Concealed Weapon Carry and Aviation

[blw2]

I've been away from flying for several years. I have always maintained my EAA & AOPA memberships, and my interest though.

I'm rekindling my airport bum self, and I recently joined a local airport pilot's association. They meet in a hanger inside the fence.

This set me to thinking. I'm a CCW permit holder in Florida, although i never carry. i do keep a weapon in my vehicle though and will be driving through the secure gate. This particular airport has very limited airline traffic, mostly GA. And there is a contract control tower on field.
I can also imagine wanting to bring it along sometimes if I get active in flying again that would be taking me to other airports too.
BUT
with all the new rules, TSA and otherwise
and the big fences surrounding the airports that didn't used to be there when i was flying...I'm a little confused about the secure or sterile areas on an airport and how all this fits.... GA and weapons and airports.

I've done some research but there's some grey areas it seems. I figured I can't be the only CCW pilot, so I figured I turn here and ask what you do.

[Floatsflyer]

With respect to your self-admitted long time non-flying circumstances, I'm puzzled by your current peculiar and unique concern.

Jerry Seinfeld, in one of his stand-up routines, said, "now they show you how detergents take out bloodstains. I think if you've got a shirt with a big bloodstain all over it, maybe laundry isn't your biggest problem."

Likewise, if you haven't flown for years and are seriously interested in flying again and becoming current, maybe asking if you can carry a concealed weapon in an airplane isn't your biggest problem.

[blw2]

thanks for taking the time to respond....
BUT
it IS the most immediate.... if I strive to be honest and law abiding that is....
At this point I'm only intending to be an airport bum again. I don't have nearly the time to do that as I used to, but thought I might be able to grab a few minutes here and there....join the club, get to know some folks...
& besides, to get back into the airplane, I'll eventually be going to the airport. Driving through the gate.

thinking ahead, and knowing that others are certainly in the same situation it's a valid question.

[Dana]

...I might be able to grab a few minutes here and there....join the club, get to know some folks...
& besides, to get back into the airplane, I'll eventually be going to the airport. Driving through the gate...

The kind of airports where you would want to "join the club, get to know some folks" don't have a "secure gate". And, though I really don't know (not having flown into a towered field in 30+ years), I don't think the TSA is watching the GA entrance, they're too busy groping the passengers in the airline terminals.

[Aaron Novak]

I would think the easiest thing would be to check the local airport rules. I believe KOSH does not allow firearms on airport property, much like the other county run areas. A quick call to the airport manager should answer your question.

[Bob H]

At our rural, uncontrolled airport, a bunch of us like to fly down to a roadless dry lake and shoot periodically. We don't advertise the activities but have been doing these flights for many years. Guns, ammo and targets are loaded in planes, flown and taken home after the flights. We don't stop at controlled airports and keep everything low key. Have not had any problems doing this.

[dusterpilot]

Hunters operate private aircraft and fly on chartered aircraft, carrying their tools of the trade, all the time. If you have a CCW permit, no one should ever know you are carrying if you are carrying responsibly and are not required to go through a TSA checkpoint into a secured area. If there is a "no guns" sign but no security checkpoint, you should use discretion. Response varies by state. In some states, if you are discovered to be carrying in an area where the owner has posted a "no guns" sign, they can only ask you to leave. They can't arrest you or confiscate your weapon. Use common sense and carry responsibly and you shouldn't have any problems.

[Bob Dingley]

I used to fly for a 135 outfit that had an Alaskan division. There was never anything in the ops manual against carrying. However, State law used to mandate a fire arm on board. Back in the lower 48, we had some discussions (with ex Alaskans) over our evening milk and cookies about favorites carried. Some pilots even carried on the job in the lower 48. One I know had huge hand gun in his flight bag that would have awed Dirty Harry. Never saw anyone root through a pilot's flight bag in over a quarter century. The current crop of pilots has a large percentage of CCWs and much of their emails these days deal with good ammo deals, etc.

Bob

[Mike M]

I used to fly for a 135 outfit that had an Alaskan division.....Bob

Four of the Pt135 non-sked operators I flew for over the years authorized the PIC and other crewmembers to carry firearms, as per Pt135.119b. Common sense. Many of the places we worked, we were the only armed security for miles around.

