Is AirVenture Dying?

[Floatsflyer]

While reading Jack Pelton's Commentary in the January SA, I couldn't help but notice the conspicuous absence of the word "AirVenture' in his description of improvements for the event in 2015. He uses the word "Oshkosh" exclusively. So to satisfy my curious mind, I did a little non-empirical research of the edition.

The feature article" Oshkosh Rookies". The title alone appears to be telling in itself and possibly another reason to think that AirVenture could be deliberately eradicated from the lexicon. In the article, Oshkosh appears 27 times while AirVenture appears only 8 times--more than 3 times as much.

In Letters to the Editor is the headline of one letter: "Thank You Oshkosh Volunteers" which is editorial writing.

The Sweepstakes Prize Cub piece uses only AirVenture Oshkosh or just AirVenture in it's references.

In Member Central under the headline "Get Ready for Oshkosh 2015", the words are mixed.

A quick glance at the website shows AirVenture still in use.

Are we looking at conscious efforts to slowly roll-out rebranding; market retooling; a return to the days of yore or are these examples just mere anomalistic coincidences. Am I making too much of this, grasping at straws? Perhaps. Perhaps not. When the Chairman of EAA does not use the word "AirVenture" to describe the biggest cash cow's identity, I gotta think something could be afoot.

Random musings on a cold, snowy day. What y'all think out there?

[gbrasch]

Been going since about 84, it has always just been "Oshkosh" to me.

[CarlOrton]

In his first monthly chapter video, Jack specifically noted that EAA was getting back to its roots and that it would be OSHKOSH.

[rwanttaja]

Been going since about 84, it has always just been "Oshkosh" to me.
I think that's basically it; there was just so much pushback that they finally bowed to the inevitable.

Ron Wanttaja

[Jim Clark]

It's not rebranding. The name Airventure never took hold so why keep fighting against the very recognizable brand "Oshkosh"

[Biyu]

Perhaps im younger but I actually know as eaa and airventure but then we camped in our car once in the oshkosh wallmart parking lot and that's more/less oshkosh

whatever they do people will call what they will well what they will ex: Midwest express is bust yet I still know it as the Midwest express center (from milwaukee area)

[Byron J. Covey]

Been going since about 84, it has always just been "Oshkosh" to me.

Been"Oshkosh" to me since they changed it from "Rockford."

[Jeff Point]

Midwest express is bust yet I still know it as the Midwest express center (from milwaukee area)

Is that the one just west of the First Wisconsin Building?

I think this move away from the Airventure brand started in earnest in 2009 when EAA began to roll out some merchandise with the old style logo. Airventure never really caught on but worse, for the core membership, it represented everything that was wrong with EAA. If they are making a conscious effort to phase out the name (and I believe that they are) then I applaud them for it.

[FlyingRon]

Yeah, it was a little silly EAA greed that they couldn't keep people from selling OSHKOSH shirts, etc...

[Biyu]

Mid west express building was the frontier airlines center for a bit now it's had like 5 names and they do a bunch of things there off the top of my head I think the sports shows are there there's culinary stuff that require passes the green summit in the area that matc is involved with the bead and button show is there there's a bunch that goes on

Im not from downtown so I don't know loc it connects to some hotel THO

[mazdaP5]

In 2009 we were over at Kidventure, and there was a sign for something something Airventure. One of the girls curiously asked "ooh, what's Airventure?!" That pretty much summed it up.

[Jeff Point]

Im not from downtown so I don't know loc it connects to some hotel THO

I think you missed my joke. In any event- the downtown Milwaukee convention center has changed names several times as you mention, but it's a different situation than EAA in that the naming rights for the convention center are sold, whereas "Airventure" was just a branding attempt by EAA. If EAA were to sell the naming rights to the convention "the 2015 Microsoft EAA Convention" for example, that would be more in line with the name changes for the convention center.

Still, for anyone under about 20, I suppose you've always known it as Airventure, but it wasn't always that way.

[FlyingRon]

For ten years Roscoe had been saying Air-a-venture. After years of stumping the EAA Air Adventure museum, he couldn't resist putting an extra syllable in it. RIP Roscoe.

[Biyu]

Well I'm 25 and I remember the a320 come in I think in like 09 landing at kmke dwarfing our md80s worse then af1 to go to "some airshow in oshkosh" lol yes I am pathetic

and if Microsoft got naming like that you wouldn't see me anywhere up there there's a couple companies I can't stand sure I have a bunch of win computers sure I got a win 8 know how much I use it? Only enough to know how to troubleshoot it if im asked for help (used 95 on to modern) and know what systems I prefer? My mac and even the linux I was running for a bit those are like un killible!

And itd be worse with samsung (my iPhone's have been abused pretty bad some had a galaxy ring 3 weeks in no abuse just in my pocket an inner screen fracture rendering it useless samsung wanted 2 x what I paid to fix it NO basic 30 day or that my 3GS which was much older had an inner screen fracture and it was still usable right to the day uncle took it apart lol)

Oh and btw im 25 a good friend who somehow I no longer hear from was the one to get me into planes been to a couple museums and there's a few planes that I'll never forget lol

[Tom Steber]

It's ALWAYS been Oshkosh and only Oshkosh. And BTW, I like the old original logo best.

