Young Eagles and Background Security Checks

[DanH]

I assume all Chapter leaders got the memo, and members will be informed shortly. Apparently we are all required to take an online education course and pass a criminal background check before volunteering at a future Young Eagles event.

The online course is no big deal, basic EAA policy guidance about adult supervision, supervision of adults, and similar. I've already taken it.

However, I stopped at the online application for a criminal background check. In the Age of Hacking, we're all taught that we should never submit our name, DOB, and SSN online. Even if legit, most companies have a miserable record at protecting data. So who the heck is this hired background security check company, and why should I trust them with personal data fundamental to identity theft?

[Mayhemxpc]

I just looked at the site. That is troubling. Not the youth protection stuff. That is the same as the Boy Scouts program, the CAP, and even US Army Drill Sergeants 2 deep leadership with basic trainees.

Like Dan, I am concerned about the background checks. Who made the decision that these checks were required? Who is handling the data? What assurances exist that the information will not be used or stored in an unauthorized manner? What are they looking for in those background checks? I have had enough problems with my personal information being hacked from government sources -- what is this organization handling this and what makes then qualified and trusted? The BSA requires a national background check but they are very open about you does it -- and you don't submit your data online, but in hard copy. (Heck, PII is not supposed to go out online. Any other organization I have dealt with handless that by fax, which is supposed to be more secure.)

I cannot find anything where the TSA or FAA requires this. Why is the EAA now imposing police state tactics?

Back to basics EAA. DEFINE THE PROBLEM: What is the desired end state? What is keeping us from getting there? Is there a significant risk that must be treated? What options to treat that risk were explored? Regarding this "solution" did anyone do a risk analysis of not doing a background check vs the risk of exposing member's personal information (yes, and the legal exposure that would result from that)?

It is not a background check per se that bothers me. I have to do enough of them already, it is everything around it that bothers me. Maybe they just don't want independent curmudgeons like me to be a Young Eagle pilot anymore.

[bookmaker]

I am sure insurance has something to do with it. I am curious why however. Have there been some issues, or are we seeing just another response to paranoia over being sued by anybody and everybody. Sad this even has to be considered.

I did fill out the forms however. I am also concerned about data miners, but my information is spread around so far as it is, I can't see where a legit background check adds much risk.

Dale

[wtmurrell]

I truly believe that, justified or not, these requirements will have a chilling effect on YE flying. Many of the pilots I know that fly them now will not even do the training much less the background check putting a greater burden on those of us who do it. But I can't say I can blame those who don't.

Tom
N94856

[combahee]

All of the pilots who fly YE in our chapter have decided NOT to participate after May 1. In addition all of the volunteers we have spoken with will not participate. Read the entire program. It unjustly puts a burden on the volunteers and pilots of the YE program. Our concerns are our right to privacy as it pertains to Social Security numbers, the acquisition of data, storage of such data by the EAA, and safeguards as to the security of the data. In addition the program "rules" are ridiculous. Read about buckling in a YE, flying in a two seat aircraft, the requirements of the volunteers, photography and it's use, etc. I can go on and on.
Our chapter flies about 200 youngsters and works with students in 4 counties. All this will cease. I wish the program luck.

[FlyingRon]

I have severe concerns about the privacy of information submitted in the background checks. I've been through the identity theft thing already. Whose background checking the people doing the background check? Given the way most of the YE rallies appear to work around here, I think it may be over for me for YE as well.

I already told the BSA to take a hike because they wanted copies of all sorts of documents they had no business having.

[Mark van Wyk]

“You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it.”
--Scott McNealy

I took the test and then submitted the background check. I've submitted to many background checks over the years mostly required by employers. I hope to fly YE again in 2016.

[smutny]

Having just read through the policies, I find this ridiculous.

Can't take pictures of the kids without parental permission? Are we now supposed to police YE events and tell everyone with a cellphone camera to put them away?

In-bloody-sane.

I've done a number of background checks on prospective employees, never needed their SSN to get the information required.

[martymayes]

I am sure insurance has something to do with it. I am curious why however. Have there been some issues, or are we seeing just another response to paranoia over being sued by anybody and everybody. Sad this even has to be considered.

I think it may have more to do with state and federal laws pertaining to child protection and welfare and potential for litigation against the EAA. Quite frankly, if there is someone on the SOR that is providing airplane rides to kids, then: "Houston we have a problem."

It's just not going to go well when a prosecutor ask what kind of precautions were in place to prevent ____________ from happening and the answer is "none." Under the current climate, I think the EAA is being smart by taking a proactive vs. reactive role. I also think while it seems onerous on the surface, the action provides a layer of protection to YE pilots.

I can give you plenty of "sad" examples where a school, community, (even the BSA), (and now EAA) are tasked with child protection and welfare anytime kids are under their care and supervision.

[FlyingRon]

“You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it.”
--Scott McNealy

I took the test and then submitted the background check. I've submitted to many background checks over the years mostly required by employers. I hope to fly YE again in 2016.

I've submitted clearance applications to the government ever since I was 20, but that's not the same as sending it to some unidentified site connected with the EAA. The EAA ain't getting my SSN or driver's license number. Sorry, ain't going to happen. Been screwed by that before.

I did the course, but holy crap, the background check lands you at some anonymously registered site that's unverifiable. What the hell is this? Can't the EAA even use a legitimate company? How can I even verify it's going to AmericanChecked when I'm redirected to some clandestine site? And who the hell is AmericanChecked anyhow, they seem primarily to be involved in tribal gambling.

By the way the EAA training and background check site seems to be busted. I've got both stuck in PENDING now and can't do squat.

[Dana]

Not to make light of what is a real problem in some areas, but we all know there is such a huge risk of children being molested by a pedophile during a 15 minute YE flight...

But EAA has long since succumbed to the Iron Law of Bureaucracy (http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html).

[martymayes]

Not to make light of what is a real problem in some areas, but we all know there is such a huge risk of children being molested by a pedophile during a 15 minute YE flight...

The threshold for pedophile is fairly low these days. Display an inappropriate image on a phone or tablet to a minor and you have crossed the line with 14 min to spare.

[Mark van Wyk]

...The EAA ain't getting my SSN or driver's license number...
AmericanChecked asked for my SSN, which I gave, but I don't recall them asking for my driver's license number.

This whole issue reminds us all that the Young Eagles program, where private pilots take kids up for flights in their airplanes, is a risky endeavor. 99.9999999 percent of the time the rides go without a hitch. But, as is inevitable, an unthinkable tragedy is bound to happen, and it did in September 2014 when a kid and the pilot flying him were killed in a Young Eagles flight mid-air collision. (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Two-Killed-Two-Hurt-In-Young-Eagles-Mid-Air-222822-1.html).
Now with hyper-political correctness, fear everywhere, and parents ready to sue, the spectre of "sexual impropriety" has raised its ugly head in the YE program.
We are no longer living in the age of innocence. I hope the YE program survives, but if as another poster wrote, his entire chapter is chucking it because they refuse to undergo the background check, it may not survive.
I've taken the test and submitted the background check to AmericanChecked. If anything bad happens as a result (such as my information compromised) I will report back. I kind of doubt it, though.
Do you suppose some people are refusing to undergo the background check because the DO have something to hide? Hmmmmmm?

[combahee]

We have nothing to hide. We do have concerns as to the safety and privacy of OUR information.
We understand the concern about youth relationships. I would be fine taking the course. Those convicted of sexual offenses are already prohibited from being around youth.
If you read the entire document you will see how ridiculous some provisions are. The other problem concerns the volunteers. In many cases our chapter works with schools, ROTC, aviation clubs, BSA etc. We can't expect these folks to submit to an EAA background check as well. Many times there wouldn't be enough time. Many of our volunteers are from outside organizations as well. Read the program stipulations. We have to advise a parent if a child is put into a 2 seat aircraft? We have to be supervised while buckling a kid it? What of a 4 seat aircraft, do we have to have a chaperon? We need two "roving" supervisors in addition? If the ROTC from the local high school comes for a day camp what do we do with the teachers and parents are they not qualified to keep an eye on their kids?
This policy, while it is understandable is simply not practical, intrusive and not well though through.
I don't know how other chapters do YE flights but we have a flight leader that holds a pilot briefing before each flight, rules and flight plans are given. Before anyone flies the pilots and youngsters all go through another safety and orientation briefing. Why not just extend this youth protection program briefing to the volunteers, who are under supervision of the coordinator anyway?
Common sense seems to have gone out the window.
EAA keep in mind we volunteer our aircraft, time, fuel because we love to fly and introduce aviation to kids. It's easy to quit.
Look at CAP numbers, my understanding is they are hurting, in large part from more and more restrictive rules and regulations.
Lets protect our kids, but lets do it right, this program isn't right.

[FlyingRon]

AmericanChecked asked for my SSN, which I gave, but I don't recall them asking for my driver's license number.
You think you gave AmericanChecked your SSN, but the site you typed your personal info in is 8f7.com which is hiding behind an anonymous registration. It could be anybody in the whole world.

[Mark van Wyk]

You think you gave AmericanChecked your SSN, but the site you typed your personal info in is 8f7.com which is hiding behind an anonymous registration. It could be anybody in the whole world.
Thanks for making me nervous and causing angst. If my information is comprimised, I'll f***ing sue EAA. There, happy?

[martymayes]

Thanks for making me nervous and causing angst. If my information is comprimised, I'll f***ing sue EAA. There, happy?

Mark, thanks for doing your part in keeping the program going. The only thing worse than having your personal info compromised is living in fear that your personal info will be compromised.

[Kyle Boatright]

This is an issue where EAA leadership needs to step to the forefront immediately and explain the situation. Not just the new rules, but why the rules are being put in place. In addition, EAA needs to find ways (other than "We promise") to convince members their private information will not be compromised by the background check. A failure to address both of these issues immediately will be a huge problem on several fronts.

[dusterpilot]

Like others have said here, I'm afraid the background checks will be an issue that many of our volunteers will not be willing to accept. I, too, am afraid the program will have a huge detrimental impact on the YE program. Many pilots refuse to fly Scouts because of their demand for copies of our pilot credentials. Background checks are an even more intrusive requirement. HOWEVER, the policies and practices are there to PROTECT US from false accusations. The odds of being caught up in a problem are minuscule, but they could destroy your life if you get caught up in that type of situation. No one has mentioned the record-keeping requirements. That is going to be a big job and an important one. I'm recommending that our chapter designate a new chapter leadership position for the sole purpose of becoming the expert to oversee and manage this program for all our chapter activities. I can't say that I like it, but I understand why it's being implemented.

[Kyle Boatright]

Like others have said here, I'm afraid the background checks will be an issue that many of our volunteers will not be willing to accept. I, too, am afraid the program will have a huge detrimental impact on the YE program. Many pilots refuse to fly Scouts because of their demand for copies of our pilot credentials. Background checks are an even more intrusive requirement. HOWEVER, the policies and practices are there to PROTECT US from false accusations. The odds of being caught up in a problem are minuscule, but they could destroy your life if you get caught up in that type of situation. No one has mentioned the record-keeping requirements. That is going to be a big job and an important one. I'm recommending that our chapter designate a new chapter leadership position for the sole purpose of becoming the expert to oversee and manage this program for all our chapter activities. I can't say that I like it, but I understand why it's being implemented.

A background check does not protect me from a false accusation. I don't see how it protects *me* at all.

[PaulDow]

This doesn't inspire much confidence to me. What are they trying to keep secret by hiding their registration behind Godaddy?
Web searches for 8F7.com turns up nothing on them, although there is a pretty tricked-out convertible Audi A5 with the 8F7 designation.

WHOIS Information Domain Name: 8F7.COM

Registry Domain ID: 96441734_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.godaddy.com
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Creation Date: 2003-04-03T17:16:57Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2016-04-03T16:16:57Z
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC
Registrar IANA ID: 146
Registrar Abuse Contact Email: abuse@godaddy.com
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Registrant Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Registrant City: Scottsdale
Registrant State/Province: Arizona
Registrant Postal Code: 85260
Registrant Country: US
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Registry Admin ID:
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Admin Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
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Admin Postal Code: 85260
Admin Country: US
Admin Phone: +1.4806242599
Admin Phone Ext:
Admin Fax: +1.4806242598
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Registry Tech ID:
Tech Name: Registration Private
Tech Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
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Tech Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Tech City: Scottsdale
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Tech Postal Code: 85260
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Name Server: NS1.CYBERTRAILS.COM
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URL of the ICANN WHOIS Data Problem Reporting System: http://wdprs.internic.net/
>>> Last update of WHOIS database: 2016-01-21T2:00:00Z <<<

For more information on Whois status codes, please visit https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/epp-status-codes-2014-06-16-en
http://who.godaddy.com/whoischeck.aspx?domain=8F7.COM

[FastEddie]

I received my letter last night. My first reaction was, "This seems excessive, but I'll wait to hear more information on January 21st."

I then received my first call from an active YE pilot, telling me he will not be flying YE anymore because of this. I know he would easily pass the background check, because he has already passed many such checks through his job and other activities.

I sent the following email to the YE Office today:
________________________________________

Young Eagles Staff,

I received your letter announcing new training and background check requirements for Young Eagles volunteers yesterday.

In the letter, it states that more information will be provided in the January 21st e-newsletter.

Please include an explanation of EXACTLY why this has become a requirement for volunteering, how Young Eagle Coordinators will be able to confirm compliance during a Rally, and strategies on how to recruit and retain volunteer pilots and ground volunteers in the shadow of this additional burden.

My biggest concern is a potentially significant loss of support from within the Young Eagles volunteer community and the inability to "instantly" recruit pilots and ground volunteers during a rally.

Unlike in actual Youth organizations, Young Eagles pilot volunteers interact with young people for only 10-15 minutes while simultaneously operating an aircraft. In addition, all interaction on the ground occurs with a parent or guardian present in a public setting.

Also, unlike actual Youth organizations, a large majority of Young Eagles volunteers are casual volunteers; limiting their involvement to taking a few young people for a flight on a sunny morning or coming out to the airport to help collect forms. This is in contrast to Scouting or Boys/Girls Club volunteers, who organize weekly meetings with young people and invest significant time planning and executing substantial education programs and multiple-day trips.

I find it difficult to believe that the extremely low risk of abuse occurring during a Young Eagles flight experience justifies the implementation of requirements that will significantly reduce volunteer involvement.

EAA has always promoted the idea of education over regulation. This new MANDATORY training and background check seems to fly in the face of this philosophy.

I sincerely hope that the January 21st e-newsletter provides both justification and clarity regarding this new training and background check requirement.

Regards,

Edward J. Myers
President, EAA Chapter 1414
__________________________________________________ ______

I then received an email from EAA this evening entitled "Important Message From the EAA Chapter Office". In the email it states, "This policy keeps EAA in step with best practices that are common in youth education and recreation programs throughout the nation, ranging from scout programs to youth sports leagues."

There was no mention of a legal requirement, a response to an incident involving Young Eagles, or an insurance cost penalty that has driven this decision. Yet EAA is prepared to spend a significant amount of OUR money on this program with no tangible benefit to either the members or the organization.

I am seriously considering severing my involvement with the Young Eagles program, and possibly resigning my leadership position at my chapter.

If I decide to do either or both, I will first complete the training, background check, and receive my card to prove that I have nothing to hide.

I certainly hope that tomorrow's edition of e-Hotline provides better justification for this than "keeps EAA in step with best practices that are common in youth education and recreation programs"

[FlyingRon]

HOWEVER, the policies and practices are there to PROTECT US from false accusations. T
Tell me how a background check protects me?

[Jeff Point]

It does not, and none of this is designed or intended to protect you. It is designed to protect EAA. While I understand the rationale, I disagree with it strongly, and I feel this is a case of the medicine being worse than the illness. Time will tell how this will impact the program in the future, but if this forum is any indication it is in real trouble.

[Mike M]

"...a minimum of two adults who have completed the EAA Youth Service Standards process described above will be in attendance as supervisors of all Youth at all times....For participants under the age of thirteen (13), two staff members or volunteers must be present for every ten (10) Youth participants...volunteers may not initiate meetings or interactions...e.g., two-seat Young Eagles aircraft rides"

OK, for us stupid people...does this mean an individual aviator can't tell a kid at church that flying is fun, offer to take the kid flying, and get the parent's written and signed permission on a young eagles form to take the kid in a two-seat aircraft - without going through all this gobbledegook too???

Remember Young Eagles Pilot Numbers? Mine is 44. Would hate to give this up because the program got stupider than me. But stupid as I am, I am still no way going to give up my personal info on line to a non-secure(?) website. Already had identity theft once and info compromised by supposedly secure government systems at least twice, thank you very much.

[rwanttaja]

Not to make light of what is a real problem in some areas, but we all know there is such a huge risk of children being molested by a pedophile during a 15 minute YE flight...
Well, it only has to happen once. If it does, EAA will be sued, and asked "What did you do to ensure the adults in the Young Eagle program did not have pedophile histories?" If the answer is "nothing," they're toast. If they'd performed an industry-standard background check, they're in better shape. Probably *still* pay millions, but will be less than if they'd done nothing to investigate participants.

About twenty years ago, I was the president of the airport advisory board at my home drome. Being on the board was totally a volunteer position....There was no pay; we got no special access or any privileges. Yet the city announced that we would have to undergo criminal background checks. I refused, and got dropped from the board.

Yet for ~15 years before that...and since, as a matter of fact, I've maintained a fairly high US Government security clearance, where I had to undergo re-investigations every five years. In that case, it was necessary to keep my employment.

There *is* a difference.

I've been notified that my data was part of the massive USG data breach from last year...the hackers not only got my personal data, but the information about my friends, relatives, and medical history I was required to provide. Even copies of my fingerprints, for cripe's sake.

So no, I'm not impressed with a *private* company trying to accrue the same information.

So I don't blame those who are dropping out of Young Eagles over this. I do have one request: Continue to fly kids. Don't bother with the EAA paperwork, just give kids airplane rides.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

The threshold for pedophile is fairly low these days. Display an inappropriate image on a phone or tablet to a minor and you have crossed the line with 14 min to spare.
I've got a friend who took his grandchildren to a local park. He took pictures of his grandkids playing, so someone called the cops.

A while back, a local guy really liked the kids he was flying on a Young Eagles event. He flew them to a nearby airport and bought them lunch.

Didn't tell anyone. All the YE coordinator and the kid's mother knew was that the flight was supposed to last 20 minutes or so, and they'd been gone for over an hour.....

Ron Wanttaja

[combahee]

"...a minimum of two adults who have completed the EAA Youth Service Standards process described above will be in attendance as supervisors of all Youth at all times....For participants under the age of thirteen (13), two staff members or volunteers must be present for every ten (10) Youth participants...volunteers may not initiate meetings or interactions...e.g., two-seat Young Eagles aircraft rides"

OK, for us stupid people...does this mean an individual aviator can't tell a kid at church that flying is fun, offer to take the kid flying, and get the parent's written and signed permission on a young eagles form to take the kid in a two-seat aircraft - without going through all this gobbledegook too???

Remember Young Eagles Pilot Numbers? Mine is 44. Would hate to give this up because the program got stupider than me. But stupid as I am, I am still no way going to give up my personal info on line to a non-secure website.



You got it, can't fly them under the EAA banner. Also you have to expressly tell the parent the child is going up in a two seat aircraft without a chaperon, and you need another adult there as you help the kid into the plane and put his seat belt on to prevent inappropriate touching.

[Turbomallard]

While this is probably necessary in order for EAA to protect itself in the current state of legal affairs, I would guess that it may well mean the end of the program; there are too many provisions required to make it practical or desirable for many members (including myself, unfortunately) to continue with it. I gladly hope to be proven wrong.

However, if it does mean ending the program, flying almost two million kids is a hell of an accomplishment that we should be proud of.

Jim

[Tom Downey]

We've always gave rides, so why do we need permission from any one to give rides.
Young Eagles has always been a local event, why can't we continue as a local event.

[dusterpilot]

A background check does not protect me from a false accusation. I don't see how it protects *me* at all.


Tell me how a background check protects me?

A background check doesn't protect us, it protects the kids. It shouldn't be necessary, but times are far different now than when we were growing up.


So I don't blame those who are dropping out of Young Eagles over this. I do have one request: Continue to fly kids.

Absolutely! There are too many obstacles preventing youth from getting involved in aviation. Let's keep the effort going even if your numbers no longer get counted in a big logbook.

An AOPA survey recently asked how many years have you been flying. 61 percent of those responding have been flying for more than 30 years. Do the math...that means we're old. We need to keep the effort going to share aviation with those younger people who are needed to replace us.

[combahee]

Interestingly I looked at the California Boy Scout web site under their Youth Protection Program, http://www.bsa-ciec.org/training/youth-protection-training/10087. They do not require formal "background" checks and their use of volunteers is much more liberal. I could live with the BSA requirements, The EAA requirements and much more stringent.

[vaflier]

I do not think I will be willing to submit my info to an unsecure and trusted website. If EAA wants us to do this they need to ensure the safety of our personal info. It needs to be done in a way that not only ensures the security of our info but also accountability if it is compromised. I predict this will virtually destroy the Young Eagles program which I have absolutely enjoyed , and it will also cost EAA many members as well. I think it will prove to be the straw that broke the camels back. I understand the need to ensure the safety of children and am absolutely willing to to do my part to do so, but this apears to be poorly thought out and just plain unworkable. As it is currently designed this program goes on step too far. ​EAA wake up and fix this mess while you still can. You have little time to do so !!!.

[smutny]

It's not the background check that's the issue for me, it's the method and unnecessary data that's requested. SSN is NOT required for a check, I've done plenty without the need. Decades ago when I was an adult CAP member, I went to the local police station for the background check, they're the ones with the data that's desired anyway.

This new system also leaves no path for a spouse to help out at a YE event. How are they going to get approved by the EAA to help out?

[AcroGimp]

Not submitting to this - no more YE flights for me. Off and on been doing it since the program started as either a pilot or ground support.