[Floatsflyer]

Four of the Pt135 non-sked operators I flew for over the years authorized the PIC and other crewmembers to carry firearms, as per Pt135.119b. Common sense. Many of the places we worked, we were the only armed security for miles around.

Your enthusiasm for "common sense" rationalizing makes me very curious about 3 things that I hope you'll answer:

Why would a fully qualified pilot hired to fly airplanes so willingly accept the added and far lesser(and more dangerous) role of armed security guard?

Were you provided with proper and formal training to carry out the armed security role?

As a non-military commercial pilot flying presumably for a private company(unless it was Air America), what places were you flying to that required the need for armed security?

[Bob Dingley]

As a non-military commercial pilot flying presumably for a private company(unless it was Air America), what places were you flying to that required the need for armed security?
In the case of the Alaskan guys, there were the bears (Polar and grizzly). As for us guys in the lower 48, every so often we were told "We need you to RON in New Orleans." BTW, a very large percentage of our pilots were and are ex-military. When I was 19, the USMC permitted me to keep a loaded fire arm in my fox hole.

Bob

[Byron J. Covey]

As a non-military commercial pilot flying presumably for a private company(unless it was Air America), what places were you flying to that required the need for armed security?

That is why one carries - one never knows when it will be needed.


BJC

[67jwbruce]

I do carry when I fly sometimes. Any towered airports you are likely to go into have a GA side and a commercial side, even if they are in the same building. Use common sense when it comes to 'no gun' signs just like you would anywhere. I'm not planning on surviving an emergency landing in a flooded rice field just to have to say to the poisonous snakes "Aww, you guys leave me alone, I don't have my gun today - was headed to big yank international..." And as far a proper training... How'd you get proper training for flying? You did a lot of it. You want proper training for using and carrying a gun, same thing, you need to do a lot of both carrying and using it.

[FlyingRon]

You can't rely on sigs. For example, in Virginia it is illegal to carry even into the pre-security side of commercial air terminals. There are a few smaller regional served facilities where the FBO and the commercial air terminal are one and the same.

[Frank Giger]

As to why a charter crew would carry firearms in the role of security guard, that would depend on their cargo, I reckon. They might be required to sit on it during transport.

The whole converstation, though, speaks to a unique feature of the pilot community: strict adherence to the rules.

I'm all in favor of following aviation rules - 99.9% of them are there for very good reasons, put in place after others suggested them with their blood. We tend to, as a group, try very hard to stay within all of them, as blowing off one rule is the first step to recklessness.

However, we seem to be overly legalistic at times, confusing things we shouldn't do with things we can't. Airplanes shouldn't be fueled inside a hangar. But they can be. One should never fly without their pilot's certificate on their person (or in their aircraft), but the airplane will work either way, and a pilot can in fact fly an aircraft without the document.

On the matter of CCW's, if the pistol is concealed and one never displays or speaks of it, who's to know? It's not part of a ramp check list (that very rare happening everyone seems deathly afraid of). If one is asking if they could potentially violate a rule (and it can vary from FBO to FBO and state to state) then they probably shouldn't carry - why make one's self uncomfortable? For others who carry daily and think of a pistol as a normal part of their wardrobe, I'd say they won't worry about it either way.

[FlyingRon]

I'm all in favor of following aviation rules - 99.9% of them are there for very good reasons, put in place after others suggested them with their blood. We tend to, as a group, try very hard to stay within all of them, as blowing off one rule is the first step to recklessness.
You say this and then you pooh pooh the rules that were earned in blood that you don't happen to lik.


However, we seem to be overly legalistic at times, confusing things we shouldn't do with things we can't. Airplanes shouldn't be fueled inside a hangar. But they can be.

This one I agree with. Not only is it dangerous to you, it's dangerous to the safety of personnel and property in hangar (and those adjacent). Not fueling inside the hangar is right up there with not smoking while you're fueling.


On the matter of CCW's, if the pistol is concealed and one never displays or speaks of it, who's to know? It's not part of a ramp check list (that very rare happening everyone seems deathly afraid of).

The FAA is not going to be the problem so much as local law enforcement. I've had conversations with LEOs at small airports on any number of occasions (without issues). In some states you are required to disclose you are carrying concealed. If whatever situation ever does get escalated, it's an easy conviction to show you carried into an area specifically precluded by law even if they can't nail you on anything else.


