Good first build airplane?

[Whallon.jesse]

Hello,

I've been reading and dreaming for years about building and flying my own plane but have always been thrown by the cost. I think I was spoiled early on when I got to ride in my friends RV-8 and have wanted one ever since! I simply don't have the time or resources for such a project and need something a little more reasonable. The goal for my undertaking a kit build plane is half educational, half recreational. I really want to understand the ins and outs of what makes a plane fly and fly well, the fact that I can get a real flying machine to go hop around in the sky is a real bonus. I was hoping the community could help me zero in on some good airplanes maybe I'm not thinking of, I'll list my requirements and specifications below.

Must have - Center-line seating. Either mid wing/low wing design or high wing not positioned directly over pilot. Some aerobatic ability, +6/-4 would be ideal.
Would like - Ability to be moved on a trailer, folding wings/removable wings. Decent forward visibility. Usable in IAC Primary/Sportsman. Welding of structures complete and shipped as a whole.
Don't care - Baggage room, avionics, quick build options.

Budget: 23,000 - 40,000
Build Location - My apartment!
Time line - 2 - 2.5 Years

The only planes that I see which fit are the Rans s9 Chaos and the Sonerai.

[Kyle Boatright]

A good scrounger would be able to build an RV-4 with that budget. Find an abandoned kit, a used engine, etc...

[Bill]

If you're happy with a single seat, a Onex would fit your budget easily, is aerobatic to +6/-4, and has folding wings for ease in storage and/or transport.

[zaitcev]

I think Onex too. The reason is, and this is absolutely not a dig at Randy Schlitter, Onex is going to have a better manual than S9 due to the numbers on the market and how the feedback from builders is re-incorporated. Purely IMHO, of course.

[cluttonfred]

Point of order...by "centerline seating" I am going to assume that you meant two seats in tandem, otherwise you'd have just said that you wanted a single seater.

For economical speed with aerobatic capability it's hard to beat a Sonerai II. I know you said you wanted a pre-welded fuselage but I still wouldn't rule it out. Steve Bennett might be able to put you in touch with someone who could make one for you, or you could find a local shop to take it on. Even if you were to cut the tubing yourself, tack weld it and then have a pro finish it up for you, it's still very doable. Any of those options would likely come in cheaper (and the latter a lot cheaper) than a full kit in a box.

This would help keep you at the low end of your price range so you could spend the money for a great engine properly modified for aerobatics.

http://www.greatplainsas.com/dsiekmann2.jpeg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Sonerai_2_Frame.jpg/640px-Sonerai_2_Frame.jpg

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Great topic but tell us a bit more about you? Have you taken or started lessons? If taken what airplanes do you have time in? Why tandem seating? Why mid or low wing? Help us focus in on where you are at and why you are aiming in the listed direction.
You can build an RV-12 EAB with a Viking Engine ( or refirbed conventional one) right at your $40,000. Resale value would be good and plenty of support. wings come off very easily. Only negative is the side by seating - which many prefer.
Jim

A closer look at the RV-12 in EAB stripes with a 13,000 engine is right at 40K. But to really help this member we need to know more about his aspirations. Otherwise we just offer our dream planes against his dream plane and not offering a reality check. Many dream of aerobatic flight but few have stomach or disposition for the rigors of competition. The OP has yet to offer us his level of mastery so we can offer a best fit.

[Jeff Point]

You can build an RV-12 EAB with a Viking Engine ( or refirbed conventional one) right at your $40,000. Resale value would be good

I think this is misleading. Resale value for the Van's line is good, probably the best in the industry, with a proper engine. Alternative engine RVs typically sell for a small percent of what a conventional engine equipped model would sell for, all else being equal. This is doubly true for those alternative engine companies with poor reputations.

[Kyle Boatright]

Great topic but tell us a bit more about you? Have you taken or started lessons? If taken what airplanes do you have time in? Why tandem seating? Why mid or low wing? Help us focus in on where you are at and why you are aiming in the listed direction.
You can build an RV-12 EAB with a Viking Engine ( or refirbed conventional one) right at your $40,000. Resale value would be good and plenty of support. wings come off very easily. Only negative is the side by seating - which many prefer.
Jim

The RV-12 kit alone (no engine) is right at $40k. That one's probably out.

