experimental exhibition catagory

[lawrence88]

i am considering a purchasing a used ,flying kitplane. that is not amateur built. was built by the kit plane manufacturer. has had several owners after the factory built it and then sold it. and is ifr equipped. annual condition inspection is current.

the airworthiness certificate reads experimental exhibition.



any restrictions on where and when i can fly this aircraft?

thank you very any information

[rwanttaja]

i am considering a purchasing a used ,flying kitplane. that is not amateur built. was built by the kit plane manufacturer. has had several owners after the factory built it and then sold it. and is ifr equipped. annual condition inspection is current.

the airworthiness certificate reads experimental exhibition.

any restrictions on where and when i can fly this aircraft?
Unlike Experimental Amateur-Built, there are no standard restrictions on Experimental Exhibition. It might be limited to a certain radius from its home base, it may not be allowed to carry passengers, etc. It really depends on how the original owner was able to convince the FAA inspector.

The aircraft itself will have been issued a set of Operating Limitations, you'll want to get a copy of them and read them before committing.

Ron Wanttaja

[Marc Zeitlin]

i am considering a purchasing a used ,flying kitplane. that is not amateur built. was built by the kit plane manufacturer. has had several owners after the factory built it and then sold it. and is ifr equipped. annual condition inspection is current.

the airworthiness certificate reads experimental exhibition.

any restrictions on where and when i can fly this aircraft?Sort of. See:

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/subsonex/SubSonex_E-E_vs_EAB_Comparison.pdf

for a general description of the differences between EAB and EE. Specifically, see the "Program Letter" and "Operating Limitations" sections - you need to submit a letter EVERY YEAR stating where you're going to be exhibiting the plane, and theoretically, those are the only places you can go with the plane - you can't just jump in it and go get a burger and the next airport restaurant if you feel like it. Theoretically.

The OL section references 8130.2G, which has since been updated to "H", but the differences in these areas are relatively minor.

[WLIU]

That is no longer exactly true. Current op lims for aircraft like the op is looking at no longer limit the operating radius. You can go pretty much wherever you want. You send a pro forma letter to your FSDO each spring listing all of the big flyins, but you are not limited to just those destinations Jets and big warbirds are another matter.

Best of luck,

Wes
Neighbor to two Ex-Ex

[Marc Zeitlin]

That is no longer exactly true.Which part of what Ron or I wrote isn't exactly true?

Current op lims for aircraft like the op is looking at no longer limit the operating radius. You can go pretty much wherever you want.Yes, if you put where you want to go in the Program Letter that you submit to your local FSDO. See part 464 of 8130.2H.


You send a pro forma letter to your FSDO each spring listing all of the big flyins, but you are not limited to just those destinations Actually, you are. The Program letter you send to the FSDO needs to list everywhere you want to go, the dates you're going to go there, and the routes you're going to take and how many hours of flight time you'll take to do it. See 8130.2H Appendix B section 2(b) (as well as all the other sections of the order that pertain to EE aircraft).

Now, how closely does everyone follow these requirements? No clue - maybe everyone does - maybe some do and some don't - maybe no one pays any attention to them at all, and of course, unless you get ramp checked somewhere and the checker knows what the rules about EE aircraft are, there are probably few if any consequences to ignoring the requirements and pretending that you've got an E/AB aircraft. But the order says what it says, and if someone wants to be legal and pay attention to the rules, these are them. If I were the OP, I'd read the 8130.2H order cover to cover and see if I were willing to deal with the restrictions imposed on an EE aircraft, instead of an E/AB aircraft.

[crusty old aviator]

Most of the European built, composite gliders here in the USA are EE. Those pilots who compete in them and can't afford any hiccups with the FAA, send in their annual letters listing all the competitions they may attend. Most of those who don't compete don't even bother with sending in a letter, as they fly locally. I perform a lot of yearly condition inspections on these EE's, and have had numerous conversations with their owners about their responsibilities as an EE owner. Very few send in a letter, listing every day from May 1st thru Dec 1st at their northern base, and the rest of the year from their southern base, if they're snowbirds. Are they strictly legal? No. Are they concerned about it? No, and if they land out and whack a wing or the tail boom, their insurance carrier will still cover the repair costs, or total the bird, without asking to see a copy of their annual FSDO letter. Should you be concerned??? Perhaps that depends on whether you're a law and order conservative, a laissez faire liberal, or one of those libertarians who would prefer to just dissolve the FAA and most of the federal government.