Happy to take airport kids up or anyone introduced via friends, coworkers etc., but EAA can protect itself on its' own dime - too bad since the YE kids really like the Yak.

Chalk up yet another great thing killed by unnecessary and ultimately unrelated kneejerk BS.

'Gimp

[Dave S]

I will not be submitting personal information to an anonymous website. Period.

[Byron J. Covey]

But EAA has long since succumbed to the Iron Law of Bureaucracy (http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html).

Where do you find all this (excellent) stuff Dana?

If may also be extrapolated to describe posters on internet forums.


BJC

[FlyingRon]

A background check doesn't protect us, it protects the kids
Tell me how it protects the kids then.

[martymayes]

A while back, a local guy really liked the kids he was flying on a Young Eagles event. He flew them to a nearby airport and bought them lunch.

Didn't tell anyone. All the YE coordinator and the kid's mother knew was that the flight was supposed to last 20 minutes or so, and they'd been gone for over an hour.....



Well that was dumb and some people dropping out of YE flying, like Capt. Mud in your example, will evidently be a good thing.



I'm pretty sure some type of vetting process is here to stay. The EAA is not going to assume that kind of liability.

[martymayes]

We've always gave rides, so why do we need permission from any one to give rides.
Young Eagles has always been a local event, why can't we continue as a local event.

I never go look for kids to give plane rides but if someone ask me about it, I'll make sure they get a plane ride- from the pilot seat.

[CraigCantwell]

Having had my identity and my wife's compromised 3 times already by commercial operations and now by the government, forget it. I will stay far away from anything YE.

[combahee]

There is a way for everyone to work this out and win.
I fully understand protecting children.
A simple form with questions as to any criminal background given to the Chapter President. (Same as the Boy Scouts).
Have the YE Coordinator and President take the online course.
At each YE rally the coordinator will brief all the participants, volunteers, pilots etc.
A minimum of one "qualified" supervisor on the ground at all times.
For a one on one the childs parent or guardian must be present or a written permission waiver, with an adult present.

These are simple to execute, protect the EAA and the child, and life will move on.
The contentious points seem to be the background check, hey EAA, we don't work for you, we VOLUNTEER, and the restrictions on volunteers.

I fail to understand how this went through legal, the YE program administrators, the EAA board without any input form those actually flying the kids. Without all of us out there flying, donating our time and aircraft, EAA would not have a program.

[fidot]

Below is my email to Michelle and Brian of YE ..

In general, the Policy and the requirement for the background checks IMO are offensive, especially put under the sauce of "let's keep kids safe": as if we haven't.. Implementation of checks is at best not thought thru well, and at worst incompetent (I have some details in my email Ive sent below).

I like some options outlined above, especially the declarative one (ie, a checklist of sorts one has to fill out) if CYA is indeed that necessary. Another thing is that most of the things BG check will weed out is already weeded out via the FAA's Medical questionnaire, with the enforcement (federal felony for lying on it, is it?) built in.

Le Sigh. I won't get my 100 YEs shirt probably.. but heck, I got my cap and my pin :) I will still wear them proudly.

---

Michelle, Brian,

(Michelle, we have communicated a number of times in regards of our chapter's YE rallies and other activities).

I have just received the letter about YE's training and background checks. I have completed the training course: I do understand necessity of such things to protect Chapters, EAA, etc. Working for a large company, we have to go thru similar things at our work.

What bugs me a lot is the background check process. The very fact that a non-profit volunteer based organization would require it's paying members to go thru such a thing is unusual, strange, and somewhat offending. The necessity to provide your SS# and other private information is very questionable, especially given my relationship with EAA as a paying member rather than an employee.

What has caused this sudden change in policy, given 25 years of the YE program? Was there a lawsuit? What happened?

I have done a quick research on the background checks' provider, American Checked, and, frankly, even all the other concerns aside, would not be comfortable providing them any of my personal information; not even speaking of SSN, especially in this day and age of ID theft, etc.
Their Privacy Policy is very basic and aside from "we don't talk to anyone and your information is well protected" is leaving a lot of questions open.
Doing a bit more research, I find it even more questionable.
The redirect page for the check is leading to some obscure domain (www04.8f7.com, registered via a domain proxy w/o ANY references to "American Checked", see http://www.whois.com/whois/8f7.com), makes it look like a prime phishing attempt: phishing being a hacking technique (mis)leading victims to submit their private information to a malicious party.
Their SSL Certificate (basically, a thingie that confirms that the website is legit) was issued to BackChecked, LLC in Phoenix, AZ: while on their main website (http://americanchecked.com/) they list themselves as "AmericanChecked, Inc" in Tulsa, OK.

Even assuming they are legitimate, and the domain is indeed theirs, such a configuration via obscure URLs and SSL certificates issued to entities other than named on the main website as they have raises questions about their IT folks' professionalism (to me as a Security Software Architect, frankly, this looks like something done by unprofessional and or careless people). Basically, "if those guys can't set up their web stuff properly, how would I trust them to safeguard my SSN"? To give an aviation analogy; I would never trust a mechanic that consistently forgets to torque and safety wire my prop bolts do my engine overhaul.

Even forgetting all this and assuming their setup was top-notch and I had no issues with them, what happens if they leak? (Even the best do; case in point: NSA). What if an EAA Member's reputation, business, social standing, etc, is damaged due to this background check process? Lack of any formal communication from EAA describing these possibilities and how they will be handled is not adding any confidence.

Bottom line is, in my humble opinion requirements for such background checks would've been reasonable if we were to work for a CIA, FBI, or other similar type agencies. This seems very troubling as a requirement to continue engaging in a weekend, hobby volunteer activity, which YE is for the most of us.

Personally, my participation as an official Young Eagles pilot and coordinator will probably end if the background checks requirements are indeed implemented. I am positive that a vast majority of YE pilots and volunteers would have similar opinions, possibly putting the whole YE program in jeopardy.

I hope this is not how it will end.

[Mark van Wyk]

I was trusting and went through with it and took the online training and submitted my information for background check. Now you guys have got me worried (slightly), but I'm fairly confident I will have no issues with identity theft.
So remind me again, what is the big deal about someone getting your social security number? A mere 10 years or so ago the private pilot certificate number was your SSN. I remember giving it out routinely on employment applications, etc. It used to be on my driver's license. I've given it to numerous employers over the decades.


What can the Rooskie hacker do with my SSN, anyway?

[fidot]

Well; your name, address, DoB and SSN is pretty much all that's necessary to apply for a credit card, bank account, etc. In addition, these guys will go and proactively solicit information about *you* that you probably wouldn't want to leak... What does show up on the "background check" they run? I don't know.

There are two issues I see with this.

1. Provider vetting @ EAA. I think this is a minor one and could be attributed to possible inexperience. I think EAA could be easily persuaded to change the provider by an uproar of the pilots.

2. The actual "Youth Protection" Policy, and a requirement of the check in itself. I see this as a much bigger issue of intrusion, presumption of guiltiness, and basically all the rest that's wrong with the social climate nowadays. These policy and requirements IMO fall into the same bin as TSA (http://bit.ly/1KtbIbB), Patriot Act as a response to ~3000 deaths (while horrible, a drop in the ocean among other things), CPS harassing parents letting their kids run around the house w/o a leash, etc. To me personally, YE was a breath of fresh air in all the BS we have subjected ourselves to.

This keeps getting worse, and each steps with each of the programs and mentioned here organisations (I unfortunately am one of those transplanted Rooskies so haven't been exposed to much of them as a kid, so only can quote: CAP, Scouts, schools) leads us to a society more and more disconnected from reality (where risks Exist, from the capital "E").

Just discussing this last night with my wife (who originally seemed to have liked the requirement); we made an argument that this is very close to a situation where, when at a hospital just getting a newborn, she's taken away from you into foster care unless you pass a background check.

I don't want our society (which in most aspects I am proud to have been transplanted into) to go in that ​direction.

[PaulDow]

What can the Rooskie hacker do with my SSN anyway?

SSN on the pilot cert was done by lazy federal bureaucrats instead of making a new number. It was done before identity theft was such a large problem.

The question is what can be done with that, combined with data from other sources? Your birth date is on that check too.
In Connecticut, our sleazy politicians made voting records public information so they can robocall us. Combine a few sources, and you could apply for loans that won't be paid back, file a fake income tax return for a refund, apply for credit cards.

[Perry Yaremchuk]

ok, I am in Canada, so it will be interesting to see if this affects the twin COPA for Kids program. I hope not.
Since nobody had raised this option; the parents are already signing off on a liability form that says we are all licensed pilots, we and the aircraft are insured etc.....but that they are acknowledging some risk........why not simply add a line something like, 'your child may be alone in the cockpit with a volunteer pilot, photos will be taken at this event, if you are NOT ok with that, do not allow the child to participate.'

does that not address the issue from the correct end?....the common sense one?

[FlyingRon]

SSN on the pilot cert was done by lazy federal bureaucrats instead of making a new number. It was done before identity theft was such a large problem.
You were never required to use it. The FCC always (at least since 1981 when I was first licensed) allowed you to have a non-SSN number assigned. Most CFIs did this anyhow lest they have their SSN in every student's logbook they ever taught. It was way after people got hinky about SSNs that the FCC mandated you COULD NOT use your SSN any longer (I had the SSN on my certificate but they gave me a new one gratuitously int he 1990s if I recall properly).

[Mark van Wyk]

I must admit I am surprised at the number of volunteers who are bailing and are apparently perfectly willing to see the demise of Young Eagles over this. It must have taken lots of work and organizing over the years to get YE up and running. There are forms, insurance policies, procedures, etc., set in place requiring many years of hard work. And yet, I see pilot after pilot say they are out. Goodbye and good luck. All of this fuss over a simple background check, not surprising in these tense, litigious times. Pilots willing to see the whole endeavor go bust. Down the tubes.
Wow. Just, wow.
One of my biggest concerns is that there will be so few planes and pilots left in the program, undue pressure will be placed on those willing to fly the dozens of kids lined up for a ride. Most remaining pilots will not be willing to disappoint the kids, and will wind up carrying all the load.
I am sensing a bit of a herd mentality here. One guy says he's bailing, and the mob joins in. Over a SSN? Can't we look for a solution instead of watching the destruction of YE?

[cub builder]

I must admit I am surprised at the number of volunteers who are bailing and are apparently perfectly willing to see the demise of Young Eagles over this. Can't we look for a solution instead of watching the destruction of YE?

Actually, I would like to see every member bail on Young Eagles. Not because I want to see the Young Eagles program die. But instead, to save it from this sort of bureaucratic nonsense. Call it a strike if you wish. But if every YE pilot told the EAA to stuff it unless they drop this silliness, the EAA would have to choose between the pilots and their lawyers. If they want the program to continue, they send out a letter of apology and continue on as they have. It's not the pilots, but the EAA Leadership that is willing to kill the program.

As for me, I have held high level security clearances for my employment for the last 42 years. In return, the Chinese now have more information about me and my family than I could quote off the top of my head. So the EAA wants me to submit the same data to an unknown entity to perform a background check in order to volunteer to share what I love to do. No thanks. I was taking kids for rides long before the EAA ever cooked up the Young Eagles program. Their $1M additional liability insurance isn't worth what I have to give up to participate. So I'll return to what I was doing before there was an EAA program. I'll haul kids that are interested in flying for free, any time they want, without the constraints of the EAA programs.

What this move tells me is that the EAA has been working too much with the government and much like the government, is now being run by the lawyers. So this former Chapter president, former Flight Advisor, Former Tech Counselor, and now former proponent of Young Eagles, will take yet another step back away from the EAA and their lawyers. I will be introducing a motion for our chapter to suspend any further YE chapter events until the EAA can get their heads on straight again.

-Cub Builder

[fidot]

(edit: Cub Builder ^^^ above said it much better than I have below)

Young Eagles as a program that demands that:

"Staff and volunteers may not initiate meetings or interactions, or extend their relationship with any Youth to other activities (except for supervision in other sponsored and organized Youth activities)."
" If possible, the staff member or volunteer should encourage the parent to be present and acknowledge that the touching might occur. " (speaking of buckling them in)
"Staff and volunteers are strictly prohibited from taking photographs of Youth participating in EAA-related programs and events for personal use and from posting photographs depicting such Youth on social media or websites."

to me seems as not what it was ('let's all have fun and fly kids and introduce them to aviating'), but turning into something with rigid structure mandated by Lawyers. If so, yes, it deserves to die.

Stopping flying kids to get them hooked onto aviation? Absolutely not! I don't think that any of us who are considering bailing will stop flying kids altogether thinking that "oh, well, now I am no longer covered / have EAA behind my activity... I guess this is too dangerous now, I will no longer do it 'cause I might get sued". I think that most of folks bailing due to these checks and new policy don't tend to think this way at all.

[fidot]

eHotline just out, http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-and-aviation-news/news/01-21-2016-young-eagles-pilots-complete-youth-protection-plan-requirements?mkt_tok=3RkMMJWWfF9wsRokuaXLZKXonjHpf sX76u0vW6%2Bg38431UFwdcjKPmjr1YEDTcR0aPyQAgobGp5I5 FEBS7DYT6V1t6UKWA%3D%3D

The company working with EAA in this process, AmericanChecked, is among the leaders in the industry and works with many colleges, school districts, and governmental agencies. A top priority of the exhaustive process to select the right company to work with EAA and its volunteers was the safety and security of any data collected. More information on that is available on the FAQ webpage, and we welcome questions and suggestions at any time at feedback@eaa.org.

:mad:

[ssmdive]

Do you suppose some people are refusing to undergo the background check because the DO have something to hide? Hmmmmmm?

Uh, my information was stolen from the Office of Personnel Management…. You know the Federal Govt. No way am I going to trust some little heard of company with my personal data. I have SEVERAL background checks run on me a year from my employer (Airline), the ATF…ETC.

My wife had her ID stolen… This was 8 years ago and we are STILL dealing with the fallout from it.

I had planned on trying to hook up with the YE program… Not anymore.
I have nothing to hide except my personal data from hackers and people looking to sell it.

[Mark van Wyk]

to me seems as not what it was ('let's all have fun and fly kids and introduce them to aviating'), but turning into something with rigid structure mandated by Lawyers. If so, yes, it deserves to die.

Stopping flying kids to get them hooked onto aviation? Absolutely not! I don't think that any of us who are considering bailing will stop flying kids altogether thinking that "oh, well, now I am no longer covered / have EAA behind my activity... I guess this is too dangerous now, I will no longer do it 'cause I might get sued". I think that most of folks bailing due to these checks and new policy don't tend to think this way at all.

My guess is that most of those saying they will "still give rides to kids" won't give rides to kids. My experience with Young Eagles is that they have an organized event at such local events as my home base airport Open House. Free rides are advertised, and literally hundreds of kids from the community and their parents show up line up for a ride. That's what's going to die if YE dies. But, to each their own.

[combahee]

It's not the background check by itself. read the whole policy. It is more restrictive than what the Boy Scouts do and they have had problems! It is the requirement for ALL the volunteers to undergo this "training" and background check. It is the accusatory attitude of the EAA even to the point of helping a kid put on a seat belt. Our chapter works with another very well thought of organization that sponsors scholarships for kids. Imagine me telling them they have to undergo the checks and take the course? Or the school teacher of the aviation club they have to do it? Or the dean of the local college that sponsors an aviation day camp? Or even my wife who sits behind a table and handles paperwork and prints certificates?
Myself, I have nothing to hide, but won't give out my SSN. My info was hacked when some hackers hacked the State's system! Do I trust the EAA or this background company...no. As for the other provisions of the policy, they are unworkable, impractical.
Will I continue to fly kids? Yep, just not with the EAA. Too bad hundreds if not thousands of kids just lost their rides.... so much for promoting aviation. EAA, you screwed up... bad.
One thing I do find ironic. The EAA is going on and on about the 3rd class medical, to get the FAA off the backs of the pilots etc. etc. then they do this.
Almost 2 million kids flown, how many cases of molestation at a YE rally, flight or directly attributed to the YE program?

[CarlOrton]

I agree with just about everyone's said so far. But another aspect we haven't addressed is of the Chapter officers & board members themselves. We're protected by the EAA insurance, but if something happened and it was determined that the individual and/or chapter governance were not trained, whoooboy.

Makes me really wonder about my board position. And, yes, I'm another one with very high clearances hacked while at the OPM.

[Mark van Wyk]

How many of you file your income taxes using TurboTax? Do you file your return over the internet? Gee, as I recall, your tax return contains your name, address, DoB, and SSN. Of course, nothing can go wrong with TurboTax or the IRS. Perfectly trustworthy.:)

But go ahead, trash the YE progam

[ssmdive]

One guy says he's bailing, and the mob joins in. Over a SSN? Can't we look for a solution instead of watching the destruction of YE?

You clearly have not ever had your ID stolen. A woman in CA had my wife's info, she had bought a car, rented a house, taken out scores of credit cards, a line of credit at several stores.

The police? No help at all. My wife and I tracked the woman down. We then had to call the local police and hassle them till they arrested her. We had to send a copy of the police report to them, our local police would not be bothered… After all it was "just ID theft".

We had to contact lender after lender and go through the same BS every time. First they accused us of just trying to get out of "our" debts. They would call and harass us at our house. When we told them what happened, they ignored us and one told my wife she should "Quit being a deadbeat and pay her fu(king bills"…. We had to send copies of the police report, copies of the woman's arrest record… Over and over and over. 7 years later we STILL get some contact over this.

When we tried to buy a house? Yep, her credit was damaged over all this and we had to go through pages and pages of data and add weeks to the process. Did you know how important a good credit rating is? Well, our house loan was going to be at a higher rate until we went through all the process of fighting each and every creditor that claimed we owed them money. And you know your car insurance looks at your credit rating? My wife HAS to disclose her financial information for work. We had to jump through hoops there as well…. You going to use a financial planner that has credit problems?

I had my data stolen because the Govt granted me a clearance. THE GOVERNMENT. I had to give them my data… And they lost it.

So the chance I am going to give my data to anyone over some BS… NIL.

[Mark van Wyk]

FOLKS, LET'S STOP OVER REACTING. None of this is that unusual or unheard of. Yes, we used to live in more innocent times, when pilots flew around in open cockpits with leather caps, goggles, and scarfs flying in the wind.


Times have changed. Here are some other recent examples of organizations that require checks of adults in contact with kids.


http://www.scouting.org/BSAYouthProtection/Media_Center/KnowtheFacts.aspx
http://www.girlscoutsosw.org/content/dam/oregon-sw-washington-/forms/Background_Check_QA.pdf


Here's a government publication on the matter.
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/PreventingChildSexualAbuse-a.pdf

[Auburntsts]

I have no problem with a background check. I do have a problem providing PII data to an anonymous site. In any event, these new rules aren't a panacea because they only uncover past evidence of an actual conviction. It does nothing to prove future intent nor uncover a nefarious past if a monster has never been caught. So I see a lot of risk for the participants but little in the way actually providing the security they are trying to achieve. I have a high level security clearance so count me out until they eliminate the SSN requirement.

[nesincg]

Yesterday I got very sad news from your EAA Young Eagle program office at Oshkosh. Dressing up new policy as “Introducing the Youth Protection Policy”, effective immediately, all volunteers wishing to participate in the Young Eagles program will have to go through a 25 minute online training course. After that, each volunteer will also have to submit personal data to a third party vendor to undergo a background check (paid for by EAA with your dues) with results hopefully coming within 10 days. This would have to be repeated every 3 years. There will also be a 10 page set of rules for volunteers to follow and for coordinators to enforce during any event.

With utter disappointment, I called both the numbers listed on my letter as mangers of the program. This change was not brought about by any event but by direct orders from “corporate”. They said “best practices” were to develop this program since other youth activities had similar programs. I think the saddest part was the manager calling a non-profit meant to promote aviation “corporate”, maybe his lack of courage to stand up against this useless program, or maybe the fact this program would not address first time offenders which would be 99.999% of the cases.

Tonight I met with our chapter president and we reviewed the materials presented. We talked about options and weighed possible outcomes. If we decided to take on the additional scrutiny, finding pilots and volunteers would become more difficult. There is even more critical rules for 2 seat airplanes, such as a cub, that result in more guidelines. We would not have a problem finding qualified individuals, but we would find a lack of interest in volunteers who give up so much already, bothering with additional scrutiny and invasion of privacy. This program would not find any first time offenders, which is probably 99.99% of them.

It is with great sadness that I must report that our chapter has suspended our Young Eagles program for the foreseeable future. Due to increased requirements and burdens placed on EAA1560 by EAA “corporate”, we have been forced to to take this action. For many of us, this program is the only reason we are members. I personally spent hundreds of hours last year dedicated to Young Eagles. This breaks my heart that we will not be able to share aviation with our local youth anymore.

If you would wish to contact (and I encourage you to do so) those responsible for the Young Eagles program they are:

Dick Knapinski
Director of Communications
(920) 426-6523
dknapinski@eaa.org

Brian O'Lena
Manager, EAA Young Eagles
(920) 426-6297
bolena@eaa.org

Michelle Kunes
Program Coordinator, Young Ealges
(902) 426-6114
mkunes@eaa.org

[nesincg]

Actually, I would like to see every member bail on Young Eagles. Not because I want to see the Young Eagles program die. But instead, to save it from this sort of bureaucratic nonsense.
This


But another aspect we haven't addressed is of the Chapter officers & board members themselves. We're protected by the EAA insurance, but if something happened and it was determined that the individual and/or chapter governance were not trained, whoooboy.
And This


are why I'm taking a stand.

[ysifly2]

From 'the manual'...

Flight Programs. Due to the nature of some of EAA-related programs (e.g., two-seatYoung Eagles aircraft rides), there are times when it will be impossible for two (2) adultsto be present in an activity involving a Youth. In such cases, the staff member orvolunteer should take particular care to ensure that the Youth and their parents areaware of the circumstances.


