Golf Carts at Airventure

[mmorrison123]

I love Airventure. There is nothing like it. I go every year. The EAA and volunteers do an amazing job on this massive event and I'm very grateful to all involved. But, there are always things that could be improved upon. One of these is the use of golf carts for touring the grounds. I understand the Gators and such are needed by some of the vendors to restock booths etc. But for the great majority of us shuffling about on foot, taking in all that Airventure has to offer, dodging golf carts zipping through the grounds becomes a bit annoying, and can be dangerous. I've seen golf carts cruising the isles of the Aeromart, and parked in front of people trying to watch the air show or concerts. I'm sure that these carts are very convenient but we clearly can't all drive around in them. That being said I would really like to see them limited to only those needed for operations. Unfortunately, the EAA has again decided to auction off the use of 2 carts for personal cruising through the crowd at Airventure. Now 2 more carts will not make any noticeable difference, but it sends the wrong message, just like the fenced off "special" seating areas at air show center did. I think this is a poor decision and does not reflect on the way I would like to see things go at the worlds greatest aviation event.

Any thoughts on the subject?

Malcolm

[kwingram]

I too thought it was a rather poor idea. 2014 was my 1st trip and all of the carts, gators etc certainly make it feel like your the one doing something unusual by getting in the way with your slow walking, it should be the other way around. even more surprising since many of the negative comments that are aired on this forum and elsewhere involve this problem.
maybe they will auction some special passes for unlicensed youth to drive unlicensed vehichles in camp too....rules, rules, we don't need no stinking rules!

[skyfixer8]

Just like the fenced off "special" seating areas at air show center did. I think this is a poor decision and does not reflect on the way I would like to see things go at the worlds greatest aviation event.

Any thoughts on the subject?

Malcolm[/QUOTE]

[skyfixer8]

I hit the wrong button and didn t get my comment in with the above quote. Not too computer savy. Anyway, regarding the fenced off area for the "VIP's, if you ever got the chance to look into that area, you would find that most of them are not watching the show. Teens running around or playing games on I pads. also, golf carts and gators are a major problem there that no one in charge seems to want to address.

[FlyingRon]

Hey, you want special seating... we've got a deal for you down in vintage. You can sit right off airshow center (and in fact, the T-birds show center was actually down in our area NOT where the comm building/announcers stand is). You get all the water and gatorade you want, free mystery meat sandwiches (alas budget cuts have ended the tootsie rolls that were smushed into the wonderbread) and other snacks. You sit ten feet in front of the crowd line and all you have to do is make sure nobody else crosses over the line. :)

[skyfixer8]

I already have the best seat in the house, on a John Deere tractor pulling tired people around. :D

[keen9]

I've written almost the exact comment in past years. Apparently cash is more important than safety. Got to see a minor golf cart vs tram crash during the airshow last year. Very fortunate it was minor . . .

[FlyingRon]

It's not as bad as it has been in the past. Years ago they let just about every vendor have a vehicle pass and you had cars plowing through the busiest areas of the show. Now they even restrict a lot of the golf cart traffic from certain areas. Nice thing about the T-birds and the otherwise rediculous perimeter road is that they moved all the traffic during the T-bird show days back to the back fence and left Whitman drive completely free (at least in Vintage).

[BeagleOne]

That's ridiculous. Golf carts should only be used during the airshow hours by those with handicaps and permits to use the carts. Vendors etc. shouldn't be able to use them except during set-up and take-down, and not along the flightline or the road behind it during airshow hours.

[FlyingRon]

Just being a vendor isn't enough to get a cart. Most of the convention-style vendors (exhibit buildings and even the outside stuff) are expected to use GES to move freight (and yes it is time restricted).

Still there are a lot of logtistical stuff that needs to move around, and it's not stuff that can always be deferred during the airshow. Some of the biggest abuses are still the "VIP" traffic more than anything else. Just look at the number of carts parked around the high $$$ chalets (like the HAI one) and you'll see where some of the unnecessary traffic comes from.

I'll have to admit to driving a golf cart during the airshow, but I tend to only be where people aren't allowed to stand.

[mikw53]

Just being a vendor isn't enough to get a cart. Most of the convention-style vendors (exhibit buildings and even the outside stuff) are expected to use GES to move freight (and yes it is time restricted).

