Smokers Flout The Rules

[BeagleOne]

And here we see why smoking should not be allowed anywhere on the grounds. These two people, both of whom are smoking, were just a few yards upwind from the B-17 on the west ramp about an hour before the Bentley concert. I went to find a west ramp crew member, who said he would find security, but did not. When I saw a group of security guys a few minutes later, I told them about the smokers and they said they would check things out. By then the couple had probably finished their cigarettes.

BTW, NONE of the EAA personnel with whom I spoke knew that smoking wasn't allowed in that area!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some people are stupid enough to smoke a few yards upwind from an irreplaceable airplane. I looked at the map of the grounds. The ultralight smoking area is just on the other side of the barn from the boundary fence. The vintage and warbird smoking areas are a few hundred feet away from the fence, as is the smoking area behind the Wearhouse. If people need to smoke that badly, they are never too far from the boundary fence.

It's way past time to ban smoking from the grounds.

[wyoranch]

Ban smoking and all you get is many people hiding and smoking in places that, they do not belong and should not be smoking near. Let's start with enforcing ( I mean really enforcing ) the smoke free areas.

[Byron J. Covey]

It's way past time to ban smoking from the grounds.

Agree 100%.


BJC

[miemsed]

I agree ban smoking completely.

[PlaNeNuTz]

I could smell cigarette smoke in a few of the port-o-sans. (don't ask if I seen any butts). Also could smell cigarette smoke around the grounds a few times. Most people follow the rules. Some don't and don't care. I agree. Safety is an issue. It's probably time for a total ban.

[Mayhemxpc]

If the current rules aren't enforced why would we believe that a total ban would be enforced? Like so many things, enforce the rules we have before making other rules.

[BeagleOne]

I can see both sides of it, enforcing the existing areas or banning it entirely, but I am in favor of the latter...a good start would be to be sure that all of the EAA volunteers and employees know what the smoking policy is. I saw this guy today outside the Sky Shoppe, next to the Federal Pavilion. From the map I'm not sure if this is a smoking area, it looks like the area is farther south, by the Brown Arch. Shoot, I'm old enough to remember when there was a chain-link fence at Brown Arch level and no one could bring any drinks or food around the airplanes. I know times have changed and I don't mean to imply that smokers should be ostracized, but there are places you just shouldn't have things that are on fire! And if I've seen three people violating the policy in two days, I can just imagine how much smoking is going on in the non-smoking areas.

[Floatsflyer]

I can see both sides of it, enforcing the existing areas or banning it entirely, but I am in favor of the latter...a good start would be to be sure that all of the EAA volunteers and employees know what the smoking policy is. I saw this guy today outside the Sky Shoppe, next to the Federal Pavilion. From the map I'm not sure if this is a smoking area, it looks like the area is farther south, by the Brown Arch.

If there's a butt can close by it's a smoking area. The map is kind of useless for identifying smoking areas. I know, I'm a recovering smoker, 6 months now smoke free and I'm very pleased with the results so far.

This is my very first Oshkosh as a non-smoker and I'm good. I know where every butt can is on the property from many years past and so far I haven't seen anyone smoking away from them.

Love the pic of the elderly lady sitting on scooter obliviously smoking away on Boeing Square. Reminds me of people attached to IV's smoking outside of hospitals. And speaking of Boeing Square has anyone else seen the irony of the Airbus 350 parked on Boeing Square right next to the large Boeing exhibit. These guys are sworn enemies.

IMO, I too believe there are enough rules in place and a total ban would be cruel and unusual punishment. EAA just needs to fully enforce the current rules.

[wyoranch]

If there's a butt can close by it's a smoking area. The map is kind of useless for identifying smoking areas. I know, I'm a recovering smoker, 6 months now smoke free and I'm very pleased with the results so far.

This is my very first Oshkosh as a non-smoker and I'm good. I know where every butt can is on the property from many years past and so far I haven't seen anyone smoking away from them.

Love the pic of the elderly lady sitting on scooter obliviously smoking away on Boeing Square. Reminds me of people attached to IV's smoking outside of hospitals. And speaking of Boeing Square has anyone else seen the irony of the Airbus 350 parked on Boeing Square right next to the large Boeing exhibit. These guys are sworn enemies.

IMO, I too believe there are enough rules in place and a total ban would be cruel and unusual punishment. EAA just needs to fully enforce the current rules.


Floats,
Congratulations!!! I am on my first week of being reformed. Any tips? How do you feel after 6 months?
Rick

[miemsed]

If there's a butt can close by it's a smoking area. The map is kind of useless for identifying smoking areas. I know, I'm a recovering smoker, 6 months now smoke free and I'm very pleased with the results so far.

This is my very first Oshkosh as a non-smoker and I'm good. I know where every butt can is on the property from many years past and so far I haven't seen anyone smoking away from them.