If one is asking if they could potentially violate a rule (and it can vary from FBO to FBO and state to state)

FBO rules are of lesser consequence than state laws which will result in criminal prosecution.

For others who carry daily and think of a pistol as a normal part of their wardrobe, I'd say they won't worry about it either way.
For many of us who carry regularly and lawfully, we are cognizant of the state laws for any state we travel through. It's part of the responsibility of carrying a gun just like you have the responsibility to know the FARs, stay out of TFRS, etc...

[Frank Giger]

It's a matter of thinking about the why of a rule rather than just following them.

Even on a short cross country to airfields I'm familiar with, I check for NOTAMs. Not because it's a rule, but because even on a familiar airport things can change - like a strip being closed for maintenance.

A couple years ago I drove to Kansas and Missouri from Alabama. I carried my pistol. Part of my trip put me through the tip of Illinois. My CCW is NOT recognized in Illinois (but is in both Kansas and Missouri). What to do? My answer was to just drive through that corner of the state and not worry about it.

I agree that one should know the laws from various states as it relates to firearms. From there one can make a decision, just as one does on when and when not to carry.

[1600vw]

I always wondered, if its Conceal Carry, how does anyone know you are carrying? If the sign says no guns allowed, and its concealed, how do they know you have a gun if it's concealed? Open carry I can understand. But if its concealed who knows? I have friends who have carried guns everywhere they go and have for over 30 years. No one is the wiser. Why because they are concealed.

[FlyingRon]

Read my response above. In most cases you are right, but I'm not risking a criminal prosecution based on the fact that nobody will notice my weapon. There are times when it might get noticed even despite attempts to keep it concealed. If you have some otherwise innocuous run in with the police, them detecting an illegal firearm on you now rises it to the level of arrest and prosecution.

[WLIU]

Check out http://www.handgunlaw.us/ for info on concealed carry in all states. Kept pretty up to date.

General aviation airports in most of the country are generally low crime areas. But as noted above, there are other hazards. I have had a series of relatively intimate conversations with our local black bears. They have always conceded my point, but having bear spray and a firearm helps add confidence to my side of the discussion. And when I fly further north to where the density of people goes way down, my kit includes a firearm, for both survival and signalling.

So having a firearm at the airport, and in your ship, can make a lot of sense depending on your airport. But Air Carrier Airports have places where firearms can get you into hot water and you should know where those are.

And I practice regularly. No good unless you can hit what you aim at.

Best of luck,

Wes

[wyoranch]

I can't imagine being hijacked in my plane. If you are not sure unload it, separate the gun from the ammo and when you arrive at the place you feel you need it reverse the process.
Rick

[Dana]

I can't imagine being hijacked in my plane. If you are not sure unload it, separate the gun from the ammo and when you arrive at the place you feel you need it reverse the process.
Rick

I remember back in the early 1970s when hijacking planes to Cuba was in vogue, some clown tried to hijack a (IIRC) Cessna 310 to Cuba. On the plane were a student in the left seat and instructor in the right seat, which confused the hijacker. I forget the details, but Cuba was well beyond the range of wherever they were. As I recall, the instructor deliberately damaged the plane when they landed for fuel, putting an end to the adventure.

Re concealed carry, federal law allows you to carry firearms from a state where you're legal to possess it to another state where you're also legal, through states where you aren't, as long as it's unloaded and locked someplace inaccessible (e.g. the trunk of your car). In planes is also OK, though there have been issues when planes made unplanned landings in between.

[blw2]

I always wondered, if its Conceal Carry, how does anyone know you are carrying? If the sign says no guns allowed, and its concealed, how do they know you have a gun if it's concealed? Open carry I can understand. But if its concealed who knows? I have friends who have carried guns everywhere they go and have for over 30 years. No one is the wiser. Why because they are concealed.


Read my response above. In most cases you are right, but I'm not risking a criminal prosecution based on the fact that nobody will notice my weapon. There are times when it might get noticed even despite attempts to keep it concealed. If you have some otherwise innocuous run in with the police, them detecting an illegal firearm on you now rises it to the level of arrest and prosecution.