[FlyingRon]

Only the EAA calls it Airventure. To the rest of the world outside of Wisconsin, it's Oshkosh. To Wisconsinites it's "The EAA," as in "You're in town for The EAA."

I was talking to one of my coworkers and told him I would be out next week because I was going to Oshkosh and he said "oh, you're going to the EAA?"

Yah Hey der, I didn't know you was from Wisconsin!

[Tom Steber]

LOL!!!! You just described every conversation I've ever had with my coworkers!

[malexander]

ALWAYS just been Oshkosh to me.:D

[miemsed]

Airventure, Oshkosh. I really do not care what they call it. It is one of the best aviation experiences my wife and I have every year.

[GeorgeP]

It's ALWAYS been Oshkosh and only Oshkosh. ....Ditto, and always will be. I'll be back again this year - Oshkosh or bust. :D

[FlyingRon]

Sorry, JIM. That's legally not true. First off, registration is not the some total of trademark rights. Trademark rights arise from use in commerce. Obviously your statement in demonstrably false as two companies already have registered trademarks. They coexist because there's no likelihood of confusion between a pair of overalls and an industrial truck.

First off, the EAA never called it the "Oshkosh Air Show" or whatever. Hence they never really had trademark rights to that name. Further, a geographical mark has a weakness. You don't own the word "Oshkosh" by itself. Hence the EAA couldn't prohibit someone outside the gates selling T-shirts with the Word "OSHKOSH" and a picture of an airplane. They enforced it on the grounds by just making it a condition of your booth rental.

Airventure being a "fanciful" name is a much stronger mark. The problem, is that it really never achieved the level of fame that really allowed them to capitalize on it, because people continue to refer to it as Oshkosh (or the EAA depending on where you're from).

[Foxbuilder]

We are from the East Coast and have been attending since '83'. Looking forward to the day we put our "Oshkosh Bound" sign with planes on it, in the window of our motorhome. We enjoys the "Honks", "Beeps" and "thumbs up" as we make our journey to "Oshkosh". And as usual, we are saddened when we have to take it down. It's not just about the wonderful experience that we have inside the gates of the convention but also outside the gates. It began as "Oshkosh" as those first emotional memories were imprinted in our brains and hearts as we finally drove that last tenth of a mile from our 16-17 hour drive as we realized we were in "Oshkosh Wisconsin". Then it continued as we first walked through the gates on opening day as people said welcome to "Oshkosh". Every year it has been enriched by the people we meet from "Oshkosh" who drive the buses we get around in, work in the stores we purchase from, get us the extra blankets and pillows when we have stayed at the dorms, and serve us in the restaurants that we eat at. No matter what it is called - EAA, AirVenture, The Convention, etc, It will always be "Oshkosh" to us. See you there - "Oshkosh Bound 2015".

[rwanttaja]

Further, a geographical mark has a weakness. You don't own the word "Oshkosh" by itself. Hence the EAA couldn't prohibit someone outside the gates selling T-shirts with the Word "OSHKOSH" and a picture of an airplane. They enforced it on the grounds by just making it a condition of your booth rental.
We had that come up in Washington state a few years back, when the Winter Olympics were in Vancouver BC, just north of us. The trademark people starting coming after businesses with "Olympic" in their name...only to have the Olympic Mountain range pointed out, and were invited to prove the business were named after the games, not the mountains.

Ron Wanttaja

[Tango]

I like EAA Airventure! Oshkosh is just a destination. Most people don't know this, Oshkosh has a population of around 70,000 people and more than half of them don't like AirVenture in their city. Which I don't understand it's only for a week and bring in a lot of money. Residence plan their vacation during Airventure. I've been coming to Oshosh since I was 8 now I'm 47 and residents still complain. EAA knows this that why they want attendees to stay on the grounds and offer different nightly actives. In the past years the city use to offer school bus rides to downtown and to different bar locations around town. Now when you go downtown or by UW Oshkosh you won't think that there is over 300,000 people in this small city on a Friday or Saturday night.

[Mayhemxpc]

Just a couple of thoughts here, which may or may not have any factual evidence to support it.

If I knew that 500,000 people were going to decend on my hometown, I might think that is a good time for a vacation, too. That is irrespective about my personal feelings about the event.

The end of July is when a lot of people are on vacation. The original deal with my wife was that we would go to OSH every other year and go somewhere else at that time on alternate years. (That lasted for one biennial period only and we are now going to EAA every year)

Some people also know that they can make a fair amount of money by leasing their homes out during that time period. It is even easier to do so now with the various on-line bookings for vacation residences. (I don't use them, myself. I kind of like the camping experience, but that may change with age…but maybe not.)

I have been to Oshkosh during Airventure and outside of Airventure periods. In either period I find the people of Oshkosh friendly and accommodating. That said, there are always those who will complain about anything. The voices of complainers seem to be the loudest and demand the most attention regardless of where, when, or why. To be fair, Airventure does completely mess up traffic flow along the west side of Lake Winnebago for about two weeks. (Annual summer road construction just adds to the frustration for the rest of the summer.) That is enough to make most people unhappy. Even I would complain about that if I lived in Oshkosh for more than 8 days a year.