Love the pic of the elderly lady sitting on scooter obliviously smoking away on Boeing Square. Reminds me of people attached to IV's smoking outside of hospitals. And speaking of Boeing Square has anyone else seen the irony of the Airbus 350 parked on Boeing Square right next to the large Boeing exhibit. These guys are sworn enemies.

IMO, I too believe there are enough rules in place and a total ban would be cruel and unusual punishment. EAA just needs to fully enforce the current rules.

much easier to enforce a total ban. If someone is smoking anywhere on the grounds, they are ejected from the grounds. No claim of I thought this was a smoking area because the entire grounds are non smoking.

[Floatsflyer]

Floats,
Congratulations!!! I am on my first week of being reformed. Any tips? How do you feel after 6 months?
Rick

Congrats to you too! And the very best of luck especially the first 3-4 weeks. Getting off nicotine is worse than heroin. At least with heroin there's a 12 step program.

I have no tips for you because my circumstances were different than yours. Sounds like you made an actual decision to stop. Me, I came down with a really bad flu at the end of January and it lasted about 4 weeks. You know, as a smoker, when you're sick and feeling really crappy, the last thing you want to do is smoke or even think of smoking. That was my situation, I didn't miss it at all and by the end of 4 weeks all traces of nicotine were out of my body. So I just said to myself, let's see if I can continue to not smoke for another month, another and another. Now it's 6 months. I don't say I've quit, I say I've stopped and await the next month to be finished. I'm thinking that if I make it to a year, then perhaps I'll say I quit.

I feel really good so far and I'm really proud of myself, after 40 plus years of smoking, I never thought I could stop. I chew a lot of sugarless gum which seems to be a substitute for having a cigarette in my mouth or having to satisfy some oral fixation. The only time I have any sense of a craving appears to be after dinner in the evening. I get the sense that when I'm finished, something is missing like I'm forgetting to do something. What's missing is going outside to have a smoke. I don't have that feeling after breakfast or lunch. Weird?!

Once again, all the best.

[Floatsflyer]

much easier to enforce a total ban. If someone is smoking anywhere on the grounds, they are ejected from the grounds. No claim of I thought this was a smoking area because the entire grounds are non smoking.

Have a heart Chris. Smoking is a disease like any other disease, only worse because of the addiction factor. You wouldn't ban people with heart disease, or kidney disease, or chrones disease or a myriad of other diseases. Would you? So why smoking?

[miemsed]

Have a heart Chris. Smoking is a disease like any other disease, only worse because of the addiction factor. You wouldn't ban people with heart disease, or kidney disease, or chrones disease or a myriad of other diseases. Would you? So why smoking?

Well that may be but the problem with smoking is everyone around them at Airventure is forced to smoke with them. Many attendees value their health and do not want to breath the cancer causing smoke generated by others who choose to smoke in areas where they are not supposed to. A ban would benifit all attendees for both safety of aircraft and attendee health. By the way no one said ban smokers from attending just ban smoking on the grounds.

[scuba72]

Granted, smoking in non designated areas needs to be fixed. I have attended Airventure as a smoker and always looked for the designated areas to fulfill my nasty habit. If the non smokers don't wish to inhale second hand smoke, you can always walk around that area. You don't need to walk through an area roughly the size of a small house and look with disgust at some one enjoying a smoke and complaining they are hurting you. Walking 20 or 30 feet out of the way won't hurt you.

If you see some one smoking where they shouldn't, instead of getting upset, politely explain to them why that isn't a good place to light up. If they ignore you, then its time to get EAA staff involved.

Unfortunately I am not there this year, but if I was I would no longer be looking for a place to smoke. I stopped smoking almost 4 weeks ago. How you may ask? I use Nicorette Gum and an electronic cigarette. (I think they call it Vaping) Now what I would like to know is how all you non smokers feel about us using electronic cigarettes? I still would go to a smoking area to use it, but at least its not lighting up.

Dave in Missouri

[Floatsflyer]

Well that may be but the problem with smoking is everyone around them at Airventure is forced to smoke. A ban would benifit all attendees for both safety of aircraft

No one is forced to smoke, that's absurd. People walk around, not through the designated areas. And besides all of this occurs outside where the smoke dissipates very quickly.

I have never seen anyone smoking around an airplane. And if they did so what! Obviously the big certifieds of the 60's, 70's and 80's (Cessna, etc.) didn't think that was an issue because in the cockpits they had ash trays built into the the arm rests. If you learned to fly in the late 60's on up to the early 80's you trained in 150's, 152's and 172's with ashtrays in them. They were there for smoking IN the plane.

[miemsed]

No one is forced to smoke, that's absurd. People walk around, not through the designated areas. And besides all of this occurs outside where the smoke dissipates very quickly.

