painted in such a way as to be almost invisible.

If weight were really a huge concern - for STOL or to keep an ultralight honest - it might be a great way to go. Assuming one wasn't going to slap household latex paint on their plane, it might be a wash in the cost difference in painting - depending on the paint job one wanted, of course.

The question I have is the level of color fastness of the material. Since it's not painted, any patch is going to be the factory-fresh color and might stand out like a sore thumb against the weathered material.

[griffin800]

Other that those cons mentioned, which are to me valid, the biggest problem I have with it is the very limited choice of color. Paying that price to cover an aircraft and having to settle for very common colors would kill it for me.

Bill H.

[Dana]

Other that those cons mentioned, which are to me valid, the biggest problem I have with it is the very limited choice of color. Paying that price to cover an aircraft and having to settle for very common colors would kill it for me.

It can still be painted. You lose some of the weight savings them, but if you can use the fabric base color and only paint some trim areas, it wouldn't be that bad/


Out of curiosity, what's the reasons given by those who don't like it? Other than price, it sounds pretty good. Got a guy in the Fly Baby group using it on his airplane, and it looks like it didn't take much time and it's looking very nice.

The biggest complaint I've heard, other than the cost, is that it's not shiny... you can see the fabric texture; it's dyed fabric, not painted. And it can take a long time to arrive... I waited forever for samples for a repair (Oratex can be used to repair almost any other fabric system), and by the time they arrived I had given up and used something else. Hopefully they've got a better supply pipeline now.


Are these two materials similar? I am speaking of a product called Solartex.

http://shop.balsausa.com/category_s/119.htm

Similar, I guess, but Solartex has the heat sensitive adhesive pre-applied on the entire fabric, whereas with Oratex you paint the adhesive where you need it, let it dry, and then iron it on.

[cluttonfred]

One point of order...Oratex has the adhesive pre-applied to the fabric AND you paint the structure with it.

[1600vw]

I only asked because I have never seen or used Oratex. But I have used Solartex. I just streamlined my struts and I used Solartex to cover the fairings. The stuff is just like fabric and once torn it takes some force to keep ripping it. I had to cut it with a razor. I tried to tear off a piece and could not just rip a piece off even after a tear had started.

If this Oratex is anything like this, I like what I see. If I was recovering an airplane this would be the stuff I would use. Get it in the color you want no painting needed. I wonder how much lighter in weight this is then fabric that has been painted? Or is there any difference in weight?

[Dana]

One point of order...Oratex has the adhesive pre-applied to the fabric AND you paint the structure with it.

The fabric doesn't come with adhesive pre-applied, you pre-apply it to the fabric only where it will contact your structure. Their trim tapes and repair supplies come with pre-applied adhesive, though.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

No, this is for full size aircraft the 600 and 6000 series products. http://www.betteraircraftfabric.com/

[Lars Gleitsmann]

Thanks, CB. I do like the process, and not having covered/painted an airplane before, the Oratex seems considerably less daunting. Folks were worried about the synthetic fabrics when they came out in the '60s, too...today, the thought of covering with Grade A Cotton wouldn't even enter most folks' minds.

The only drawback from my point of view is the expense; it's hard to justify ~$8,000 worth of covering/coloring on a plane worth ~$10,000. Though if it were a new build I'd consider it.