Exactly!

[Mike M]

Floatsflyer:

Why would a fully qualified pilot hired to fly airplanes so willingly accept the added and far lesser(and more dangerous) role of armed security guard? I was (and continue to be) MY security, not the boss's security.

Were you provided with proper and formal training to carry out the armed security role? My DD214 is an indicator. No Pt135 training because no Pt135 duty was assigned.

As a non-military commercial pilot flying presumably for a private company(unless it was Air America), what places were you flying to that required the need for armed security? Look down some time at the terrain you're overflying. Do you carry a survival kit? Why not?

[rwanttaja]

I can't imagine being hijacked in my plane. If you are not sure unload it, separate the gun from the ammo and when you arrive at the place you feel you need it reverse the process.
Actually, back in the 80s/90s, there was a case where a small aircraft was hijacked. Think it was a Cessna 182. This was in the old USENET days, and the guy posted a detailed description after the court case ended.

Edit: Found it (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.piloting/nJXglYbjOjs/245C3OSJkzEJ).

Anyway, he was working in his hangar on a Saturday evening when a young man showed up, presented a gun, and demanded a flight. The pilot complied. The hijacker didn't know much about aviation, so the pilot convinced him that he needed to be talking to ATC. He set the appropriate code, ATC casually quizzed him to ensure it wasn't a mistake, and the flight continued.

After flying a for two hours, the pilot said he had to land at an airport for fuel. So the pilot had ATC vector them to an airport. The cops jumped them both inside the FBO, and that was that.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mayhemxpc]

Maybe I am not seeing something, but 135.119 (b) doesn't require someone to be assigned security guard duties. Just that the individual was authorized by the certificate holder to carry arms.

[cub builder]

I followed your link (Ron W.) and reread the hijack account. What a hoot. I remember him posting that to the old rec.aviation forum back in the USENET days, but had long since forgotten. A pretty comical read. Thanks for posting.

-Cub Builder

[Onex33]

When I lived in Wyoming I carried a small survival pack in my Cardinal which included a 38 special pistol. It was for signaling, food(rabbit, grouse, etc) as well as protection. Just make sure you remove the pistol from your survival pack if you fly into Canada!!
Loren
Onex 33

[Floatsflyer]

Just make sure you remove the pistol from your survival pack if you fly into Canada!!
Loren
Onex 33

Oh ya!! The gun culture divide and difference is a hundred times deeper than the world's longest undefended border is long.

[Freddie]

Why do I get the idea that Floatsflyer has never read the U.S. Constitution? and likes to check that others are "properly trained" and has a "true" need to defend themselves. These types are called "The Enforcer". Bet I could guess which political party he belongs to. Probably the wrong place to make such statements but I just can't resist when such questions are put forth. For your info: I carry concealed because it is my right to do so; I need no other reason that that; have you ever watched the news lately?

[Dekef4]

Your enthusiasm for "common sense" rationalizing makes me very curious about 3 things that I hope you'll answer:

Why would a fully qualified pilot hired to fly airplanes so willingly accept the added and far lesser(and more dangerous) role of armed security guard?

Were you provided with proper and formal training to carry out the armed security role?

As a non-military commercial pilot flying presumably for a private company(unless it was Air America), what places were you flying to that required the need for armed security?


Sorry about all the BS you've gotten in response to a straight forward and honest question on this topic! First check your state laws on concealed carry they define where you cannot carry. Some states exclude airports. Next check with the airport authority that is in question as they may possibly prohibit even when state law does not. CC is different than Transporting. In most cases you can Transport (unloaded and cased) as long as you do not enter a SIDA area. Only law enforcement or military can carry inside any SIDA area. This is the part of the airport where commercial part 121 and some 135 operations are conducted. Charter and scheduled operations. If in doubt unload it,case it, and lock in the trunk or glove box and you should be fine.

[Mike M]

Why do I get the idea that Floatsflyer has never read the U.S. Constitution? and likes to check that others are "properly trained" and has a "true" need to defend themselves. These types are called "The Enforcer". Bet I could guess which political party he belongs to. Probably the wrong place to make such statements but I just can't resist when such questions are put forth. For your info: I carry concealed because it is my right to do so; I need no other reason that that; have you ever watched the news lately?