So, am i to interpret, that if you have a more than a two place airplane you 'must' take an 'supervisory' adult with you while flying the young eagle?


More From 'the manual'...


EAA chapters and other operators of EAA-related programs and events will maintain orderlyand accessible records for each Youth participant in chapter activities. The maintenance periodwill be not less than three (3) years. See the attached Waiver & Permission Slip Matrix. Theserecords will include:


Parent contact information and other emergency contact information.

Acknowledgement of receipt of policies on discipline, prohibited activities, and sign-
in/sign-out procedures.

Activity-specific permission slips, dated and signed.

Attendance record of the dates on which the Youth participated in EAA-related
programs and events.

Conduct and behavior issues and resolutions.

Incident reports.






This is an increasing administrative burden, with record keeping requirements approaching the IRS requirements. Young Eagle registration form. Parent Waiver. Details record data base, inclusive of 'conduct and behavior issues'... each chapter will need a Corporate HR department to 'manage' the events.

This is the extended burden that, beyond the concerns of the background checks, will put a significant strain on performing young eagle events, especially for smaller chapters.

Lastly... what then are the requirements for a one-on-one Young Eagle ride, i.e. non-rally Young Eagle rides?


Bryan

[Jeff Point]

The silence from HQ on this thread has been deafening, and I'm certain they are watching this discussion. I for one would like to hear their side of this. Clearly this didn't happen without some high level consideration of the cost-benefit analysis. I have a pretty good idea where this came from within HQ, and I would like to hear from them. This has a chance of causing real damage not just to the YE program but to all of EAA. I think you owe us an explanation beyond just PR speak about best practices and risk management.

[Dana]

FOLKS, LET'S STOP OVER REACTING. None of this is that unusual or unheard of. Yes, we used to live in more innocent times, when pilots flew around in open cockpits with leather caps, goggles, and scarfs flying in the wind.

I still fly around in an open cockpit with leather gap, goggles, and scarf...


Times have changed. Here are some other recent examples of organizations that require checks of adults in contact with kids.

Scout leaders spend a lot more time with the kids, take them on camping trips, etc... a lot more potential for (and history of!) creepy behavior than a 15 minute flight in broad daylight with the parents watching them when they get on and off the plane.


...I see this as a much bigger issue of intrusion, presumption of guiltiness, and basically all the rest that's wrong with the social climate nowadays...

Exactly.

[fidot]

I have a pretty good idea where this came from within HQ...Is it possible to form a group of folks interested in taking this on with wherever this came from, and having a meeting with them? I'd be more than happy to help.

[vaflier]

If the goal of all of this was to limit liability and I am sure it is, then EAA would have been far better off to buy insurance !!!. This is going to cost a heavy price if they persist with it.

[lyleapgmc]

Just who on earth determines what is "best practices?" There must be some money in it for someone.

[vaflier]

Just who on earth determines what is "best practices?" There must be some money in it for someone.
The legal department in consultation with the HR department.

[smutny]

FOLKS, LET'S STOP OVER REACTING. None of this is that unusual or unheard of.

Your SSN is probably the most important piece of your paper identity, and there is absolutely no reason to provide it for a criminal check. It's just easy for America Check to do their job using it vs just name and address. So if they're lazy on that aspect of their business, where else are they cutting corners?

My company manages information that my State deems sensitive. All my employees, vendors, landlord and even cleaning staff must sign a Secrecy Agreement from the State. So when a company starts asking for completely unnecessary information to perform their service, it makes me question their reasoning.

[dougbush]

So no, I'm not impressed with a *private* company trying to accrue the same information.
Strange that some of you think a private company must be less secure even after the government let hackers have your data.

[rwanttaja]

Strange that some of you think a private company must be less secure even after the government let hackers have your data.

Actually, the breach last year *was* a private company...under contract to the government. The government then terminated the contract for cause.

Ron Wanttaja

[WillR]

It is sad times we are living in.

I heard from a friend regarding this issue and was told that both his YE Coordinator and chapter president resigned over this issue.

My question is, why not allow an alternate means of compliance? ie. Why can't I show my CWP (CCW, CCP, etc.) to give rides? That proves I passed a background check.

As for me, I an a long time IT guy and no way is the EAA getting my SSN for all the reasons listed above. Heck, I do NOT like the fact that my insurance company has my SSN!

[Jeff Point]

Is it possible to form a group of folks interested in taking this on with wherever this came from, and having a meeting with them? I'd be more than happy to help.
Anything is possible, however I'm afraid that genie is out of the bottle now. HQ was warned in advance and was well aware that this would be the likely reaction, and they chose to do this anyway. That's why I would really like to hear their rationale. I'm trying hard to give them the benefit of doubt. Perhaps their insurance company said they need to do this or lose the YE insurance coverage? That's just a wild guess, not based on any information, but it could be one rational explanation. We need to hear it from them, and soon, before this thing snowballs even further.

[FlyingRon]

Your CCW doesn't show that you have no criminal history, at least not in the two states I hold them in. It shows you aren't a felon and don't have a DV conviction or in the case of Virginia MULTIPLE class 1 misdemeanors. "Sexual abuse of a person under 15" only rises to the level of misdemeanor here. You could still have a CHP with one of those.

My problem isn't so much with the background checks and training (though I think they are really going to screw up the operation of a lot of the rally's where other than pilots, it's getting pretty damn hard to find any volunteers let alone vetted ones), it's just a sign of the time.

The big issue is EAA's dumping this policy on the volunteers with a completely half-assed implementation. The training program appears BUSTED. I completed it but it gave me some obtuse error about not being able to save my results and the use of a completely dubious provider with a suspicious and unverifiable web form asking for sensitive information is the problem.

I can't even go further both my course and the background check are wedged in EAA la la land. Apparently, nobody developing serious web applications (ran into the same problem at the drone registry) can freaking spell TEST anymore.

[ssmdive]

My guess is that most of those saying they will "still give rides to kids" won't give rides to kids. My experience with Young Eagles is that they have an organized event at such local events as my home base airport Open House. Free rides are advertised, and literally hundreds of kids from the community and their parents show up line up for a ride. That's what's going to die if YE dies. But, to each their own.

If Young Eagles dies over this.... It will be classified as a suicide.

[Jim Rosenow]

Would logic indicate that, given the large number of children on the grounds at AirVenture, similar background checks should be required for all volunteers there? KidVenture jumps out as one of the most obvious venues. Just sayin'......

Jim

[Byron J. Covey]

actually, i would like to see every member bail on young eagles. Not because i want to see the young eagles program die. But instead, to save it from this sort of bureaucratic nonsense. Call it a strike if you wish. But if every ye pilot told the eaa to stuff it unless they drop this silliness, the eaa would have to choose between the pilots and their lawyers. If they want the program to continue, they send out a letter of apology and continue on as they have. It's not the pilots, but the eaa leadership that is willing to kill the program.

As for me, i have held high level security clearances for my employment for the last 42 years. In return, the chinese now have more information about me and my family than i could quote off the top of my head. So the eaa wants me to submit the same data to an unknown entity to perform a background check in order to volunteer to share what i love to do. No thanks. I was taking kids for rides long before the eaa ever cooked up the young eagles program. Their $1m additional liability insurance isn't worth what i have to give up to participate. So i'll return to what i was doing before there was an eaa program. I'll haul kids that are interested in flying for free, any time they want, without the constraints of the eaa programs.

What this move tells me is that the eaa has been working too much with the government and much like the government, is now being run by the lawyers. So this former chapter president, former flight advisor, former tech counselor, and now former proponent of young eagles, will take yet another step back away from the eaa and their lawyers. I will be introducing a motion for our chapter to suspend any further ye chapter events until the eaa can get their heads on straight again.

-cub builder

+1


bjc

[martymayes]

Would logic indicate that, given the large number of children on the grounds at AirVenture, similar background checks should be required for all volunteers there? KidVenture jumps out as one of the most obvious venues. Just sayin'......


Careful what you wish for......

[Jim Rosenow]

Careful what you wish for......

Not 'wish for', Marty. Hope to avoid thru the strenuous application of logic.... YE vetting impacts us... AirVenture vetting affects EAA 'corporate' bottom line.

Jim

[krw920]

Would logic indicate that, given the large number of children on the grounds at AirVenture, similar background checks should be required for all volunteers there? KidVenture jumps out as one of the most obvious venues. Just sayin'......JimWas thinking the exact same thing, Jim. Slippery slope indeed.

[CraigCantwell]

After reading the policy information, it appears that this is going to include ANY EAA event that a kid may attend, including regular meetings. Guess that means a 17 year old that is a Chapter member will now have to have a signed permission slip to attend a meeting and there will have to be multiple trained and vetted members there for them to be allowed to attend. This is looking to be much worse than it started out to be. I am afraid that if this is implemented as it stands, we are going to kill off any youth involvement in the EAA.

[martymayes]

I am afraid that if this is implemented as it stands, we are going to kill off any youth involvement in the EAA.

There are numerous other youth enrichment programs in this country that now require volunteers to be vetted and those seem to be moving forward despite the various required background checks for those that volunteer and/or participate. If the same thing is going to "kill off any youth involvement" in the EAA, what does that say about it's volunteers????

[nesincg]

what does that say about it's volunteers????It says we are old enough not to put up with this stupid crap.

[DanH]

That they are not sheep who accept "security theater"?

[vaflier]

There are numerous other youth enrichment programs in this country that now require volunteers to be vetted and those seem to be moving forward despite the various required background checks for those that volunteer and/or participate. If the same thing is going to "kill off any youth involvement" in the EAA, what does that say about it's volunteers????

It says that they are tired of all of the politically correct BS !

[combahee]

According to this policy we will have to cancel our ground school classes for teens. Cancel our YE rally's, definitely no single child plane rides.
As for the background checks, since they require your SSN, this allows the personnel at the checking agency to gather all kinds of financial information, which they can then use in other databases. Who's watching AmericaCheck? What safeguards? The chapter presidents and coordinators will be able to see vetted members this allows them into the secure servers, does it not? How long before they get hacked, after all we all know pilots are a bunch of rich guys.
The requirements on volunteers is ridiculous.
The record keeping is not only ridiculous it would be an invasion of the parents privacy. Who keeps these records, how are they kept, where are they kept? Too many questions.
If EAA wants to do a background check sans the SSN, go for it.
If the EAA requires a vetted member to supervise fine. I have no problems with that. But to require all volunteers and even parents? No way.
BTW our chapter flew over 120 youngsters last year alone. Many of which came in school groups such as the ROTC and aviation clubs. We also flew kids in a university sponsored day camp. We also fly many "at risk" kids who may never get a chance again. So sad, we really liked doing what we were doing but under these guidelines it is impossible.

[CraigCantwell]

There are numerous other youth enrichment programs in this country that now require volunteers to be vetted and those seem to be moving forward despite the various required background checks for those that volunteer and/or participate. If the same thing is going to "kill off any youth involvement" in the EAA, what does that say about it's volunteers????
Please read the policy as it has been put forth. It is not limited to just anything YE. It includes Chapter meetings. We have a couple of teenagers that attend our meetings and are heavily involved in the Chapter. By this policy, we will now have to have multiple members go thru this process, and make sure that enough of them are at every meeting so that if one of the teenagers comes and does not have his parent with him at the meeting, he can attend. Do we bar a Chapter member, whom happens to be a teenager, because his parent isn't there and we don't have the minimum number of vetted YE people there? How does that look to any visitors that we might have, How is that going to affect that teenager, that just proved to the feds that he is qualified as a pilot, but because we have changed our policy, he can't come to the meetings of an organization that had been mentoring and encouraging him, that he also is a member of?

I can understand part of the new policy, but I think it has not been thought out very well and will induce some unintended consequences that are going to do more harm than good.

[martymayes]

Please read the policy as it has been put forth.

I have.


I can understand part of the new policy, but I think it has not been thought out very well and will induce some unintended consequences that are going to do more harm than good.
You are no doubt right about that because there is always a learning curve. But you can bet it's not going away.

[martymayes]

It says we are old enough not to put up with this stupid crap.


That they are not sheep who accept "security theater"?


It says that they are tired of all of the politically correct BS !

let me know how that works out for ya......

[combahee]

You are no doubt right about that because there is always a learning curve. But you can bet it's not going away.

That isn't the problem. Whoever drew this up and the heads at EAA who approved it are not living in the real world. The plan as presented has 1. privacy concerns to the EAA members as well as to the child and parents and 2 is unworkable, impracticable. Now if the EAA wanted to really do a good job they would have contacted the chapter coordinators first and worked with them on a workable plan and addressed concerns BEFORE announcing the plan.
Keep in mind we don't work for the EAA, are not compensated in any way and volunteer our time, money and aircraft to better aviation and the EAA. Without membership they will go away.
I was told last year that the YE credits may be going away after 2015. The cost was too great, well now I can see why. How much is this costing the EAA?

[FlyingRon]

Would logic indicate that, given the large number of children on the grounds at AirVenture, similar background checks should be required for all volunteers there? KidVenture jumps out as one of the most obvious venues. Just sayin'......

Jim

I only volunteer where children are barred from Wisconsin law from being (we've been through that battle with using minors as flight line volunteers).

[Bret Steffen]

I would like to clarify a few things for everyone without interfering with your dialogue. EAA believes in letting our membership communicate freely, as many of you have here.

First, I would like to help you understand that this is not a movement initiated by Brian or Michelle or anyone else in the Young Eagles program. Some folks have been pretty mean to these two individuals who have served the YE program for many years now. These folks are the messengers and are here to help us all work through the transition this new policy brings.

There have been incidents in the past three years where YE pilots have been accused of illegal activities regarding youth outside of the program. While not directly linked to the program this has highlighted the fact that EAA has not kept step with the current practices of vetting people who have contact with children. The need for a youth protection policy became an obvious need and was not driven by any single factor, lawyer, or insurance company.

The policy is not intended to “kill” anything. It is intended to keep kids safe and to keep our programs alive and thriving for another 63 years.

EAA volunteers are the highest quality volunteers anywhere, and we have no suspicions that any of you have anything but positive intentions. The policy helps us ensure that everyone out there who is not as familiar with us understands we take safety of our youth as seriously as every other organization.

The policy does cover all EAA chapters, EAA activities in Oshkosh at the HQ and during AirVenture.

Background checks are tools used to assist youth protection programs in many many youth serving activities. They are not effective to prevent someone with no record from harming someone, but they are a tool used as a first line deterrent to a small number of very dangerous people from being involved with children.

AmericanChecked is our third party vendor for the background checks. They provide a secure portal, and have a variety of security procedures and processes in place. More information on them is available in the FAQ page. http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-education-and-resources/eaa-youth-education/~/link.aspx?_id=2F6EBB8041AB463EB5ECB90FEADB7C10&_z=z

The background check we are getting covers these items: (this is taken from our agreement with them)
Baseline Background Check $5.00/Person
· Nationwide Criminal Database
· Multi-State Sex and Violent Offenders Report
· Social Security Number Verification
· Address Locator Report
· Wanted Persons Security Screen

The sign off at the end of the background check is telling you that this company (and all like it) collects information on every person in the US they can for their database and that the information is gleaned from a host of publicly available information. EAA is not running a credit check on you or looking to see any financial information at all.

Our policy and the training are designed to help all of us engage with youth appropriately and most if not all of the information there will be things you all find reasonable when looked at objectively. We view this as a living document and all involved with its development are open to feedback and expect to see the policies change with the times.

I hope that all of you consider that we do all of this for the kids, and that introducing them to aviation brings us all joy. I hope everyone will please continue to help our kids find that same joy!

[combahee]

First stop with the SSN on the checks and I think compliance will go up significantly.
Secondly revisit the plan rules where it applies to volunteers. It simply is not workable.
Third address situations where a second vetted volunteer is not practical or available, ie teaching ground school.
Review the volunteer requirements and supervision by vetted EAA members. If you need clarification I would be glad to call.

BTW yours is the first post that specifies what information is sought. If you read the disclosure information from EAA, and the vendor it is all encompassing.

[smutny]

Bret, there is zero reason for AmericaCheck to ask for our SSN number for the background check. It is an unnecessary piece of information for that exercise, but is an extremely sensitive piece of our information. THAT is the primary issue with the background check.

I've sent an email requesting information about EAA member spouses and how they will be vetted to assist in events. This has not been answered or addressed in any of the communications.

Moving further, as a member of the IAC, we are subject to EAA rules. We have a number of youth that will show up at contests from the local area. How is this supposed to be handled? In the interest of trying to grow our dwindling numbers, we try to promote IAC contests as a family event and put the kids to work as runners or other non-critical roles to keep them busy. Do we have to now stop that practice, thereby losing competitors since their families are not welcome?

And who, in the the IAC contest structure, is required to do this testing to allow youth at our events?

[martymayes]

That isn't the problem. Whoever drew this up and the heads at EAA who approved it are not living in the real world.

On the contrary, I see some of the reactions in this thread as not living in the real world. Other youth enrichment programs have been going forward with the similar requirements because it is the new real world standard. As the saying goes "change or die" and I'm pretty sure change will prevail.

[Byron J. Covey]

I would like to clarify a few things for everyone without interfering with your dialogue. EAA believes in letting our membership communicate freely, as many of you have here.

First, I would like to help you understand that this is not a movement initiated by Brian or Michelle or anyone else in the Young Eagles program. Some folks have been pretty mean to these two individuals who have served the YE program for many years now. These folks are the messengers and are here to help us all work through the transition this new policy brings.

There have been incidents in the past three years where YE pilots have been accused of illegal activities regarding youth outside of the program. While not directly linked to the program this has highlighted the fact that EAA has not kept step with the current practices of vetting people who have contact with children. The need for a youth protection policy became an obvious need and was not driven by any single factor, lawyer, or insurance company.

The policy is not intended to “kill” anything. It is intended to keep kids safe and to keep our programs alive and thriving for another 63 years.

EAA volunteers are the highest quality volunteers anywhere, and we have no suspicions that any of you have anything but positive intentions. The policy helps us ensure that everyone out there who is not as familiar with us understands we take safety of our youth as seriously as every other organization.

The policy does cover all EAA chapters, EAA activities in Oshkosh at the HQ and during AirVenture.

Background checks are tools used to assist youth protection programs in many many youth serving activities. They are not effective to prevent someone with no record from harming someone, but they are a tool used as a first line deterrent to a small number of very dangerous people from being involved with children.

AmericanChecked is our third party vendor for the background checks. They provide a secure portal, and have a variety of security procedures and processes in place. More information on them is available in the FAQ page. http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-education-and-resources/eaa-youth-education/~/link.aspx?_id=2F6EBB8041AB463EB5ECB90FEADB7C10&_z=z

The background check we are getting covers these items: (this is taken from our agreement with them)
Baseline Background Check $5.00/Person
· Nationwide Criminal Database
· Multi-State Sex and Violent Offenders Report
· Social Security Number Verification
· Address Locator Report
· Wanted Persons Security Screen

The sign off at the end of the background check is telling you that this company (and all like it) collects information on every person in the US they can for their database and that the information is gleaned from a host of publicly available information. EAA is not running a credit check on you or looking to see any financial information at all.

Our policy and the training are designed to help all of us engage with youth appropriately and most if not all of the information there will be things you all find reasonable when looked at objectively. We view this as a living document and all involved with its development are open to feedback and expect to see the policies change with the times.

I hope that all of you consider that we do all of this for the kids, and that introducing them to aviation brings us all joy. I hope everyone will please continue to help our kids find that same joy!

Thank you Bret.

But understand that some of us have had enough. Count me out, on principle, of any activity that requires the background check.

I will continue to work to introduce young people to sport aviation, but will do so independently from the EAA.


BJC

[avee8r]

Having literally grown up within the EAA community, I'm surprised this training and checking hasn't been implemented sooner. Imagine going to the local parking lot and having your child go for a ride in a Corvette or Motorcycle with a complete stranger for a half hour! EAA's high standards and reputation for ideals like Safety and Trust, are the things that ensure your cell phone will be there when you return from the shower at Oshkosh, etc...

Nobody's personal information, including finger prints are more "out there" than mine. I couldn't complete the training and submit the background check quick enough.

I'm Going Flying! :cool: :thumbsup:

Happy Landings..... Still!

[AcroGimp]

Thank you Bret.

But understand that some of us have had enough. Count me out, on principle, of any activity that requires the background check.

I will continue to work to introduce young people to sport aviation, but will do so independently from the EAA.


BJCSame here. And for the apologists accusing those of us who have issues and concerns with this new requirement as either 'having something to hide' or being unrealistic and basically providing a 'don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out' attitude, I hope your chapters don't have too many like you - explains why our sport and our organization is shrinking.

'Gimp

[Mark van Wyk]

Having literally grown up within the EAA community, I'm surprised this training and checking hasn't been implemented sooner. Imagine going to the local parking lot and having your child go for a ride in a Corvette or Motorcycle with a complete stranger for a half hour! EAA's high standards and reputation for ideals like Safety and Trust, are the things that ensure your cell phone will be there when you return from the shower at Oshkosh, etc...

Nobody's personal information, including finger prints are more "out there" than mine. I couldn't complete the training and submit the background check quick enough.

I'm Going Flying! :cool: :thumbsup:

Happy Landings..... Still!
I think the social security number is a non-issue is a total red-herring, but to each their own. I totally understand the need for this type of vetting, although some of the rules are a bit much. I took the online course and submitted my information, and I MAY go flying. We will see how this affects participation by pilots/planes. At the last YE event where I flew about 10 kids (one at a time right seat in my mighty C-150), there was a line stretching half a block all day long. I think the final number flown was 150 or maybe more. Most were flown three at a time in four-seater airplanes. We need lots of pilots and planes to make this a success. If say 50 percent or more of the pilots/planes bail, the rest are going to be stuck with the burden, and maybe some kids will need to be turned away. I'm not willing to be the only one at the airport wearing out my airplane, flying from morning til night, giving rides in my plane to every kid in town that wants one. I need the full support of my fellow YE pilots/plane owners, as in the past, or I too will be forced out.
I'm amazed at how many YE pilots are so willing to just let this program die over this.