About the subject of Oshkosh/EAA/AirVenture? I guess it depends who you are talking to. For some, Oshkosh means the home of outlet malls. For others, the university. In the military and transportation world it is the other side of the airfield. (For those who got a veteran's hat last year, the block letter OSHKOSH on the side of the hat does not refer to EAA or the town, but the maker of all of those trucks that moved and often protected the vets in other parts of the world.) For others, of course, OshKosh is where children's denim clothes come from. If local merchants want to sell clothes with their town name and an airplane on it, so what? We came to Oshkosh WI, we flew or saw airplanes, and bought the T-shirt. If you want an EAA logo on it, however, you better go thru the holder of the trademark.

[FlyingRon]

I like EAA Airventure! Oshkosh is just a destination. Most people don't know this, Oshkosh has a population of around 70,000 people and more than half of them don't like AirVenture in their city.
I that is their attitude, they are politely quiet about it. I've never felt anything but cordiality from the locals when I came in for "the EAA" which includes all sorts of things like a guy who saw us walking down main street going home and getting his car to give us a ride to the airport which we told him we really didn't need (but we appreciated).

[Byron J. Covey]

I like EAA Airventure! Oshkosh is just a destination. Most people don't know this, Oshkosh has a population of around 70,000 people and more than half of them don't like AirVenture in their city. Which I don't understand it's only for a week and bring in a lot of money. Residence plan their vacation during Airventure. I've been coming to Oshosh since I was 8 now I'm 47 and residents still complain. EAA knows this that why they want attendees to stay on the grounds and offer different nightly actives. In the past years the city use to offer school bus rides to downtown and to different bar locations around town. Now when you go downtown or by UW Oshkosh you won't think that there is over 300,000 people in this small city on a Friday or Saturday night.

Tango:

Please post a link to the survey that supports the statement that "more than half of them [Oshkosh residents] don't like AirVenture in their city." My experience has been nothing but positive with the people who live in and around Oshkosh. (Even though they don't seem to like the Poberezeny's and the take-over of the land that is now part of the convention grounds.)

Thanks,


BJC

[Aaron Novak]

I like EAA Airventure! Oshkosh is just a destination. Most people don't know this, Oshkosh has a population of around 70,000 people and more than half of them don't like AirVenture in their city. Which I don't understand it's only for a week and bring in a lot of money. Residence plan their vacation during Airventure. I've been coming to Oshosh since I was 8 now I'm 47 and residents still complain. EAA knows this that why they want attendees to stay on the grounds and offer different nightly actives. In the past years the city use to offer school bus rides to downtown and to different bar locations around town. Now when you go downtown or by UW Oshkosh you won't think that there is over 300,000 people in this small city on a Friday or Saturday night.


Yeah not sure where you pulled that from. There are a few major events that come to oshkosh, the convention being one, Country USA being another, Pathfinders being a third. I hear a good percentage of the population here gripe about the country music festival and the Pathfinders, and very very few gripe about EAA. In fact most people comment how clean the EAA'ers leave the grounds and city, as opposed to the other groups, and in general what a nice bunch of people it is.

[Joe Delene]

As far as crowds and attraction participants go, the 'Airventure' patrons rate well above average, in my opinion. I'd think that the vast majority of local residents appreciate having the event in their town. Yes there are some traffic backups, as with any large event.

[L16 Pilot]

When they charge $250 or more for a Motel 6 someone has to be making money. Seriously, I've been coming to Oshkosh EAA since the first one (1969 or 1970??) and I've never found anyone complaining about the convention although I do suspect some are not happy about the 'expanding grounds' and probably the airplane noise which sounds like music to me. I'd like to see a grass strip to land a quirky tail dragger on when there's a nasty cross wind.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

]When they charge $250 or more for a Motel 6

check the online reservations--its well over $400.00

[FlyingRon]

They'll leave the light on for ya.

[rwanttaja]

When they charge $250 or more for a Motel 6 someone has to be making money. Seriously, I've been coming to Oshkosh EAA since the first one (1969 or 1970??) and I've never found anyone complaining about the convention although I do suspect some are not happy about the 'expanding grounds' and probably the airplane noise which sounds like music to me.
Well, it *is* only one week a year. Those who don't like it can take vacation that week, and skip town.

There'd certainly be the potential business opportunity to open a 1000-room hotel and really cash in on the fly-in...but then, what do you do with those thousand rooms the OTHER 51 weeks of the year? Oshkosh does book other conventions through the year, but none of them come anywhere close to the fly-in. I make several trips a year to Oshkosh, and never have had trouble finding a hotel room...even stay in the Hilton Garden Inn most of the time.

Ron Wanttaja

[CarlOrton]

*snip* I make several trips a year to Oshkosh, and never have had trouble finding a hotel room...even stay in the Hilton Garden Inn most of the time.
Ron Wanttaja

Sorry - not to hijack the thread, but in 2008 we went to Oshkosh in JANUARY (Sonex workshop) and stayed at the Hilton Garden Inn. My wife said to me "How about if I go with you this year?" (meaning, to Convention) She then said, "As long as we can stay at the Garden Inn." I laughed and told her a) it was sold-out for years, and b) we couldn't afford it if it wasn't. She called shenanigans, so as we parked the car and walked into the lobby, I walked up to the counter and said, "My wife would like to make reservations for The EAA." Which year, the clerk asked, then said they were booked solid for 3 years. Ohhhhhhh..... (she survived the dorms and has been every year since then).