I have never seen anyone smoking around an airplane. And if they did so what! Obviously the big certifieds of the 60's, 70's and 80's (Cessna, etc.) didn't think that was an issue because in the cockpits they had ash trays built into the the arm rests. If you learned to fly in the late 60's on up to the early 80's you trained in 150's, 152's and 172's with ashtrays in them. They were there for smoking IN the plane.

pictures have been posted in this thread that show smoking near airplanes. The argument that it dissipates outside and does not force those around to breath it is foolish. I was their Mon and tues this year. Smokers were smoking well outside the designated areas. We were eating in a food vendor seating area and two smokers sat at the upwind table right next to us and started smoking. We had to stop eating and leave or breath the cancer causing smoke. This of course was a non smoking area. Of course their young child was also breathing the smoke but that is another story. Many smokers do not believe second hand smoke is dangerous to others because they will not even admit smoking is dangerous to their own health. I have even witnessed smokers smoking while fueling an airplane. Anytime you have smoking around the exterior of an airplane, there is the potential for fuel and fuel vapors which is dangerous. It does not matter if you do not feel there is a danger, it is a fact that it is. I am sorry that many smokers are not convinced of the dangers of smoking but they are well documented. For the safety, health and comfort of all attendees, smoking should be banned on the EAA grounds. EAA has tried the designated smoking areas for years and unfortunately many smokers just ignore the rules. Some smokers follow the rules but unfortunately the ones that do not, ruin it for everyone. A ban would be much easier to enforce and increase safety for everyone. Sorry you disagree with that. You can continue to advocate for smoking, that is your right. I will continue to advocate for the right to be safe and to breath smoke free air..

[JesseD]

pictures have been posted in this thread that show smoking near airplanes. The argument that it dissipates outside and does not force those around to breath it is foolish. I was their Mon and tues this year. Smokers were smoking well outside the designated areas. We were eating in a food vendor seating area and two smokers sat at the upwind table right next to us and started smoking. We had to stop eating and leave or breath the cancer causing smoke. This of course was a non smoking area. Of course their young child was also breathing the smoke but that is another story. Many smokers do not believe second hand smoke is dangerous to others because they will not even admit smoking is dangerous to their own health. I have even witnessed smokers smoking while fueling an airplane. Anytime you have smoking around the exterior of an airplane, there is the potential for fuel and fuel vapors which is dangerous. It does not matter if you do not feel there is a danger, it is a fact that it is. I am sorry that many smokers are not convinced of the dangers of smoking but they are well documented. For the safety, health and comfort of all attendees, smoking should be banned on the EAA grounds. EAA has tried the designated smoking areas for years and unfortunately many smokers just ignore the rules. Some smokers follow the rules but unfortunately the ones that do not, ruin it for everyone. A ban would be much easier to enforce and increase safety for everyone. Sorry you disagree with that. You can continue to advocate for smoking, that is your right. I will continue to advocate for the right to be safe and to breath smoke free air..

First note: I dislike "zero tolerance" zealots. :mad: Whether it's smoking, "drugs" (see: girl who was suspended from school over Midol), or pretty much anything else, zero tolerance is generally a stupid idea.

The primary thing, for me, is that they shouldn't be smoking near airplanes. While, in many cases, you can throw a lit cigarette into a pail holding gas with no effect (one of my friends used to do this as a demo) that doesn't make it right. I think the smoking areas, which are spread out nicely, should be used as intended. There is a ridiculously small chance, primarily with cheaper cigarettes, that the chemical the paper is soaked in will cause an ignition. That's just bad news and should be avoided. I fully support going up to smoker and politely asking them to extinguish the flame source near the potentially large source of fuel is wise. Should they refuse, then I think it's time to get staff involved, and maybe the guys (especially in the central square / warbird island / et al.) who own the planes involved to get the problem corrected. Do not be confrontational about it, because they're just going to be like anyone else who is being confronted. That means they'll go into one of two modes: flight or fight. Now they probably won't enter fisticuffs with anyone, but they will be as belligerent to you as you are to them. Belligerence is useless, and they may not really understand anyway until it is politely pointed out. Politeness usually wins, with a sheepish apology for the error.

The secondary thing, and this is because you want to harp on the dangers of smoking outdoors, is you're around Av-gas planes. According to the same people that declared smoking so harmful, Av-gas is a horrible (HORRIBLE) thing that contains unimaginably TOXIC lead. Now consider, for a second, that the amount of lead you're (in theory) being exposed to (especially if you touch or hang around the exhaust on planes, particularly Warbirds) is significantly more dangerous than smoke wafting by you. Do you think Jet A smells good? Most environmentalists don't. Do you think Av-gas has a great smell? Again, most environmentalists don't and they positively freak out over the trace amounts of lead. Tetra-ethyl lead has all sorts of nasty carcinogenic (and non-carcinogenic, but still unhealthy) effects on your body. Why, it's positively destructive to children! That's why there's such a push to find an alternative fuel. Do you want to know (because this is a huge airshow with a ton of Av-gas burning aircraft, in particular warbirds) how much lead is being shot out the exhaust? Trace amounts, of course (we use as little lead as possible) but enough to make an environmentalist's blood boil in rage.