[FlyingRon]

Brett, your post is not in jibe with reality. As has been pointed out, the site the EAA YE page directs you to is not "AmericanChecked.COM" nor does it appear to be secure. It is a site called 8F7.com which is anonymously registered and is protected by a security certificate not traceable to AmericanChecked.com. This may indeed be their site, but there is no way for us to tell. Your contractor is LYING to you. It is not SECURE if it is not verifiable.

Also Brett, the EAA portion of the site is BUSTED. I took the course but the thing errorred out after the final exam saying something about not being able to be saved. Now neither the class nor the background check are accessible to me. Both are stuck in some state called "PENDING." There is no help link or contact information that suggests what to do about this website failure.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Based on the content of the training we have become "mandated reporters" is this true? If so, specific information needs to be passed on regarding the reporting process.
jim

[Mark van Wyk]

Brett, your post is not in jibe with reality. As has been pointed out, the site the EAA YE page directs you to is not "AmericanChecked.COM" nor does it appear to be secure. It is a site called 8F7.com which is anonymously registered and is protected by a security certificate not traceable to AmericanChecked.com. This may indeed be their site, but there is no way for us to tell. Your contractor is LYING to you. It is not SECURE if it is not verifiable...
I trust EAA on this. Ron, your DISTRUST is sowing doubt and you are poisoning, and possibly killing off, the Young Eagles program. If you succeed, I hope you will be proud of yourself.

[PaulDow]

It looks to me like the 8F7.com web site is owned by Backchecked, LLC (http://www.backchecked.com/) in Phoenix. Their web site says they sell their background checking services to other companies who then sell to the retail customer. It looks like AmericanChecked is just buying Backchecked services. Backchecked probably hides behind 8F7 so the retail customers can't see that they're dealing with a 3rd party. I'm wondering if this is all run on GoDaddy servers, since that's who has the private registration of the domain backchecked.com too.

I'll bet most retail customers have their HR people do the background check, and they don't care since it isn't their personal information. This is probably one of the few instances where thousands of people getting the check done are actually seeing the web site.

[AcroGimp]

At the end of the day apparently some people need to be reminded that EAA, and by definition all of their programs (IAC, Warbirds of America, YE, etc.,), it all exists FOR and BECAUSE OF us, our dues money, our volunteerism, not the other way around.

I will continue to fly youngsters, but not under some poorly thought out, less well executed heavy-handed change to a program that has worked extremely well for 23 years.

We are VOLUNTEERS, not employees, we can do with our assets, time and gas money as we see fit.

Headquarters has demonstrated, again, why large bureaucracies are undeserving of blind trust.

'Gimp

[CraigCantwell]

Mark: You may think it's red herring or non issue, but I hope you never have to deal with identity theft, and it threatening your job. I've spent the last 16 years undoing the damage of having my identity and my wife's stolen 4 times now. Just when I thought we were done, we were notified by the OPM that not only was our information, but both our kids info was compromised because of the theft of information in my security clearance. I now get to start it all over again, but now for all four of us. My current clearance was held for additional investigation due to damaging information related to the last theft. If I had not been able to satisfy them, my clearance would have been disapproved, my job then gone and I would be prevented from working in my field. At my age, that would have financially destroyed me.

In the case of my Chapter, probably half the active members are now dealing with this information theft.

[Flyboyron]

I received my letter last night. My first reaction was, "This seems excessive, but I'll wait to hear more information on January 21st."

I then received my first call from an active YE pilot, telling me he will not be flying YE anymore because of this. I know he would easily pass the background check, because he has already passed many such checks through his job and other activities.

I sent the following email to the YE Office today:
________________________________________

Young Eagles Staff,

I received your letter announcing new training and background check requirements for Young Eagles volunteers yesterday.

In the letter, it states that more information will be provided in the January 21st e-newsletter.

Please include an explanation of EXACTLY why this has become a requirement for volunteering, how Young Eagle Coordinators will be able to confirm compliance during a Rally, and strategies on how to recruit and retain volunteer pilots and ground volunteers in the shadow of this additional burden.

My biggest concern is a potentially significant loss of support from within the Young Eagles volunteer community and the inability to "instantly" recruit pilots and ground volunteers during a rally.

Unlike in actual Youth organizations, Young Eagles pilot volunteers interact with young people for only 10-15 minutes while simultaneously operating an aircraft. In addition, all interaction on the ground occurs with a parent or guardian present in a public setting.

Also, unlike actual Youth organizations, a large majority of Young Eagles volunteers are casual volunteers; limiting their involvement to taking a few young people for a flight on a sunny morning or coming out to the airport to help collect forms. This is in contrast to Scouting or Boys/Girls Club volunteers, who organize weekly meetings with young people and invest significant time planning and executing substantial education programs and multiple-day trips.

I find it difficult to believe that the extremely low risk of abuse occurring during a Young Eagles flight experience justifies the implementation of requirements that will significantly reduce volunteer involvement.

EAA has always promoted the idea of education over regulation. This new MANDATORY training and background check seems to fly in the face of this philosophy.

I sincerely hope that the January 21st e-newsletter provides both justification and clarity regarding this new training and background check requirement.

Regards,

Edward J. Myers
President, EAA Chapter 1414
__________________________________________________ ______

I then received an email from EAA this evening entitled "Important Message From the EAA Chapter Office". In the email it states, "This policy keeps EAA in step with best practices that are common in youth education and recreation programs throughout the nation, ranging from scout programs to youth sports leagues."

There was no mention of a legal requirement, a response to an incident involving Young Eagles, or an insurance cost penalty that has driven this decision. Yet EAA is prepared to spend a significant amount of OUR money on this program with no tangible benefit to either the members or the organization.

I am seriously considering severing my involvement with the Young Eagles program, and possibly resigning my leadership position at my chapter.

If I decide to do either or both, I will first complete the training, background check, and receive my card to prove that I have nothing to hide.

I certainly hope that tomorrow's edition of e-Hotline provides better justification for this than "keeps EAA in step with best practices that are common in youth education and recreation programs"

Ed,

I'm with you.

I just completed the training, for the same reasons as you. i.e. So that no one thinks I have anything to hide when I complain about the policy. (As for identity theft, I, too, am glad EAA is big enough to have the resources to compensate me if this causes my identity to be compromised, because they certainly will be doing so...) I've had plenty of background and security checks, as well.

But I'm not sure I'll be using it. I just hit 300 YE's, and that may end up being about it. This politically correct overreaction to a non-threat is indeed probably going to be the death knell for what has been a very rewarding program. I am not quite as paranoid as some folks apparently are, but I agree that treating all of us like we're criminals is just too much like what the government's doing to us all lately.

I'm not sure I'll go along with helping to perpetuate that.

We're not running a nursery school, we're offering children a free airplane ride. I can give rides anytime I care to without the EAA sanction. And I'll probably do that. I got my first ride at age 14 from someone having nothing to do with an EAA program, and I can continue to fulfill my promise to myself to return the favor now that I have an airplane of my own, without EAA's sanction. It's just a shame, since I think this just may break the camel's back for the (up-to-now) excellent YE program.

But I do hope you don't choose to give up your EAA position. You're doing waaay too good a job for the chapter to lose you. It's better for us all to stay engaged and work to fix what's wrong, isn't it?

Ron
(Still at the top of the Chapter 1414 Young Eagle count for now, I think, followed closely by you!)

[RickG]

Young Eagle parents (and the EAA) implicitly trust our flying skills as well as the aircraft we show up in for these flights. If this aspect of the program required additional scrutiny for the purposes of insurance I would not have been surprised.

But the "persona" of the FAA licensed pilot? One can only presume something really, really, really horrific happened on one of these intro flights around the pattern. We are being trusted with these children's lives and to return them safely back to the ground ... but not enough to spend 15 minutes alone with them at 1000 feet AGL? That level of mistrust does not sit well with me. I joined the EAA specifically to participate in YE flights; there is nothing more fulfilling than sharing the wonderment of flight and the opportunity it has brought many of us. That said, my membership is due for renewal at the end of this month and there will be one less member. I'll put my resources elsewhere.

[Flyboyron]

My guess is that most of those saying they will "still give rides to kids" won't give rides to kids. My experience with Young Eagles is that they have an organized event at such local events as my home base airport Open House. Free rides are advertised, and literally hundreds of kids from the community and their parents show up line up for a ride. That's what's going to die if YE dies. But, to each their own.

Agreed, Mark. Hence the abject stupidity of the requirement, which has apparently touched a nerve among a very dedicated, generous, and cooperative group. Maybe YOU wouldn't fly kids outside such an event, but I certainly will. I did it before the YE program started, and I'll do it after it commits suicide. Yes, there certainly will be a falloff, which is why this dumb requirement has to be reversed.

Even in that case, I'll bet it has already permanently damaged one of the best things EAA has done in the last 25 years.

Ron

[Flyboyron]

Those protecting themselves won't be "trashing the YE program." The overactive bureaucrats who imposed the requirement causing good folks to quit will be doing that. Don't blame those protecting themselves from a real threat, just because you don't understand or appreciate the threat.

Blame those who impose an unnecessarily invasive requirement. Remember who the enemy is.

[Flyboyron]

Actually, the breach last year *was* a private company...under contract to the government. The government then terminated the contract for cause.

Ron Wanttaja

And that helped those of us who were affected (millions) in what way?

[Flyboyron]

On the contrary, I see some of the reactions in this thread as not living in the real world. Other youth enrichment programs have been going forward with the similar requirements because it is the new real world standard. As the saying goes "change or die" and I'm pretty sure change will prevail.

Then as you so kindly said to someone else a few posts back, "Let us know how that works out for you."

[DanH]

EAA believes in letting our membership communicate freely, as many of you have here.

EAA believes? Bret, we're EAA. You work for the membership.


The policy helps us ensure that everyone out there who is not as familiar with us understands we take safety of our youth as seriously as every other organization.

The very definition of "Security Theater". Useless, but it makes everybody feel good.


Background checks...are not effective to prevent someone with no record from harming someone..

You said it.


AmericanChecked is our third party vendor for the background checks....

...and is apparently a sales organization who farms the actual checks out to a 4th party you didn't know about.

[FlyingRon]

I trust EAA on this. Ron, your DISTRUST is sowing doubt and you are poisoning, and possibly killing off, the Young Eagles program. If you succeed, I hope you will be proud of yourself.

My mistrust is WELL FOUNDED. The EAA has had continual problems with computer security and is clear that they are somewhat deficient in their understanding of the issues. And yes, yes having had problems with this in the past, it's going to take a little more than just some EAA reps ASSERTION that things are safe especially in light of evidence to the contrary. NOBODY at the EAA has made any attempt to assuage these fears and I doubt that the tiny minority of EAA Members who show up on this forum are going to determine their opinions on the YOUNG EAGLES program solely on what either YOU or I say.

[AcroGimp]

Agreed, Mark. Hence the abject stupidity of the requirement, which has apparently touched a nerve among a very dedicated, generous, and cooperative group. Maybe YOU wouldn't fly kids outside such an event, but I certainly will. I did it before the YE program started, and I'll do it after it commits suicide. Yes, there certainly will be a falloff, which is why this dumb requirement has to be reversed.

Even in that case, I'll bet it has already permanently damaged one of the best things EAA has done in the last 25 years.

RonIt is the single best thing EAA has done in 25 years, by far and away. That is why this is angering so many of those of us who participate on one or more levels. I've worked events where 200+ kids get rides as a ground marshall, and have spent my time, my money and incurred wear and tear on my plane (or rentals) because I believe we need to get more kids interested in flying. But we now have fences around the airports, locks on hangar doors - it is bad enough before you add a new burden that can really only be interetpreted one way for far too many of us - no we need barb wire and a cone of silence around the kids lest one of us behave inappropriately - WHILE FLYING A PLANE FOR A SHORT TRIP AROUND THE PATTERN - EITHER WITH OTHER KIDS IN TH PLANE OR IN A TANDEM MILITARY TRAINER.

This just continues to make flying less fun and less worthy of sharing - the economic burden is already a barrier of entry to so many, let's make it better by cordoning off the airports and treating the guys who give so much as if they are one step away from becoming monsters.

Sorry for those who don't/won't try to understand but this is extremely aggravating for a whole host of reasons speaking for myself.

'Gimp

[wyoranch]

I am sorry to ask this, but has there been an "official" explanation as to why. Again I am arriving to the party late here. I for one keep my privacy rights very well guarded, but I do ( a small small portion of me at least) see a little ( very little) bit of reasoning.
Rick

[TedK]

As Aviators, we live Operational Risk Management. The Severity of a Risk, measured from green to yellow to red, is a product of the Impact of a Risk and its Probability. Headquarters, eg, the bureaucrati in EAA, not us the rank and file and reason for HQ and the association, has deemed the Risk of a Sexual Predator to be a Red Risk that has to be mitigated.

IM<HO, HQ is playing to some social current. The reality of the situation is that flying with any of us posses a more consequential event (death or serious injury) that has a much higher probability (I think there hav been two YE fatalities).

We are not the Scouts or CAP with extended overnight or secluded unchaperoned time with kids.

i am perfectly happy to declare to the parent of a potential YE copilot that I have not been vetted by the EAA Secret Police, and let them make an informed decision about placing their progeny in my airplane. I'd even wear a Scarlet T shirt with that notice on it.

Members of EAA are respected by the community because of the strength of their character and their actions, not the paper held by nameless bureacrati in Wisconsin.

Ted

[Mark van Wyk]

I have it from a reliable source that as of today, approximately 1,200 pilots have taken the training and submitted their info for the background check. That includes me. There are about 5,000 YE pilots nationwide, so that's about one-fifth that are complying. I hope that EAA does not back down, and holds its ground, and I hope that the YE program survives by bringing aboard a new crop of volunteers, who are willing to submit this simple requirement, and who will replace the quitters.

[nesincg]

First, I would like to help you understand that this is not a movement initiated by Brian or Michelle or anyone else in the Young Eagles program. Some folks have been pretty mean to these two individuals who have served the YE program for many years now. These folks are the messengers and are here to help us all work through the transition this new policy brings.
Brian and Michelle signed the letter to me. They instituted the policy by signing this letter. They may have thought they didn't have a choice, but they will lose their job if there is no longer a Young Eagles program. Perhaps they should have involved more people in the Young Eagles program before they issued this letter. They should have been better prepared.

I hate it that people have been mean to them, but they did not have a good answer for me when I called them. Brian did listen and was professional during my whole call.

[ssmdive]

I think the social security number is a non-issue is a total red-herring, but to each their own.

Ever had your information stolen and used? If not, then you don't really know why it is an issue.


I'm not willing to be the only one at the airport wearing out my airplane, flying from morning til night, giving rides in my plane to every kid in town that wants one. I need the full support of my fellow YE pilots/plane owners, as in the past, or I too will be forced out.
I'm amazed at how many YE pilots are so willing to just let this program die over this.

I am willing to fly kids all day long.... I am not willing to trust the EAA with my data. I guess since you are not willing to fly your plane and I am... That I care more about kids in aviation than you.

[combahee]

The main points here seem to be the background check. But it isn't the only issue. If one were to actually read the whole Youth Protection Plan they would see it is unworkable for most YE flights and rallys. In addition we would have to curtail many other programs. Finally the vetting and supervision of virtually all the volunteers at the events is onerous. Imagine at least two "supervisors" wandering around looking for any inappropriate behavior!
Add to this the requirement for each chapter or YE pilot to keep records of each child, their parents information for at least 3 years.

[WLIU]

I am late to this discussion, but I have to weigh in that I see this as equivalent to the big tall black chain link fence that the FAA pays for around our airport. Even though the folks inside the fence smile, the message is still "go away you are not welcome we don't trust you".

I have been a vocal supporter of Young Eagles around my area since the beginning of the program. Being in the northeast and flying an airplane with an open front cockpit, I have not flown anywhere near as many Young Eagles as a lot of my peers, but I have encouraged a lot of those peers to fly kids and, during my years as a chapter president, helped organize.

That is all history. A background check to take a kid up for 15 mins to make them smile just doesn't make sense. Too many more important items on the personal todo list. And like a medical, a silly card just says I was once a good guy and nothing about what I am for those next 15 minutes.

Frankly, pilots, compared to the general population, are the best people to trust your kid with for 15 minutes. They spend hours, days, and weeks, learning how to safely operate a complicated machine in an unforgiving environment. In general they are high achievers, careful, and don't often do self-destructive and impulsive things. So what's the problem being solved? The "everyone else is doing it" answer doesn't work. We do everything in aviation for a reason. What's the reason?

So I'm done. I have better uses for my time and enthusiasm. Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[ysifly2]

The main points here seem to be the background check. But it isn't the only issue. If one were to actually read the whole Youth Protection Plan they would see it is unworkable for most YE flights and rallys. In addition we would have to curtail many other programs. Finally the vetting and supervision of virtually all the volunteers at the events is onerous. Imagine at least two "supervisors" wandering around looking for any inappropriate behavior!
Add to this the requirement for each chapter or YE pilot to keep records of each child, their parents information for at least 3 years.

Exactly! ... more briefly stated of what I had posted #63 (http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?6467-Young-Eagles-and-Background-Security-Checks&p=52837&viewfull=1#post52837). It is a struggle as it is many times to get enough ground support volunteers and this will now make that even more challenging. Not to mention even more structured planning and regimented "rally"... rather than enjoying a day at the airport and sharing our enjoyment of the sport of aviation, we will have to "execute" a 'airplane ride'.
And it is still not clear to me if we are now not allowed to perform young eagle flights without being the above stated rigid environment.... and if I have a four place airplane or not, cannot take a single young eagle, but rather 'must' take someone with?

For those that have already proceeded with the training and background check.. good for you.
Do you also have the minimum 2 other supervisors lined up and ready to support? Do you have your data base created to capture all the relevant information, in a secure data base, and have things in place to maintain the records for the allotted time? Do you have dedicated people already within your chapters that do such? Maybe you have a large chapter base and this is only a minor learning... for some smaller chapters, I can see this a significant challenge any further "rally's"...

[Turbomallard]

For those who believe that this new policy isn't necessary (I'm not a fan of it and will probably not continue with the YE program because of the hassle but believe the policy is necessary), consider the following.

I am very familiar with a chapter which it turned out had a registered sex offender as a member. The chapter did not know of his status until he left the area. This person was terrific, well liked, and an excellent volunteer. He never attended YE activity, and in retrospect now we know why.

However... what if he had? And what if somebody from the public recognized him from the sex offender registry (which includes photos)?

Think about that for a minute. That concerned parent could easily have called the police, a nasty scene would have been created, and everyone would immediately have had a VERY negative opinion of the chapter and EAA in general. Even if legal action didn't ensue, the media would have had a field day plastering the chapter on their lead story and telling the world how the chapter and organization took NO precautions to ensure the children weren't interacting with a known predator. Imagine the damage that would be done, even if there was no lawsuit that would seriously damage EAA at best and easily could do worse.

Regardless of one's personal opinion as to whether or not society is overreacting and overprotecting children, the fact is that the standards are now extremely high and we all have to work within them. I work in higher education and have to take annual online training on dealing with minors even though I hardly see them unless a high school brings a group to campus.

The example I mentioned above could EASILY have happened. We had no idea of the status of the member in question.

As a wise pilot once was quoted when he physically could no longer fly the dream airplane he built just a few years before and he had to sell it, "I don't have to like reality, but I have to accept it. I must accept it."
We can all still take kids for airplane rides as private individuals... even in the event of the worst case with the YE situation, we can still continue the mission on our own. Get busy.

Jim Cunningham

[Jeff Point]

Ok Jim. Let's weigh the slim possibility of your scenario against the very real loss of YE volunteers and pilots. Cost/benefit analysis? Chicken Little much?

[Turbomallard]

Ok Jim. Let's weigh the slim possibility of your scenario against the very real loss of YE volunteers and pilots. Cost/benefit analysis? Chicken Little much?

Good point (pun intended). I believe that the scenario I quoted could have happened all too easily; I wouldn't call it slim. I was there. I know the individual in question.

I would guess that the consequences of implementing this policy could mean the end of the program. Having given 50+ kids rides, I would hate to see that outcome. But against the risk of the tremendous damage that could be done to the organization in general, I would have to come down on the side of having a policy to protect the organization. We can fly the kids as individuals.

[combahee]

All 7 YE pilots in my chapter are withdrawing from the program as of the deadline date. The chapter officers are also considering withdrawing from the EAA as well. We have a couple teen members that wouldn't be able to attend meetings under this new policy. In addition they are talking about going on their own and continuing a program like YE but outside EAA. They are not sure of the value of membership in the EAA.

[rwanttaja]

And that helped those of us who were affected (millions) in what way?
Please note the context of my post...someone implying that private industry would do better than the government, when, in fact, the failure was in private industry.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

I am sorry to ask this, but has there been an "official" explanation as to why. Again I am arriving to the party late here. I for one keep my privacy rights very well guarded, but I do ( a small small portion of me at least) see a little ( very little) bit of reasoning.
Rick

Post #43 was by an EAA staffer, explaining the background.

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?6467-Young-Eagles-and-Background-Security-Checks&p=52872&viewfull=1#post52872

Ron Wanttaja

[PaulDow]

It's official! Here's the first person who has got his result back from the background check.

