Why I've changed my mind on the new Youth Protection Policy

[Jeff Point]

While I have been strongly against the new YPP, both on this forums and at the local level, I believe that the program has been sufficiently repaired that I can now support it. To be clear, it is far from perfect, but it is at least acceptable to me and I will comply with it in order to continue to fly YE after May 1. This was not a certainty as recently as last week, and I was strongly considering dropping out of the program entirely. I know that many others are going through the same thought process.

The changes that have made this program acceptable to me are:

1. The recognition that a one-size-fits-all policy is unworkable.
2. Removal of the SSN requirement for background checks. This does not eliminate the risk of ID theft following a data breach, but it does mitigate it.
3. Rescinding the overly bureaucratic, confusing and downright contradictory restrictions on photography.
4. Removal of the requirement for all ground crew to comply with YPP if they volunteer above certain time thresholds.
5. The indirect lowering of the onerous paperwork burden that would be placed on the chapters to show compliance with #4. This was never fully recognized by HQ, another clear sign that they are out of touch with the real world of YE.

I am still deeply unhappy with how this program was rolled out and the poor communication from HQ. EAA will lose membership and YE will lose support over this, and these wounds are completely self-inflicted. I don't think I'm overstating things when I say that whoever at HQ was responsible for this debacle (and I don't mean Jack) needs to lose their job. In the post-Hightower era, EAA can ill afford these sort of missteps. Yes, it's that important, and in this member's opinion EAA is ill served by those in senior leadership who foisted this upon the organization.

Thank you for indulging this rant. I look forward to the continued success of EAA and of YE, and I support Jack and the board in the difficult decisions that will be needed to ensure that success.

[Mayhemxpc]

Jeff,

You make good points that it is no longer as bad as it was. It is, however, still poorly thought and and worse executed.

-- It still needlessly exposes PII in the form of a background check. (Note, the original background check system developed for other organizations came about before there was a DOJ SOR database. This now eliminates almost all need for an intrusive, risk laden, and statistically unsupported background check.)

-- Although I am all in favor of training, the training program is inadequate. The training did NOT take 15-20 minutes. I completed it in 5 minutes flat. Now part of that may be because I have gone through similar training several times now, but that also means I know that the EAA training does not adequately address the things we need to know to avoid or identify problems before they happen. That and there is at least one question for which no correct answer is offered. There is, however, an obviously politically correct choice. This is negative training.

-- although I commend dropping the background check requirement for certain ground staff, what makes pilots a higher risk, requiring background checks, than these ground staff volunteers?

-- I give credit to EAA management for the changes that have been made, but I still believe that they should stop the program until it has been thoroughly vetted, checked, and tested.

I appreciate the changes that are made, but it still has a long way to go. My chapter has its first YE event in a few weeks -- before the deadline. After that I will carefully consider whether to submit and continue to push for a better system or push until the system is fixed before I resume participation.

The only thing necessary for something undesirable to become inevitable is if too many people accept inevitability and let it happen. In reality, as columnist Norman Stone once noted: "inevitability has a rather bad track record."

[Jeff Point]

I can't much disagree with anything you said Chris. I hope they continue to work on fixing this to your (and everyone else's) satisfaction. In the mean time, let's direct our energy at fixing the real problems within EAA management. At the end of the day this YPP and all of it's associated drama is merely a symptom of the larger problem.

[combahee]

Why does the EAA feel a need to go through all this, particularly as it applies to the YE program? They still have not answered this to everyone's satisfaction.
The background check will tell them nothing. Convicted offenders are already prohibited from being around children. If caught they go to jail. The background check puts our information into the hands of a third party vendor, and the EAA. Safeguards are not known. What if there is a breach? This is supposed to be repeated every 3 years!
If there is a data breach, how is the EAA going to mitigate it? When my information was stolen from the State, they provided me with multi- year monitoring.
If something was to turn up on a background check the EAA will review the matter. Who is reviewing this, and what qualifications do they have?
The two deep leadership is still in place. Basically two people who do nothing more than monitor the activities. What if there isn't enough to fulfill this role on the ground? Do we cancel the flights?
What protection is the EAA providing me the pilot?
I don't care how many background checks and online courses we do, we, the volunteers and EAA, can and will be subject to suits and incrimination. This whole thing is like charging windmills. The EAA wants protection but offers no protections to the volunteers and pilots? How about an insurance policy that covers us and defends us if there is a suit?