[ssmdive]

You could look at the s9 Chaos and s10 Sakota.

The s10 can take two people side by side, or fly single seat in the middle. I have not flown either, but people say the s9 is quite the plane.

If I were looking to build something…. I'd build a D107 One Design.

Must have:
Center-line seating - Done

Either mid wing/low wing design or high wing not positioned directly over pilot - Mid wing

Some aerobatic ability, +6/-4 would be ideal - +10/-10

Would like:
Ability to be moved on a trailer - No clue

folding wings/removable wings - No clue

Decent forward visibility - Not bad, but I fly a Pitts so anything is an upgrade

Usable in IAC Primary/Sportsman - Will do Primary/Sportsman/Int/Advanced

Welding of structures complete and shipped as a whole - Not available, but you can find kits that have been started all the time.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/kitspages/onedesign.php

http://dr107.net/Articles/About_the_DR-107/about_dr-107.htm

And a flight report
http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepOneDesign.html

[deej]

Three aircraft I haven't seen mentioned yet that seem to fit your listed specs are:
Thatcher CX4 (single seater) and CX5 (two seats in tandem) - found at http://www.thatchercx4.com/
Panther - found at http://flywithspa.com/

All three have center line seating and folding wing options, and can easily be built in your price range. Some have claimed CX4 builds for $15k.

[Whallon.jesse]

"Great topic but tell us a bit more about you? Have you taken or started lessons"? - If you mean flying lessons, then yes I have my private with tail wheel and high power endorsement.

"If taken what airplanes do you have time in"? - Most of my time is in a C-172, Piper Warrior 2. I have logged about 10 hours in various aerobatic planes including an Acrosport 2, T-34, Extra 300 and Pitts s2c. Total time is about 75, yes I know not a lot but I've yet to have an instructor tell me I was incapable of learning to mastering any of the planes I've flown.

"Why tandem seating? Why mid or low wing? Help us focus in on where you are at and why you are aiming in the listed direction". - I should have said single seat, not center line as a requirement. Single seats are cheaper to operate (less weight, less engine required) As for the wing, I really hated flying in the Cessna specifically because I could not see very well when turning. As soon as I got in another plane and was able to see clearly in a turn I've never gone back. Just preference I guess.


You can build an RV-12 EAB with a Viking Engine ( or refirbed conventional one) right at your $40,000. Resale value would be good and plenty of support. wings come off very easily. Only negative is the side by seating - which many prefer.
Jim



The top end of my budget is really the absolute max I would be willing to spend in all circumstances. Basically if I was 5k short of completion i would be willing to go UP TO that to finish.

[Whallon.jesse]

Two other considerations I forgot to mention is my location and build time line. I'm living in my apartment so anything with welding is out, I would need to hire someone or have a pre-welded fuselage shipped. Next is noise but I've built a dresser and a office table, pre warned the neighbors before I started hammering away and had no complaints about noise so I should, be ok if I maximize the use of hand tools. Build time estimations should be about 500 hours or basically be capable of finishing the project in 2 years. The one good thing about having the project in my living room is there is no way I can forget to work on it!

[cluttonfred]

OK, now we're getting somewhere! ;-) Why not an all-wood aerobatic single-seater?

Jurca Tempete

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6O7f3KHtOZI/TtonbRCF7QI/AAAAAAABRas/_dz9L5FCjLg/s1600/Tempete-bia.jpg

http://www.carairo.com/gallery/albums/Breighton_12th_June_2011/G_AYTV_1.jpg

http://www.marcel-jurca.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=207&lang=en

[Floatsflyer]

Two other considerations I forgot to mention is my location and build time line. I'm living in my apartment so anything with welding is out, I would need to hire someone or have a pre-welded fuselage shipped. Next is noise but I've built a dresser and a office table, pre warned the neighbors before I started hammering away and had no complaints about noise so I should, be ok if I maximize the use of hand tools. Build time estimations should be about 500 hours or basically be capable of finishing the project in 2 years.