This is the zealot's point of view: "Should all of the good citizens of Oshkosh that live 'near' the airport be forced to endure the extra doses toxic lead from the fly-in / airshows? They should ban Av-gas (and Airventure, at least until a safer fuel alternative is found) IMMEDIATELY! Think of the CHILDREN! How many of them will suffer neurological effects from that lead!? How many people can actually afford to leave the area during the fly-in and avoid all that health destroying, tetra-ethyl lead!?"

That's what zero tolerance gets you, zero intelligence.

BTW: Ex-smoker, quit before I went to get my medical and it was PITA. I'm going on 8 years without a cigarette. I don't like smoking, but I dislike zero tolerance zealots even more.

[miemsed]

First note: I dislike "zero tolerance" zealots. :mad: Whether it's smoking, "drugs" (see: girl who was suspended from school over Midol), or pretty much anything else, zero tolerance is generally a stupid idea.

The primary thing, for me, is that they shouldn't be smoking near airplanes. While, in many cases, you can throw a lit cigarette into a pail holding gas with no effect (one of my friends used to do this as a demo) that doesn't make it right. I think the smoking areas, which are spread out nicely, should be used as intended. There is a ridiculously small chance, primarily with cheaper cigarettes, that the chemical the paper is soaked in will cause an ignition. That's just bad news and should be avoided. I fully support going up to smoker and politely asking them to extinguish the flame source near the potentially large source of fuel is wise. Should they refuse, then I think it's time to get staff involved, and maybe the guys (especially in the central square / warbird island / et al.) who own the planes involved to get the problem corrected. Do not be confrontational about it, because they're just going to be like anyone else who is being confronted. That means they'll go into one of two modes: flight or fight. Now they probably won't enter fisticuffs with anyone, but they will be as belligerent to you as you are to them. Belligerence is useless, and they may not really understand anyway until it is politely pointed out. Politeness usually wins, with a sheepish apology for the error.

The secondary thing, and this is because you want to harp on the dangers of smoking outdoors, is you're around Av-gas planes. According to the same people that declared smoking so harmful, Av-gas is a horrible (HORRIBLE) thing that contains unimaginably TOXIC lead. Now consider, for a second, that the amount of lead you're (in theory) being exposed to (especially if you touch or hang around the exhaust on planes, particularly Warbirds) is significantly more dangerous than smoke wafting by you. Do you think Jet A smells good? Most environmentalists don't. Do you think Av-gas has a great smell? Again, most environmentalists don't and they positively freak out over the trace amounts of lead. Tetra-ethyl lead has all sorts of nasty carcinogenic (and non-carcinogenic, but still unhealthy) effects on your body. Why, it's positively destructive to children! That's why there's such a push to find an alternative fuel. Do you want to know (because this is a huge airshow with a ton of Av-gas burning aircraft, in particular warbirds) how much lead is being shot out the exhaust? Trace amounts, of course (we use as little lead as possible) but enough to make an environmentalist's blood boil in rage.

This is the zealot's point of view: "Should all of the good citizens of Oshkosh that live 'near' the airport be forced to endure the extra doses toxic lead from the fly-in / airshows? They should ban Av-gas (and Airventure, at least until a safer fuel alternative is found) IMMEDIATELY! Think of the CHILDREN! How many of them will suffer neurological effects from that lead!? How many people can actually afford to leave the area during the fly-in and avoid all that health destroying, tetra-ethyl lead!?"

That's what zero tolerance gets you, zero intelligence.

BTW: Ex-smoker, quit before I went to get my medical and it was PITA. I'm going on 8 years without a cigarette. I don't like smoking, but I dislike zero tolerance zealots even more.

For the health, safety and comfort of all attendees, smoking should be banned on the Airventure grounds.

Thanks for your comments.

[vaflier]

Lets see what else should be banned ?????. How about all the drinking that goes on, we all know about those drunk drivers and how many people they kill. While we are at it we should ban all aircraft smoke, boy that would make for a dull airshow. And how about all the golf carts and scooters, certainly there are people injured by them every year. While we are at it we should ban all internal combustion engines since we know how bad the exhaust fumes are for all of us, so there go the trams, all deliveries of food and equipment, no Porta Potty pumpouts, no aircraft, that means no airshow. Loud noise has to go since that is really bad for our ears and keeps us awake at night causing sleep deprivation which is really bad. I guess the best thing to do is simply ban the entire event so there would be no crashes and no one hurt just to be on the safe side. I really dislike zealots in most any form since they can only be pleased with extreme actions. Yet when they are the ones affected , and they will be, there will raise holy h@$& that it is unfair. One extreme or the other is rarely ever the best aproach to a problem.

[JesseD]

For the health, safety and comfort of all attendees, smoking should be banned on the Airventure grounds.

Thanks for your comments.

For the health, safety, and comfort of all residents of Oshkosh, Airventure should be banned until an alternative lead free fuel is in use.

That, my good compatriot, is EXACTLY how you sound. Zero tolerance is for zealots. Zealots have accomplished little, if any, good throughout history.