[denniswolf]

Is there any way to convert an aircraft in experimental exhibition to another category? I'm considering purchasing a Sling 4 that was built in S. Africa and brought here for sales purposes. I don't want to have the EE restrictions.

[rwanttaja]

Is there any way to convert an aircraft in experimental exhibition to another category? I'm considering purchasing a Sling 4 that was built in S. Africa and brought here for sales purposes. I don't want to have the EE restrictions.

Certainly, it's possible, but it's not likely the restrictions will be better. Experimental Amateur-Built has the least restrictions of the Special class, but your plane wouldn't qualify. You could convert to Experimental Research and Development or Experimental Market Survey, but you'll find the restrictions wouldn't be much of an improvement over Experimental Exhibition.

There might be a loophole or two that would allow it to be registered as either Special Light Sport or Experimental Light Sport, but that would require the aircraft to fully comply with an existing Sling LSA product and, probably, the Sling company to provide concurrence that it qualifies. It would be quite unprecedented, though, which, translated, means that there's probably few people in the FAA willing to stick their necks out to see it happen.

Ron Wanttaja

[denniswolf]

The Sling 4 is not LSA eligible.

Is there a way to bring a plane into the US that's not part 23 certified and not amateur built? That's where this plane falls. The company is downplaying the restrictions for EE but I'm leery.

[martymayes]

The Sling 4 is not LSA eligible.

Is there a way to bring a plane into the US that's not part 23 certified and not amateur built? That's where this plane falls. The company is downplaying the restrictions for EE but I'm leery.


Exhibition is likely the only and certainly the least restrictive option. Depending on how you use the plane exhibition may or may not be a big deal.

[Mike M]

...If I were the OP, I'd read the 8130.2H order cover to cover and see if I were willing to deal with the restrictions imposed on an EE aircraft, instead of an E/AB aircraft.

As the former owner of an EE aircraft, I concur completely with Mr Zeitlin.

[denniswolf]

As the former owner of an EE aircraft, I concur completely with Mr Zeitlin.

Can you describe what kind of flying you did, how you managed the limitations, and what you told the buyer about EE when you sold it?

[Mike M]

Can you describe what kind of flying you did, how you managed the limitations, and what you told the buyer about EE when you sold it?

Nope. Face to face one on one after frisking you but not in writing and definitely not electronically. Sorry. Going to SunNFun?

[denniswolf]

Nope. Face to face one on one after frisking you but not in writing and definitely not electronically. Sorry. Going to SunNFun?
Understood. I am planning to be at SnF.

[Mike M]

Great, check the forums schedule and we'll meet, Denniswolf. Be glad to speak with you about it. CFAA 7, 0900 Tuesday or Thursday.

[cirruspilot]

I would like to bring this thread to life and learn more about the direction it look. I am also considering purchasing a Sling 4 that's located in South Africa but not sure and very unfamiliar about the arrangements of bringing an aircraft to the US and how to register it. The factory advised me to reach out to the local FAA office but from what I've read, there's no standards on registering as EE.

Any advices for me?
Thanks
Alex

[martymayes]

I would like to bring this thread to life and learn more about the direction it look. I am also considering purchasing a Sling 4 that's located in South Africa but not sure and very unfamiliar about the arrangements of bringing an aircraft to the US and how to register it. The factory advised me to reach out to the local FAA office but from what I've read, there's no standards on registering as EE.

Any advices for me?


If Sling is marketing fully completed airplanes to the US using EE rules to skirt the normal rules simply so they can sell completed airplanes to buyers, it's going to be a tough sell with the feds.

BROKERING. Section 21.191(d) was not intended to allow for
the brokering or marketing of experimental aircraft. This
includes individuals who manufacture, import, or assemble
aircraft, and then apply for and receive experimental exhibition
airworthiness certificates, so they can sell the aircraft to
buyers.

[Skydawg]

Brnging this old thread to life as a lot has changed in regulations. EE op limits for small aircraft are about same as amateur built now, other than a annual fax to FSDO listing where you intend (no requirement to go to any) to exhibit. My Cessna C172 has EE with its V8 engine and my kid is training for PPL in it, which is allowed as long as no compensation occurs. It cost less than $20 USD per hour to fly and far outperforms original engine, and ops limits really are not a problem.