I'm a logical, reasoned kinda guy. I'm thinking welding, pre-welded, noise, tools and build time would be the least of your concerns.

So s'plain this to me Lucy. How are you going to get a pre-welded fuselage into an apartment in an apartment building and how are you going to exit same with a fully finished airframe??? Curious minds want to know.

[belgianbuzzer]

OK, so you work out of an apartment: that leaves out larger airplanes; even an RV-12 might have wings and fuselage too big to handle. You will know.
You want to build it in about 500 hrs? That leaves out plans-built airplanes; I'd say it leaves out ALL homebuilts: I do not know of any kit plane that can be built in 500 hrs.
You want some aerobatic capability: that leaves out the RV-12 and many other.
The Onex was mentioned: I'm building one, in my basement. Size-wise it won't get smaller than this: I can built ~75-80% in my small basement; ultimately the thing has to be assembled and that needs space.
However: I find the Onex pretty complicated and demanding to build. OK, I'm one of the early buyers and boy, the amount of mistakes on the 76 sheets of plans is tremendous. Parts that don't fit, wrongly delivered ones,.... the list goes on. You will do as many hours head scratching as building. I estimate to need about 1500 hrs to finish it; I have already 900 hrs into it sans the plan study hours. In all honesty I must say that I saw more recent kits which appear to have some corrected plans and parts.
The Onex has no luggage space (design it yourself up to 10 lbs.).
The Onex is not a X-country ship (not enough range)
The Onex cannot be left outside: rain water will come in everywhere.
The Onex "kit" is far from complete: you need to buy all hardware separately, as well as many desirable extra's, such as larger wheels for grass operations, a cabin heater, vents, avionics and so on. So its completed price tag goes up rapidly. But it should be possible to have the flyable single-seater for just under $40k, but you must assemble your own Aerovee engine (another daunting task with parts that do not always fit)
It can be built, mostly, with little noise (quiet compressor, no welding,....), but you do need to drill, file, bandsaw,.... I'm afraid your neighbours in the end will complain.

For your budget, time, space and noise requirements/wishes: don't build: get a ready homebuilt second hand.

[ChallengerLarry]

I doubt you'll find a perfect match for what you're looking for so you'll have to decide which features are the most important.
With that in mind I would suggest you look at the Quad City Challengers, specifically the XL-65.
It seats two with centerline seating. It's a high wing but the front of the wing is behind the pilot.
The aerobatics would be a weak point. It's rated at +6/-3. The wings are removable but not trivially.
The visibility is fabulous! It has a pusher prop allowing the dash to be fairly low and the wing is behind you. About the only way to get better visibility is with a Breezy or a helicopter.
The high thrust line takes a bit getting used to but that can easily be solved with a good instructor.
It has tube and fabric construction. The fuselage comes completely assembled. I had mine up on wheels in a few hours.
The cost is quite good - about 35K including the engine and simple instruments.
You will need a compressor and a rivet puller. It has lots of rivets. I didn't want to deal with dope and paint so I went with Oratex cloth - glue, shrink, fly.
The factory estimates 300 hours build time. Mine looks like it will take 300-400 (I might be a bit optimistic).
The older Challengers were basically overgrown ultra-lights but that's no longer true. I'm putting a heater in mine and plan to fly all winter long.
http://www.quadcitychallenger.com/
http://www.challenger.ca/

[ssmdive]

The Challengers are great. I had one and it was fun. It is rated for +6, but that is MAX "G" and not like every other plane is rated. +6 max is about 4G based on normal planes.

So Challengers will not meet your acro and IAC desires. But they are fun. I sold mine to get a Citabria so I could do acro.

Must have - Center-line seating - Got it.

Either mid wing/low wing design or high wing not positioned directly over pilot - GREAT visibility. It is a high wing, but it is pretty far aft.

Some aerobatic ability, +6/-4 would be ideal - Nope. Does not mean it is not fun, but no loops, rolls, and I have been told not to spin them, but I know people that have done it.


Would like - Ability to be moved on a trailer, folding wings/removable wings. - Not really, you can take the wings off, but it is not easy.