Thank you for your opinion, and lack of a direct counter-argument. Please feel free to suffer the cancerous (and non-cancerous, but still bad for your health) effects of Tetra-Ethyl lead (TEL) on your body. Who knows, it may be the last one, because some "environmentalist" might sue to ban Airventure because of the effects.

[Jim Clark]

No one is forced to smoke, that's absurd. People walk around, not through the designated areas. And besides all of this occurs outside where the smoke dissipates very quickly.

I have never seen anyone smoking around an airplane. And if they did so what! Obviously the big certifieds of the 60's, 70's and 80's (Cessna, etc.) didn't think that was an issue because in the cockpits they had ash trays built into the the arm rests. If you learned to fly in the late 60's on up to the early 80's you trained in 150's, 152's and 172's with ashtrays in them. They were there for smoking IN the plane.
You weren't next to my 39 Waco Cabin on the end of row 63 when 3 a holes lit up within 5 feet of my prop. BAN SMOKING AT AIRVENTURE

[Floatsflyer]

You weren't next to my 39 Waco Cabin on the end of row 63 when 3 a holes lit up within 5 feet of my prop. BAN SMOKING AT AIRVENTURE

........and, what happened!!?? Tell us the rest of the story. Did the a-holes blow up your plane, did they put the butts out on the fabric, did they flick ashes on your beautiful paint job, did they throw the butts into the engine or did they just admire your beautiful baby and move on?

[miemsed]

For the health, safety, and comfort of all residents of Oshkosh, Airventure should be banned until an alternative lead free fuel is in use.

That, my good compatriot, is EXACTLY how you sound. Zero tolerance is for zealots. Zealots have accomplished little, if any, good throughout history.

Thank you for your opinion, and lack of a direct counter-argument. Please feel free to suffer the cancerous (and non-cancerous, but still bad for your health) effects of Tetra-Ethyl lead (TEL) on your body. Who knows, it may be the last one, because some "environmentalist" might sue to ban Airventure because of the effects.

your comments really deserve no response. I have no desire to have a counter argument. Non smokers should not be subjected to second hand smoke period. I think smoking should be banned at Airventure. Why you feel the need to call someone who wants smoking banned at an event names is beyond me. Smoking has been banned in many many public places so I suppose the people responsible for that are Zealots as well right. Grow up. And yes I still believe smoking should be banned at Airventure but note that I understand you feel it is a smokers right to force second hand smoke on others. Does that make you a zealot? This thread should now be closed or would you call the moderators Zealots for closing it.

[martymayes]

First note: I dislike "zero tolerance" zealots. :mad: ......................... zero tolerance is generally a stupid idea.

Well, they have managed to ban smoking at many other outdoor venues, for example stadium type sporting events. I am not a zealot but if there is a popular vote on the issue, I'll gladly cast my vote to ban smoking at OSH.

When I first went to OSH in the early '80's, there was no smoking on the flight line, period. No food or drink either, I know this because I accidently stepped across the road while holding an ice cream cone. A volunteer quickly jumped me. I was not in the least offended and have no trouble following rules for the event. If I felt I couldn't, then I wouldn't go.

[krw920]

You weren't next to my 39 Waco Cabin on the end of row 63 when 3 a holes lit up within 5 feet of my prop. BAN SMOKING AT AIRVENTURE

If they lit up next to your plane, smoking IS banned in that location. Says it on EVERY wrist band that smoking is prohibited except in designated areas.

[Mayhemxpc]

I have seen the demonstration where a live cigarette was dropped into a pail of diesel and the diesel put the cigarette out. The demonstration then did the same thing with a pail of MOGAS with incendiary effect. It was explained that ignition happened before the cigarette touched the liquid fuel.

In any case, if we want the rules to be enforced we can all play a part, as was suggested earlier. At another event, my airplane had been (over) filled, fuel dripping out the vents, and someone who looked to be more at home at Sturgis than Oshkosh walked up smoking a cigar. I politely asked if he would smoke that close to a race car that was being or had just been fueled. The light went on and he immediately put the cigar out as I said it was the exact same fuel. A polite word can go a long way. If not, then there is usually someone from security close by.

[krw920]

The light went on and he immediately put the cigar out as I said it was the exact same fuel. A polite word can go a long way. If not, then there is usually someone from security close by.

Unfortunately, that light is pretty dim for a lot of smokers.

[Floatsflyer]

At another event, my airplane.....

Sorry to change the subject for just a moment, but thought this was a way to get Chris' attention. This is an Avweb video with Osh 15 highlights. Your O2 may be in it and was curious if it was. Go to 54 seconds in.

http://www.avweb.com/videos/Video-All-Things-AirVenture-2015-224558-1.html

[JesseD]

your comments really deserve no response. I have no desire to have a counter argument. Non smokers should not be subjected to second hand smoke period. I think smoking should be banned at Airventure. Why you feel the need to call someone who wants smoking banned at an event names is beyond me. Smoking has been banned in many many public places so I suppose the people responsible for that are Zealots as well right. Grow up. And yes I still believe smoking should be banned at Airventure but note that I understand you feel it is a smokers right to force second hand smoke on others. Does that make you a zealot? This thread should now be closed or would you call the moderators Zealots for closing it.