Can of worms there. Obergefell v Hodges last summer decided that all persons anywhere in USA jurisdiction can exercise Constitutional rights everywhere in the USA with the lowest level restrictions applicable to any person anywhere. Sooner or later someone will realize that all Constitutional rights must have equal protection or none do. Stand by for heavy weather.

[FlyingRon]

Can of worms there. Obergefell v Hodges last summer decided that all persons anywhere in USA jurisdiction can exercise Constitutional rights everywhere in the USA with the lowest level restrictions applicable to any person anywhere. Sooner or later someone will realize that all Constitutional rights must have equal protection or none do. Stand by for heavy weather.

But understand airports will always be a sensitive area like federal buildings, court houses, etc... You are dangerously sticking your head in the sand if you think that the this is going to change and Obergefell doesn't set precedence here (though it indicates the sense of the current court into such matters). If you're going to travel somewhere by car or by air, it behooves you to understand what the local laws are in each place. As stated, lots of podunk airports have scheduled air service and it would be far to easy to wander into the SIDA from the airside. Further, as I pointed out earlier, some states like Virginia, make it illegal to carry on the "dirty" side of security as well.

[kinger]

With respect to your self-admitted long time non-flying circumstances, I'm puzzled by your current peculiar and unique concern.

Jerry Seinfeld, in one of his stand-up routines, said, "now they show you how detergents take out bloodstains. I think if you've got a shirt with a big bloodstain all over it, maybe laundry isn't your biggest problem."

Likewise, if you haven't flown for years and are seriously interested in flying again and becoming current, maybe asking if you can carry a concealed weapon in an airplane isn't your biggest problem.


Instead of being funny and conceited be quite or be helpful.

[Floatsflyer]

Why do I get the idea that Floatsflyer has never read the U.S. Constitution? and likes to check that others are "properly trained" and has a "true" need to defend themselves. These types are called "The Enforcer". Bet I could guess which political party he belongs to. Probably the wrong place to make such statements but I just can't resist when such questions are put forth. For your info: I carry concealed because it is my right to do so; I need no other reason that that; have you ever watched the news lately?

Whoa there Freddy boy! You're making a lot of assumptions and conclusions that reflect your negative state of arrogance, attitude, ignorance and knowledge.

Actually, I have read and know quite a few parts of the U.S. Constitution. I never needed to, I was a poli sci major, I like to absorb knowledge and I'm Canadian. Is the 2nd Amendment all you know or care about?

I'll bet the value of your truck that you know nothing of my constitution-I'm Canadian.

I'll bet the value of your gun rack, boots, buckle and hat that you could not guess what political party I support--I'm Canadian.

For your edification, you DO NOT have the right to carry concealed. You DO have the right TO APPLY for a permit for such carry. There is no guarantee that one will be approved. Perhaps you may possess the cranial capacity to distinguish the difference. Perhaps not.

And yes, I do watch the news-- yours, mine and the world. Canadians are not xenophobic(you can look it up). Yours is particularly sad and distressing.

[rwanttaja]

For your edification, you DO NOT have the right to carry concealed. You DO have the right TO APPLY for a permit for such carry.
Loath as I am to perpetuate a gun brawl, but: The US Constitution states that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Whether that applies to civilian weapons, military weapons, individual citizens, state militias, private militias, tactical nukes, open carry, concealed carry, cannon-armed Kitfoxes, or whatever is subject to interpretation by various bureaucrats and courts.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

Loath as I am to perpetuate a gun brawl, but: The US Constitution states that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Whether that applies to civilian weapons, military weapons, individual citizens, state militias, private militias, tactical nukes, open carry, concealed carry, cannon-armed Kitfoxes, or whatever is subject to interpretation by various bureaucrats and courts.

Ron Wanttaja

All true Ron, no argument as far as the multitude of interpretations at Supreme and state level courts. But Freddie boy wrongly claims he has the "right" to carry concealed and I said he clearly does not because he must submit an application which can be denied. For Freddie boy's circumstances here's the applicable rules, regs, qualifications and requirements for New Mexico:

http://www.usacarry.com/new_mexico_concealed_carry_permit_information.html

[Mike M]

"Whether that applies ... is subject to interpretation by various bureaucrats and courts."