Still there are a lot of logtistical stuff that needs to move around, and it's not stuff that can always be deferred during the airshow. Some of the biggest abuses are still the "VIP" traffic more than anything else. Just look at the number of carts parked around the high $$$ chalets (like the HAI one) and you'll see where some of the unnecessary traffic comes from.

I'll have to admit to driving a golf cart during the airshow, but I tend to only be where people aren't allowed to stand.

The biggest irritant at Oshkosh year after year is the Golf carts.Vendors should only be allowed to restock once a day before anyone arrives in the morning and then again between 12pm and 1pm when there are more people sitting down to eat anyway.Other than vendors no one else should be allowed to drive one.Walk like the rest of us. Your not so important that you deserve to ride around terrifying the paying goers,or if you must get from point a to point be quicker than get bikes with noise makers when they move.
Way to many vehicles running around the grounds.Give us a break please!

[FlyingRon]

Bikes are forbidden on the grounds now. If you think golf carts are problematic, ....

[mikw53]

Bikes are forbidden on the grounds now. If you think golf carts are problematic, ....
I can see your point but I would suggest that being hit by a mustang bike will do nowhere near the damage of being hit by a silent golf cart at the speeds some of them scoot around..
Golf carts are dangerous in a crowd and should be severely restricted.
If they won't get rid of them at least put speed governors on them so that they can go no faster than a fast walk and for heavens sake common sense would tell them that they should at least make a noise loud enough to be heard 20 feet away.
They are my pet peeve and I have heard enough comments from others while there to know I am not alone.
Thanks for allowing me to rant.
Mike

[FlyingRon]

Nope, doesn't hurt to complain. I've certainly made my share of complaints and back before this board came about, there wasn't even a good forum (though I did find the one or two EAAers that actually knew what email was a few years back. Also there were always some key volunteers you could make complaints to. Some times it takes years for things to change, but the suggestions people made are out there.

Like I mentioned, the new "perimeter road" gives a good chance to try to move most of the traffic that doesn't need to be on whitman road out of the show area similar to the "cart free zones" thorugh the main exhibit area that have been in place for a while.

[Bill Greenwood]

It is not going to affect my Osh much if someone has a cart as long as they drive it safely. Seems like more jealousy than something real, though I have seen other same comments.
I actually had someone in a partially full cart offer us a lift and that is rare.

[stummers]

We bring a golf cart every year to camp Scholler and get the proper permits. We limit our use to outside of the Airventure gates. I enjoy the look of surprise and relief when we offer a ride to a weary walker.

[Jeff Point]

I think Bill is definitely on to something with the jealousy issue. Let me take it a step further. One of the big problems with the pedestrian/ vehicle interactions at Oshkosh is that, frankly, too many pedestrians are walking around with poor situational awareness. Oshkosh just lends itself to a lot of "ooh look at that!" moments, plus in this era too many are walking while looking down at their phones instead of around them. In my time as a volunteer I've driven literally thousands of miles inside the Oshkosh grounds in everything from a scooter to a pickup truck, so I've seen the other side of this. Many's the time I've been driving, at a safe speed paying close attention, only to have someone wander in front of me necessitating evasive action because they weren't paying attention. Some even give the stink eye or say something smart, mostly as a balm to their egos, I think.

The restricted vehicle zone around airshow center has absolutely cut down on the amount of vehicle traffic in that area, and anyone who says otherwise is just wrong. However, as a consequence, it has also forced more traffic to the periphery (it has to go somewhere) and increased vehicle/ pedestrian interaction in those areas. Hint- if you are walking on asphalt with lines painted on it, it's a road and you might want to look around before you wander across it.

[Kyle Boatright]

Hint- if you are walking on asphalt with lines painted on it, it's a road and you might want to look around before you wander across it.

One thing I noticed in 2014 was that the lines delineating the walkways on the main N/S roads along the flightline were really faded. Unless you'd been there before, you might not have been aware of dedicated walk lanes for pedestrians. There sure were a lot of people walking out in the middle of the road...