[L16 Pilot]

Well, I said $250 or more :) and I guess $400 is 'more'. Having said that I wonder what they get for the Super 8 at the end of 090. My wife and I stayed there several years ago when I attended a workshop and she said 'never again' as it was the dirtiest place we've ever stayed and she is not a particularly complaining person. Generally I sleep under the wing during the convention (weather permitting) or if I drive it's usually back to Coloma or Stevens Point before a room is available at a 'reasonable price'.

[FlyingRon]

Actually, you can get into the HGI if you want. You however must book the entire show at $400+ a night. It runs somewhere around $120 any other night of the year. I've stayed in that hotel outside of the EAA week.

Amusingly at the HGI at the Lakeland airport, I was able to stay there on points during SnF for less points that I could have stayed in the Hampton down the road.

[krw920]

Check out private residences in the area. We rent out our guest bedroom in our walkout lower level of our home for a reasonable price. All our guests have been wonderful to meet!

[Dave Stadt]

Check out private residences in the area. We rent out our guest bedroom in our walkout lower level of our home for a reasonable price. All our guests have been wonderful to meet!

Great way to go. Have been doing it for more than a decade. Better than hotel accommodations for a fraction of the price. Many are a few minutes from the grounds.

[Fastcapy]

I have lived in (or within 10miles) and worked in Oshkosh my entire life.

1. While maybe half of Oshkosh residents is not completely accurate, there are very, very many residents who HATE Airventure. The noise, traffic and long lines at stores are the top complaints. Usually it is people saying "I have to avoid the entire south side that entire week". Trust me many people leave for the week, and really do hate Airventure.

It is true that Oshkosh has many events. They even changed the slogan Oshkosh on the Water to, Oshkosh, Event City USA... EAA brings in the most people and $ handsdown. However, they are generally a well behaved crowd. The Country USA (known locally as hillbillyfest) crowd tends to be a lot of rowdy drunks and create many problems for police and business owners. The pathfinders create a lot of problems for the city and the University (they stay in the dorms). Rock USA has a better crowd than Country USA. Lifest (Christian music festival) brings in a nice, friendly crowd. There are a lot of other events, like multiple fisherees, Waterfest, Sawdust Days (known locally as dirtball days) and many other events. However, people seem to complain the most about Airventure simply due to the huge amount of people it brings in.

2. For me I like Airventure. My buddies/family never say are you going to Oshkosh during Airventure. Most times during that week we just call it "the show" or say hey are you out there/here yet, and we know what it means. For me to say I'm at Oshkosh is silly because I am there every day of the year. If a friend called me and asked where I was and I said I'm at Oshkosh they would be like yeah no kidding, not thinkingknowing I meant Airventure.

My aviation friends and I never call Airventure "EAA" because to us, that could mean many possible things to us. However, my non-aviation friends and co-workers just call it EAA and it is easier to say I am going to be out at EAA all week, because if I call it Airventure they are like Air what? And again if I would tell them I am spending the week at Oshkosh, they would be like, what are you talking about, you are in Oshkosh everyday...

So yeah, I like the name Airventure. It is less confusing when talking with local aviation friends.

I love Airventure, as there is nothing like it, especially when I open up the hangar door, turn on EAA Radio, watch the airshow sitting on the couch with a fan keeping me cool, drinking a cold beer, and maybe have a few friends stop by. That said, I also like when everyone leaves so I can have our airport back to normal ops, it is bittersweet.

BTW, Someone mentioned about Oshkosh known also as the military truck manufacturer. I have never heard any local call it Oshkosh, rather 99% just call it "Truck" with a few calling it Oshkosh Truck or OTC. But if you ask someone who works there where they work they will just say "I work at Truck".

The clothing company, is Osh Kosh. I see people spelling Oshkosh as Osh Kosh all the time. Used to be a large employer here. Now I honestly don't know if they even have any offices here anymore. If they do there are very few employees.

The Outlet mall is just simply the Outlets or Outlet mall. No one here calls it Oshkosh Outlets or anything with Oshkosh in the name.

[plenam]

Two new hotels opening soon in Fond du Lac, Hampton Inn, and, Holiday Inn Express.

[Bill Greenwood]

I would be very surprised if half of the people of the town dislike EAA or Airventure. If they do, they sure don't show it much or at least not so I have seen it and I have been coming every year for 3 decades. Now, I am not in people's homes, but I have been in a dozen restaurants and at least 5 hotels and a few stores. One of the things I most like about the week is that I feel welcome. Yes, some places are crowded, if you wait till 8 pm Fri night. But they do the best they can, and if you go with patience and a friendly spirit, they often say , come on in, can we get you a drink, and we'll put your name on the list. Same in Fon du Lac, etc.
I did have one funny experience one year. I dropped a rent a car off downtown and was taking the city bus back to the airport. As we came on the road by the post office the lady sitting next to me looked at the Airventure grounds with amazement. "Look at all the planes!". I asked her where she was from and she said "Oshkosh,lived here for years!" I asked how she could not know about the convention, and she said she had heard of it, but she lived in the north part of town and had never seen it, and thought it was just a handful of people and planes.