[Mayhemxpc]

... In the mean time, let's direct our energy at fixing the real problems within EAA management. At the end of the day this YPP and all of it's associated drama is merely a symptom of the larger problem.

:thumbsup:!!!

[Jeff Point]

Why does the EAA feel a need to go through all this, particularly as it applies to the YE program? They still have not answered this to everyone's satisfaction.
They'll never answer it to everyone's satisfaction, however they have answered it to my satisfaction, and that's why I started this thread.

To EAA- since concerns over the background check and identity theft seem to dominate the reaction, perhaps as an olive branch you could work on negotiating a discounted corporate rate on a service like LifeLock. That might help ease some people's fears and would be a good gesture of goodwill to start the healing process.

[WeaverJ3Cub]

I agree Jeff. It's an unfortunate necessity in our times and they have fixed it well enough.

However, I went through the training before the SSN requirement was rescinded. I'd REALLY like to get that purged from the database but can't get a response from EAA. I work in IT and know that no system is impervious to attack. ID theft is a big concern. I feel very compromised.

Sure it was "my fault" for taking the training but I naively didn't think they'd back down and wanted to start flying YE this year.

So, I'm happy with where it is, but not where it was. :(

[Eric Cernjar]

I agree Jeff. It's an unfortunate necessity in our times and they have fixed it well enough.

However, I went through the training before the SSN requirement was rescinded. I'd REALLY like to get that purged from the database but can't get a response from EAA. I work in IT and know that no system is impervious to attack. ID theft is a big concern. I feel very compromised.

Sure it was "my fault" for taking the training but I naively didn't think they'd back down and wanted to start flying YE this year.

So, I'm happy with where it is, but not where it was. :(

I don't have all the details yet, but your SSN is going to be purged so that it is not at all connected to the info that you submitted. I can provide you more detailed info on that if you are interested, but we are taking care of that concern.

Thanks,
Eric

[dusterpilot]

I don't have all the details yet, but your SSN is going to be purged so that it is not at all connected to the info that you submitted.
Will that apply to EVERYONE who submitted their SSN before the change?

[Eric Cernjar]

Will that apply to EVERYONE who submitted their SSN before the change?

Yes it will.

[Mark van Wyk]

Bravo to Jeff and the rest of us who have decided to stick with EAA Young Eagles program. Thanks, Jeff, for starting an upbeat, positive thread. Those of us who remain who agree to comply with the new Youth Protection policy, let's build a newer, better YE program!

[WeaverJ3Cub]

Very good to hear. Thanks.

[Jkan]

I am still deeply unhappy with how this program was rolled out and the poor communication from HQ. EAA will lose membership and YE will lose support over this, and these wounds are completely self-inflicted. I don't think I'm overstating things when I say that whoever at HQ was responsible for this debacle (and I don't mean Jack) needs to lose their job. In the post-Hightower era, EAA can ill afford these sort of missteps. Yes, it's that important, and in this member's opinion EAA is ill served by those in senior leadership who foisted this upon the organization.

Thank you for indulging this rant. I look forward to the continued success of EAA and of YE, and I support Jack and the board in the difficult decisions that will be needed to ensure that success.

Jeff, for your informaton, Jack Pelton, the Board of Directors and senior leadership, all approved this reckless and irresponsible program which will do rereptable harm to the Young Eagles Program, and for all of us who live in the real world of reality, all senior personal from the bottom up (and that means Jack) need to lose their jobs.
To support the people who OK'ed this travisty, in their attempt to repair it is likened to the "inmates correcting conditions at the asylum." It also clearly shows talking out of both sides of ones mouth, which sounds very much like a part of your post, along with a reason for the post, may have came straight from Mr.Pelton's office. Otherwise it makes no sense. In fact, a part of your post is very close, word for word, to a section I relayed to Mr. Pelton, last month.
We firmly believe, that Mr. Pelton and many board members, have been and are continuing to try to cover their rear ends in this matter. We believe they are continuing to look for puppets to help in this matter.
It's time to clean house at headquarters. We are extremely embarrassed to be members of this organization and will not stand to have the most perfect program humanly possible, the Young Eagles Program, to be torn apart by the current group of EAA officers. I, as one who truly and honesty does care about the Young Eagles Program, will not stand idly by and watch it being torn from all angles, as we are beginning to see already.
We, also, thank you Jeff, for starting this thread and posting your concerns as well.