Your comments really deserve no response. I have no desire to argue with someone who refuses to use facts I like. Non-pilots should not be subjected to Tetra-Ethyl Lead period. I think Airventure should be banned.

Exactly how you sound.

As an ex-smoker I could have ended up one of two ways: anti-smoking zealot or someone who just didn't care if other people did it. I chose the latter. Do I like smoke? No. Am I going to freak out over trace amounts of it at an outdoor venue? Heck no. Just being around an (100LL) airplane as a pilot exposes me to a more lethally carcinogenic / health debilitating chemical(s) than if a group of smokers lit up around me and took turns intentionally blowing smoke in my face. The exhaust of an AvGas plane is about as healthy as handling ether-acetone (gives you a much larger chance liver cancer) without respirator gear and gloves. Do you wear a respirator designed to filter out TEL (and other trace metals) that exist in AvGas? No? I didn't think so. Heck, you'd probably complain about nicotine vaporizers. While I think some have an obnoxious scents added to them, they are far less toxic (again) than AvGas. You seem to have no grasp of this toxicity concept.

Next, man up bucko. You keep harping about all this "I'm forced to inhale second smoke". Nobody is "forcing" you anymore than the good citizens of Oshkosh are "forced" to inhale trace amounts of TEL from the aircraft. Guess what? It isn't a hearts and flowers world. You want to know some of the really nasty things you take into your body everyday? Just from food & drink? Go look at some of the stuff they ban in the EU that isn't banned here in the US, and even they aren't as psychotic as anti-smoking zealots here when it comes to smoking. Example: I swear, the Dutch don't believe in public ashtrays to put out cigarettes (roll eyes) or enough garbage cans in most places, even at large venue events. No, they just pay a street sweeper to sweep up all the garbage, and that's more than just cigarette butts, after the event (farm market, concert, et al.) is completed.

That's my problem with you: You are a zealot. Heck, even more of a zealot than many "nanny state" loving Europeans. I'll never understand this, and can't explain it, except that you are a person who has no relative understanding about toxicity. I understand you as a zealot feel you have the right to force other people to stop doing what you don't like because it offends thee. My warning to you is don't be surprised if a fellow zealot forces you to stop flying an airplane (or Airventure from existing) because they think they have to right to make you stop using 100LL.

[JesseD]

Unfortunately, that light is pretty dim for a lot of smokers.

It's pretty dim for people in general. You know how many people climb all over my car (1949 Kaiser Manhattan) at a car show? Touch it? With multiple signs all over? FFS don't even ask how many parents get offended when I object to their little rapscallions climbing in my car. I used to leave the door open so people could see the seats (you don't need shocks in a Manhattan, the seats are so gosh darn thick) and the interior better. I just had a couple strings holding signs saying do not enter, but feel free to look from the outside. Now? The doors are shut and locked. Unless I'm there I don't even leave the hood up anymore.

I never, ever, touch someone else's plane without permission either. Yes, even the exhibitor planes. I'll go up look around, and if I really want to, ask first. That's not my property, and the way I was raised you ask first. Don't say that to many of the people at Airventure who touch (or climb all over) stuff without asking.

---
Edits in bold

[miemsed]

Your comments really deserve no response. I have no desire to argue with someone who refuses to use facts I like. Non-pilots should not be subjected to Tetra-Ethyl Lead period. I think Airventure should be banned.

Exactly how you sound.

As an ex-smoker I could have ended up one of two ways: anti-smoking zealot or someone who just didn't care if other people did it. I chose the latter. Do I like smoke? No. Am I going to freak out over trace amounts of it at an outdoor venue? Heck no. Just being around an (100LL) airplane as a pilot exposes me to a more lethally carcinogenic / health debilitating chemical(s) than if a group of smokers lit up around me and took turns intentionally blowing smoke in my face. The exhaust of an AvGas plane is about as healthy as handling ether-acetone (gives you a much larger chance liver cancer) without respirator gear and gloves. Do you wear a respirator designed to filter out TEL (and other trace metals) that exist in AvGas? No? I didn't think so. Heck, you'd probably complain about nicotine vaporizers. While I think some have an obnoxious scents added to them, they are far less toxic (again) than AvGas. You seem to have no grasp of this toxicity concept.

Next, man up bucko. You keep harping about all this "I'm forced to inhale second smoke". Nobody is "forcing" you anymore than the good citizens of Oshkosh are "forced" to inhale trace amounts of TEL from the aircraft. Guess what? It isn't a hearts and flowers world. You want to know some of the really nasty things you take into your body everyday? Just from food & drink? Go look at some of the stuff they ban in the EU that isn't banned here in the US, and even they aren't as psychotic as anti-smoking zealots here when it comes to smoking. Example: I swear, the Dutch don't believe in public ashtrays to put out cigarettes (roll eyes) or enough garbage cans in most places, even at large venue events. No, they just pay a street sweeper to sweep up all the garbage, and that's more than just cigarette butts, after the event (farm market, concert, et al.) is completed.