It may have happened,but I just can't recall, any, single instance of waiter, cab driver, or worker being really rude to me, and that even includes the controllers. And man when it comes to controllers, that is really a pleasant surprise from a lot of the rest of the country.

[TedK]

It may have happened,but I just can't recall, any, single instance of waiter, cab driver, or worker being really rude to me, and that even includes the controllers. And man when it comes to controllers, that is really a pleasant surprise from a lot of the rest of the country.

Ditto.

OSH, at least during AV, is what Disney is trying to be.

Who knew that Airplane exhaust had this side effect?

[Fastcapy]

It may have happened,but I just can't recall, any, single instance of waiter, cab driver, or worker being really rude to me, and that even includes the controllers. And man when it comes to controllers, that is really a pleasant surprise from a lot of the rest of the country.

Yeah, usually they make a good amount of money during that week and love it. I know wait staff that make more tips in one day during AirVenture than an entire weeks pay and tips any other time of the year.

Trust me. A lot of people here hate it. Every year we go through the same thing with people saying it needs to move away from Oshkosh. No matter how much you try to explain to them how much money it brings into the city and local area they don't care and just rant on and on about it. You may not see these people because they don't go on the south side during that time as much as possible.

My father-in-law is one of those people who hates it with a passion. Last year we invited my wife's uncle (her dad's brother) out to the hangar to watch the Thunderbirds. Like a good big brother he called my father-in-law just to blast him with jet noise through the phone :)

I'm not going to argue with people on here about it. I grew up and lived/worked in Oshkosh my entire life and I will tell you there are a lot of people here who HATE Airventure and wish it would go away. Every year I try to tell them about the benefits of having it here but they refuse to listen to anything. Owning a locksmith business I make a lot of money that week myself, but I also drive everywhere around town and the traffic is nothing compared to driving in Milwaukee or Chicago, not even close (EAA, Oshkosh PD and Winnebago Sheriffs Office do an amazing job keeping that amount of traffic flowing)

I do agree that wait times are a lot longer at resturants that week, but so what. My only gripe is all the out of town drivers making my daily drive a real adventure as they drive through the roundabouts like madmen... (Don't get the locals, mainly those over age 55, started on the roundabouts. You will get an earful).

[Byron J. Covey]

Yeah, usually they make a good amount of money during that week and love it. I know wait staff that make more tips in one day during AirVenture than an entire weeks pay and tips any other time of the year.

Trust me. A lot of people here hate it. Every year we go through the same thing with people saying it needs to move away from Oshkosh. No matter how much you try to explain to them how much money it brings into the city and local area they don't care and just rant on and on about it. You may not see these people because they don't go on the south side during that time as much as possible.

My father-in-law is one of those people who hates it with a passion. Last year we invited my wife's uncle (her dad's brother) out to the hangar to watch the Thunderbirds. Like a good big brother he called my father-in-law just to blast him with jet noise through the phone :)

I'm not going to argue with people on here about it. I grew up and lived/worked in Oshkosh my entire life and I will tell you there are a lot of people here who HATE Airventure and wish it would go away. Every year I try to tell them about the benefits of having it here but they refuse to listen to anything. Owning a locksmith business I make a lot of money that week myself, but I also drive everywhere around town and the traffic is nothing compared to driving in Milwaukee or Chicago, not even close (EAA, Oshkosh PD and Winnebago Sheriffs Office do an amazing job keeping that amount of traffic flowing)

I do agree that wait times are a lot longer at resturants that week, but so what. My only gripe is all the out of town drivers making my daily drive a real adventure as they drive through the roundabouts like madmen... (Don't get the locals, mainly those over age 55, started on the roundabouts. You will get an earful).

Please tell Oshosh area residents that I appreciate their putting up with us. I know what it is like to be seasonally invaded (I live in Florida) and I appreciate their tolerance.

Note that I have never experienced a negative reaction from a local, and the positive reactions from those that I meet are consistent, appreciated and are a big part of what makes "Oshkosh" what it is.

First visit: 1970.
Most recent visit: 2014.
Next scheduled visit: 2015.


BJC

[krw920]

I will tell you there are a lot of people here who HATE Airventure and wish it would go away.

I live in the Oshkosh area, and I would say it is more a very vocal Minority that wish it would go away. You know the type, those that b*tch about anything that isn't the status quo.

[steve]

Tell the haters to try living in a tourist state. The snowbirds come to FL for 6-7 months. Clogging up traffic and causing long lines at the checkout. There's no getting away from them. Ya can't go to the Walmart in the next town over 'cause they're there too. They always seem to go food shopping just as I'm getting off work and need to pick up a few things for dinner. "Another long day at the beach, tourist?"
The business owners make bank this time of year, tho. Keeps taxes down for us residents.
Lighten up, Francis.

[FlyingRon]

Wisconsin tourism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShrV43xB6yY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v5WAxj5U5A

[Byron J. Covey]

Tell the haters to try living in a tourist state. The snowbirds come to FL for 6-7 months. Clogging up traffic and causing long lines at the checkout. There's no getting away from them. Ya can't go to the Walmart in the next town over 'cause they're there too. They always seem to go food shopping just as I'm getting off work and need to pick up a few things for dinner. "Another long day at the beach, tourist?"
The business owners make bank this time of year, tho. Keeps taxes down for us residents.
Lighten up, Francis.