Ron Wanttaja

Hi Ron, I dunno where the $8000 Dollar for a Bowers Fly Baby story comes from; we just sold Fabric for another Fly Baby for $3667 and its : All yellow 600, glue, rib stitch thread, straight edge tape, Silicone release paper; Wax, Cleaner, Iron & Heatgun.
Someone could conceivably buy stuff for up to 6000 bucks to put it on a Fly Baby but a careful buyer can get a Fly Baby 100% Oratex covered for the $3667 Dollars. There are so many options to choose from! 600 vs 6000 for example. A Fly Baby needs only 600 but Fly Baby customers have chosen the 6000-the Bushflying Grade, because they wanted to, not because its needed: That raises the price! An Oratex6000 Bowers FlyBaby sale was $4212 recently.
There is a lot of "Myth" on these forums when it comes to products and its much better to ask the distributor instead of seeking info on a forum.
Like we had Super Cub Clone Customers that indeed spend 10K with us for a single plane, but we have lots to offer and some people just buy it all. One can still get a Super Cub covered 100% Oratex6000 for $5008 if he wants to.
I be glad to explain it in more detail on the phone.
As of the claim about Alaska and the usage here; I dunno where the claim comes from but the highest density of Oratex customers is here and many fly out of private Airstrips into the wilderness and never see any public airport.
See here some Oratex planes; Best Regards from Alaska!
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[cluttonfred]

Ooooh, I think I'm in love. Is that an original Boeing F4B or a replica? And the red and silver Bearhawk is very classy, though I would have made the numbers silver not black. When I am actually in a position to build that VP-2 I've been dreaming about, I plan to use Oratex for the wings and tail surfaces.

Lars, since we've got you on the line, a couple of quick questions....


Are there any pros or cons to using Oratex fabric as the final finish over a plywood structure?
What about using Oratex over a composite structure?
Any advantages or disadvantages to cutting the registration numbers/letters out of Oratex and just bonding them on top of the fabric like a patch?

Cheers,

Matthew

[1600vw]

Those are some nice birds.

[1600vw]

Not to change the subject here. But that tail wheel on FHR is one strange looking tail wheel.

Do they stain or die the color into this fabric? I know on my fabric covered airplane, the paint on this fabric can crack and get ring worm. I would think this stuff would not do any of this. Another plus for using it, I believe anyway.

[martymayes]

Not to change the subject here. But that tail wheel on FHR is one strange looking tail wheel.

It's castered 180* from the normal position. Looks like one of "The Bob" tailwheels. Perfect for a Bearhawk....

[Lars Gleitsmann]

Do they stain or die the color into this fabric? I know on my fabric covered airplane, the paint on this fabric can crack and get ring worm. I would think this stuff would not do any of this. Another plus for using it, I believe anyway.

You are correct, it can not crack or flake-off or ringworm. Its a woven cloth made from a very proprietary plastic with 6 coating applied, but they are VERY thin and there are tricks that keep it flexible and all. I cannot really share how its done and cannot share much photos of the huge amount of machinery, just these few of just parts of the factory. A lot of money was spend on worldwide patents as well. We will be in Oshkosh in force and we do send out samples as well.
Regards,
Lars
5508551155095510

[Lars Gleitsmann]

Ooooh, I think I'm in love. Is that an original Boeing F4B or a replica? And the red and silver Bearhawk is very classy, though I would have made the numbers silver not black. When I am actually in a position to build that VP-2 I've been dreaming about, I plan to use Oratex for the wings and tail surfaces.
Lars, since we've got you on the line, a couple of quick questions....


Are there any pros or cons to using Oratex fabric as the final finish over a plywood structure?
What about using Oratex over a composite structure?
Any advantages or disadvantages to cutting the registration numbers/letters out of Oratex and just bonding them on top of the fabric like a patch?

Cheers,
Matthew

Hi Matthew;
The Boeing F4B is a downscaled replica, making it affordable; it has a 4 cylinder 4 stroke.
There are only pros to using Oratex fabric as the final finish over a plywood structure; in France the Jodel Robin company is doing it every day and they do not even varnish the wood on them (well I would varnish it for sure, but they are french). We have many Builders building wooden planes with Oratex. Lots of Pietenpols for example.
Oratex can be used for the composites as well, see some examples here attached (Marske Pioneer III). Iron temperature has to be limited for that, so the work is somewhat slower. Factory build carbon fiber planes in Europe are build with Oratex exclusively, they would never use any Dacron or Ceconite etc.
Again only advantages to cutting the registration numbers/letters out of Oratex and just bonding them on top of the fabric like a patch: We have a Special Sticky-back Oratex for just that so you have it easy and quick and no need to deal with glue... at all. The Stuff can also be used for repairs.
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[Peteohms]

So I'm walking around Oshkosh a couple years ago and I walk by the Oratex booth. They were selling sample kits for $10 at the time (about 2/3 of a yard). I bought a dozen sample kits, covered my elevator on my Kitfox III using model airplane tools I already have. I even made my own tapes. Got lots of support from Lars.

