ADS-B and the OSH NOTAM?

[TedK]

Ok...so the FAA wants everybody to install ADS-B. One of the best features of ADS-B is seeing other traffic. Probably one of the busiest pieces of airspace is around Oshkosh during Airventure, but the NOTAM directs everyone to turn off their transponder in the vicinity of OSH.

But ADS-B doesn't work if Transponders are off!

Shouldn't the OSH NOTAM be changed to leave transponders ON so that we have additional help seeing and avoiding each other?

[Mike M]

Ok...so the FAA wants everybody to install ADS-B. One of the best features of ADS-B is seeing other traffic. Probably one of the busiest pieces of airspace is around Oshkosh during Airventure, but the NOTAM directs everyone to turn off their transponder in the vicinity of OSH.

But ADS-B doesn't work if Transponders are off!

Shouldn't the OSH NOTAM be changed to leave transponders ON so that we have additional help seeing and avoiding each other?

Hush, TedK. Nobody wants to hear about the Emporer's nekkidness.

[WLIU]

The technical problem is that the transponders step on each other and the ATC equipment can't do anything with what it sees.

When I fly formation, lead always squawks and everyone else puts their transponder on standby. If everyone squawks, the return codes all merge into what the ATC equipment translates as 1200 instead of the assigned code for lead.

So the NOTAM needs to say all transponders off.

Hope this helps,

Wes
N78PS

[TedK]

But if OSH is doing VFR arrivals, why do we care if the transponders are saturating the radar?

[Mayhemxpc]

If OSH is doing visual contact arrivals, why saturate the ATC system? Another consideration is that IFR arrivals are going on simultaneously with VFR arrivals (e.g., VFR on 36, IFR on 27.) IFR arrivals squawk.

[FlyingRon]

MODE S is supposed to fix the "stepping on problem."

Frankly, I don't even think MODE C is that big of an issue these days. Oshkosh hasn't quite been that busy on arrivals as it was back in the heydey.

[WLIU]

Well, for the next 5 years not everyone will have mode S and there is some likelihood that the OSH arrival will be filled with non-mode S for some time well beyond 2020.

And as a techie, I am skeptical to technical solutions to people problems. I will hazard a guess that ATC will still ask for formation flights to have only lead squawk. Lead is responsible for all of the ships and ATC will happily push off that responsibility onto flight lead since he/she owns separation between flight elements and ATC has nothing useful to say about it.

And looking at OSH, the price of avgas is plunging just like the price of auto gas. So perhaps we will see more ships arriving at Ripon for the next couple of seasons.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[FlyingRon]

Well part of it is the decline in attendees, but the other part of it is that with the tinkering with the start dates (remember it used to start on Friday) it is now the case that everybody doesn't tend to arrive the day before the show starts anymore. We have a less frenetic pace all through the week.

[TedK]

It seems to me that OSH would seem to be a place where ADS-B could really be a benefit, particularly on the merge approaching Ripon, yet the NOTAM requests that everyone strangle their parrot.

it kinda strikes me like requiring everyone to turn out their lights so we don't dazzle those few with Night Vision Goggles.

If FAA wants everyone to have ADS-B, then the system should be set up to benefit those with it.

[WLIU]

OK, perhaps I am dense, but I do not understand the benefit of ADS-B at Ripon. The controllers know that they will have a stream of traffic, they know that they can not provide advisories to each pilot due to the limited bandwidth of the voice radio, and the pilots know that any traffic display in their panel is going to go nuts as they approach Ripon. The approaching aircraft need to see and avoid by looking out the windshield. The controllers at Fisk really just coach people to stay in line and are not capable of doing much more. The dirty secret at ATC is that despite ADS-B reporting with GPS accuracy, the controller displays still have mile resolution.

And I have flown 2 NORDO arrivals into OSH. No comm, no transponder. After 2020 they should rename that the "stealth" or "phantom" arrival as those guys will be invisible to the NextGen system.

Am I missing something?

Wes
N78PS

[TedK]

No Wes, not dense. I am not the worlds best communicator.

IMO, ADS-B would benefit those "in the merge" to self sequence approaching RIPON. Once you are in the Conga Line, ADS-B provides little benefit. What I have found beta testing ADS-B is that it cues me to airplanes that I have otherwise not been detecting.

And you are correct, those sans Transponder won't show up as an ADS-B track so you still have to spend 99.2% of the time looking out. But it works at a strategic level allowing me to detect airplanes beyond Visual Range and position myself long before I see them.

The other benefit would be to those aircraft that depart OSH for demo flights. It gets busy and the ADS-B provides great SA. Ditto the departure from Osh.

On a VMC day at OSH, what would happen if the VFR arrivals continued to squawk until they reached RIPON? Would that materially impact ATC Secondsry Radar? Where is the radar that services OSH located?

[Al Burgemeister]

[QUOTE=WLIU;46818]Well, for the next 5 years not everyone will have mode S and there is some likelihood that the OSH arrival will be filled with non-mode S for some time well beyond 2020.