Steve:

When I start to get frustrated with the snow birds / tourists, I just say to myself. "No state income tax, no state income tax ...."


BJC

[rwanttaja]

Steve:

When I start to get frustrated with the snow birds / tourists, I just say to myself. "No state income tax, no state income tax ...."

Washington State has no state income tax, either, no snowbirds, and pot is legal.

Game, set, and match...:-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Byron J. Covey]

Washington State has no state income tax, either, no snowbirds, and pot is legal.

Game, set, and match...:-)

Ron Wanttaja

It also has no sunshine for much of the year.

See you at Arlington this summer.


BJC

[Bill Berson]

It also has no sunshine for much of the year.
X
See you at Arlington this summer.


BJC

I would suspect that eastern Washington has more sun than Florida. ( mostly desert)

[Byron J. Covey]

I would suspect that eastern Washington has more sun than Florida. ( mostly desert)

More desert in eastern WA than FL, but not more sunshine.

http://www.eldoradocountyweather.com/climate/US%20Climate%20Maps/Lower%2048%20States/Sky%20Cover%20-%20Visibility/Mean%20Total%20Sunshine%20Hours/Gallery/mean-total-sunshine-hours.html#location1


BJC

[Bill Berson]

Look at this chart. http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/map_pv_us_february_dec2008.jpg
Your chart is bogus, it shows same both east and west of Cascades.

[Byron J. Covey]

Look at this chart. http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/map_pv_us_february_dec2008.jpg
Your chart is bogus, it shows same both east and west of Cascades.

Bill, you are right. There is more sunshine east of the Cascades.

My experience in Washington includes about ten weeks, one or two at a time, around Arlington and Seattle, plus a week in Levenworth all in the middle of the summers, and the weather there was beautiful. I also spent about five weeks in and around Arlington in October, November and January, and saw sunshine only two or three days. Don't take this as criticism of people there, it is not. I just need more sunshine than is available west of the Cascades in the winter.

I'm looking forward to flying out to Arlington this summer.


BJC

[Bill Greenwood]

If there has been an article in the local papers or tv show perhaps, that is critical of the annual EAA Airventure, please post a copy for us to see. I don't mean some detail different, but if someone is really advocating stopping the whole thing. the whole week.

[Bill Berson]

Bill, you are right. There is more sunshine east of the Cascades.

My experience in Washington includes about ten weeks, one or two at a time, around Arlington and Seattle, plus a week in Levenworth all in the middle of the summers, and the weather there was beautiful. I also spent about five weeks in and around Arlington in October, November and January, and saw sunshine only two or three days. Don't take this as criticism of people there, it is not. I just need more sunshine than is available west of the Cascades in the winter.

I'm looking forward to flying out to Arlington this summer.


BJC
No problem. I was just pointing out that Washington has a diverse climate. The change from east to west is dramatic.

[BeagleOne]

I was born and raised about ten miles up the road from Oshkosh. I've never encountered anyone who hates the airshow. And trust me, traffic is a LOT better than it was 30 years ago or so. Back then, highway 41 would be backed up for five or six miles in either direction with airshow traffic and it would take us two hours to get there. Now I just zip down 41 from my parents' house and am parked and on the grounds within half an hour.

I didn't like it when EAA got several houses condemned near where the forum buildings now are, and just north of there. I thought they were getting greedy and grabby. I hope that doesn't continue.

I never did like the name "AirVenture". I prefer "the fly-in" or just simply "Oshkosh". I often wear EAA-related t-shirts when I travel, and get a lot of comments about the fly-in. I'll be testing that again next month on Iwo Jima!

[FlyingRon]

Not just the forum buildings but also where a lot of the exhibit area is on the other side of Knapp street. Seriously considered not coming back after that. The Sosnowski brothers (who were one of the Forum area properties) moved their EAA show up the road (they're the ones under the weather balloon announcing BEER). Of course that monopoly was lost when the EAA decided having DRUNKS on the grounds was worth the big chunk of change they got out of it compared to the idea of operating a SAFE and ORDERLY show.

[Byron J. Covey]

I didn't like it when EAA got several houses condemned near where the forum buildings now are, and just north of there. I thought they were getting greedy and grabby.

That was a low point in the behavior of the EAA, and an embarassment to me as a member.


BJC

[Bill Greenwood]

Ron, I think you are not being fair or accurate when you write about" EAA decided having DRUNKS on the grounds is worth the big chunk of change they got out of it instead of having a safe and orderly show" or similar words.

I have never in 30 plus years seen anyone drunk enough to be a problem on the grounds at EAA. Maybe a few in town at some bar or private party, but even then, I think a DUI or alcohol induced accident would be pretty rare. I have never even heard of such an accident..
And no, I was not there the night one performer got into nascar mode after hours on the taxiway. But even this, no accident, and it is super rare.

And big town, late night FRI or Sat is more dangerous on the roads and probably in person. Oshkosh is a welcome reminder every year of how people, for the most part, should behave.
I think they try to have a safe show, and any accidents, of which I wish there were none, are not due to drinking. I have never seen a pilot fly in the show after drinking, other pilots would not sit by for that.