Jay

[Jeff Point]

I think this is the first time I've ever been accused of being a puppet for EAA management. Thanks, I needed a good chuckle.

[Frank Giger]

I'll see your sock puppet and raise you a shill.

That EAA logo you use as an avatar was provided to you by the organization, wasn't it? Certainly you didn't pay for it, did you?

Okay, seriously, the whole thing is yet another hoop to jump through in order to help out. Since I don't own a certified aircraft, I don't have much of a dog in the hunt, but I don't mind being part of the ramp crew - which means I'll have to do the whole clearance screen. The removal of the SSN and most of the paperwork puts it into "dumb" but not "evil" requirements.

Btw, what is the clearance level? Is it code worded, too, as it only applies to one operation within the organization? I vote for Secret/Squirrel.

[Jkan]

I think this is the first time I've ever been accused of being a puppet for EAA management. Thanks, I needed a good chuckle.

I am very sorry, Jeff, if I offended you. Believe me, that was in no way my intentions, as one can be see if one reads every word in my post. I do, however, respect your opinion, but must disagree.
I must thank you, and I do from the bottom of my heart. You have helped me show the destructive nature of The Young Eagles Protection Program. Rather than helping to continue the cementing together of the EAA membership, the ruling class at headquarters has decided to support a program which in fact is tearing the membership apart. So sad, very depressing. Young Eagle pilots, grounds personnel, volunteers, and the EAA membership, as a whole, have up until now been the most perfectly run,most tightly and dedicated group anywhere.
Thanks again, Jeff, and the best to you and yours.
:)

[rwanttaja]

I'll see your sock puppet and raise you a shill.Btw, what is the clearance level? Is it code worded, too, as it only applies to one operation within the organization? I vote for Secret/Squirrel.
Secret/Squirrel/NoFun....

Ron Wanttaja

[Jeff Point]

No offense taken Jay, all in good fun. I've got pretty thick skin.

[Bret Steffen]

I have posted updates on the numbers of folks who have done the training and background checks so far on two of the other threads if folks are interested in that.

We are hosting a webinar on the youth protection policy on Monday, March 14 if any of you are interested.

Bret

[jclark]

As one of the members of the Board, I can assure you that we are not trying to cover any parts of our anatomy.

We are though, trying to do what is needed for the organization. The times that we are in place certain responsibilities upon us and thus require actions that we too find filled with points of pain.

I assure you that we have had much discussion and continue to discuss ways to deal with a complicated situation.

Official positions on the matter will always come from management. I am just saying that many of us Board Members ALSO fly Young Eagles. We have had concerns ourselves. We have listened to concerns. And management continually works to minimize such.

James

[jclark]

I have posted updates on the numbers of folks who have done the training and background checks so far on two of the other threads if folks are interested in that.

We are hosting a webinar on the youth protection policy on Monday, March 14 if any of you are interested.

Bret

Thanks Bret!

I will try to plug in. And I hope those with questions here will do so as well.

James

[Jeff Point]

I will try to plug in. And I hope those with questions here will do so as well.
Just don't ask any questions in the debrief CB.

[Mayhemxpc]

I have changed my mind…and then I changed it back again. I objected, first to the SSN requirement, and then as I looked at it and thought about it from a risk management perspective, I found more to object about it. Over the past few weeks and participating in the forum discussions, I thought that they are making an effort, if not enough, to work through the issues. I already took the training (which also needs serious improvement) and was ready to go back in and go through the background check...