[mmorrison123]

I realize that some cart/gator traffic is necessary, and I too have been the grateful recipient of a random act of kindness by a cart driver offering me a ride. Just goes to show that Airventure people are the best. However the carts do get (in my opinion) mis-used. As I mentioned at the start of this thread they get used for personal mobile seats to view events from and to shop in. The rest of us have to move somewhere else because we can;t see over the cat roofs, or maneuver out of the rows of the flymart so the cart with shoppers can get through. The main N/S road is certainly an area of congestion where us pedestrians, as well as the work vehicles all try to get through. Yes, we often are oblivious to traffic while we gawk at the airplanes, but isn't that what we come to Airventure to do? I don't think the issue is a matter of jealousy. If the EAA wanted to auction off seats in the Aviators Club (or whatever the special seating area is called) I would not have a problem. But promoting personal use vehicle traffic, something that seems to already be an issue, is something that really rubs me the wrong way. As I said before, the EAA and volunteers are top notch. I just wish that they would reconsider auctioning off the use of golf carts for personal use during the show.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

I have use of a golf cart during air adventure.
Have never had a problem (except once)
BUT we never go to show center from 8AM to 7PM and we never get close to Wittman road road during the airshow--just too many people. Plenty of ways to get around using the new perimeter roads
Several years back I was taking a Mag over to Cy's emergency aircraft repair. Saw this women walking right for me. I stopped, she walked right into my vehicle. Her husband started reading me the riot act when several people told him I was stopped at the time. You should never drive faster than a brisk walk and you should stay on the cart paths !
we always pick up old guys (like us) Or if you have a hot looking wife of girlfriend <g>
For safety--I feel that Wittman road should be blocked off to all traffic during the air show ( except for the trams)
speaking of trams---to make them run faster and to get them out of pedestrian traffic---they should make a loop from the north 40.
In the AM should start at the north 40 and go south on Knapp street to the tram terminal area north of building A, then go west up Waukau Ave to the new perimeter road ( east of the fence) along Foundation road. Take it back to the north 40--almost no traffic and very few if any walkers
In the PM reverse flow
This does two things--
one--cuts down on traffic on Knapp street ( lots of walkers on that street)
Two--gets the trams back to the north 40 faster to drop off people or pick them up ( you could put in a new stop where the perimeter road ends at the new shower building in the north 40)
You could also drop off people going to the parking lots west of foundation road
See some of you in May for the first work weekend ( nothing more fun than flying almost 2000 miles to put up signs and move dirt around for the EAA)

[mikw53]

I think Bill is definitely on to something with the jealousy issue. Let me take it a step further. One of the big problems with the pedestrian/ vehicle interactions at Oshkosh is that, frankly, too many pedestrians are walking around with poor situational awareness. Oshkosh just lends itself to a lot of "ooh look at that!" moments, plus in this era too many are walking while looking down at their phones instead of around them. In my time as a volunteer I've driven literally thousands of miles inside the Oshkosh grounds in everything from a scooter to a pickup truck, so I've seen the other side of this. Many's the time I've been driving, at a safe speed paying close attention, only to have someone wander in front of me necessitating evasive action because they weren't paying attention. Some even give the stink eye or say something smart, mostly as a balm to their egos, I think.

The restricted vehicle zone around airshow center has absolutely cut down on the amount of vehicle traffic in that area, and anyone who says otherwise is just wrong. However, as a consequence, it has also forced more traffic to the periphery (it has to go somewhere) and increased vehicle/ pedestrian interaction in those areas. Hint- if you are walking on asphalt with lines painted on it, it's a road and you might want to look around before you wander across it.

One Dr Phil comment and I was willing to let it go .That either of you would actually believe that a safety issue has anything to do with jealousy is beyond common sense.That one of you would blame the pedestrians is even more unbelievable.It's an airshow!!!!! people are and will be completely distracted as it should be .It means it's a great show.That is exactly why they should be banned except for vendors restocking and emergencies.Someone looking at there phone should not have to worry about getting hit by a golf cart.
Once again I and others who complain about golf carts are not envious.Why in Gods name would I want to be continually getting in and out of a cart to stop and see everything I want to see(which would be hundreds of times )?
We are not jealous just fearful so stop grabbing at straws and deal with the real issue,SAFTEY.
Good Grief.
Write what you will I am through with this issue.