Do you oppose all drinking, maybe on religeous grounds, or do you have some particular incident in mind at EAA?
I can also tell you that is was a big hit at Sun N Fun when then added the Jimmy Buffet tent Margaitaville. The ladies especially liked being able to get a drink on a hot day, and believe it or not,they don't exist solely to discuss the fine points of rib stitching or ADSB.

[FlyingRon]

I was being facetious because that was the bullpoop handed out by EAA management on alcohol consumption on the field before they decided they could make a big chunk of change on it. It was an unallowable safety issue until they realized it was a money maker.

[cluttonfred]

Personally, I would like to Airventure, dead, dead, dead. What I mean by that is that we need a return to the earlier days when the annual EAA gathering was focused on homebuilt and antique aircraft, warbirds and aerobats, not a huge aviation circus with the homebuilders and restorers shoved off to the side to make way for Boeing and all the rest. EAA has become a dog chasing its own tail--the show must be bigger to attract more people, so we need more sponsors to get more money, and now the show must be bigger still, so we need still more sponsors to get more money, etc. We need to return to an annual EAA members convention at Oshkosh, public also welcome, that actual seeks to build the population of homebuilders, aircraft restorers, warbird caretakers and aerobatic pilots in the USA and around the world, not just set records for airshow attendance.

[Jim Rosenow]

Personally, I would like to Airventure, dead, dead, dead. What I mean by that is that we need a return to the earlier days when the annual EAA gathering was focused on homebuilt and antique aircraft, warbirds and aerobats, not a huge aviation circus with the homebuilders and restorers shoved off to the side to make way for Boeing and all the rest. EAA has become a dog chasing its own tail--the show must be bigger to attract more people, so we need more sponsors to get more money, and now the show must be bigger still, so we need still more sponsors to get more money, etc. We need to return to an annual EAA members convention at Oshkosh, public also welcome, that actual seeks to build the population of homebuilders, aircraft restorers, warbird caretakers and aerobatic pilots in the USA and around the world, not just set records for airshow attendance.

Well said, Matthew!

Jim

[Byron J. Covey]

Personally, I would like to Airventure, dead, dead, dead. What I mean by that is that we need a return to the earlier days when the annual EAA gathering was focused on homebuilt and antique aircraft, warbirds and aerobats, not a huge aviation circus with the homebuilders and restorers shoved off to the side to make way for Boeing and all the rest. EAA has become a dog chasing its own tail--the show must be bigger to attract more people, so we need more sponsors to get more money, and now the show must be bigger still, so we need still more sponsors to get more money, etc. We need to return to an annual EAA members convention at Oshkosh, public also welcome, that actual seeks to build the population of homebuilders, aircraft restorers, warbird caretakers and aerobatic pilots in the USA and around the world, not just set records for airshow attendance.

+100 on that Matthew!


BJC

[Fastcapy]

If there has been an article in the local papers or tv show perhaps, that is critical of the annual EAA Airventure, please post a copy for us to see. I don't mean some detail different, but if someone is really advocating stopping the whole thing. the whole week.

If you really want I can try to dig up some letters to the editor of the local papers and comments on Airventure stories on local media.

I can even make up a poll of local friends if you are so amused.

[Fastcapy]

Ron, I think you are not being fair or accurate when you write about" EAA decided having DRUNKS on the grounds is worth the big chunk of change they got out of it instead of having a safe and orderly show" or similar words.

I have never in 30 plus years seen anyone drunk enough to be a problem on the grounds at EAA. Maybe a few in town at some bar or private party, but even then, I think a DUI or alcohol induced accident would be pretty rare. I have never even heard of such an accident..
And no, I was not there the night one performer got into nascar mode after hours on the taxiway. But even this, no accident, and it is super rare.

And big town, late night FRI or Sat is more dangerous on the roads and probably in person. Oshkosh is a welcome reminder every year of how people, for the most part, should behave.
I think they try to have a safe show, and any accidents, of which I wish there were none, are not due to drinking. I have never seen a pilot fly in the show after drinking, other pilots would not sit by for that.

Do you oppose all drinking, maybe on religeous grounds, or do you have some particular incident in mind at EAA?
I can also tell you that is was a big hit at Sun N Fun when then added the Jimmy Buffet tent Margaitaville. The ladies especially liked being able to get a drink on a hot day, and believe it or not,they don't exist solely to discuss the fine points of rib stitching or ADSB.

I have worked for the Oshkosh Police Dept and the Winnebago County Sheriffs Office out on the grounds. There is more alcohol related stuff out there than you would expect. We have had thefts, fights, etc on the grounds. So saying problems on the grounds caused by drinking don't exist is incorrect.

However, that being said, compared to what happens around campus on a given weekend night the alcohol related issues at Airventure are pretty unsubstantial. Those college kids create more alcohol related havoc in a weekend than the attendees at Airventure cause all week! And that is not including the local pub crawl issues with the college kids.

Now, if you want to see some real problems with drinking causing problems, come up to Oshkosh In June for Country USA!!! Yikes.

[Floatsflyer]

I have worked for the Oshkosh Police Dept and the Winnebago County Sheriffs Office out on the grounds. There is more alcohol related stuff out there than you would expect. We have had thefts, fights, etc on the grounds. So saying problems on the grounds caused by drinking don't exist is incorrect.