"...wrongly claims he has the "right" to carry concealed ... does not because he must submit an application which can be denied...here's the applicable rules, regs, qualifications and requirements for New Mexico"

Uh, so what? From the same source as the New Mexico requirements:

"Arizona has passed a new “Arizona Constitutional Carry” law that went into effect on July 29, 2010. This law means that as long as you are legally able to own a firearm and is 21 year of age or older, you can carry concealed in the State of Arizona without a concealed weapon permit.... Arizona is a Shall Issue State and issues concealed weapon permits to residents of Arizona as well as out-of-state/non-residents." And Vermont's law, "It is lawful to carry a firearm openly or concealed provided the firearm is not carried with the intent or avowed purpose of injuring a fellow man. There is no permit required to carry concealed."

And from the Supreme Court:

"The idea of the Constitution was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. This is why fundamental rights may not be submitted to a vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”

We can be married in any county and regardless of state or local laws forbidding it we're married everywhere. It's a Constitutional right since 26 June 2015. Substitute "carry" for "marry" and "carrying" for "married" and your mileage may vary? No, I don't want to be the test case, but the Court's meaning was crystal clear regarding the right of the individual not to be injured by the unlawful exercise of governmental power. So marry your buddy, carry a firearm where you want, have the speed dial for a good lawyer, go before you go and wear clean underwear when you leave the house. :)

[Mayhemxpc]

The answer again and again is: "Check the law." Can you carry openly? Check the law? Can you have ready access to the gun in your plane but must unload and secure it when leaving the plane? Check the law. (I actually know of one jurisdiction which says you MUST carry openly outside of your car -- box and locked is not good enough.) Is your plane considered your "curtilage" when on an airport? Probably, but check the local laws.

The discussion was not whether you should, whether it was a good idea, or whether to say go ahead because no one will find out. The question was whether someone could legally do something. The first principle of rule of law may be commonly violated as of late, but the second rule -- that the law should be accessible to all, seems to be still in effect. There are various websites that can be used, even if they may not particularly apply to general aviation.

For Floats -- didn't there used to be a Canadian law that when overflying certain remote areas that there MUST be a survival firearm on board? (I might be confused with Alaska.)

PS: I fly a plane that has a rifle rack as standard equipment!
5300

[Taylordragger]

Carry your gun. Keep it concealed, where appropriate, so as not to offend those who who don't get the idea of freedom....to protect yourself, and likely to fly one of those dangerous airplanes. My gosh, somebody could get hurt!

[WLIU]

Canadian laws are quite different than the US. The Canadian equivalent of the US Constitution does not state a right to be armed. In the US, SCOTUS, through the Heller and McDonald decisions, has affirmed that the 2nd Amendment, in the Bill of Rights, states that there is an individual right to own and carry arms. What is still being litigated is the ability of the states to limit the manner and location of carry.

Many states allow carry, open and/or concealed right up to the security checkpoint at air carrier airports. And of course you can check your unloaded firearm at the airport counter in an appropriate locked container (TSA locks are a no-no per federal law) as you check in to fly out on your hunting trip.

It is indeed important to read the laws for your particular state. Carry that is perfectly legal in NH will get you arrested in NJ.

To address the question in post #1, in general, if it is legal to carry in your local Walmart or Starbucks, it is legal to carry at your airport outside of the secure areas. Most states have pre-emption where the state says that only they have the authority to create laws regarding firearms. This generally means that an airport management is not empowered to declare firearms off limits. They have to follow the applicable laws. In my geography some local PD's have tried to discourage the open carry of handguns and the result has been them paying out lawyers fees and damages, and being direction to retrain their officers. If an airport here were to try the same approach, they would also be quickly "corrected".

But the most important aspect of carrying a firearm is knowing the laws if the state and locality that you are in. What people "think" is often wrong. Read the statutes. Just like carrying passengers in your ship, carrying a firearm comes with some responsibility.

But then, the original poster knows some of this or the question would not have been posted. Idiots carry on without asking. Smart people ask and read up on the facts.

Oh, if you look at a sectional chart that covers Canada, you will see a line from east to west, north of the large population areas. If you look at the chart legend, it explains that line. If you fly north of that line you are required to carry survival equipment, which must include a long gun of at least a specified caliber (I think .30).