5312

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Back in the old days terrible things happened to our youth but we didn’t know it, people weren’t watching or looking the other way ( eg Catholic church) that is not the world we live in and I am okay with that. The days of blind faith that everyone has the best of intentions toward our youth have gone – because it isn’t true and it takes just one child that we know to go missing or be harmed to change that. We know so much more about the effects of abuse these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_Childhood_Experiences_Study
I , like many of you, was left to roam the neighborhood all day, with one house or another hosting lunch and only at dinner would we be missed. People hitchhiked around the country, people left keys in the car and houses open in many communities. That is not the world today. FBI National Crime Information Center’s Missing Person File. In 2014 there were 466,949 entries made by law enforcement for those younger than 18.
I spent 2 ½ years working with youth in middle and high school as an AmeriCorps mentor. The training we received ( plus full DoJ checks) and enforced were put in place to protect first the students, then us and finally the organizations under whose banner we operated. We received training as mandated reporters and I had several occasions to make those reports to CPS/law enforcement. We had a dozen systems in place so that when we were meeting one-on–one or as a group there was little chance of misinterpretation of the activities we were doing. This was to assure a line of trust from students through to parents, guardians and administrators that was of the highest order.
It is true that our contacts are shorter and commonly in groups. Pilots are pretty busy in our small planes so that the possibility is low but the general public doesn’t know that. Parents send their kids to fly in tiny planes with total strangers. Parents are much more anxious these days and building trust is the first step to make that easier. This enhancement to the YE program is part of the trust cycle.
I know that many of our pilots/volunteers will feel put out and leap to the conclusion that they are not trusted. This is a natural reaction ( see posts above) but it’s not about you, it’s about the kids and their parents. Many of us have difficulty with change and this is a bit of a grief cycle to deal with. I hope that those members and chapters will have a chance to work through the feelings and return. If not, you can be very proud of the work you have done, the fostering of love of aviation and supporting career paths in the field . Young Eagles- the world’s greatest outreach program.
We already know that there will be tweaks to this program and our constructive feedback will make it better and more functional.

[Mark van Wyk]

http://www.twincities.com/crime/ci_24979448/ramsey-man-faces-more-charges-sexual-abuse-case

This link was posted on the AOPA Red Board. Note the text in the middle of the article highlighted in bold:

Ramsey man faces more charges in sexual abuse case
By Sarah Horner
shorner@pioneerpress.com
Posted: 01/23/2014 12:01:00 AM CST | Updated: about a year ago

A Ramsey man who used to volunteer with youth faces more charges of sexual abuse against children.

Chad Michael Geyen, 44, was charged in Anoka County Court in November with three counts of first-degree criminal sexual conduct based on allegations that he had inappropriate sexual relations with four underage boys.

The Anoka County Attorney's office since has tacked on four additional charges related to the discovery of two other alleged victims.

Geyen now faces a total of five counts of first-degree criminal sexual conduct, one count of second-degree criminal sexual conduct and one count of solicitation of a child to engage in sexual conduct, according to an amended criminal complaint filed last week in Anoka County Court.

Geyen made his first appearance Thursday on the new charges. He has been free on bail since the first charges were filed against him, according to Amanda Vickstrom, spokesman for the county attorney's office.

Neither he nor his attorney Ryan Garry could be reached for comment Thursday.

Geyen's alleged victims, four of whom are now adults, were from the ages of 4 to 10 when Geyen reportedly began sexually abusing them, according to the complaint.

Geyen is accused of engaging in hundreds of sexual acts with the victims, including oral and anal sex and inappropriate touching.

The abuse is alleged to have taken place at Geyen's home, his cabin, a YMCA, the Blaine airport and in Geyen's Cessna 177 Cardinal airplane.
Advertisement

The father of two has a private pilot's license and volunteers with the Experimental Aircraft Association's Young Eagles program, which coordinates flights with volunteer pilots for young people interested in flying.

Geyen has flown with more than 100 Young Eagles.

He also volunteered with the Big Brothers Big Sisters program in the Twin Cities from 1989 to 1993, where he met at least one of his alleged victims, according to authorities.

That young man, now 26, served as the ring bearer in Geyen's wedding and temporarily lived with him as his foster child.

The amended complaint also reveals new information of Geyen's life online.

According to an analysis of his computer, he reportedly frequented a website called boylinks.net and created a fake Facebook profile pretending to be a 13-year-old girl. Geyen allegedly interacted with six male teens online under that guise, the complaint said.

His next court appearance is Feb. 21.

Sarah Horner can be reached at 651-228-5539.

Follow her at twitter.com/hornsarah.

[Dave S]

I don't particularly like the idea of a background check but I understand the need for it. My problem is submitting my SSN to an anonymous website. The police can run an instant background check using a driver's license number. Why can't who ever is conducting the check for EAA do the same?

[FlyingRon]

I'm not supposed to be within 200 feet of a school...or a Chuck E. Cheese.

[tomkk]

I don't particularly like the idea of a background but I understand the need for it. My problem is submitting my SSN to an anonymous website. The police can run an instant background check using a driver's license number. Why can't who ever is conducting the check for EAA do the same?

That's the only problem I have. Understand completely the social pressure for background checks, although it's pretty superfluous in the presence of the two person rule, I just don't understand why it was implemented this way wit 2nd and 3rd tier subcontractors, questionable URLs, etc.

[Jeff Point]

The story that Mark posted is awful and is exactly the kind of nightmare scenario that everyone fears, me included.

Having said that, please explain how EAA's new policy, had it been in effect then, would have prevented this? Was he a previously convicted sex offender? Would a background check have revealed anything alarming?

The answer is that in al likelihood, it would not have prevented this. That's why the term "security theater" is used to describe it.

[combahee]

http://www.twincities.com/crime/ci_24979448/ramsey-man-faces-more-charges-sexual-abuse-case

This link was posted on the AOPA Red Board. Note the text in the middle of the article highlighted in bold:

.

So tell me Mark, did this man have a prior record or was he a registered sex offender? Would the EAA's program have caught him? Did he violate anything at the YE flights?

[Mike M]

May we continue to use those Young Eagle brochures for individual (non-Rally) flights without background checks? Did we miss the answer?


And it is still not clear to me if we are now not allowed to perform young eagle flights without being the above stated rigid environment....


OK, for us stupid people...does this mean an individual aviator can't tell a kid at church that flying is fun, offer to take the kid flying, and get the parent's written and signed permission on a young eagles form to take the kid in a two-seat aircraft - without going through all this gobbledegook too???



Remember Exemption 10841? We rejected it. Too onerous. Same thing here? For many, apparently so (emphasis added):


This just continues to make flying less fun and less worthy of sharing - the economic burden is already a barrier of entry to so many, let's make it better by cordoning off the airports and treating the guys who give so much as if they are one step away from becoming monsters.


...I have to weigh in that I see this as equivalent to the big tall black chain link fence that the FAA pays for around our airport. Even though the folks inside the fence smile, the message is still "go away you are not welcome we don't trust you"...


...Not to mention even more structured planning and regimented "rally"... rather than enjoying a day at the airport and sharing our enjoyment of the sport of aviation, we will have to "execute" a 'airplane ride'.

I was blessed to have a happy career getting "paid to fly." The common thread peeking out of the weave here is that so many others are in aviation for the same reason. Not just silly grin fun. The good people we work with. As the FAA reminds us, flight time is compensation. The money was to PUT UP WITH THE BULL MANURE. Eventually the bull goes to the slaughterhouse. Mmm, mmm, t-bone steaks.

(P.S. Three people in my immediate family have been sexually molested, one by a neighbor who was a disabled WWI vet, one when 4yo in the Oshkosh college dorm during whatever they called the convention in '74, one as a young teen by a retired Marine. I know s-it happens. We all are fine, thank you very much.)

[DanH]

Balance.

For every Geyen, we have 20,000 or more volunteers and pilots who are very fine people.

This is Raymond Griffin:

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/Dan51/EAA/Raymond_zpsoxxnwaki.jpg (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/Dan51/media/EAA/Raymond_zpsoxxnwaki.jpg.html)

Raymond was one of the ten charter members of our Chapter, and big believer in the YE program. Early on, he noticed something; parents who brought their kids to YE events very often had younger children (less then 7 years old) in tow, and very often those children were hugely disappointed when told they were not old enough for a flight. So Raymond, at around age 80, decided to do something about it. Over the next ten years, working mostly alone in a small shop behind his house, he built two biplanes on powered pedestals, with fully operating controls. And then he donated them to the Chapter.

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/Dan51/EAA/Simulators%20900w_zpswgsdwlgz.jpg (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/Dan51/media/EAA/Simulators%20900w_zpswgsdwlgz.jpg.html)

The "simulators" are very popular. We've taken them to regional fly-ins and the local Air Force base, as well as setting them up at our own YE/Airport Open House events. Naturally, since they're intended to serve the needs of very small children, they require a lot of supervision. And I might add, since many of the children need a bit of help to enter and exit these "real" airplanes, that means picking them up...you know, actually touching them. We depend heavily on volunteers to run the simulators. Here's one:

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/Dan51/EAA/IMG_0896_zpsplgdplto.jpg (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/Dan51/media/EAA/IMG_0896_zpsplgdplto.jpg.html)

I apologize sincerely, but I don't know this young lady's name. I think she is related to one of our members. The point here is that she was a true volunteer that day, a walk-on, someone who offered to spend her day making small kids very happy with an airplane experience.

Raymond died a few weeks ago. I knew him as well as anyone, and I'm pretty sure he would have told HQ to stuff their background check. I can't speak for the young lady. I can say that YE is a heck of a lot more than paperwork and rules and corporate style CYA, and demanding pedophile checks from such people is a gross disconnect from reality at the Chapter level.

[skyfixer8]

I'd like to add my $.02 worth with a couple questions for any staff reading these. Since the main argument seems to be having to give out a SSN for a verification check (? ), why doesn't EAA TELL this company they have hired that this WILL NOT not be a requirement. Second, how about local law enforcement at the chapter locations doing the background check and then signing off on an EAA document to be kept by the chapter ? Just a thought.

Bill Landry

[Onex33]

While I fully support protecting children or anyone else from abuse of any kind, I think this whole background check will kill the Young Eagles program. I have volunteered at several events as ground support(my plane is single seat) and have seen the smiles from kids after their flights concluded. That said I think of what happens when a dog hurts a child or adult for that matter-the dog is often euthanized. I would be ok with that when it comes to pedophiles but it won't happen in today's society where nobody is responsible for their actions. If punishments were known to be more severe for certain crimes, those crimes might go down-just saying.

Loren Sievila
Onex 33
N331EX

[Jim Rosenow]

While I fully support protecting children or anyone else from abuse of any kind, I think this whole background check will kill the Young Eagles program. I have volunteered at several events as ground support(my plane is single seat) and have seen the smiles from kids after their flights concluded. That said I think of what happens when a dog hurts a child or adult for that matter-the dog is often euthanized. I would be ok with that when it comes to pedophiles but it won't happen in today's society where nobody is responsible for their actions. If punishments were known to be more severe for certain crimes, those crimes might go down-just saying.

Loren Sievila
Onex 33
N331EX

Loren, I concur completely with your statement about lack of personal accountability in our society. I was third-generation law enforcement, and watched the de-generative process from the inside as part of my earliest recollections. Given the state of affairs, I am happy that our current fourth-generation LE is a prosecutor (attorney), and not on the road.

I see the flip side of the coin as the 'guilty till proven innocent' attitude of administrative and 'corporate' law, such as the example we have been provided by EAA corporate. In my opinion, it does nothing to protect pilots flying YE's, very little to protect potential victims (previously known as kids), but could potentially save corporate some grief (aka cya).

My wife and I will continue to fly kids. (My first logged 'kid' flight was in 1971, just for perspective.) We love sharing the thrill of flight, and I think it's done some good. She's a CFII, and several kids have come back to her a few years later for training. While I applauded the YE program when it began, neither of us signed up. We continued on our own then, and will do so now.

Jim

[CraigCantwell]

Bret: Even if the policy was not designed to kill off YE participation, it will by it's very wording. Under this new policy, if a chapter has an under 18 year old member, at EVERY MEETING, chapter staff will have to determine if the minor is there, and if so, is their parent there. If not, then does he have a permission slip to be there. IF he has the slip, then are there at least 4 cleared members present that will supervise the minor so he can remain at the meeting, or are we going to have to send them home. How is this going to help encourage kids to be a part of the chapter, and how many adult members are going to keep coming to the meetings if they are required to monitor minors and their monitors? In reality, smaller chapters are most likely going to respond by either discouraging under 18 membership, or outright not allowing it. When your cost of compliance for something exceeds the benefits gained, organizations invariably cut the item.

[AcroGimp]

Balance.

For every Geyen, we have 20,000 or more volunteers and pilots who are very fine people.

This is Raymond Griffin:

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/Dan51/EAA/Raymond_zpsoxxnwaki.jpg (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/Dan51/media/EAA/Raymond_zpsoxxnwaki.jpg.html)

Raymond was one of the ten charter members of our Chapter, and big believer in the YE program. Early on, he noticed something; parents who brought their kids to YE events very often had younger children (less then 7 years old) in tow, and very often those children were hugely disappointed when told they were not old enough for a flight. So Raymond, at around age 80, decided to do something about it. Over the next ten years, working mostly alone in a small shop behind his house, he built two biplanes on powered pedestals, with fully operating controls. And then he donated them to the Chapter.

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/Dan51/EAA/Simulators%20900w_zpswgsdwlgz.jpg (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/Dan51/media/EAA/Simulators%20900w_zpswgsdwlgz.jpg.html)

The "simulators" are very popular. We've taken them to regional fly-ins and the local Air Force base, as well as setting them up at our own YE/Airport Open House events. Naturally, since they're intended to serve the needs of very small children, they require a lot of supervision. And I might add, since many of the children need a bit of help to enter and exit these "real" airplanes, that means picking them up...you know, actually touching them. We depend heavily on volunteers to run the simulators. Here's one:

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/Dan51/EAA/IMG_0896_zpsplgdplto.jpg (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/Dan51/media/EAA/IMG_0896_zpsplgdplto.jpg.html)

I apologize sincerely, but I don't know this young lady's name. I think she is related to one of our members. The point here is that she was a true volunteer that day, a walk-on, someone who offered to spend her day making small kids very happy with an airplane experience.

Raymond died a few weeks ago. I knew him as well as anyone, and I'm pretty sure he would have told HQ to stuff their background check. I can't speak for the young lady. I can say that YE is a heck of a lot more than paperwork and rules and corporate style CYA, and demanding pedophile checks from such people is a gross disconnect from reality at the Chapter level.Just wanted to recognize how incredibly awesome this post is - those simulators are amazing. THIS is what EAA is about (or at least was about), and the Unified Flying Octogenarians in my chapter, and IAC, and Warbirds, and designing and building and flying our own planes, and yes introducing new people to aviation. EAA is (or was) about so much more than OSH or being like 'other' organizations that have succumbed to security theater.

As with most recent gun control pushes the proposal would do nothing about anything that either has happened or could have happened using the story posted earlier as an example, it is 'doing something' for something's sake, with no real benefit but actual impacts (both intentional as well as unintended) to those of us doing the volunteering.

Ending my YE affiliation and support does not mean I won't continue to take kids, or coworkers, or family members flying - it just means I'll do it on my own terms.

It was a good run while it lasted.

'Gimp

[dougbush]

Please note the context of my post...someone implying that private industry would do better than the government, when, in fact, the failure was in private industry. Ron Wanttaja So, the private contractor was held accountable. You forgot to tell me how the government involvement made the situation better.

[rwanttaja]

So, the private contractor was held accountable. You forgot to tell me how the government involvement made the situation better.
I made no such claim. Someone accused Party #1 of being at fault, and I merely stated that the Party #2 was the actual guilty party.

Frankly, the Government DOES protect sensitive information better than private industry does. When it choses to. But the cost is very, very high, and, as the Snowden case showed, it's not perfect either. The cost is not just money, either, but convenience.

Ron Wanttaja

[dougbush]

You implied a private company would be less trustworthy.

So no, I'm not impressed with a *private* company trying to accrue the same information
When a private company exposes your social, people get fired. When government officials expose secrets so sensitive congressional intelligence committees can't know about them, they're still eligible to run for President.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Let's leave perceptions out of this thread - especially those that might align with our political affiliations. There is enough hysteria in our lives -especially now. Getting our nickers all wound up and making rash decisions in the heat of the moment is not productive.
Let's work with facts and be constructive in our feedback. The more we know about this (any) change makes our decisions more intelligent.
This thread is about change.

[RickG]

Just curious ...

Does the FAA run background checks against these "lists" when you first apply for a rating? Or each time your FAA Medical is renewed? How about CFI's who (potentially) could spend countless hours with a minor during early training. Are they required to have similar checks?

[WLIU]

Today the answer is no, no, no. That said, the Student Pilot Certificate issuance process is changing so that a background check can be done. But it appears that this is to allow scrutiny of foreign nationals training in the US. If I understand correctly, Congress mandated this. But once you are certificated at any level, if you only fly for recreation, whether your ship is a C-150 or a Lear/Bombardier 80, you never run into an FAA mandated background check.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[FlyingRon]

TIf I understand correctly, Congress mandated this.

People keep saying this, but frankly, it's not DOCUMENTED anywhere. The argument the FAA used to impose this piece of stupidity was the requirement Congress made to mandate PHOTO pilot certificates. Only in the FAA's illegal and warped inane behavior with the TSA putting their hand up their back to work their mouth would you stretch the intent of congress into this behavior.

[Mark van Wyk]

At this point, I am noting that for the most part, the biggest objection many have is the submission of the Social Security Number as part of the background check. I submitted mine, but here is my question: if they got rid of that requirement, would more of you reconsider and take the training, and take the background check? If they only asked for your name, address, etc., and no SSN? Otherwise you would put up with the new rules, no matter how infuriating they may seem? I ask because I don't want to see the ranks of YE pilots depleted and my own local YE program destroyed. LET'S LOOK FOR A SOLUTION.
And, as for those who have agendas, and who only want to badmouth YE and EAA in general, and who want to see the program disintegrate over this, PLEASE GO AWAY. You have made your positions known. Your input is no longer needed.

[combahee]

Mark, personally I don't have a problem with a background check, sans the SSN. Once they have it who is to know what database I will end up on? Verification of SSN is something for an employer, not a YE pilot.
As I read through the entire plan, as it pertains to YE flights is simply unworkable. It would decimate the ranks of volunteers, prohibit volunteers of the day etc. Some of the rules are confusing and vague. If a pilot has a 2 seat aircraft the parent would need additional warnings. Nothing about a single youngster in a multi seat aircraft. So does that mean a chaperone is needed?
The rules go on to require X number of trained supervisors looking for problems. They aren't to do other jobs at the rally. Where does the EAA think we are going to get these volunteers. What do we do when a single kid or siblings can only make it to the airport on an off day and they fly alone with a pilot? Not all flights are at rallys.
My granddaughter is a YE. No one wants to protect her more than I do. But I would rather sit this out than try to work within unworkable rules and put my financial information out there.
If the EAA had come to us, the chapter presidents and YE coordinator and worked with us then 99% of the pproblems could have been resolved before the announcement.
Also keep in mind these rules apply to all EAA activities. But not all youth activities are the same or have the same risks.
My suggestion to EAA is delete the SSN requirement. I'd bet 90% of those objecting would comply.
Next is to separate the YE program from other youth programs that require more time in contact with youngsters.
Third rethink the background check for volunteers not in direct contact with the kids or minimal contact, such as the wife printing the certificates, the volunteer walking the child to the aircraft etc.
Finally put a notice on a waiver that incidental contact can occur strapping the child in, helping them and out of the aircraft etc.
The whole program needs to be better thought out, this is just a disaster as presented.

[AcroGimp]

At this point, I am noting that for the most part, the biggest objection many have is the submission of the Social Security Number as part of the background check. I submitted mine, but here is my question: if they got rid of that requirement, would more of you reconsider and take the training, and take the background check? If they only asked for your name, address, etc., and no SSN? Otherwise you would put up with the new rules, no matter how infuriating they may seem? I ask because I don't want to see the ranks of YE pilots depleted and my own local YE program destroyed. LET'S LOOK FOR A SOLUTION.
And, as for those who have agendas, and who only want to badmouth YE and EAA in general, and who want to see the program disintegrate over this, PLEASE GO AWAY. You have made your positions known. Your input is no longer needed.Sorry, you don't control content on the board - if EAA wants to censor that is their prerogative as owners of the site, you, not so much.

My objection is to the WHOLE THING so removing the SSN requirement would not change my opinion/opposition. YE has worked so well for the past 23 years specifically because of its' light beaurocratic burden in my opinion. Anyone who wanted to be a part could be a part, and it took very little in terms of paperwork or administration.

None of us who are objecting to this are bad mouthing the YE program itself, WE ARE THE YOUNG EAGLES PROGRAM - we are objecting to a heavy-handed, poorly thought out and even less well executed reactionary decision that 'came down from on high' and the subsequent 'take it or leave it / our way or the highway / don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out' attitude from HQ and apologists like yourself.

The specific example you provided would have not been discovered by this program, and that is, near as I can tell, the closest thing to an actual 'problem' YE has had after 23 YEARS and flying almost 2 MILLION kids. Add in the goofball who, gasp, took the kids to lunch, and you still have no actual examples of what this new requirement is ostensibly to prevent, ever actually occurring, over 23 years with again, almost 2 million kids.

I don't want to see YE disintegrate, but it is actually happening, sent my e-mail to our local coordinator this morning telling him I will no longer be involved. It is happengin not because we are not committed to the mission, but because HQ has created an undue and unnecessary burden, on top of everything else we already put up with, and done so on a way that many of us, rightly or wrongly, are interpreting as either insulting, or as a massively indefensible overreach that exposes critical personal information to potential misuse/abuse of theft.

I hope that HQ hears these concerns and either abandons this ridiculous plan, or significantly modifies it in such a way as to respond the real concerns expressed.

'Gimp

[Auburntsts]

At this point, I am noting that for the most part, the biggest objection many have is the submission of the Social Security Number as part of the background check. I submitted mine, but here is my question: if they got rid of that requirement, would more of you reconsider and take the training, and take the background check? If they only asked for your name, address, etc., and no SSN? Otherwise you would put up with the new rules, no matter how infuriating they may seem? I ask because I don't want to see the ranks of YE pilots depleted and my own local YE program destroyed. LET'S LOOK FOR A SOLUTION.