Decent forward visibility - Fantastic

Usable in IAC Primary/Sportsman - Nope, not a chance

Welding of structures complete and shipped as a whole - Fuse is complete, wings are not difficult to build. You could build the wings in an apartment.

Don't care - Baggage room, avionics, quick build options - Builds quick, avionics is based on what YOU want t put in. You can have baggage room, but mine had none unless I didn't have a PAX.

Budget: 23,000 - 40,000: Doable
Build Location - My apartment! - Might be doable.
Time line - 2 - 2.5 Years- Doable.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X3JGwMLJ3w&list=TL_obLZjM_w6c&index=3

[Frank Giger]

If it wasn't for the aerobatic part, I'd of recommended any of the aircraft Airdrome Airplanes puts out - tube and gusset construction using pulled rivets.

Price is at the lower end of your scale, and one could build it in an apartment without seriously pissing off the neighbors all of the time. Build times are even in line. And, if one is smart they take advantage of the builder's assist, where one learns everything one needs to know about building such an aircraft, and in a few days can come away with the fuselage complete and on gear.

But they're strictly utility aircraft - no intentional spinning, no loops, no rolls, no errors.

http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com

Trust me - as a first time builder with no experience they're very doable!

[planecrazzzy]

Since the subject got down to earth...
Kolb over Challenger any day of the week...
Semi aerobatic... Have a BRS
Folding wings
Tandem seating ( FSII )

It is "Classed" as a High Performance Light Aircraft.

Or the Firefly Ultra lite...

These Fly like Planes... Not draggy Ultralights.

Going to Fly-ins with other similar aircraft...

I noticed the Kolb Firestar II was Faster...

But also... I could slow fly with the best of them
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Gotta Fly...
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And with minimum tools... COULD be built in an Apt.
I built mine in a Basement...http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4414&stc=1http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4415&stc=1http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4416&stc=1http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4417&stc=1

[ssmdive]

Since the subject got down to earth... Kolb over Challenger any day of the week... Ford vs Chevy.... I have flown both and much prefer the Challenger. But for 40K you can buy many flying planes that you could not afford to build. 40K with get you an RV4 with a 0-320. I doubt you could build one for that (I didn't think I could). My buddy bought a Phantom kit from an estate with a 503 for under 4K. He had the engine rebuilt and had less than 7K in it. But while some claim it can do acro, you are not going to compete in it. And you can buy a flying Pitts S1 for 25K-40K pretty much all day long. This one is pretty nice and only 25K http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_953711_Pitts+S-1C.html This one is supposedly very nice http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_887095_Pitts+S1C+IO-360+195HP+SMOH%3A+7.html This one is 40K but looks nice with a lowish time engine (200 hours). http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_920609_1994+Pitts+S-1S+Experimental.html And kits partially started or needing a rebuild http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_970613_1972+Pitts+Special+S1-C.html

[planecrazzzy]

We're also talking "First" build.... Hmmm How many people finish it...

Not many... a LOT of planes are finished by the 2nd or THIRD owner...

It might be best to come down to earth first...

I mean... The guy is making it hard on himself with the Apartment thing...

Buy a Hanger and live in that....?

Sounds like a Failed build already...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
.
What ever he builds... He better pick a plane with a support group...

He's already needing to be spoon fed on WHAT to build...

Does that sound like a good foundation ?

Too many people fall in love with the IDEA of building a plane...

Flash in the pan... and then things get Dusty.... and sold CHEAP
.
Gotta Fly...
.
,
Buttercup Building Log...( Very Detailed )

http://www.wingsforum.com/viewforum.php?f=320
.

.http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4418&stc=1http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4419&stc=1http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4420&stc=1

[ssmdive]

Yep. which is why I also directed him to built aircraft for sale.

I was like him. I had plans to build an RV4 while I had my flying Challenger 2 CWS. Then I started hanging out with builders and was told the average build time of an RV is about 7 years. Then I started pricing the kits and components and found that I could buy flying examples for less than I could build them.

So 7 years and more money? I bought a Citabria and then a Pitts.

Still think about building a One Design…. But most likely never will.

[planecrazzzy]

At this stage... If you decide to build one... You success increases... First... Your Flying already...