Pete Christensen
Leander, TX

[ssmdive]

There is a lot of "Myth" on these forums when it comes to products and its much better to ask the distributor instead of seeking info on a forum.

No offense, but I'd rather ask people who are not going to profit from my choice than a guy that stands to make a dollar off of me.

[Lars Gleitsmann]

No offense, but I'd rather ask people who are not going to profit from my choice than a guy that stands to make a dollar off of me.

You are right with that general concept, no question about it !!! - Its just when looking for advice on how to use a unique and very different product, its better to ask the seller/salesman than to fish around for information on these forums. Beyond that, we do have many customers who are agreeable to talk to interested new customers if they are either local guys or if they have the same type of airplane. So we are thus allowed to bring new buyers in contact with old buyers who have "done the Oratex"... That service might be a rare one, but people really appreciate it. We can also often email out photos of details of the airplane type in Oratex.
See what we fear most is that an Oratex user will use advice from a forum about the use of Oratex and then the not applicable Ceconite opinion will lead to ugly results with the Oratex.
Best Regards from Alaska,
Lars

[Lars Gleitsmann]

Oratex 6000 by BetterAircraftFabric.com is now FAA certfied for all Maules and Huskies;

STC Number:SA03819NY


Description of the Type Design Change:
Installation of Oratex 6000 covering system


Status:
Issued, 10/20/2016
There is also another FAA STC to cover various gliders; meanwhile in Canada 137 types of planes are certified to use Oratex; Pipers, Stinson, Fairchild, etc etc...
Regards from Alaska. Hope a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year has been had...
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[Jim Heffelfinger]

Thanks Lars,
I am glad to see the broadening "official" acceptance for your product. As product volume increases will we see a pricing change due to economy of scale?
Jim

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Follow on question: Oratex glue - can it be used with common polyester fabrics? How does it compare with EkoBond (Stewarts)?

[Lars Gleitsmann]

Follow on question: Oratex glue - can it be used with common polyester fabrics? How does it compare with EkoBond (Stewarts)?

Hi Jim,
Yes our Oratex glue can glue the common Ceconite -or under whatever trade-name it shows up. I started Patching Ceconite with Oratex Glue and Fabric in 2008 and Stuff is holding together to this day...- Thats about all I can say on that issue. Comparing it to Ekobond; Oratex glue is 100% FuelProof !!! - That should be difference "enough" but its also much stronger. There is a good Kitplanes Magazine Article of Dan Horton where he evaluates our Oratex-glue-strength in great detail. Let me see how I can share that article with you...

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Netflix Plane Resurrection Installment # 3 the DR1 project
https://www.netflix.com/watch/80133196?trackId=13752289&tctx=0%2C2%2Cd3ba389f-4178-4c43-b56d-be75741b6e9d-140281087

[Lars Gleitsmann]

Hi to All,
here some news that will help out many that want to keep their vintage planes flying without spending big money on hiring the spray painting done:
Oratex is now certified in the USA for Pipers, Stinsons, Aeronca Chief's, all Maules and Huskies, too.
We have also gotten Field approvals for types not yet on the AML.
We now also have a more interactive presence on Facebook as a public Group " BetterAircraftFabric " where we showcase planes and the use of the product. Customers are posting there as well...
Best Regards from Alaska,
Lars

[L16 Pilot]

Interesting Chiefs but not Champs.