For me absolutely. I have no problem with the program per se after having been involved in Scouting with my son for many years. I think that is who EAA should be modeling their program after. Until they get this background BS fixed I'm out.

[CraigCantwell]

Mark, besides the SSN problem, the rules as written are way out of proportion to what is needed. We have some under 18 year old members in our chapter. Under this set of rules, should their parents not attend, there are written permission requirements, record keeping that must be done and we must dedicate 4 cleared members to forgo meeting participation to oversee the under 18 members. Oh yeah, and if one the minors gets so much as a paper cut during the time they are at the meeting, it has to be reported to national.

The policy right now, is badly written, unwieldy and mostly unworkable unless a chapter has a significant number of members. What is worse, is that this was sprung on us with no discussion or input and developed by people that seem to have no good grasp on reality or common sense. The first we heard of it was the 20th of this month. It needs to be pulled back and rewritten so that it can be a workable policy rather than this monstrosity.

[vaflier]

Mark, if they delete the need for a SSNumber and any other extraneous data I for one will gladly have the background check done. I very much enjoy the Young Eagles flights and gladly donate my fuel , aircraft and time. I am all for doing what can be reasonably done to protect young people from the degenerates that exist in our society. As a Foster Parent I have seen the devastation abuse can cause. Including one young man trying to committ suicide multiple times as a result of abuse. Having said that I also believe we have to be careful not to go to far and to implement programs in the best possible way, to cause the least intrusion on peoples lives, especially volunteers. This is were the EAA has messed up and they do need to fix it. There is still time to correct this and I truly hope management will see their mistake and fix it Pronto.

[ssmdive]

And, as for those who have agendas, and who only want to badmouth YE and EAA in general, and who want to see the program disintegrate over this, PLEASE GO AWAY. You have made your positions known. Your input is no longer needed.

You have pretty much been the only individual bad mouthing other individuals. We brought forth issues and you ridiculed us for them. I ask again: Ever have your ID stolen? Because if you have not, then you are talking out of pure ignorance about how big of a deal getting your ID stolen is. Instead, you have insulted and belittled anyone that did not agree with you, yet tried to blame everyone else for the failure of dialog.

As I stated before, in clear and plain English... If I have to submit my SSN to the EAA so I can volunteer my time.... There is no way in hell I am going to participate.

As I emailed the EAA: What is the EAA going to do if their vendor loses my data and my ID is stolen? Are they going to help me deal with the creditors? Are they going to help me deal with the police? Are they going to help hire a lawyer to fix my credit? Are they going to compensate me for any loss?

Once they require my data - They then become responsible for the care of that data. But I know that the EAA is not going to stand behind and take care of any issue that comes from requiring my data.

In addition:
1. The EAA seems to have forgotten who they work for. They seem to think we work for them as opposed to them working for the membership.

2. The 'solution' at best is a heavy handed over reaction.

3. While the EAA claims to have asked for input, it seems they only asked for input from selected people and not the membership at large... Again, see point #1.

4. The unintended consequences of this action will create a significant burden on the people who *volunteer* their time. It is difficult to find people willing to spend time to run events like this and you have just added additional burdens to anyone willing to participate.

So before you start slinging blame at everyone else... Maybe you should look at the people who ACTUALLY DID THIS ACTION and stop making excuses for them.

Lastly, you can't insult and belittle people and then blame them for not participating in a 'discussion' when that 'discussion' is nothing more than you insulting them.

You want to have a discussion? Drop the attitude that everyone else is wrong.

[tomkk]

fwiw, independent of EAA policy, although they can't require you to provide your SSN, doctors, dentists and others who simply won't provide their service without your SSN, have already pretty much provided potential compromise of our data. Freezing your credit reports will go a long way towards protecting you against identity theft. Unfreeze it if/when you need credit yourself. We did that years ago when it became clear that our data was out there and no one was interested in adequately protecting it.

[jgnunn]

You have pretty much been the only individual bad mouthing other individuals. We brought forth issues and you ridiculed us for them. I ask again: Ever have your ID stolen? Because if you have not, then you are talking out of pure ignorance about how big of a deal getting your ID stolen is. Instead, you have insulted and belittled anyone that did not agree with you, yet tried to blame everyone else for the failure of dialog.

As I stated before, in clear and plain English... If I have to submit my SSN to the EAA so I can volunteer my time.... There is no way in hell I am going to participate.

As as I emailed the EAA: What is the EAA going to do if their vendor loses my data and my ID is stolen? Are they going to help me deal with the creditors? Are they going to help me deal with the police? Are they going to help hire a lawyer to fix my credit? Are they going to compensate me for any loss?

Once they require my data - They then become responsible for the care of that data. But I know that the EAA is not going to stand behind and take care of any issue that comes from requiring my data.

In addition:
1. The EAA seems to have forgotten who they work for. They seem to think we work for them as opposed to them working for the membership.

2. The 'solution' at best is a heavy handed over reaction.

3. While the EAA claims to have asked for input, it seems they only asked for input from selected people and not the membership at large... Again, see point #1.

4. The unintended consequences of this action will create a significant burden on the people who *volunteer* their time. It is difficult to find people willing to spend time to run events like this and you have just added additional burdens to anyone willing to participate.

So so before you start slinging blame at everyone else... Maybe you should look at the people who ACTUALLY DID THIS ACTION and stop making excuses for them.

Lastly, you can't insult and belittle people and then blame them for not participating in a 'discussion' when that 'discussion' is nothing more than you insulting them.

You want to have a discussion? Drop the attitude that everyone else is wrong.

+1!
Stop mouthing off, and listen to the TREND of the posts - not individual posts, then you might realize that there actually might be real issues that need to be addressed.

[pacerpilot]

This is sad. Shame on EAA. The FAR's and previous EAA policy/procedures were quite adequate to give rides. Oh well, I didn't give many rides so going from "some to none" won't matter.

[jim@polarismgmt.com]

This is my first response to an issue.

This one really sticks in my craw. With nearly 2 million Young Eagle being registered, I was wondering how many incidents of child molestation occurred that prompted this???

I recently received a nice Young Eagles Flight Leader hat with a chevron patch for 50 missions. I've volunteered my C-172 and my piloting skills over the last two years. It's been a fun thing to do one Saturday per month. Two days after receiving the hat, I got the notice from Young Eagles about the Youth Protection program. I read through the Policy, the Questions and Answers and have even taken the their course. I decided not to go through the background check when I thought...why should I open up my life's history for a volunteer activity? Even though my background check would come back as superior, this activity is not that important to me that can't live without it. It's no longer fun.

Next thing they'll have separate tables at our pancake breakfast for under 18 and over 18. Watch out, don't let that kid sit next to you while you enjoy your pancake. You might get accused of something.

Come May 1, I think the Young Eagles program just lost one more pilot.

Jim Faix
Sarasota FL

[Marty Santic]

This is the beginning of the END of the Young Eagles program. SO SAD! I will guess, we will lose 80-90% of our Young Eagle pilots. Our chapter holds Aviation Days at the airport and has hosted Girl Scouts, Cub/Boy Scouts and the local youth introducing them to aviation. Per the FAQ, this program WILL require the same. The demise of this program also. Is my hope the EAA rethinks the new requirements. Is Jack Pelton aware of the proposal and the outcry from the membership?? The silence of the EAA staff and a statement from Jack Pelton is truly deafening. In five days, this post has garnered over 10,000 views and more then 160 replies. Encourage everyone to POST your thoughts!! The EAA may just listen.

[smutny]

Dear EAA,

Here is your lesson learned:

In the future, bring in the stakeholders, the people that are actually performing the activity and have them give input on best practices to implement new policies.

What you have here is the result of a "good idea" from people who have no idea of how things actually work.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

I have no doubt that ALL management has their eyes on this thread and a staff person dedicated to fielding all the calls. I am sure it was expected and introducing this program during this time of year ( off season) was the plan to give ALL time to reflect.
I personally understand and accept the added responsibilities of working with youth and their protection. I hope that the logistical issues of event staffing can be worked out and the program survive.
Members of my chapter no longer fly YE for other reasons but are available for "ground support".
Jim Heffelfinger
Chapter 52
Sacramento

[mkweiss2]

To the EAA Leadership and Young Eagle Team:



Right now I have in front of me two lapel pins received from the EAA Young Eagles Office this past month. One is for being the Young Eagle Coordinator for Chapter 1445 during 2015 (an honor I have held for the last three years). The other pin is for flying ten or more Young Eagles during the same year. Both are well-earned and mean a lot to me. Unfortunately, these two pins may be the last I ever receive.

I was shocked when I read the letter from the EAA Young Eagles office last week. I had to keep looking at the letterhead to make sure it was really from the EAA. Mandates are usually initiated by a regulatory organization such as the FAA, not a support and volunteer organization such as the EAA. I urge the EAA leadership to poll its members before establishing directives such as background checks. Volunteers do not like being told what to do in the manner presented in your letter. Reasoning beyond "best practices" needs to be fully explained.

Maybe we should ramp up the program now and try to fly the remainder of two million Young Eagles by April 30, 2016. If the EAA leadership doesn't take a hard look at its new policy and make change(s), that just may be the sad day I fly my last Young Eagle. Who will suffer then? It's time to follow the guidance of our common sense.

Mark Weiss
EAA 681690

[Flyboyron]

Yeah, well I'm one who took the training, thought better of the security check requirement, and will not participate unless it's changed.

So strike one from your list of sheep.

Ron

[Flyboyron]

I would like to clarify a few things for everyone without interfering with your dialogue. EAA believes in letting our membership communicate freely, as many of you have here.

...

This policy is not intended to “kill” anything. It is intended to keep kids safe and to keep our programs alive and thriving for another 63 years.

...

EAA volunteers are the highest quality volunteers anywhere, and we have no suspicions that any of you have anything but positive intentions.

It doesn't really matter whether you (EAA policymakers, not you personally, Brett) intended to do the wrong thing. It is still wrong.


If you truly believe that about your volunteers, and are not being compelled by some government agency, this is even more ludicrous.

Sorry, but it's just not the right thing to do. I wish I'd thought more about it, or read some of the excellent discussion here, before I completed the background check form. I was feeling the hair stand up on my neck when I did it, but assumed (I know, I know) it was OK, because it was EAA. Then, with time, I decided it was NOT OK. Unfortunately, I can't undo my submission, even seconds later. (Another issue, IMHO).

[Flyboyron]

Yes, Mark, it would make a difference.

I'd still be insulted by the requirement, but a lot of the objection does indeed have to do with the SSN requirement.

Ron

[Janet Davidson]

Does anyone have the actual letter they could share on here? Not the post on the website or e-Hotline, the letter that was sent out. If you could scan it & attach it, that would be helpful to those of us who haven't received it.

Thanks :thumbsup:

[smutny]

5321

[Mike Switzer]

A background check using a social security number is not a part of ANY youth sports league I have been involved in. The most stringent requirements I have seen are for school related sports leagues that are state sanctioned and while they do involve some online training, and I assume some sort of background check using your name & address, they DO NOT require a social security number. Most youth leagues do not come near the level the state requires.

[Mike Switzer]

Also, the online training required by the state is only for the head coach & assistant coach - I can volunteer at a school team practice without going thru all that. It is common practice to never let an adult be alone with any one student, whether it be accomplished by having one coach with multiple students or 2 adults coaching one player. This would be impractical for a ride in a C150.

[rwanttaja]

Also, the online training required by the state is only for the head coach & assistant coach - I can volunteer at a school team practice without going thru all that. It is common practice to never let an adult be alone with any one student, whether it be accomplished by having one coach with multiple students or 2 adults coaching one player. This would be impractical for a ride in a C150.
I think the issue isn't so much what happens during the Young Eagles event. A YE event could be leveraged to continue contact with a participant ("Hey, you did great flying the airplane! Why don't you come by the airport next Saturday and we can fly again!"

The whole purpose of the new program is so EAA can claim to have followed approved processes to reduce the chance of this happening.

Ron Wanttaja

[combahee]

I think the issue isn't so much what happens during the Young Eagles event. A YE event could be leveraged to continue contact with a participant ("Hey, you did great flying the airplane! Why don't you come by the airport next Saturday and we can fly again!"

The whole purpose of the new program is so EAA can claim to have followed approved processes to reduce the chance of this happening.

Ron Wanttaja

Nothing, absolutely nothing the EAA can do will prevent that.

[rwanttaja]

I think the issue isn't so much what happens during the Young Eagles event. A YE event could be leveraged to continue contact with a participant ("Hey, you did great flying the airplane! Why don't you come by the airport next Saturday and we can fly again!"

The whole purpose of the new program is so EAA can claim to have followed approved processes to reduce the chance of this happening.Nothing, absolutely nothing the EAA can do will prevent that.
Absolutely, positively true. But if the criminal made first contact at an EAA event, EAA will be asked whether they'd screened the people who would be in contact with the kids. Having made *some* effort to eliminate the bad apples will play better in court than pretending it couldn't happen. The EAA *will* get sued, in such a case, and if they can claim they took precautions to prevent it, they might avoid a major judgement against them. Juries are NOT pleased with organizations with slapdash policies, in these cases.

Ron Wanttaja

[fidot]

EAA will be asked whether they'd screened the people who would be in contact with the kids. ...will play better in court than pretending it couldn't happen. ...and if they can claim they took precautions to prevent it, they might avoid a major judgement against them.

..which is exactly the argument that seems to be taken here as a "bureaucracy" speaking rather than "what we're all here for"...


Let's assume this was caused by that recent case (http://www.twincities.com/crime/ci_24979448/ramsey-man-faces-more-charges-sexual-abuse-case).

Alternative is to Not Do It, and argue that (approximately) 0.00005% chance is Not Worth It (1 out of ~2 mil: your odds of being struck by a lightning in a given year are about double, and 2 orders of magnitude larger of being struck over lifetime (numbers "stolen" from NOAA: http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml)). I don't see a Gross Negligence in disregarding such a chance based on such low chances, and knowledge that lots of kids' related activities will dwindle with introduction of such policies.

What is mostly disappointing is that this Policy seems to have been implemented by folks who don't understand their membership at all.

Pilots are already heavily vetted by FAA during medical process.

Pilots are generally one of the "do what makes sense, not what the lawyer says" groups given my limited experience with them.. seems to be confirmed by ~80% of (so far not so long running) poll respondents not liking this policy as is, and ~60% opposing it without serious changes.

Pilots are some of the most dedicated, professional groups of people at large.

I am not trying to diminish other folks and please don't take offense, but it anecdotally feels to me that it takes a bit more resources and time to become a pilot, yet alone willing to take. strange. kids. you've never met before. In Your Airplane. as opposed to typical "sunday volunteers" that work with them. What Im trying to say is that the very fact that one's a pilot is already a huge "background check" presented by life.

CYA could've taken a lot of forms: waiver's one of them. Training could have been other. Even recurring training. "See something: say something". Heck, have you guys SEEN this training? It's BS: you can't fail, they basically show you 1 paragraph of text and then immediately ask the question.. even the TSA-mandated SIDS training I had to take when I was flying out of KOAK ("close the door behind you and don't let anyone w/o the badge unsupervised") was less silly than this.

But not SSN-mandated background checks, "2-deep leadership" (okay, this name is seriously silly? ), and requirement to keep paperwork for years-or-more.

[Antique Tower]

To whom it may concern:

My name is Steve Glenn, EAA # 307275. Been a member since '86, been an Airventure volunteer since '97. Many of you know me as one of the Point managers for VAA down at "Point Fondy," the shack at the south end of Runway 18/36.

I've got four kids. My oldest is 17 and has been volunteering as a ground-pounding flightline worker. My other children are younger and all work with their mother at Aeromart. You folks may remember my youngest - the eight-year-old girl who hands out shopping bags.

So... after we digest this furball that threatens Young Eagles.... what about Airventure? Are all volunteers going to need training and background checks? Just so a few of us can bring our kids up to be Airventure volunteers?

And what about foreign volunteers? They don't have social security numbers.

I can already sense what's coming: no volunteering - none - for any minors. At which point I'm going to have to seriously re-evaluate my family's commitment to Airventure. It has been our 10-day main vacation of the year for 27 years....

[Chris In Marshfield]

I have a 16 year old young man aspiring to be an aeronautical engineer as a member of my chapter. He is actively involved in many of our adventures, including trips to the Kermit Weeks hangar for restoration projects, member build projects, fly-outs, etc. Not to mention regular chapter meetings and the like.

As a Boy Scout Leader, I understand some of the reasoning behind recent decisions. I go through the same stuff in BSA, not only to be a Scout/Cub Master, but also as a merit badge counselor. Even more so as an Aviation Merit Badge counselor. So nothing new here for me.

I also see this as a reason that we have dwindling BSA memberships these days as well. Over-enthusiastic policies put in place as a reaction to a few bad eggs make people move toward activities that are less bothersome and personally intrusive. This may very well have the same effect on the Young Eagles and other youth programs based on some of the reactions and feedback of entire chapters I'm reading above.

That being said, I'm not about to ruin the experience for my dedicated young person, who really enjoys our group and the opportunities and events in which we participate. I will, however, be making sure that build activities will be completely separated from chapter activities, as there are restrictions that keep minors from using power tools. And whether or not we choose to become active in Young Eagles activities will be up to the membership and we'll explore it during the next meeting.

My vice president and I have committed to the Youth Protection Training and background checks because we believe very strongly in our mission to provide experience and guidance to our current teenage member. We'll do everything that we can to ensure that his experiences are not interrupted or hampered by these policy changes, even if we have to act upon them as external activities. What this means for future young members organization-wide remains to be seen.

I hope that for other chapters, this doesn't turn into a, "Yeah, we're glad you're interested. Come back when you're 18." kind of moment. It will surely hamper youth involvement in local chapters.

Respectfully,
Chris

[cub builder]

That being said, I'm not about to ruin the experience for my dedicated young person, who really enjoys our group and the opportunities and events in which we participate. I will, however, be making sure that build activities will be completely separated from chapter activities, as there are restrictions that keep minors from using power tools. And whether or not we choose to become active in Young Eagles activities will be up to the membership and we'll explore it during the next meeting.

Chris, I admire your dedication. Congratulations.

You just hit the nail on the head. EAA is forcing many of the Youth Activities to be separated from EAA Activities. So how does that protect children? Yeah, I see how it protects the EAA legal folks when they can say the EAA didn't have anything to do with that activity; but again, how does this protect children?

There are solutions out there, mostly based in simple training and common sense guidelines, but corporate dictatorship of legalistic programs to volunteers doesn't work, and in my mind, makes me think Corporate EAA is clueless about their membership.

-Cub Builder

[combahee]

I have a 16 year old young man aspiring to be an aeronautical engineer as a member of my chapter. He is actively involved in many of our adventures, including trips to the Kermit Weeks hangar for restoration projects, member build projects, fly-outs, etc. Not to mention regular chapter meetings and the like.

As a Boy Scout Leader, I understand some of the reasoning behind recent decisions. I go through the same stuff in BSA, not only to be a Scout/Cub Master, but also as a merit badge counselor. Even more so as an Aviation Merit Badge counselor. So nothing new here for me.

I also see this as a reason that we have dwindling BSA memberships these days as well. Over-enthusiastic policies put in place as a reaction to a few bad eggs make people move toward activities that are less bothersome and personally intrusive. This may very well have the same effect on the Young Eagles and other youth programs based on some of the reactions and feedback of entire chapters I'm reading above.

That being said, I'm not about to ruin the experience for my dedicated young person, who really enjoys our group and the opportunities and events in which we participate. I will, however, be making sure that build activities will be completely separated from chapter activities, as there are restrictions that keep minors from using power tools. And whether or not we choose to become active in Young Eagles activities will be up to the membership and we'll explore it during the next meeting.

My vice president and I have committed to the Youth Protection Training and background checks because we believe very strongly in our mission to provide experience and guidance to our current teenage member. We'll do everything that we can to ensure that his experiences are not interrupted or hampered by these policy changes, even if we have to act upon them as external activities. What this means for future young members organization-wide remains to be seen.

I hope that for other chapters, this doesn't turn into a, "Yeah, we're glad you're interested. Come back when you're 18." kind of moment. It will surely hamper youth involvement in local chapters.

Respectfully,
Chris

Chris, great for you mentoring this youngster. You do realize under the new guidelines he can not attend a chapter meeting unless at least two vetted members are present at all times? He can not attend any function, fly out, visit to a museum, if it entails a flight or drive in a personal vehicle or aircraft? He can not participate in a workshop without the two vetted supervisors? You can't fly the kid unless it is a Young Eagle flight and depending on the interpretation, he has to be supervised by another adult, even getting in and out of the aircraft?
These regulations will virtually stop all youth based activities in EAA.

[Chris In Marshfield]

Chris, great for you mentoring this youngster. You do realize under the new guidelines he can not attend a chapter meeting unless at least two vetted members are present at all times? He can not attend any function, fly out, visit to a museum, if it entails a flight or drive in a personal vehicle or aircraft? He can not participate in a workshop without the two vetted supervisors? You can't fly the kid unless it is a Young Eagle flight and depending on the interpretation, he has to be supervised by another adult, even getting in and out of the aircraft?
These regulations will virtually stop all youth based activities in EAA.

Yes sir. It's certainly a sore spot. Not only does there have to be an appropriate number of members in place, he also has to be signed in and out, and we have to manage a separate record of this activity for three years. OUTSTANDING. My chapter-mates and I are dedicated to making sure that he gets the experience he needs to be the person he wants to be. If we have to do these things outside of chapter airspace, we're certainly ready and willing to do so!

~Chris

[combahee]

Good for you Chris!
All the YE pilots in our chapter will withdraw from the program, and it looks like the chapter will also withdraw from the EAA. We simply can't do business this way. The members are already drawing up plans for non EAA youth flights.