So you have a SOLID Idea on what you want.... Obviously... You know about Hanger fee...

and have SPACE for a project... and a Big plus for you... You'll SAVE money by doing your own Maintenance and Annuals ...
.
.
I'm not trying to discourage the other guy from building...

Just trying to tell him to be HONEST with himself before he puts money into a project...

Projects that are NOT completed only bring in about HALF the money you put in it...

Less , if your craftsmanship isn't quite there...
.
.
And sometimes , if the craftsmanship isn't there... It's a STATIC DISPLAY...
.
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Gotta Fly...
.
.

[Bob Dingley]

This is a great thread. For what its worth, I nominate the Sonerai. There is another factor that no one has mentioned:

The ladies.


The first time you uncork a jug of glue, solvent, paint, etc in that apartment will be a test of a relationship. The real moment of truth, however will be when you load up your lady for their first flight. As a group they prefer sitting next to you. They do not like tandem seating. I have been waiting for the more experienced forum members to bring this up. They are likely too tactful.

But what do I know?


Bob

[cluttonfred]

There are LOTS of side-by-side possibilities, but since the OP specified "centerline seating" which was actually clarified later in the thread to mean a single-seater, that's where we went with the thread. With that in mind, the Sonerai I (with the fuselage welding contracted out) is an obvious choice but there are actually quite a few wood-and-fabric designs that would work, like the Taylor Titch and Corby Starlet.

[planecrazzzy]

I've found the PERFECT tandem Aerobatic plane to build in your Apartment...
The class is called "Radio Control".... R/C for short...
Some times an Apartment is too small for this hobby...
But most of the time it's manageable...
As long as you keep it contained from spreading to the whole Apt...
The Girlfriend of Wife will not like that...

Then... Continue "Dreaming" about building a REAL plane....
But think about the things it takes to build it...
an AREA to build is key...
Can't afford a house ? How are you going to STORE a plane... Hanger or Garage cost will make an Apt living expensive...
.
Gotta Fly...
.
.


Two other considerations I forgot to mention is my location and build time line. I'm living in my apartment so anything with welding is out, I would need to hire someone or have a pre-welded fuselage shipped. Next is noise but I've built a dresser and a office table, pre warned the neighbors before I started hammering away and had no complaints about noise so I should, be ok if I maximize the use of hand tools. Build time estimations should be about 500 hours or basically be capable of finishing the project in 2 years. The one good thing about having the project in my living room is there is no way I can forget to work on it!

[skyking135]

I like deej's response. I'm building a Thatcher CX4 and have looked into the Panther. I've partially built a Vans RV-9A and a Sonex. Sold both before completion for the very financial reasons you cited in your post. The RV-9A is not approved for aerobatics but the Sonex is. Sonex is a very small aircraft and can be built for around $25k. The Panther looks like an awesome aircraft. The CX4 is not aerobatic but the Panther certainly is. Let us know what you decide and best of luck.

[planecrazzzy]

So... I guess the real question would be... would you build it in an apartment ?



I like deej's response. I'm building a Thatcher CX4 and have looked into the Panther. I've partially built a Vans RV-9A and a Sonex. Sold both before completion for the very financial reasons you cited in your post. The RV-9A is not approved for aerobatics but the Sonex is. Sonex is a very small aircraft and can be built for around $25k. The Panther looks like an awesome aircraft. The CX4 is not aerobatic but the Panther certainly is. Let us know what you decide and best of luck.

[deej]

So... I guess the real question would be... would you build it in an apartment ?

From a physical perspective, I think it is possible to build most of the CX4 in an apt. It is a fairly small aircraft, and the wings are designed for easy removal.

From a practical perspective, I think you would drive your neighbors crazy with the noise. Cutting aluminum, drilling holes, and installing pop rivets are all somewhat noisy, and easily heard through apt walls.

A one car garage should be possible, or even a storage unit, if anything is available nearby the apt. I'd use the apt for storage of parts, and the garage or storage unit for actual construction. If you were really motivated, you could try to build inside a fully enclosed trailer in the parking lot, which would also give you something to haul the aircraft in when you were finished.

Another option might be to rent the corner of someone's hangar. If the owner of the hangar had a high wing aircraft, you might even be able to rent a section of a T-hangar to build.