Mode S transponders provide one of two methods for ADS-B. Mode S transponders are assumed to be the solution for airliner-class aircraft. Universal Access Transceivers (UAT) provide ADS-B service and also provide Flight Information Service Broadcast (FIS-B). They are assumed to be the better solution for GA aircraft. I'm sure the NOTAM is silent on UAT. So strangle your parrot but, unless told otherwise, leave your UAT on.

Al B12

[rebuttons]

[QUOTE=WLIU;46818]Well, for the next 5 years not everyone will have mode S and there is some likelihood that the OSH arrival will be filled with non-mode S for some time well beyond 2020.

Mode S transponders provide one of two methods for ADS-B. Mode S transponders are assumed to be the solution for airliner-class aircraft. Universal Access Transceivers (UAT) provide ADS-B service and also provide Flight Information Service Broadcast (FIS-B). They are assumed to be the better solution for GA aircraft. I'm sure the NOTAM is silent on UAT. So strangle your parrot but, unless told otherwise, leave your UAT on.

Al B12

Bergemeister,
I have a Garmin 400 WAAS with the GDL-88 installed in my Arrow. The Mode "C" works just fine with it. There is no need to go to the Mode "S". The mode 'S' is just another option to transmit your ADS-B OUT information.

[TedK]

[QUOTE=WLIU;46818]So strangle your parrot but, unless told otherwise, leave your UAT on.

Al B12
Most UATs use the Transponder as the Control Head (to avoid the cost of an additional control head) so if you strangle the parrot by turning the transponder to off or stby, the UAT follows suit.

[Jim Rosenow]

I'm sure it varies by equipment, but ADS-B worked great at spotting traffic for us going into/out of OSH last summer, with the transponder off. GDL88 out/ 650 in.

Jim

[BCAIRPORT]

Ok...so the FAA wants everybody to install ADS-B. One of the best features of ADS-B is seeing other traffic. Probably one of the busiest pieces of airspace is around Oshkosh during Airventure, but the NOTAM directs everyone to turn off their transponder in the vicinity of OSH.

But ADS-B doesn't work if Transponders are off!

Shouldn't the OSH NOTAM be changed to leave transponders ON so that we have additional help seeing and avoiding each other?

Ted and All, WHEN FLYING INTO AIRVENTURE, WE ALL NEED TO HAVE OUR HEADS AND EYES "OUTSIDE" THE COCKPIT!!!

[Jim Rosenow]

Ted and All, WHEN FLYING INTO AIRVENTURE, WE ALL NEED TO HAVE OUR HEADS AND EYES "OUTSIDE" THE COCKPIT!!!

I was waiting to hear this from someone, and I agree for the most part. Our scenario was 2-pilot, one full-time outside, the other sharing duties between guages and outside.

By way of example....On our way out, it was hazy and some light rain around. The ADS-B picked out of flight of 8 or 10 Yaks converging (1 o'clock and 2 miles) and 200' below. I was able to pick them out visually at less than a mile only after the ADS-B alerted. We were climbing, which avoided any potential conflict.

ADS-B dun good! :-) That doesn't mean it, or eyeballs, see everything.

Jim

[Mike M]

Ted and All, WHEN FLYING INTO AIRVENTURE, WE ALL NEED TO HAVE OUR HEADS AND EYES "OUTSIDE" THE COCKPIT!!!

and not just around airventure. about 11,000 midairs over the USA per year, and most of them will never be avoided by ADSB or ATC advisories. not even after 2020.

http://wildlife.faa.gov/downloads/Wildlife-Strike-Report-1990-2013-USDA-FAA.pdf

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Safety-and-Technique/Bird-and-Wildlife-Strikes#over

[FlyingRon]

Alas it is foolhardy to think that SEE AND AVOID will work any more than reliance on ADS-B alone either.

There have been a number of notable crashes that occurred when see-and-avoid should have been the rule and it failed. You can start with the Grand Canyon crash that was the impetus for setting up the modern ATC system. I personally can say that the day I put the mode S TIS in my plane I departed out on a hazy day from the avionics shop, looking hard into the murk *AND* getting flight following from ATC and the TIS showed a bogie coming right at me that I didn't see and ATC didn't mention. I climbed up 500 in time to see him pass beneath me.

Nope, I'll take everything from four sets of eyeballs looking out the window to ATC to a passive collision avoidance to full up ADS-B.

[TedK]

Ted and All, WHEN FLYING INTO AIRVENTURE, WE ALL NEED TO HAVE OUR HEADS AND EYES "OUTSIDE" THE COCKPIT!!!

BC- I appreciate your well meaning tips on aviating and concur generally with your view (pun intended) however, my 45 years of flying have not so damaged my hearing that I need to be shouted at, and because I am a practicing aviator my eyes are still sufficiently good that I don't need the Upper Case to make text viewable. I suspect the others are similar.

It is my opinion that "Eyes Out" does not mean "Completely Cease Cockpit Scan." It means to shift the great predominance of your scan to outside the airplane but still check those critical items like airspeed, altitude, oil pressure/temp, etc.

i think you will see that those of us who have flown ADS-B find it to be like an electronic copilot who says "I see traffic at 11oclock and three miles climb toward us". It quickly cues us so that we can spot traffic. Therefore, I include it in my critical scan.

Now, ADS-B has lots of other features like Notams, etc that are best read elsewhere than near OSH.