That's my problem with you: You are a zealot. Heck, even more of a zealot than many "nanny state" loving Europeans. I'll never understand this, and can't explain it, except that you are a person who has no relative understanding about toxicity. I understand you as a zealot feel you have the right to force other people to stop doing what you don't like because it offends thee. My warning to you is don't be surprised if a fellow zealot forces you to stop flying an airplane (or Airventure from existing) because they think they have to right to make you stop using 100LL.

I really am so done with you. Your response above shows why we have a problem with smoking at Airventure. Just to be clear, I believe smoking should be banned at Airventure. I can say that without calling someone who disagrees with me names of any kind.

[JesseD]

I really am so done with you. Your response above shows why we have a problem with smoking at Airventure. Just to be clear, I believe smoking should be banned at Airventure. I can say that without calling someone who disagrees with me names of any kind.

That's because you're arguing from a point of "moral certainty" not facts. Just to be clear: I'm not a fan of smoking, but since I know that simply being around airplanes is far more toxic (TEL heavy metal toxicity) than smoke wafting by, I don't feel the need to tell other people they shouldn't smoke. You are, even if you don't want to see yourself this way, no different than that lady in Arizona who wants the Sedona airport shuttered. I understand you don't like being called out, nobody does, but you are the one putting yourself into the same box. Zero tolerance is for the uninformed. As far as smoking as Airventure, let them have their smoking areas and have security chastise them when they break the rules. I see no need for extremist "solutions" being implemented to appease the scientifically challenged.

[krw920]

. Just to be clear, I believe smoking should be banned at Airventure. I can say that without calling someone who disagrees with me names of any kind.

Smoking IS banned at AirVenture, says so on EVERY wristband, except in designated areas. How would a total ban be enforced any differently that what exists today?

[JesseD]

Smoke IS banned at AirVenture, says so on EVERY wristband, except in designated areas. How would a total ban be enforced any differently that what exists today?

Oh, s/he wants zero tolerance just like MADD. Never mind the fact the rules are broken by a tiny percentage of people overall. Never mind the fact that within that tiny percentage there's an even smaller percentage of the repeat offenders. If it was like alcohol intoxication while driving, most people arrested are well over .10 if I remember properly. Heck many are repeat offenders who are well over .15 by the time they're tested, which means they were even higher before. Damn the facts though, zero tolerance! MADD won't be happy until registering .001 gets your license revoked, the people complaining about "noxious airplane exhaust" won't be happy until GA is banned, and the anti-smokers won't be happy until you can get a fine (or worse) while smoking a cigarette in your own yard because the neighbor smelled a little bit of smoke while barbecuing.

Moral certainty, it's a heck of a drug.

[Tom Steber]

Ok, I'll throw my 2 cents in. I've been coming to Oshkosh since 1970. Haven't missed one yet. I'm also a former smoker. Even when I smoked and was there I either didn't smoke or it was on the other side of the fence. All I can really say is what I've observed first hand over the years and that it's getting worse every year. It's not even so much about all the fuel around and in the aircraft, but I was more worried about someone starting a grass fire that gets out of hand. In case you didn't notice, it was pretty dry this year. I know nothing happened and as far as I know, nothing was damaged either. It's really only a matter of time. I'm all for a total ban of smoking on the grounds. Will that happen? Probably not. But there sure could be a LOT more PA announcements throughout the day. I think I would only hear it said a few times during the airshow portion. Change takes time, especially after they let the genie out of the bottle.

[miemsed]

Smoke IS banned at AirVenture, says so on EVERY wristband, except in designated areas. How would a total ban be enforced any differently that what exists today?

Thanks for asking a reasonable question without name calling. I am happy to respond to this. My feeling is that I have seen the rules are not being followed. Often times the answer is they did not know the flight line or the food vendor seating area is no smoking. Now I agree it is on the wrist bands and it should be clear but some smokers choose to not follow the rules. As I said in a past post, some smokers do follow the rules but many do not and the ones that do not ruin it for all. A total ban, as has been done in many other public areas, removes the I did not know this was a non smoking area excuse, as the entire grounds are non smoking. It is a much easier rule to enforce. That is my opinion and that is what I would vote for if it was ever put to a popular vote.

[Mayhemxpc]

Sorry to change the subject for just a moment, but thought this was a way to get Chris' attention. This is an Avweb video with Osh 15 highlights. Your O2 may be in it and was curious if it was. Go to 54 seconds in.http://www.avweb.com/videos/Video-All-Things-AirVenture-2015-224558-1.htmlThanks! That is it. It looks like Wednesday morning taxiing to the restoration station. It is nice that someone thought my plane worth including in this short AirVenture video summary. I would have never seen this without your interruption to the thread. Now back to our regular programming...