Then I saw the posting of the open ended authorization participation gives to AmericanChecked. Unbelievable. This is not a one time -- or even once eery three years check with very limited authorizations. It is a complete surrendering of any and all personal information and records for any purpose whatsoever. THEN EAA decided to close all further discussion. So I changed my mind back again.

YES I want to support the program. YES I understand that no program is perfect at its inception. YES I want to work from within to help make things better. NO NO NO, I will not "open my kimono" for unlimited and unrestricted access to my personal information.

Change the authorization statement to make it consistent with the limited purpose for which EAA describes and don't shut off discussion. If EAA management does this, THEN I will change my mind again and participate.

[vaflier]

Unfortunately the closing of the other thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I am sure that I am not alone. If honest open discussion to voice concerns is not allowed then there are much bigger problems in EAA than the poorly thought out Young Eagles Program. It would seem that those who have concerns and are asking for change have been none too politely told to , SHUT UP AND GO AWAY !. At least this was how I felt when I read the last post in that thread. I have been sitting on the fence and hoping sufficient changes to the new program would occur so that I could willingly support it. I think my mind has been made up for me. What a shame it is to witness the probable demise of such a great program.

[Jkan]

Clearly there is a major problem at headquarters. We were aware of this for some time, but the action today clearly tells us to "just go away". Headquarters will do as they please and if the heat gets to bad, they will simply get out of the kitchen.

[Copapilot]

Change the authorization statement to make it consistent with the limited purpose for which EAA describes and don't shut off discussion. If EAA management does this, THEN I will change my mind again and participate.

The document at the link below is well worth reading. In short, the privacy rights concerns of volunteers being subjected to background checks are well-founded, and recognized as valid concerns at the national level.

https://www.privacyrights.org/volunteer-background-checks-without-giving-up-privacy (https://www.privacyrights.org/volunteer-background-checks-without-giving-up-privacy)

Specifically referencing the quote above, read in the Tips for Volunteers section, Tip #4.

"4. Object to signing open-ended notice and consent forms."

And, while EAA evidently has followed some of the recommendations for how organizations should proceed with background checks, they haven't followed all of them.

[lnuss]

Unfortunately the closing of the other thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I am sure that I am not alone. If honest open discussion to voice concerns is not allowed then there are much bigger problems in EAA than the poorly thought out Young Eagles Program. It would seem that those who have concerns and are asking for change have been none too politely told to , SHUT UP AND GO AWAY !.

Perhaps you didn't read that post thoroughly. They didn't say shut up and go away -- they just said let's do discussion in a newer (and shorter) thread. Note the following quote from that post:


Because of this we’ll be locking this thread and encourage everyone to join the conversation in one of the more recent threads, or feel free to contact us directly with remaining comments or questions.

Emphasis mine.

To my mind, locking a 75 page thread while encouraging the use of other threads isn't a bad idea. 75 pages is awkward to roam through, not for adding a response or reading the latest post, but for trying to keep up with all that was said and continue making responses that are appropriate for that thread.

[Byron J. Covey]

Perhaps you didn't read that post thoroughly. They didn't say shut up and go away -- they just said let's do discussion in a newer (and shorter) thread. Note the following quote from that post:



Emphasis mine.

To my mind, locking a 75 page thread while encouraging the use of other threads isn't a bad idea. 75 pages is awkward to roam through, not for adding a response or reading the latest post, but for trying to keep up with all that was said and continue making responses that are appropriate for that thread.

+1 on that response.

Not to be confused with my view that the EAA leadership made a big mistake in their failing to respond adequately. As the PR experts continue to advise politicians and public figures, "It isn't the initial mistake that people judge you by, but how you respond to it."


BJC

[vaflier]

[QUOTE=lnuss;54360]Perhaps you didn't read that post thoroughly. They didn't say shut up and go away -- they just said let's do discussion in a newer (and shorter) thread. Note the following quote from that post:


Actually I did read the last post several times , but clearly my gut reaction was different than yours. We all see things from different perspectives and to me it seemed very heavy handed. It was not conducive to open honest discussion and problem solving.