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Freddie]

Whoa there Freddy boy! You're making a lot of assumptions and conclusions that reflect your negative state of arrogance, attitude, ignorance and knowledge.

Actually, I have read and know quite a few parts of the U.S. Constitution. I never needed to, I was a poli sci major, I like to absorb knowledge and I'm Canadian. Is the 2nd Amendment all you know or care about?

I'll bet the value of your truck that you know nothing of my constitution-I'm Canadian.

I'll bet the value of your gun rack, boots, buckle and hat that you could not guess what political party I support--I'm Canadian.

For your edification, you DO NOT have the right to carry concealed. You DO have the right TO APPLY for a permit for such carry. There is no guarantee that one will be approved. Perhaps you may possess the cranial capacity to distinguish the difference. Perhaps not.

And yes, I do watch the news-- yours, mine and the world. Canadians are not xenophobic(you can look it up). Yours is particularly sad and distressing.

Just substitute Floatsflyer for Freddie in your 1st sentence and it will make more sense. As far as your 2nd sentence; I have studied the U.S. Constitution since the 7th grade and I'm now 72 years old and still studying. Actually, in the last 30 days, I have read Ben Carson's book talking about his take on the U.S. Constitution, the history of our founders while they formulated and argued over the U.S. Constitution, took yet another college course on the U.S. Constitution and donated another few hundred dollars to Hillsdale College which has just reached its goal of teaching 1 million new students the U.S. Constitution. Go back another 30 days and I have studied 2 books and taken one course on the case law of the Supreme Court as they attempt to interpret the U.S. Constitution. As far as your political science major; I don't consider the U.S. Constitution be political in any respect. It is the guarantor of our natural rights. 3rd sentence; no bet; I know nothing of the Canadian Constitution. I lost interest when you lost your right to own a gun. 4th sentence; I don't own a gun rack nor boots; I do occasionally wear a hat. 5th sentence; I do have a right to carry concealed because the license in my pockets says I do. Also, New Mexico law says that one will be approved, lacking a criminal history or a pronouncement by a court that I'm insane. Sometimes my wife thinks I'm insane but so far she can't find a judge to go along with it. And lastly, I was able to use xenophobic in a sentence by the 8th grade. I am truly amazed that one Canadian can be so wrong. At 1st I thought this discussion was off subject, but the basic question and the subsequent excellent responses are exactly on point. The basic question of course deals with our legal rights as pertains to where we can or cannot carry a firearm and anyone who has a wrong take should be corrected. As some innocent folks have discovered, there are traps out there that can ruin your life. And by the way, I harbor no animosity toward Canadians in general; but it is in the general makeup of red-blooded Americans to debate anyone in the light of helping them maintain a correct understanding.

[Floatsflyer]

For Floats -- didn't there used to be a Canadian law that when overflying certain remote areas that there MUST be a survival firearm on board? (I might be confused with Alaska.)

Both you and Wes bring up this issue. Maybe at some time in the distant past this may have been the case but at least since 1996, there is no mandatory requirement for having a firearm on board when overflying sparse areas of the country.

Wes also mentions a line across the country which would have been far, far up north(I never knew of it, never flew so far north) which no longer exists having been replaced by a new set of regs concerning the carrying of survival equipment, when, where and what including some exclusions.

This Canadian survival gear tutorial was written at the time by the then CEO of COPA-Canadian Owners and Pilots Association. It must be similar to US requirements.

https://www.copanational.org/files/kp09104.doc

[ssmdive]

All true Ron, no argument as far as the multitude of interpretations at Supreme and state level courts. But Freddie boy wrongly claims he has the "right" to carry concealed and I said he clearly does not because he must submit an application which can be denied. For Freddie boy's circumstances here's the applicable rules, regs, qualifications and requirements for New Mexico:

http://www.usacarry.com/new_mexico_concealed_carry_permit_information.html

You are wrong - Check AZ for example. No permit needed to carry at all. And several States are also like that.
Also you should know the difference between shall issue and may issue States. We have several shall issue States. So you can only be denied if you are a prohibited person.

I'll stop here, but maybe you should not make claims that you are not sure of, and while you may have a degree in Poly-Sci, you have shown that you do not have correct information on US laws.