I witnessed an event of drunkenness that was surprising and distressing to me that happened 3 years ago at Theatre in the Woods during the Lt. Dan Band concert. It happened at the front by stage left(looking at it from the audience) while the band was playing. I was 5 rows from the incident. An elderly man in his 70's at least, was definitely happy and sloshed. He was just an annoyance, he didn't have a weapon and he wasn't trying to fight anyone or start any kind of conflict or altercation. He was standing, swaying, singing and being annoying. Two armed cops quickly grabbed him very forcibly, arms behind back and handcuffed and rushed him out of sight. Many witnessed this including band members.

I thought the degree of force applied to this elderly man(who was probably a veteran) was excessive and needless. He would have gone with them peaceably had they just gently taken his arms and walked him away.

Fastcapy, if you're a cop, perhaps you could explain this unnecessary level of force in this incident.

[Fastcapy]

I witnessed an event of drunkenness that was surprising and distressing to me that happened 3 years ago at Theatre in the Woods during the Lt. Dan Band concert. It happened at the front by stage left(looking at it from the audience) while the band was playing. I was 5 rows from the incident. An elderly man in his 70's at least, was definitely happy and sloshed. He was just an annoyance, he didn't have a weapon and he wasn't trying to fight anyone or start any kind of conflict or altercation. He was standing, swaying, singing and being annoying. Two armed cops quickly grabbed him very forcibly, arms behind back and handcuffed and rushed him out of sight. Many witnessed this including band members.

I thought the degree of force applied to this elderly man(who was probably a veteran) was excessive and needless. He would have gone with them peaceably had they just gently taken his arms and walked him away.

Fastcapy, if you're a cop, perhaps you could explain this unnecessary level of force in this incident.

I was a cop, I decided to change career paths a few years back.

How do you expect me to "explain this unnecessary level of force" when I was not there or involved. You state you were 5 rows away, which is pretty far back in a group of people to know what is actually going down.

How do you know he didn't have a weapon, did you search him prior to the incident? Just because you didn't see one doesn't mean he didn't have one.

How do you know he would have gone peacefully? Do you know of any and all prior contacts they may have had with this individual?

Why were the police there? I doubt they just decided to pick on some old drunk guy. Too much paper work involved to arrest with an old guy having a few drinks and just being annoying.

What does being elderly or a vet have to do with anything. I once had call that a man in his 70's (who was also a veteran) was dragging 2 nurses down the hall of the local hospital by their hair, and by the time I arrived on-scene was choking one of them to the point she was turning blue. Yep, we were told we used unreasonable force, because he was elderly and had a mental illness, by someone who wasn't close by and unable to clearly see what was actually happening with the situation. All they saw was me performing a destabilization maneuver to gain control of the elderly man, who sustained no injuries, unlike the nurses multiple injuries, my partners 2 broken fingers and my broken rib sustained while trying to detain. Luckily, security cameras and multiple witnesses proved force was not unreasonable.

My point is, maybe they were excessive, maybe not. Neither you or I will know as neither was involved directly with the situation.

I still stand by my comment that more goes on than the normal attendee sees, like a couple years ago when the swat teams were deployed due to a threat on the grounds. Did you notice the sniper team on the tower? Or the armored swat vehicles by Hangar A? Unless you work behind the scenes you wouldn't know some of this stuff even happens because Airventure is overwhelmingly filled with great people who never create any issues!

Also, we are lucky that EAA has this thing down to a science and work hand in hand with local police and fire, as well as federal authorities to try to make Airventure as safe as possible.

[FlyingRon]

We had one "impaired" pilot once in a Mooney. I don't know if it was alcohol or what that put him in the altered state but we got him shutdown and I believe the FAA had some words with him after the fat.

The only other event I'm personally aware of was a certain airshow performer attempting to take a short cut between the museum and the Hilton.

[Kyle Boatright]

I still stand by my comment that more goes on than the normal attendee sees, like a couple years ago when the swat teams were deployed due to a threat on the grounds. Did you notice the sniper team on the tower? Or the armored swat vehicles by Hangar A? Unless you work behind the scenes you wouldn't know some of this stuff even happens because Airventure is overwhelmingly filled with great people who never create any issues!

I noticed all of that and more. If they were trying to keep it low key, they failed, but I suspect most of it was intended to be obvious.

[Floatsflyer]

I was a cop, I decided to change career paths a few years back.

How do you expect me to "explain this unnecessary level of force" when I was not there or involved. You state you were 5 rows away, which is pretty far back in a group of people to know what is actually going down.

How do you know he didn't have a weapon, did you search him prior to the incident? Just because you didn't see one doesn't mean he didn't have one.

How do you know he would have gone peacefully? Do you know of any and all prior contacts they may have had with this individual?

Why were the police there? I doubt they just decided to pick on some old drunk guy. Too much paper work involved to arrest with an old guy having a few drinks and just being annoying.

I didn't expect you to explain this particular event I witnessed. I was hoping that because of your past involvement as law enforcement on the grounds, you could provide us with information on the preparatory sessions you would have been a part of with EAA officials and/or senior police with respect to agreed upon procedures and protocols pertaining to actions to be taken in the face of possible public law breaking. How much discretion did you have?