[Jkan]

I do agree with closing a 75 page thread, although there was very good information at the beginning. I am very curious as to the timing. Perhaps headquarters thought a cooling off time would be good, but as with so many things at EAA, it backfired. The 2 websites used for the Young Eagles Protection Program are untouchable for some reason. This is very, very curious. We need to get some discussion, with Bret on this matter.

[ssmdive]

It just goes to show that the EAA is more interested in telling the membership what to do than listening to them.

Remember this when it comes time to vote, remember this when it comes time to renew. If I didn't have to be a member of the EAA to be in the IAC, I would not be a member of the EAA. They have LONG stopped caring about the membership and have shown their true colors.

The EAA might of once been a great organization, that time has clearly passed as it has become nothing more than AOPA light and an airshow.

[cub builder]

Remember this when it comes time to vote, remember this when it comes time to renew.

You are apparently under the misconception that voting in the EAA carries any weight. Applicants for the board are screened by their connections and how much $$ they might be able to bring to the organization. If you aren't properly connected and/or can't bring in a lot of $$, you are politely thanked for trying, then told you don't stand a chance, so please go away. The only real say you have in the operation of the EAA is to decide to either pay your dues... or not.

-Cub Builder

[martymayes]

You are apparently under the misconception that voting in the EAA carries any weight. especially true if one signed a proxy at renewal.

[djenders]

Unfortunately the closing of the other thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I am sure that I am not alone. If honest open discussion to voice concerns is not allowed then there are much bigger problems in EAA than the poorly thought out Young Eagles Program. It would seem that those who have concerns and are asking for change have been none too politely told to , SHUT UP AND GO AWAY !. At least this was how I felt when I read the last post in that thread. I have been sitting on the fence and hoping sufficient changes to the new program would occur so that I could willingly support it. I think my mind has been made up for me. What a shame it is to witness the probable demise of such a great program.

The decision to close the thread really comes back to what I posted. 70+ pages of content was leading to misunderstandings by those that started on page 1 and may have not gotten deep into the thread. We want to be responsible and understanding for those members that began quoting parts of the policy that have since changed or been revised.

Moderating such conversation is always a delicate balance. It wasn't meant to offend you, but to help keep the conversation about the current policy and avoid any misunderstanding that resulted from old information. We very much support constructive conversation here on the forums.

The Young Eagles program has been safe up until this point, and EAA is dedicated to keeping it that way for our volunteers, pilots, chapters and the organization as a whole. But most importantly, for the youth that participate.

Speaking personally, I hope you continue to participate. I encourage you to call EAA or if you would like me to help connect you with someone in our Young Eagles office I'd be happy to do that. It may help answer any lingering questions you have.

But in no way did we want you to feel like "shut up and go away." As I mentioned above, we encourage conversation but also acknowledge that the misinformation the thread was spreading about elements of the policy we've since worked to change and improve.

Hope that helps clear up the decision.
Dennis

[djenders]

Emphasis mine.

To my mind, locking a 75 page thread while encouraging the use of other threads isn't a bad idea. 75 pages is awkward to roam through, not for adding a response or reading the latest post, but for trying to keep up with all that was said and continue making responses that are appropriate for that thread.

This. :)

We didn't want to continue to confuse people more with the conversation there when it had contributed to changes in the policy. Just trying to manage misinformation and make it easier on anyone that was trying to start on page one.

Thanks for understanding,
Dennis

[ssmdive]

especially true if one signed a proxy at renewal.

I never sign proxies. And if what Cub Builder said is true, that the BOD is a "good ol boys" network.... Then my thoughts about the EAA are on target.

djenders - "The Young Eagles program has been safe up until this point, and EAA is dedicated to keeping it that way for our volunteers, pilots, chapters and the organization as a whole. But most importantly, for the youth that participate. "

No, it is pretty clear the BOD was only interested in acting like they were doing something than actually doing something. Further it is pretty clear the BOD was only concerned with protecting the children (noble) and the EAA and no one else.

"Speaking personally, I hope you continue to participate."

As I have asked several times without an answer. Why should I? What benefit is participating in your program? What benefit to ME is there in jumping through these worthless hoops? Where is MY protection from the EAA?

"But in no way did we want you to feel like "shut up and go away."

Then your delivery in the YEP was not the only error in communication the EAA has made.