[FlyingRon]

Yes sir. It's certainly a sore spot. Not only does there have to be an appropriate number of members in place, he also has to be signed in and out, and we have to manage a separate record of this activity for three years. OUTSTANDING. My chapter-mates and I are dedicated to making sure that he gets the experience he needs to be the person he wants to be. If we have to do these things outside of chapter airspace, we're certainly ready and willing to do so!

~Chris

Hopefully the EAA will step up and let you mail all your records to them for safekeeping. Another organization I am involved with does this. I told them I didn't really want to be liaison anymore and had no replacement and they said just send my files to them.

[CraigCantwell]

Combahee: I hope you guys will hold off closing down the chapter for a little while at least. Nothing wrong with getting things laid out to leave, but as a very wise friend told me ( in a much cleaned up wording ) "You can't help management hang themselves from outside the fence". Cutting ties before this is resolved, hopefully, in a positive manner, could be very hurtful all around.

The fact that we are now a week into dealing with this smoking pile, and there has been nothing but absolute silence from national and the board of directors, other than the "don't shoot the messengers" note from Bret, speaks volumes on their apparent attitude towards the membership. With this festering more and more each day, and the anger of the membership increasing exponentially, they need to reach out to the membership in a hurry and work on fixing this. If they don't, the annual meeting might be very dark for the board and management. Whether they realize it or not, this subject is being discussed on multiple boards and is rapidly becoming very public. I'm actually surprised that Zoom has hasn't made it a front page splash on his website already, as much as he despises the EAA.

[ChrisNC]

It is a laudable goal to have background security checks to protect kids, but why would anyone submit to a background check with risks like this? Unless EAA can figure out a better way to do this (in other words, without pilots giving their SSN to anyone outside the government), this is quite likely to basically "kill" the YE program. Perhaps that is what someone really wanted to do and this is a good way to do it? I have really enjoyed flying YE kids in the past, but having been the victim of identity theft, I have no desire whatsoever - for any reason - to go through that mess again...There has to be a better way.

[gearisgreen]

According to EAA HQ the following vendor was contracted to complete the backgrounds: AmericanChecked, Inc.


AmericanChecked is a national background screening company that services the Native American gaming and non-profit markets. The three founders of this woman-owned company share a collective 40 years of experience in the background screening industry.
Press Release
Tulsa, OK – July 13, 2015 – Effective Immediately

On July 1, 2015, AmericanChecked Inc. was officially certified for membership in the Chickasaw Nation Preferred Vendor Program.

AmericanChecked Inc. is a nationally accredited, Native/Woman-owned background screening solutions provider based in Tulsa, OK specializing in meeting the diverse screening needs of Indian Country.

The Chickasaw Nation Preferred Vendor Program was established in November, 2008. It has been and is currently the policy of the Nation to continue increasing business opportunities for qualified Chickasaw and other Native American owned businesses as well as other federally recognized minorities.

This recognized program reflects the Chickasaw Nation’s mission statement: “To enhance the overall quality of life of the Chickasaw people.”

Julie Hakman, President of AmericanChecked
http://www.tribaltrac.com/americanchecked-inc-awarded-native-ownedpreferred-vendor-status/
http://www.bbb.org/tulsa/business-reviews/screening-background-and-employment/americanchecked-in-tulsa-ok-38001574

[CraigCantwell]

According to EAA HQ the following vendor was contracted to complete the backgrounds: AmericanChecked, Inc.



Please note that back on post #43, it has been shown that the SSLC for the website that we are directed to for inputting our information does not belong to AmericanChecked, but BackChecked, LLC in Phoenix, AZ. Nowhere in any of the available information shows any connection between the companies.

[TomBush]

My name is Tom Bush. I'm a retired Navy commander (F-14 and F/A-18 background), and currently fly the A320 for UAL. I live with my family at the Dry Creek Airport in Cypress, TX (TS07), and serve as President and Airport Manager of this 35+ homesite private facility. Along with my family and friends, I take great enjoyment from all things aviation.

Of the many flying activities my community is involved with, the largest is its annual 'Open House.' Occurring each November, this event is our way of sharing the joy of flight while spreading goodwill among neighbors and local community members. People flock to our event from miles around, and approximately 25 pilots devote themselves to providing safe and quality flight experiences to the hundreds of kids in attendance. I don't know the exact number of Young Eagle rides we have given over the years, but would guess it to be on the order of 1,000 or so based on the fact that we typically do around 120 each year. This will not happen anymore, because every pilot I have spoken to in our community feels the same way as I and hundreds of respondents to this forum do regarding EAA's so-called 'Youth Protection Program:'

1. That it is inane (It's a solution in search of a problem! Show me the data that indicates this is necessary! Out of a few million YE flights, how many kids have been groped? .000001% or less?)

2. That it is insulting (Not quite sure how, but me and the pilots that makeup my community have somehow, just somehow, managed to not molest any kids in our lifetimes, and yet all of a sudden we need 'training.' Ludicrous. . . Let me get this straight: we use our time, our airplanes, our money, our facility, our litigation risk, and EAA wants us to go through human decency training while surrendering our most sensitive information for a background check? I don't think so. . . We'll still fly the kids just like we always have. The only difference being that it will be administratively a lot easier to conduct the event without all the YE paperwork, and the kids won't walk away with the fancy certificate. Modern color printers are wonderful, however, so chances are we'll just print up some locally generated versions of our own first flight certificate).

3. That it is unnecessary (Again; show us the data that makes this program necessary. If the reasoning was / is: "if the program prevents only one child from being exposed to a pervert or one lawsuit from being filed then it is worth it." Actually, that's not correct. Everything in life is a cost/benefit analysis, and in this case these rules are going to 'cost' the EAA the viability of the YE program itself when pilots refuse to participate en masse. Much more has been said regarding the efficacy of the program in actually accomplishing anything, so I won't repeat it here).

4. That it is overreaching (Submitting my SSN to a non-profit organization like EAA, who then submits it to a faceless third-party for the background check? As a retired military officer and someone exposed to the OPM data hack, I don't think so. . . Others feel the same).

5. That it is risky (Risky to EAA members for the identity theft potential, and risky to EAA itself for loss of participation in the YE program. I'd also submit that it is risky to overall EAA membership statistics, as many like me will see no reason to renew their membership if we don't plan on conducting any YE flights).

I respectfully urge the great organization that is EAA to rescind this disastrous policy - for its own good as well as that of its membership.

[Mark van Wyk]

This is going to sound a little "out there," but as a person who has undergone many "sensitivity" training sessions and background checks at various corporations, government contractors, and government entities such as serving on a county board-- be it it be ethics, race relations, sexual harassment, etc. -- I've found that usually the way it works is you just put up with it and take the class and sign the form, and then life goes on as normal. You rarely notice any difference, except maybe you are a bit more aware of certain sensitive issues. I've never been "hurt" by any of these types of training.
I'm certain even people who have served in the Military know what I am talking about.
DON'T MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL, FOLKS. I doubt very seriously that there will be "rule compliance Nazis" at every YE event. My advice: take the training, take the background check, and keep participating in YE.

[cub builder]

This is going to sound a little "out there," but as a person who has undergone many "sensitivity" training sessions and background checks at various corporations, government contractors, and government entities such as serving on a county board-- be it race relations, sexual harassment, etc. -- I've found that usually the way it works is you just put up with it and take the class and sign the form, and then life goes on as normal. You rarely notice any difference, except maybe you are a bit more aware of certain sensitive issues. I've never been "hurt" by any of these types of training.
I'm certain even people who have served in the Military know what I am talking about.
DON'T MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL, FOLKS. I doubt very seriously that there will be "rule compliance Nazis" at every YE event. My advice: take the training, take the background check, and keep participating in YE.

You keep advising that, but your own poll in the sister thread currently shows that over 80% will not submit to this. So I'm thinking you are in a small minority on this issue. I know you keep saying this is not a problem, but some 80% of your friends on here disagree.

Yes, at work we are required to tolerate this kind of nonsense as a requirement of employment. I am employed because I have to do that to feed my family. Volunteers have no such requirement. I like flying kids, but I don't have to fly kids in order to feed my family and I don't have to be an EAA blessed volunteer to fly kids. The YE program was a tool, but that tool is now broken.

If the numbers in your poll have any reflection on reality, then the EAA corporate types are going to have to either go back and start over again, or write off the YE program as a casualty to their own stupidity. You can argue all you want, but the fact is volunteers don't have to volunteer. When it reaches their pain threshold, volunteers can simply walk away. According to your own poll, some 80% are saying this has reached their pain threshold.

-Cub Builder

[CraigCantwell]

You just don't get it Mark. This smoking pile isn't a molehill, it's an entire mountain range to use your line. Are you willing to sacrifice your chapter to prove that nothing will happen if you violate one of the rules? I'm not willing to even think about it for mine. BTW, if I don't follow the "rules and policies" at work, the least that will happen to me is time off without pay for some period, and the most is that people die and there is lots of collateral damage. And yes, I have security clearances, and I am required to abide by FAA, NTSB, DOT, DOD, DHS, DOE, NRC and OSHA rules on the federal side, as well as the Texas DSHS RCP on my job.

I spend up to 80 hours a year taking corporate and government mandated training and testing on ethics, sexual harassment, race relations, workplace violence and several other topics besides more than 100 hours training time directly related to my job, so I am well aware of how it is presented and how it affects the workplace. I put up with it because I am well paid for what I do. I am also hyper aware that there are people out there that get their jollies from seeing people get in trouble for not following the rules to the letter. I've seen it happen in the company that I work for.

Do I think the EAA needs a policy? Yes it does, but, and here is the caveat, it needs to be one that will work and be an asset rather than the overbearing, insulting, labor intensive monstrosity that they have presented to us as a fait accompli. The sooner they realize this and listen and come up with a workable plan, the better it will be for the organization and maybe some of the damage can be repaired before it's too late.

[Rod Schneider]

This is going to sound a little "out there," but as a person who has undergone many "sensitivity" training sessions and background checks at various corporations, government contractors, and government entities such as serving on a county board-- be it it be ethics, race relations, sexual harassment, etc. -- I've found that usually the way it works is you just put up with it and take the class and sign the form, and then life goes on as normal. You rarely notice any difference, except maybe you are a bit more aware of certain sensitive issues. I've never been "hurt" by any of these types of training.
I'm certain even people who have served in the Military know what I am talking about.
DON'T MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL, FOLKS. I doubt very seriously that there will be "rule compliance Nazis" at every YE event. My advice: take the training, take the background check, and keep participating in YE.

Since you seem to think that this is a "Mole Hill" and everyone else is over reacting, then maybe you'd feel comfortable sharing your Social Security number, birth date, and home address on this forum for all to see?
Don't want too? I certainly will understand if you don't, but realize that anytime you submit that information on line, you are running the same kind of risk. I, for one, will not take that risk........

[ChrisNC]

I have read all of the comments on the EAA Forum on this topic to date. Wow – this is a bit of afire-storm! Thus far, it seems that the largest objection is to having to give out a SSN rather than the requirement to have background checks for YE volunteers, although there are a few folks who don’t like that either (they are dreaming - this is not the world of 50 years ago). I certainly understand the reluctance to give out an SSN if it is not really necessary, and well-protected in the process (there have been multiple security breaches over the last several years, so the fear is well-founded). Most folks appear to see the rationale in vetting volunteers who will work with kids (I agree with that as well). Note the post that related specific information regarding a registered sex offender pilot that had flown a bunch of YE kids (no evidence related of any wrongdoing on his part during those flights) without anyone in the Chapter even being aware that he was a RSO until he left the chapter when he moved. Scary, I think. That and a couple of other similar incidents was apparently why the EAA BoD took this step. Not sure how well they thought it through, but that was the reason given by staff in one of the posts on the forum.

Quite a few comments question the qualifications of the vendor who is contracted to do the background checks, saying that they are not really doing the checks, as stated by EAA, but that they had subcontracted the checks to an entity of questionable qualification. That should be of concern, and I hope that EAA Board will address that concern and rethink whether including the SSN in the process is really necessary. If EAA still deems the SSN to be necessary, my guess is that they will have a much smaller pool of volunteers for this worthwhile program. Note that there is also a concern by some of the posters on the Forum that the background check policy extends beyond YE, even to the extent of having youth participate in any EAA programs, including Chapter meetings. I am not sure about that, but EAA national needs to address all of these concerns sooner rather than later. That would not seem particularly reasonable, given that there are a lot of adults around at meetings. I get their desire to protect the kids with whom we are entrusted, and agree with the rationale, but that protection process really needs to be more carefully thought out.

It seems to me that one option would be to have a winter stand-down of the YE program, work through these issues, address the concerns and be ready to go in the Spring. Knee-jerk reactions to a perceived (or real) problem usually draw knee-jerk responses.

Chris M

[combahee]

The thing many of you are ignoring or just not realizing is the onerous requirements on all the volunteers, not just the pilots. ANY volunteer that volunteers 4 or more times per year, or 4 hours or more has to undergo the checks and training. This would include the school teachers that bring the high school ROTC kids. The military pilots that volunteer their Saturdays to answer questions while the other kids are being flown. The wives doing paperwork, the volunteers walking the kids to the planes and the photographer recording each flight to give the youth an extra souvenir.
Add to this all the extra paperwork and keeping it secure.
What do we do with the chapter member that is under 18? Does he have to leave if there aren't 2 vetted members present at all times?
Before anyone defends any of the policy read the stipulations.
Mark van Wyk; let me quote you, "DON'T MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL, FOLKS. I doubt very seriously that there will be "rule compliance Nazis" at every YE event." Are you even suggesting we only pay lip service and ignore the EAA rules, to lie to the EAA and not be in compliance? What else are you lying or cheating on?
Are the rules so distasteful that even you are willing to bend the rules?

[ssmdive]

This is going to sound a little "out there," but as a person who has undergone many "sensitivity" training sessions and background checks at various corporations, government contractors, and government entities such as serving on a county board-- be it it be ethics, race relations, sexual harassment, etc. -- I've found that usually the way it works is you just put up with it and take the class and sign the form, and then life goes on as normal. You rarely notice any difference, except maybe you are a bit more aware of certain sensitive issues. So just walk along, don't care about how a group that is supposed to represent you is dictating what you WILL do to volunteer your time and money? Just shut up and do it and then ignore it?
I've never been "hurt" by any of these types of training. I ask for maybe the THIRD time.... Ever have your identity stolen? Cause if not, then you have no idea what you are talking about when you tell others to not worry about it. Are YOU going to personally cover my financial costs if the EAA loses my identity? Are YOU personally going to call all the creditors and explain what is going on? And making me do dumb things for dumb reasons is hurting me. It is wasting my time. Maybe you have nothing better to do, but I'd rather not waste my time on stupid requirements that will do nothing.
I'm certain even people who have served in the Military know what I am talking about. We know all about useless training. But even people who have not been in the military know the difference between taking stupid required training because they have to follow the lawful orders of a superior, or people with a job understand taking stupid training because you are getting paid is different than being ordered to take stupid training from a group that is supposed to represent you, not order you around.
DON'T MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL, FOLKS. I doubt very seriously that there will be "rule compliance Nazis" at every YE event. My advice: take the training, take the background check, and keep participating in YE. Again, ever had your ID stolen?

[Mark van Wyk]

Again, ever had your ID stolen? ....snip.... Then MAYBE you will grasp why this is a big deal.
True, unlike you I have the guts to use my real name. Bravo. You did a Google search. I'm going to report you the forum moderator and see if I can have your disgusting post removed.

[ssmdive]

True, unlike you I have the guts to use my real name. Bravo. You did a Google search. I'm going to report you the forum moderator and see if I can have your disgusting post removed. Oh, don't like some minor stuff out there? If all I did was a quick "google" then why so upset? Well, that's why we don't want our data out there big guy. Maybe you just learned a bit of a lesson - I doubt it, but maybe.

[Janet Davidson]

Before this deteriorates in to a serious spat, can we just rein back a little bit, and instead of squabbling with Mark (I do agree with everyone else's comments regarding his posts, but that's neither here nor there), focus on the issue at hand - the background checks, the SSN requirement, and EAA staff who came up with this idea.

For me, in all of that letter, what really made me laugh was the "free of charge" sentence. Seriously? You, EAA staff, had considered charging volunteers for the privilege of this for long enough that you felt the need to point out you now were not going to charge the volunteers? Can you spell arrogant?

Isn't it sad that people who would normally sit around happily discussing your shared passion are at each other's throats because of this ill-thought out, badly conceived program created by the folks who work for you.

[smutny]

I know many of us are ticked off about how this was sprung on us, and about many of the policies. My understanding is that it is being discussed at every level in Oshkosh now. So, as hard as it is in this information age of instant gratification, let's see what EAA comes back with (hopefully) soon.

[Mark van Wyk]

B... instead of picking on Mark (I do agree with everyone else's comments regarding his posts, but that's neither here nor there)...
Aw, darn, Janet. Here I was all happy because you were sticking up for me, and then you had to put in that little jab in the parentheses. I see you also are not a coward and use your real name. Hopefully the craven "ssmdive" -- proud owner of1974 7ECA Citabria and 1986 Pitts S1S -- won't do a Google search on you and post your information. I assume ssmdive hides the tail numbers on his airplanes, also. An FAA database search will reveal a lot about him, too.

[jgnunn]

...I assume ssmdive hides the tail numbers on his airplanes, also. An FAA database search will reveal a lot about him, too.

ssmdive is just making a valid point; anyone can dig a little around google on anybody, you get basic info, but it surprises most people what is in public records for all to see, but add an SSN to the bundle and your life can be turned upside down. And, having a username not relative to your real name is considered normal; nothing to do with cowardice whatsoever.

[rwanttaja]

I know many of us are ticked off about how this was sprung on us, and about many of the policies. My understanding is that it is being discussed at every level in Oshkosh now.
Indeed. A better approach would have been to place the problem in front of the members (most of whom are adults...maybe a bit lower in this thread :-) and ask US what could be done to fix the problem. Tell folks that Young Eagles would be suspended until a solution was found. That way, one would mobilize the membership to help, rather than alienate a batch of them right out of the box. We're volunteers, not franchisees. If we don't like the way the game is being played, we'll take our ball and go home.

Personally, as a ~3-time prior Chapter President, I don't think I want the job again. Not if I'm going to be responsible for implementing this rather draconian solution.

The only thing I can think of is that headquarters panicked, somehow. They had the impression that something had to be done, FAST, so they pushed through a solution without thinking about how the membership would react.

Ron Wanttaja

[Byron J. Covey]

I know many of us are ticked off about how this was sprung on us, and about many of the policies. My understanding is that it is being discussed at every level in Oshkosh now. So, as hard as it is in this information age of instant gratification, let's see what EAA comes back with (hopefully) soon.

I hope that the elected officials of our organization do fix it, and I hope that they have learned a valuable lesson about making decisions for organizations such as ours without first having gotten input from the membership.


BJC

[Gunslinger37]

From the EAA "Youth Protection Program" FAQ page.

How is my data protected once it's submitted?
"Your data is never shared with any outside vendor at any time." Then it goes on to explain that your data will be shared with AmericanChecked, who is an outside vendor.

The EAA says;
All data transmission, including XML traffic, is encrypted using SSL certificates issued and monitored with 24/7 security. Servers are protected with multi-level firewall technology and intrusion detection software. Vulnerability scans are conducted on a regular basis by a PCI Approved Scanning Vendor, housed in a SAS 70 Type II audited data center with high-definition cameras.

The use of SSL does insure the integrity of the data being sent and received. This allows data to be encrypted on one end, and only un-encrypted by another computer with the correct certificate (code) It is used with banking information, credit cards, etc. When the data breaches have occurred, its usually from something else, not the failure of SSL certificates. The above statement is just trying to brag how awesome they are, it has little to do with protecting your Social Security Number or other private data that you submit.

[Jeff Point]

I hope that the elected officials of our organization do fix it, and I hope that they have learned a valuable lesson about making decisions for organizations such as ours without first having gotten input from the membership.

Not to be too argumentative here, but we do not have elected representatives in this organization. That is a big source of many of our problems.

[ssmdive]

Mark has now been making threats via PM. Amazing how he is so upset after he has been insulting people for so long on this thread about not wanting their personal data out there. In fact, I think I went out of my way to not include anything that would mean anything to anyone other than him..... I consider the point made and closed - Provided he stops with the threats via PM.

[Jeff Point]

Come on guys, calm down here. Janet is right- let's keep this focused on the issue at hand.

[Antique Tower]

The only thing I can think of is that headquarters panicked, somehow.

WWPD

(What Would Paul Do......)

[Flyboyron]

... I've found that usually the way it works is you just put up with it and take the class and sign the form, and then life goes on as normal.

Yep. Let's all just be good little sheep, and follow the flock. Nothing bad could POSSIBLY happen... Right.

Mark, that's exactly why this crap keeps happening. Because no one stands up and say, "ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP!!!"

Obviously, and unsurprisingly after reading your posts in this thread, in your case, you were more concerned with keeping your job than with doing the right thing, i.e. saying NO. Well, we don't have to worry about keeping this job. It's a volunteer position. They hold nothing over us.

If we stand up and say, "Not only NO, but HELL NO", maybe next time, some disconnected, oblivious board is considering something so ill-conceived as this might just look at this example and say, "Wait a minute, remember what happened at EAA when they went down this road? They blew up their best program ever."

Maybe not. Maybe there are enough who lack the ... uh... "intestinal fortitude" (cleaned that one up...) to help them reinforce their ridiculous policymaking failures that it will be perpetuated.

But we can always hope, can't we? Well, some of us are saying we need to do more than just hope.

[Flyboyron]

I was thinking exactly the same thing just now.

I think Paul would have said, "Are those two million kids better off with the program, or without it?" Risks and all, I think we know nothing can be 100% safe. If we really wanted the kids to have no risk, we wouldn't be putting them in airplanes in the first place, because that required them to ride in those horribly unsafe cars to get there.

(Which, by the way, would seem to violate the "no person vehicles" rule, anyway...)