-Dj

[JFSpain]

I would add my vote for Onex. You state that you are building in an apartment, so you must have neighbors in close proximity. Onex uses pop rivets, so building it would generate much less noise than an RV with its driven rivets. No toxic fumes from composite construction is a plus. No sawdust from a wooden design also a plus.

[Lars Gleitsmann]

Regarding building in Living Quarters,
have a look at this video by a local TV station;
https://youtu.be/7rTI2tj2WWk
Best Regards from Alaska.

[griffin800]

Hello,

I've been reading and dreaming for years about building and flying my own plane but have always been thrown by the cost. I think I was spoiled early on when I got to ride in my friends RV-8 and have wanted one ever since! I simply don't have the time or resources for such a project and need something a little more reasonable. The goal for my undertaking a kit build plane is half educational, half recreational. I really want to understand the ins and outs of what makes a plane fly and fly well, the fact that I can get a real flying machine to go hop around in the sky is a real bonus. I was hoping the community could help me zero in on some good airplanes maybe I'm not thinking of, I'll list my requirements and specifications below.

Must have - Center-line seating. Either mid wing/low wing design or high wing not positioned directly over pilot. Some aerobatic ability, +6/-4 would be ideal.
Would like - Ability to be moved on a trailer, folding wings/removable wings. Decent forward visibility. Usable in IAC Primary/Sportsman. Welding of structures complete and shipped as a whole.
Don't care - Baggage room, avionics, quick build options.

Budget: 23,000 - 40,000
Build Location - My apartment!
Time line - 2 - 2.5 Years

The only planes that I see which fit are the Rans s9 Chaos and the Sonerai.

From direct experience a long time ago, make sure your landlord is ok with this project. Friend had to move an incomplete project out of his apartment after the landlord inspected the place and evicted him. Some incomplete projects are more difficult to move than others. No point in starting a project like this then having to scrap it part way though.

Bill H.

[griffin800]

Hello,

I've been reading and dreaming for years about building and flying my own plane but have always been thrown by the cost. I think I was spoiled early on when I got to ride in my friends RV-8 and have wanted one ever since! I simply don't have the time or resources for such a project and need something a little more reasonable. The goal for my undertaking a kit build plane is half educational, half recreational. I really want to understand the ins and outs of what makes a plane fly and fly well, the fact that I can get a real flying machine to go hop around in the sky is a real bonus. I was hoping the community could help me zero in on some good airplanes maybe I'm not thinking of, I'll list my requirements and specifications below.

Must have - Center-line seating. Either mid wing/low wing design or high wing not positioned directly over pilot. Some aerobatic ability, +6/-4 would be ideal.
Would like - Ability to be moved on a trailer, folding wings/removable wings. Decent forward visibility. Usable in IAC Primary/Sportsman. Welding of structures complete and shipped as a whole.
Don't care - Baggage room, avionics, quick build options.

Budget: 23,000 - 40,000
Build Location - My apartment!
Time line - 2 - 2.5 Years

The only planes that I see which fit are the Rans s9 Chaos and the Sonerai.

Wag-aero does make a near perfect replica J3 cub kit and offers a fully welded fuselage.

https://www.wagaero.com/wag-aero-kit-airplanes/sport-trainer.html

Bill H.

[cluttonfred]

http://www.morganaeroworks.com.au/images/header/header-diamondmk3.jpg

You might want to check out the Morgan Aeroworks designs from Australia. It's a well-established company not well known outside Australia producing straightforward fabric-covered, pop-riveted aluminum tubing designs with premolded fiberglass wing ribs, cowlings, fairings, etc. Their Super Diamond four-stroke single-seater can take many engines in the 60-80 hp range and they have a new Super Diamond Twister model coming out that is approved for aerobatics. The U.S. dollar is pretty strong against the Australian dollar these days so the complete kits less motor, instruments, paint and upholstery run about $14-18k for the single-seater though I don't know what shipping or import duties would run. Here is one of their two-seaters uncovered so you can see the construction method.

http://www.mikerichardson.net.au/images/shared/photos/major/cheetah5l.png