[Rod Schneider]

Well, I'm certainly NOT jealous!!! I agree that there are far too many golf carts moving through crowds of people. Last year I came within inches of being run over by a lady who was sitting on a golf cart talking to someone when I walked by. She was stopped and had been for the 15 seconds or so that I saw the cart. Just as I began to pass in front of her, she started moving and was still turned around talking to someone, never saw me. I jumped back as she passed by, nearly running over my toes, we were that close. This happened in front of the EAA Wearhouse and the area was packed with people. It's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt. Maybe the EAA will listen when that happens.

[BeagleOne]

Jealousy? Oh, please, spare me. I've been walking the grounds of the fly-in since it first arrived in 1970 and I don't mind the walking, although I DO appreciate the trams and use them often during the week. But the influx of golf carts has gotten completely out of hand, especially along Wittman Road. Yes, I do realize that a paved surface with lines on it may be considered a road. I ALSO realize that Wittman Road is, and has been for decades, the main north-south route for PEDESTRIANS. You know, the jealous people who come to Oshkosh to see airplanes and spend a lot of money.

Auctioning off the use of a golf cart during the fly-in is ridiculous. I thought EAA was going back to its roots, and more power to that idea. But I can just imagine how entitled someone who's paid several thousand dollars to use a golf cart for the week is going to be.

It will be interesting to see what the golf cart advocates have to say when the inevitable happens and someone sues EAA after they've been seriously injured by some non-jealous person in an unnecessary golf cart.

[Bill Greenwood]

I have been to EAA for 3 decades, always had a good time, and can't imagine letting the fact that someone else has a golf cart spoil or define my week. Nor am I just hoping for a cart accident so I can point fingers.
Jealousy is a poor taskmaster.

I certainly do worry about safety at EAA, and there have been a number of fatal crashes there,and I lost some friends and almost lost some others.
Just never occured to me to worry about golf carts.
How many people total are killed in the U S by golf cart accidents off road, not on a street or highway? Probably more than that have been hit by props at Osh.

And if it is only safety that is a real concern, then why do you care if 2 of the many carts came from a member auction?

Should we make Bud Anderson walk?

[Mayhemxpc]

Rather than going down the path of name calling and questioning people's motives, may I suggest we go back to first things and define the problem?

The problem, as I understand it, is NOT golf carts. The problem is SOME of the people who are driving the golf carts. We have heard in this string some people who are aware of the impact of their driving on those who came to see the show. They sound responsible and situationally aware. They are not the problem, and certainly their golf carts are not the problem. If all golf cart drivers were like them this conversation would be much different. Unfortunately, not all drivers are like them. Are MOST golf cart drivers responsible users? I don't know. In my very unscientific sample of the ones I have seen, I would say yes, they are. Can the minority create a hazard for many and generate ill will even to those who drive responsibly? Yes, and we have seen a little of that here.

So the problem seems to be that some unknown number representing some unknown segment of the users of golf carts are using their carts in a way that is not in keeping with accepted use, is not in keeping with the high standards of friendliness typical of Oshkosh, and can present a hazard. What can we do about that? Ban them? Not likely. Tell them not to drive certain places? This has been done, with some, although not complete success (to include airshow center.)

It is a human factors problem and needs a human factors solution. It is a risk management issue and should be addressed as such. Risk treatment should include a be a risk management approach to the numbers of carts allowed (exposure and consequences), where they go, and how such authorizations are issued (including training) and enforced consequences.

We are pilots, we should be able to convince AirVenture management, who are also pilots, to apply a little risk management (which, of by the way includes communication) before deciding to auction off carts (increasing both exposure and possible impact.) Maybe they did. If so, can they tell us about it?

[mmorrison123]

Ah Chris, thanks for the voice of reason. I had the opportunity to meet many of the EAA staff last year. I was impressed with one and all. Perhaps one of them is listening and can chime in on the rules and plans, if any, to restrict carts from certain areas/times.

Malcolm

[BeagleOne]

No, of course we shouldn't "make Bud Anderson walk". Or anyone, well-known or not, who has a legitimate mobility issue, for that matter. What unnecessary snark, and not germane to the discussion.

Adding two more golf carts is a big deal not because of the number, although it DOES add two more unnecessary vehicles to the mix. It's a big deal because the people who buy their use probably aren't doing it because they have a mobility issue or any need for the cart. It's also a big deal because it shows that EAA management apparently doesn't think the increasing number of vehicles is a problem.