[Flyboyron]

You're absolutely right. All those things are serious failures of the new policy.

The SSN problem overwhelmed them, but even without that, the policy is crazy, unenforceable, and unsustainable, for all the reasons you have cited.

[Flyboyron]

All very good points, Ron

Ron

[ssmdive]

Maybe what should happen is "creative destruction". The EAA seems to have long ago lost their charter and now seems to only be about selling avionics and holding an airshow every year. The heavy handed expectation that the volunteers work for the EAA and the impossible paperwork requirements they want to impose on what they see as "employees" as opposed to members might very well signal the end of usefulness of the EAA.

If the YE program dies, it seems that many people are willing to pick up the mission and continue. May I suggest the name "Young Phoenix"? This organization could be about trying to get kids interested in aviation and would treat the people willing to spend their time and money as valued assets and not employees to order about.

Dinosaurs had their extinction event. No one uses horses for real transportation. Maybe the EAA has run its course?

[Mark van Wyk]

Maybe what should happen is "creative destruction"... snip ...Dinosaurs had their extinction event. No one uses horses for real transportation. Maybe the EAA has run its course?
That's exactly what I am fighting. Those who want to trash YE over this. I think the concept of training and background checks is OK, but possibly the implementation could use some tweaking.

[Glory Aulik]

Hello All,

As the moderator of the EAA Forums I must step in when appropriate and well, moderate. Up until a few recent posts, everyone has been very respectful and I must thank you for that! But as a refresher I would still like remind everyone of several rules: posting rude, disrespectful, or being invasive of a person’s privacy is not allowed, personal attacks will not be tolerated, and last but not least, please continue to be respectful. These rules are set in place to encourage engaging conversations for everyone involved.

For reference:

4. Do not post or link anything knowingly false and/or defamatory, libelous, inaccurate, rude, racist, disrespectful, abusive, harassing, threatening, obscene, profane, racially or ethnically offensive, invasive of a person's privacy, or that otherwise violates pertinent laws

5. Don't antagonize, harass or attack others. Personal attacks are not tolerated. Challenge points of view and opinions, but do so thoughtfully and respectfully... without insults. People who continually or repeatedly provoke or encourage arguments and hostile feelings will be banned from the forums.

6. Respect is the name of the game. Please refrain from inflammatory and defamatory comments as well as flaming, taunting, and general disrespect. Allow people to have their opinion. Don't just tell them they're wrong. Do not make uninvited remarks about typos, duplicate posts, posting styles, etc.

7. Criticism must be respectful, constructive and positive. Opinions must be clearly stated as opinions and worded in a way so readers are unlikely to understand the post as presenting facts. Facts must be accurate and relevant to the topic or thread. Full disclosure of relationships to organizations / products / services mentioned or their competitors and affiliated organizations is required.

Now that the nitty gritty is out of the way, I would like to say that we, as an organization, are listening to your thoughts and concerns regarding the Youth Protection Policy. Every individual who has participated on this thread is passionate about the EAA, Young Eagles, Chapters, etc., and the well-being of such programs. I am continually intrigued to read the thought provoking posts that appear regarding this topic. It’s inspiring to see how strongly each of you feel about passing along that same passion for aviation to kids. Like I said, we are listening to what you’re saying and can expect to receive an update on the situation very soon.

Thank you!

[ssmdive]

That's exactly what I am fighting. Those who want to trash YE over this. I think the concept of training and background checks is OK, but possibly the implementation could use some tweaking.

The 'market' will decide. It is a simple case of agrivation vs remuneration. If you make people jump through zero hoops to take kids flying, you will get 'X' number of people willing to participate. You make people jump through some hoops and some will stop. Make people jump through a great deal of hoops and a great deal will drop out or refuse to participate. Heck you yourself said that you don't want to be the only one wearing out your plane by himself, so you understand the concept even if you don't know it.

So far the market has pretty clearly stated that the EAA has WAY overstepped reasonable requirements for volunteers.

You keep saying what is 'OK'... Well it is pretty clear that it is only Ok to you. And the simple fact is that before you impose regulations on people, you need to make sure there is an actual need, not just fear mongering. So far we have seen one case of a guy that was a pedophile, but it seems none of his acts involved EAA and one case of an idiot taking kids to lunch without permission. Based on these two cases.... The solution is insane.

So an 'OK' solution would be to make a YE rule to not land at any other airport other than the origin. Another would be to make all flights 30mins or less. Simple, and actually fix the issue. What the EAA is proposing is curing the disease by killing the host.

[vaflier]

Glory, thank you for your post !. You are correct that the members are very passionate about aviation and for me especially the Young Eagles Progam. I have gained tremendous enjoyment and will always treasure the look on the kids faces when you left them fly the plane. One young man in particular really stands out as he was somewhat mentally challenged and when he timidly took the wheel and flew the plane for a while, his joy was boundless. On our way back he sadly asked if we really had to go back it was so beautiful up there, I said heck no lets fly a while longer !!. His mother was crying in the back seat when we landed and told me she had never seen her son so happy. I will treasure those and other moments forever. After moments such as that how could I not be passionate about flying and Young Eagles. I truly want to see the problems resolved and the program grow. Please ask the management to help us and fix what is wrong and lets continue to make it better.

[Mike M]

The background check is free of charge because EAA is paying for it? Wait a minute. We ARE the EAA!


Before this deteriorates in to a serious spat, can we just rein back a little bit, and instead of squabbling with Mark (I do agree with everyone else's comments regarding his posts, but that's neither here nor there), focus on the issue at hand - the background checks, the SSN requirement, and EAA staff who came up with this idea.

For me, in all of that letter, what really made me laugh was the "free of charge" sentence. Seriously? You, EAA staff, had considered charging volunteers for the privilege of this for long enough that you felt the need to point out you now were not going to charge the volunteers? Can you spell arrogant?

Isn't it sad that people who would normally sit around happily discussing your shared passion are at each other's throats because of this ill-thought out, badly conceived program created by the folks who work for you.

[Mike M]

I originally used my real id info on this forum and one of the moderators advised me not to.


...having a username not relative to your real name is considered normal; nothing to do with cowardice whatsoever.

[rwanttaja]

I originally used my real id info on this forum and one of the moderators advised me not to.
I've used my real ID on every post since the mid-80s. Only got sued once. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[TedK]

Not to be too argumentative here, but we do not have elected representatives in this organization. That is a big source of many of our problems.

Jeff- I have listened to impassioned and reasoned pleas from members at the Annual Meeting for direct electronic voting vice proxies, yet it falls on deaf ears.

Why? Simple human nature, if you held control of the process via proxies why would you cede that power until forced to?

The attendance at the Annual Meeting is less than a joke, it is pathetic that with 500,000 people at Oshkosh we only get several hundred (at best) at the annual meeting. Even those in power have made it easier for us by moving the Meeting to the middle of the week when there is the highest probability of member participation.

I think we owe it to ourselves, our comrades and the Organization to attend and participate in the Annual Meeting, and to demand electronic direct voting.

But if you cede all decisions to a dictator, no matter how benevolent (and ours are remarkably benevolent and well intentioned) don't be surprised if the outcome doesn't match what the rank and file wants.

Ted (the Red)

PS: English doesn't seem to have a softer word than dictator. Ours are the warm and fuzzy kind. (Grin)

PPS: I hope Glory doesn't ban me.

[FlyingRon]

From the EAA "Youth Protection Program" FAQ page.

How is my data protected once it's submitted?
"Your data is never shared with any outside vendor at any time." Then it goes on to explain that your data will be shared with AmericanChecked, who is an outside vendor.

It's also apparantly a further blatant lie because the data doesn't go to AmericanChecked but 8F7.COM which appears (but is not able to be verified) to be beenchecked.com



The EAA says;
All data transmission, including XML traffic, is encrypted using SSL certificates issued and monitored with 24/7 security. Servers are protected with multi-level firewall technology and intrusion detection software. Vulnerability scans are conducted on a regular basis by a PCI Approved Scanning Vendor, housed in a SAS 70 Type II audited data center with high-definition cameras.

The use of SSL does insure the integrity of the data being sent and received. This allows data to be encrypted on one end, and only un-encrypted by another computer with the correct certificate (code) It is used with banking information, credit cards, etc. When the data breaches have occurred, its usually from something else, not the failure of SSL certificates. The above statement is just trying to brag how awesome they are, it has little to do with protecting your Social Security Number or other private data that you submit.

SSL gives you a false sense of security if you can't verify who the endpoint is.

[FlyingRon]

While I don't use my full name here, people know who I am. Certainly the EAA does because some of the paid EAA staff contacted me directly to ream me out over postings made here before.

[Glory Aulik]

PPS: I hope Glory doesn't ban me.

You're doing okay so far! ;)

[martymayes]

I've used my real ID on every post since the mid-80s. Only got sued once. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

I would never use my real name on the internet. That's just crazy!!!

lol

[combahee]

Maybe if I tell you how a typical YE day goes some of you will understand. At least how our chapter does it on a monthly basis.
Usually 2 to 4 kids show after contacting the YE coordinator or the airport manager, who also flies YE. We have them show up at 9am.
The bulk of the youngsters another 10 to 20 come from aviation clubs, ROTC, high schools etc. We serve a 6 county area. We work closely with a local chapter of the Tuskegee Airman, who have their own programs and scholarships and help bring in the kids. We also fly a large number of "at risk" kids.
We hold the pilot briefing at 8:30. Aircraft are already lined up on the ramp. We go over the exact route, assign aircraft numbers, weather briefing, which runway etc. We also include a brief safety and paperwork briefing.
All the pilots then go out to the designated hanger. Here we introduce ourselves. Depending on the situation we may have some pilots and crew from the local AFB. They address the kids and during the flying mingle with the other kids answering questions. We usually also have school teachers, administrators, parents and Tuskegee members present. We go through a complete briefing on what to expect, safety, and procedures. At this point one of the volunteer coordinators will assign kids to pilots.
We check their waiver was signed and then hand it to another volunteer who double checks it and holds it until the ride is over. Each child is escorted to the plane by the pilot who then gives a preflight with the child. Then in the aircraft and away we go.
At no time does a youth leave the hanger area with the exception of going to the restroom, where they are escorted due to walking across the ramp. Restrooms are in the main terminal public area.
After all the flights we gather all the kids and volunteers and do a group picture. One or more of the volunteers also does photos as the plane parks of the youth and pilots.
These are made available to the school, parent etc. Each child is given a printed certificate and their log book filled out.
Once a year we do a rally with the local university's aviation day camp, as many as 40 students.
So to try and coordinate all the volunteers, parents and AF pilots to do background checks would be impossible. Our core group is usually the same, but the volunteers are month by month.
We are very safety conscious and protective of the kids, most of these kids would never get a chance to fly in a small aircraft, or any aircraft for that matter.
I can't stress how important and life changing this can be for the child, this is a great program. Don't let good intentions get in the way of what is really important.

[gearisgreen]

Concerns over EAA background provider requiring your SSN are valid. Scammers can do a lot with your SSN, even the last four digits.


Updated: Tue 1:02 PM, Jan 26, 2016
By: Betty Sexton - Email


We were among the first in the country to warn you about the fraudulent IRS scam phone calls. Now there
To join the conversation on this story and others, "like" our KKTV 11 News Facebook page!

The call is designed to get your attention.

Phone recording: "We are handling a claim in our office. Please note your claim number: 3388714."

They're not the crooks claiming you owe the IRS, but fraudsters who say they're with IPS, trying to collect a debt.

Phone recording: "Please press zero to speak to a representative or call us at 844-279-7423."

Dirk Lockhart says he's been getting the annoying calls for the past six months, sometimes five to six a day. He was told the group's name is IPS, or International Processing Solutions.

Dirk says, “I don't know where they are getting all this information, whether they are typing in your credit report or whatever, but they're getting a lot more information that they should be."

Dirk says the crooks know just enough to be scary, like the last four digits of your Social Security number, your full name, address and other details.

http://www.kktv.com/news/consumerreports/headlines/Beware-of-Calls-from-IPS--366135821.html

[Mark van Wyk]

Success!

[rwanttaja]

Success!
Everybody send their Young Eagle candidates to Mark! :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

Success!

Success,eh? I'd say a voluntary abdication of your civil liberties and a repudiation of your privacy rights. Plus in the near future the aggravation and fear of having your personal information compromised because s**t happens.

[TomBush]

Success,eh? I'd say a voluntary abdication of your civil liberties and a repudiation of your privacy rights. Plus in the near future the aggravation and fear of having your personal information compromised because s**t happens.

Could not have said that better myself! :thumbsup:

[Marty Santic]

.......we are listening to what you’re saying and can expect to receive an update on the situation very soon. Glory.... Thank you for replying on the behalf of HQ. WHEN can we expect to receive an update on how this issue will be resolved?

[Glory Aulik]

Glory.... Thank you for replying on the behalf of HQ. WHEN can we expect to receive an update on how this issue will be resolved?

I don't have a specific date, but I would say sometime this week, if not early next!

[Byron J. Covey]

In an earlier post I made reference to your elected representatives. Jeff responded:


Not to be too argumentative here, but we do not have elected representatives in this organization. That is a big source of many of our problems.

I understand the sentiment, but it is possible for Association members to set the direction of the Association through the election of Directors. Here is how it works: https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/about-eaa/who-we-are/eaa-member-proxy-voting

The enemy of change is membership apathy; it is too easy to simply sign the proxy statement.

In case you wanted to know who your current representatives are: https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/about-eaa/who-we-are/eaa-board-of-directors

Talk or act; your choice.


BJC

[smutny]

Before people start lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks...

It's my understanding this was not a Board level decision. Like most companies, some policies develop at the middle management level. EAA has become big enough where that now happens. Unfortunately, I doubt most of those folks are as active in EAA's programs as the membership is and don't understand fully how they work.

[Floatsflyer]

It's my understanding this was not a Board level decision. Like most companies, some policies develop at the middle management level. EAA has become big enough where that now happens. Unfortunately, I doubt most of those folks are as active in EAA's programs as the membership is and don't understand fully how they work.

Your speculation is as valid as anyone's. My speculation is as follows:

I don't believe for one nano second that this new policy was put forward without the express approval of an individual(s) at the board level and/or Jack--too much importance. It may have been a project for a middle manager but it required approval by upper management for it to be put forward as new policy to be implemented.

This is pure speculation of course but the genesis and raison d'être occurred in the following manner before it got to some staff member as a project. One of two scenarios occurred. Either EAA's current insurer did an evaluation of risk and liability as contractually required over the term and concluded that this was an area where the Association was difficient and exposed. OR EAA has taken on a new insurer and they were required to conduct an audit to identify exposure to liability prior to providing coverage in a new insurance policy.

[Byron J. Covey]

Before people start lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks...

It's my understanding this was not a Board level decision. Like most companies, some policies develop at the middle management level. EAA has become big enough where that now happens. Unfortunately, I doubt most of those folks are as active in EAA's programs as the membership is and don't understand fully how they work.

John:

I certainly am not advocating lighting torches or sharpening pitchforks.

Regardless of the level of management involved, the Directors have a role to play, and if they fully understand the membership's concerns as well as management's concerns, then they should be able to meet their responsibilities.


BJC

[smutny]

John:I certainly am not advocating lighting torches or sharpening pitchforks.

It wasn't directed at you in particular. This board has a lot of Keyboard Kommandos that love to rabble-rouse when they don't agree with things. Before they started shooting off emails and calls to the list you provided, they should know that many Board members were not aware of the change. Were some? Possibly. But based on the conversations I've had, it was not a BoD decision.

[vettdvr]

-----------
However, I stopped at the online application for a criminal background check. In the Age of Hacking, we're all taught that we should never submit our name, DOB, and SSN online. Even if legit, most companies have a miserable record at protecting data. So who the heck is this hired background security check company, and why should I trust them with personal data fundamental to identity theft?


I totally agree with the issue on sending all critical numbers for identity theft to any one. HIGH RISK. If the Veterans, Federal Gov, hospitals, can hack the info why does EAA need it? I just5 had a background from State police why didn't the EAA just check there is already one completed. I did send the info in against my better judgment hope it doesn't bite me later. I think this can and has the potential to have a negative effect on YE. Several pilots that fly YE have had state back ground checks and are reluctant to all the record keeping of who's trained, who isn't keeping chapter records, permission slips. Getting to be a police state with too much red tape.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Some interesting stats...... This thread has had 238 contributions with 16,300+ views.
The poll has had 59 people take it and has had 1274 views.
What conclusions can we draw from these numbers?

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?6475-Poll-Young-Eagles-Background-Security-Checks


An update - 2/1/16
Poll has 3,236 views with 84 votes ...... only 84 votes !? [39 contributions which mostly contain way too much testosterone]
This thread has 27,317 views and 338 contributions .....and a bit less testosterone

[martymayes]

What conclusions can we draw from these numbers?

The popcorn vendor is going to be rich?

[Mike Hongisto]

Given EAA’s policy change regarding youth interaction and the new administrative and personal burdens it will require of our Chapter membership I will propose, at our next meeting, that beginning May 1, 2016, that we simply prohibit minors from participating in, or being present at, any EAA Chapter 1221 activities.

It’s possible our members will vote to comply with the new background checks, training, monitoring, record keeping procedures, and more, as required by EAA, thereby allowing minors to participate in Chapter 1221 activities, but I doubt it. I expect that the cost/benefit scenario, specific to our Chapter, simply doesn’t support meeting EAA’s new youth policy requirements. I expect that many other EAA Chapters will be forced to acknowledge the same.

Obviously, as individuals and not EAA members, we can welcome and encourage youngsters to hang out at the airport, come see our airplanes and projects, and/or go for rides. Beginning May 1st, all youth activities will need to be positioned well clear of EAA and it’s brand.

Mike Hongisto
President – EAA Chapter 1221
HongistoMichael@aol.com

[DaleB]

Some interesting stats...... This thread has had 238 contributions with 16,300+ views.
The poll has had 59 people take it and has had 1274 views.
What conclusions can we draw from these numbers?
My conclusion, especially after a conversation tonight with several other chapter members is... the poll results are not entirely accurate. I think the percentage of people who will not comply with the current requirements is far higher than 80%. I suspect there are a number of chapters that will just pull the plug on YE entirely, and that's really sad.

This year would have been the first I would be able to fly YE flights. I've volunteered in the past doing ground support, but this year I've finally got a plane (Danger! Only 2 seats!) and will be current enough to be comfortable flying with passengers again. Now this. Oh, well. I'd like to fly kids with YE, but I'm not going to jump through that kind of hoops to do it. And yes, I think the requirements are more than a little insulting too. Feel free to run my name through the database if you really feel i necessary, but the rest is nonsense.

[fidot]

This year would have been the first I would be able to fly YE flights. I've volunteered in the past doing ground support, but this year I've finally got a plane (Danger! Only 2 seats!) and will be current enough to be comfortable flying with passengers again. Now this.

Unless things change, at least you have till May 1st to do it! :)

[DaleB]

Our first YE rally is planned for July, I think. It's OK. I'll fly the grandkids and whoever else wants to go up, apparently just not as part of YE unless EAA management recognizes the sheer magnitude of their mistake.

[Acronut]

The popcorn vendor is going to be rich?

Hello to fellow EAAers. I don’t frequent the forum sites, but figured this issue might highlight some interesting points of view, so I checked in.

I too am concerned about SSN/personal info issues, and as many of you have already pointed out, it is a risk you take when absolutely necessary. The rest of the requirements can be improved and made more reasonable.

So to me, it was a risk worth taking to ensure I can continue to support YE. The joy that this gift brings to the kids, and the reaction after the flight is our personal reward, as you all have experienced. Introducing the next generation(s) to the freedom of flight is something I am very passionate about. It’s my chance to give back. The best way to do this, is in an organized, well publicized event like EAA Y.E.

As for the poll with very few participants, I have my doubts as to the validity of results, since most of us are busy with our daily life, make our go/no-go decisions and move on (the silent majority, maybe). I think the number of volunteers participating in the training and background check far exceeds what is represented on this poll. Just a thought and nothing to back it up with. Except for our event organizer and few others volunteers have already done both the training and background check and are willing to work with EAA to make the rules workable.

EAA will have to make some changes to the requirements as part of the learning curve by listening to the constructive comments from the members and event organizers. I am sure it is/was anticipated, but it could've been done better.

So don’t get rid of that booster cushion just yet. Hope it works out!

[Copapilot]

I was just over on the Blueboard (www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89628 (http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89628)). They had a link to a thread about this on the Purpleboard (http://www.purpleboard.net/forums/sh...&postcount=229), that claimed providing the SNN on the background data entry screen was optional,based on a current screen capture of the data entry page. I compared that screen capture image to the one I made on the 22nd. Sure enough, the information required has changed. (see attached images)

Seems to be that sometime in the last 24 hours, the powers that be in EAA "corporate" had a change of heart and made providing your SSN optional. Once again, we're the last to know when they change the rules; but evidently they ARE listening. Perhaps even more changes will be made, to address the policy operational issues raised here and elsewhere.

1st capture on the 22nd:
5323

2nd capture on the 27th:
5325

[wallda]

I have been approved. My SSN has been compromised many times. Those of you who think yours hasn't are probably wrong. My entire life has been about making sacrifices to help others, I will continue to do so.

[Jeff Point]

I understand the sentiment, but it is possible for Association members to set the direction of the Association through the election of Directors. Here is how it works: https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/about-eaa/who-we-are/eaa-member-proxy-voting
While it my be theoretically possible, time and experience have proven that it is not likely to happen in any practical way. I was involved in a proxy collection effort in 2012 so I am quite familiar with the process and it's workings. Similar efforts have met similar results in the past. 2012 was a perfect environment to finally affect a change, but the departure of Hightower in October 2012 took much of the wind out of the sails of our efforts.

Anyway, that's beside the point. This decision came from senior management, not from the board. I'm still waiting for senior management to weigh in and answer some questions. The bunker mentality that they have taken is not helping the situation.