[djenders]

As I have asked several times without an answer. Why should I? What benefit is participating in your program? What benefit to ME is there in jumping through these worthless hoops? Where is MY protection from the EAA?



Obviously I haven't met you in person (yet), but it is clear you are very passionate about the organization and your involvement. Speaking from the heart, it's the folks like you that have drawn me to EAA for the last 30 years. It is the reason I attend AirVenture, the reason I became a member, and now the reason I work for the organization. It an absolutely amazing feeling when you see the passion come together every summer, at chapter meetings, or YE rallies. I am so proud to be a part of it.

A message board isn't always the best form of communication. I think that is why many of us have continued to encourage the members to call and talk to someone. I can truly say that many have, and it has helped them understand our reasoning, and has helped us better understand your frustration.

I don't think the benefits of participating has truly changed. Yes we are asking for volunteers to complete the check. But I do hope the passion you have for flying, and for sharing that with a younger generation is still there. Everyone here means well, EAA included. Speaking for myself, and not the organization, I don't think the background check is worthless. And I don't think EAA feels that way either.

I play out the worst case scenario, a child being hurt... and the truth is even one is too many. It is unfortunate we live in a world where that can happen. But saying we want to prevent that doesn't mean we devalue your privacy or the security of your information. Because we do care about that, as well as protecting our chapters and volunteers.

I can't say one incident or lawsuit would completely ruin the program or EAA. But I don't think it is a risk any organization can take when children are involved.

So maybe that helps you understand my personal feelings a little more. Let me ask you this, would you be willing to talk with someone at HQ? I'd be happy to set it up. Not because I don't value the conversation here, but it is clear I can't possibly address everything you are feeling with just another forum post.

I do care about how you are feeling about the policy. I just don't think another post from me will solve how you feel. So that is why I offer connecting you with someone here. I can send you a DM if you want to connect.

Best,
Dennis

[ssmdive]

Obviously I haven't met you in person (yet), but it is clear you are very passionate about the organization and your involvement. Speaking from the heart, it's the folks like you that have drawn me to EAA for the last 30 years.

Shame that you are pushing us away.


A message board isn't always the best form of communication. I think that is why many of us have continued to encourage the members to call and talk to someone

Well, I have sent emails and have not gotten a response. So I guess Email is a bad form as well? Fact is I like controversial communications in WRITING. It allows the person to explain a position without being cut off, it makes the other person listen to the end instead of just waiting to reply, and it puts down EXACTLY what was communicated so there can be no "That is not what I said".

I am not afraid of putting my issues out on paper for everyone to read. I stand by my words.


I don't think the benefits of participating has truly changed. Yes we are asking for volunteers to complete the check. But I do hope the passion you have for flying, and for sharing that with a younger generation is still there.

You have failed to answer why I need the EAA to do that. Or what benefit there is for me to do this inside the framework of the YE program.


Everyone here means well, EAA included.


The EAA seems more interested in protecting itself than the members. The EAA is putting requirements that are questionable in effectiveness onto the members and the only group that gets protection from this is the EAA HQ.


I play out the worst case scenario, a child being hurt... and the truth is even one is too many.

One child getting hurt is too many? Better shut down the whole YE program. You know people have DIED right?

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/alden/pilot-boy-die-as-2-small-planes-from-young-eagles-rally-collide-in-lancaster-20140927


Let me ask you this, would you be willing to talk with someone at HQ? I'd be happy to set it up. Not because I don't value the conversation here, but it is clear I can't possibly address everything you are feeling with just another forum post.

I do care about how you are feeling about the policy. I just don't think another post from me will solve how you feel. So that is why I offer connecting you with someone here. I can send you a DM if you want to connect.

Best,
Dennis

I'd prefer all communications to be out in the open and available for everyone to read and see. Anyone from HQ is free to reply to me, on here, and answer any questions. In fact, I WELCOME the opportunity.

There is no reason someone at HQ should have to have this conversation more than once. No reason for any of this discussion to not be available to ALL members to read and comment on.

If HQ wants to talk.... I'll be right here waiting.

[Jkan]

And waiting, and waiting, and waiting!!