[FlyingRon]

I don't think the cause was helped by having certain board members smoking cigars openly on the flight line all the time.

[Byron J. Covey]

I don't think the cause was helped by having certain board members smoking cigars openly on the flight line all the time.

Names?


BJC

[NAA551WB]

As a line service tech I think that smoking needs to be policed better because of a safety issue. Yes there are harmful chemicals in 100LL exhaust, jet exhaust, car exhaust, lawnmower exhuast, weed wacker exhaust, RC exhaust but what it comes down to and I think the majority of you are missing the point is of safety. If someone was smoking near where I was fueling an airplane at my home airport I would be furious to the point of being an asshole. I want to go home at the end of the day.

If you are caught smoking in a non designated smoking area you should have a mark put on your wrist band similar to having your tag clipped at a ski resort. If you are caught again you are out of the event. No excuses. From a safety stand point it should be a no brainer, it's the end of July, the grass can be very dry and all it takes is one cigarette that was thought to be put out and now you have a grass fire sweeping down rows of airplanes filled with high octane fuel. Good God how hard is it to see the danger in that. And also lets keep in mind not only is 100ll in it's liquid form flammable but even more so is the fumes.

I think we can all agree that smoking does not belong on the flight line or near airplanes. When I used to smoke I would go to the designated smoking areas, have my cigarette and dispose of it in a butt can. Not everyone has the courtesy to follow that. If I was one of the fuelers out there I would be irate if I smelled smoke and I've asked people to put out there smoking materials in the past and will continue to do so.

Everyone take a deep breath and I think we can all agree that smoking needs to be policed way better and I certainly hope that the EAA realizes that this is a problem, especially after Monday when even Danny Clisham called out someone he saw smoking from the announcer stand.

[Zack Baughman]

My biggest problem with smokers this year - way more butts on the ground than in the past. This is Oshkosh - trash goes in a can, not on the ground.

[Low Pass]

My biggest problem with smokers this year - way more butts on the ground than in the past. This is Oshkosh - trash goes in a can, not on the ground.
Don't you know - smokers are exempt from litering rules. Toss the butts wherever they please!! Out the window, on the floor...

[krw920]

As a line service tech I think that smoking needs to be policed better because of a safety issue. Yes there are harmful chemicals in 100LL exhaust, jet exhaust, car exhaust, lawnmower exhuast, weed wacker exhaust, RC exhaust but what it comes down to and I think the majority of you are missing the point is of safety. If someone was smoking near where I was fueling an airplane at my home airport I would be furious to the point of being an asshole. I want to go home at the end of the day.

If you are caught smoking in a non designated smoking area you should have a mark put on your wrist band similar to having your tag clipped at a ski resort. If you are caught again you are out of the event. No excuses. From a safety stand point it should be a no brainer, it's the end of July, the grass can be very dry and all it takes is one cigarette that was thought to be put out and now you have a grass fire sweeping down rows of airplanes filled with high octane fuel. Good God how hard is it to see the danger in that. And also lets keep in mind not only is 100ll in it's liquid form flammable but even more so is the fumes.

I think we can all agree that smoking does not belong on the flight line or near airplanes. When I used to smoke I would go to the designated smoking areas, have my cigarette and dispose of it in a butt can. Not everyone has the courtesy to follow that. If I was one of the fuelers out there I would be irate if I smelled smoke and I've asked people to put out there smoking materials in the past and will continue to do so.

Everyone take a deep breath and I think we can all agree that smoking needs to be policed way better and I certainly hope that the EAA realizes that this is a problem, especially after Monday when even Danny Clisham called out someone he saw smoking from the announcer stand.

This is spot on. Even if you impose an outright no smoking ban on the entire grounds, people are still going to smoke, thinking somehow that the ban doesn't apply to them. Strict enforcement of existing rules will solve the problem and I like the idea of two strikes and you're out.

[Byron J. Covey]

This is spot on. Even if you impose an outright no smoking ban on the entire grounds, people are still going to smoke, thinking somehow that the ban doesn't apply to them. Strict enforcement of existing rules will solve the problem and I like the idea of two strikes and you're out.

Agree, but "the EAA" who should be strictly enforcing the rules are you and me and every other member. Many times at Sun n Fun, Oshkosh and other gatherings I have spoken to a smoker who was smoking where he / she should not have been, and each time the smoker thanked me for the remindder and extingushed the cigarette.

WE are the EAA.


BJC

[NAA551WB]

I totally agree, I've asked people to put out cigarettes in the past at Oshkosh. In fact I had one gentleman tell that it was ok because he was a pilot. I informed him that per FAA regulations there is to be no smoking within 50 feet of a refueling operation. He quickly put his cigarette out.

Are we going to stop every smoker? No, but I believe that we can crack down on how many are out on the flight line by politely asking those that have lit up to put it out. If they refuse than it's time to get EAA staff and security involved.