I don't let the presence of golf carts spoil or define my week. Speaking up about a safety issue that is getting worse, not better, and which could be easily solved is not the same as letting that issue spoil or define Oshkosh for me. And I'm certainly NOT hoping for a cart accident. Good grief.

[Frank Giger]

we always pick up old guys (like us) Or if you have a hot looking wife of girlfriend <g>

I'm an old guy with a hot looking wife. Looks like I ain't walking!

[Bill Greenwood]

"Beagle One" whoever you are hiding behind that screen name, you say the problem of number of vehicles is getting worse. Do you have any figures that show how many golf carts are in use now as opposed to perhaps 5 or 10 years ago? There may well be more, I haven't noticed that much, but then again I spend more of my convention at one end, but I do get all the way down south and up north at least once.

And, once again do you have any figures about golf cart accidents anywhere except on a road or street? If there are a lot of fatals from them anywhere, I am not aware of it, as a matter of fact I can't recall reading or knowing about even a single fatal golf cart accident. ATV 4 wheelers yes, but carts not that I know of.
And do you see any other potential dangers at EAA, such as perhaps airplane accidents that are fatal and have you lobbied to do anything to make them safer, or is your entire focus on golf carts?

I assume that when EAA gives out the golf carts they give some guidance on its usage, such as that pedestrians have the right of way and maybe a top speed limit, such as 10 mph. EAA should do this, and if someone is not following these rules then the cart should of course, be removed.

And I realize that I may be in the minority, that a number of people were burned up about the 2 chalets that you could pay extra and get in, and a lot probably feel that way about someone else having use of a golf cart, and if someone could figure a way to make the complaints about the chalets a safety? issue they probably would. Myself, I hope to enjoy the convention again this year, and not walk while staring at a cell phone, and don't expect to be hit by a golf cart.

Or you could retain a good personal injury lawyer, and try to walk in front of carts and hope to make enough money off the resulting action to live happily for a long time on>

[FlyingRon]

I assume that when EAA gives out the golf carts they give some guidance on its usage, such as that pedestrians have the right of way and maybe a top speed limit, such as 10 mph. EAA should do this, and if someone is not following these rules then the cart should of course, be removed.

I know of no such policy. The chairmen of the various groups get assigned carts. They issue them to their staff/volunteers. They set their own policy as to how they get used. Frankly, in the times I've driven them, I've not found they go tremendously fast even when the pedal is floored. Common sense says you have to yield to pedestrians. The only rigid enforcement is the NO CART ZONES in the central area from the West Ramp (Aeroshell Square or whoever is this year's sponsor) up through the exhibit areas with exception of the one crossing between the exhibit buildings.


Believe me it is BETTER than it used to be. I've been coming here since 1993. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

Frank. Will give your wife a ride in the golf cart. Would probably make you walk. BUT. Since Oklahoma kicked Alabamas a$$ last January. Would not want to kick a man when he's down ��
kevin from Oklahoma. Driving the golf cart for cover since I can't run

[Karen Kryzaniak]

The thread asked for a perspective from risk management(boy, that doesn’t happen very often! <g>), so Hal asked me to jump in here. Reading through the thread, there are a lot of good viewpoints from allsides. I’ve been in similar situations both on foot and in a cart. Most of the cart users are very considerate, but it only takes a few bad eggs to leave a rotten impression.

I’ll try to keep this somewhat concise. The vehicle/pedestrian mix is something we continually wrestle with because ofcompeting demands. The grounds, as they’ve grown, aren’t the best natural setting to separate vehicles and pedestrians. People want to walk in vehicle areas and drivers want to use walkways. We’ve even had experienced traffic engineers study the situation, but at a place such as AirVenture, it’s impossible to knock over just one domino. Some of the programs that have started in the past few years include:

·Restricted vehicle zone from 9 am-6 pm (Boeing Plaza, immediate surroundings, main exhibit hangars to main gate)

·Dedicated vehicle routes and walkways (often effective, but see above statement on cross use)

·“How’s My Driving” program (we really do want people to report when vehicle drivers are doing things they aren’t supposed to)

·Denying dozens of cart requests each year and prohibiting any privately-owned carts from the flightline area

We’d love to have a magic wand to go “poof” and create aperfect transit system that would flow beautifully and separately. It’s a workin continual progress, especially when human nature comes into play. My finalpoint is that we’re always open to good ideas. Some of the best concepts through the years have come from attendees, chairmen and volunteers. The best way to forward an idea is through the feedback@eaa.org (feedback@eaa.org)e-mail. The people running that mailbox ALWAYS make sure I get those…

Thanks again for the comments!

Karen Kryzaniak
EAA Risk management

[mmorrison123]

Karen, thanks for responding. It supports my statement that the EAA staff and volunteers are the best. I know that it is a difficult job managing all the traffic, wheeled and on foot.

In order for us to offer any "constructive" suggestions we probably need a better understanding of what the golf cart rule currently are. Can they go anywhere, anytime? if not what are the rules? Is parking in the way of other spectators to watch the airshow or a concert permitted? You point out that a vast majority of drivers are fine, and I agree that most are probably safe, friendly, and helpful, but if you could fill us in on the rules it would help us see if it's a procedure or a behavior issue. Then we would know whether to address it to the EAA or to the individual.

Thanks
Malcolm

[Mayhemxpc]

Karen,

I repeat Malcom's thank for the explanation. Although it would be good to know what the rules are as pedestrians, so that we can intelligently respond to the "How's my driving part," it is even more important that the cart drivers know, understand, and can apply those rules. In the Sport Aviation before last, Lane Wallace wrote of her experiences in volunteering, which included driving one of the shuttle tractors. She briefly mentioned the training required to do that. Is there any training required and authorization issued to golf cart drivers? (I hope so) What does that consist of?

[FlyingRon]

I will reiterate, carts aren't monolithic. The EAA parcels them out to the various groups operating on the show. There may be some official guidelines, but I guarantee you they don't make it down to the individual drivers universally. The best you get is "don't do nothing stupid." I certainly don't think you're going to get anything that says don't park in front of others. While I try to avoid parking a cart/scooter or standing in away that adversely affects other attendees, be advised that my duties do require me to be in front of the crowd line and I can't aways be out of everyone's line of sight.

Still, I've found that if someone parks in a really objectionable way (I saw a guy pull up in front of some disabled attendees who didn't really have the option to move or stand up to see over them), politely asking them to move out of the way generally works.

If you see any trully unsafe rather than just annoying activity, I've never had any issue with talking to either security or one of the higher ups (typically you can tell these people as they are carrying radios). Frankly, security is trained with dealing with people without getting emotionally involved, even when someone reports an unsafe activity to me and it is more than a "Please don't do that" to resolve it, I let security or the chairman handle it.

[psvinny]

I come to Airventure to wind down from 51 weeks of work so my goal is to relax, which I do. My only gripe about the golf carts is after the evening air shows. The carts, and there are a lot of them, down on the flight line for the air show. They could care less about the people walking in the path next to the theater in the woods heading to camp Scholler. It is like watching a pinball machine as they weave in and out trying to miss the bumpers(pedestrians).

[FlyingRon]

Yes, that road and time of day is particularly bad. Everybody wants to leave at once (either to go to Scholler or just to the parking lot bus areas). That would be another good place for a "NO CART" zone and send anybody who wants to go that way around the permieter road to the gate between the Theatre in the woods and Sally's. Let the carts fight it out with the vehicle traffic :)

[mmorrison123]

FlyingRon, you suggest "NO Cart" zones but also say drivers are simply told "don't do anything stupid". Would it be reasonable to insist on a little more instruction for drivers? And at the same time to ask for cart rules to be made available to the rest of us so we would know whether a cart driver is doing something inappropriate and we should address it with them?

Malcolm

[FlyingRon]

The no-cart areas are enforced by security (actual security staff at the entrances to the area) as well as signs.

We train our guys in Vintage, but it's rolled into the overall training about being safe around moving aircraft more than anything else (most of our people are on the 30 or so scooters we are assigned, the carts are primarily used to shuttle volunteers to the distant work assignments and to deliver provisions, primarily water and gatorade to our work areas and typically we shoot down the front side of the "crowd burn line" so we're not mixing with the public on those). However, at least hanging a laminated card with the rules on the vehicle (perhaps with a "hows my driving" number on the rear).

[Infidel]

The carts, go-carts, scooters, ATV's, UTV's, and dirt bikes in Camp Scholler is, a whole other problem.