Ragwings outside?

[DavidRoss]

I live in the DC area and would REALLY like to pick up a 2 hole biplane as a second airplane.
However, as anyone in the DC area will tell you, getting a hangar to put it in is simply not an option. Even if I had the opportunity to rent a hangar (2 to 3 year wait minimum) I don't have the $500 to $600 a month to pay for it.

I keep our 170 outside year round already but that's all metal.

I'm looking for advice/ideas on how to keep something like a Starduster/AcroSport/Skybolt outside in the weather year round.

My initial thought was to make/have made a custom set of covers for the whole plane to keep it relatively dry but in a way to let it breath.

Is anyone else doing this?

PS: Before the conversation swings: Yes, hangars are that expensive around here and No, I don't want some all metal airplane solution.

[WLIU]

Piper Cubs and other airplanes of that era were stored outside for decades. Typically, even with covers, water collects in the tail and the rudder post and the aft portion of the lower longerons rust out. You can look at the Univair and Wag Aero catalogs and find repair subassemblies for sale that are prewelded tail post and lower longeron stubs.

And you need to keep the drain holes in the wings as well as the fuselage belly clear so that minimal water collects. Any imperfectly sealed wood structure like wing ribs and spars will suffer from being wet regularly.

The sun's UV is the enemy of all aircraft fabric coverings. Expect less life and more maintenance.

So it is sort of a pay now or pay later situation. It seems stupid to make the same payments for a hangar as you make on the mortgage for your airplane, but it is often the smart option.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Mayhemxpc]

"DC area" is pretty big, depending on your definition. Manassas, right at the edge of the SFRA (but still inside) lists T-hangars as low as $325/month -- but you can go upscale for a $500/mo hangar if you want to. Culpepper is supposed to be less than that. $325 isn't cheap (ask my wife who manages our finances) but it gives me a place to know my plane is (relatively) safe and I can tinker around with it.

[DavidRoss]

I'm moving to Herndon, which puts me in range of Leesburg, sorta Manassas and a hike to anyplace else.
Does Manassas have any of those T-hangars available? Cuz every place I'v called (even over to Annapolis and Lee) nothing is available for any price.
All the airports I've called have a 2 year waiting list so price is beside the point.

I'm keep the 170 tied out at Freeway (W00) but that's a long drive from Herndon.

The tube rust could be mitigated with ACF-50 and you can get fairly creative with making covers.
I'm interested in hearing from anyone that actually keeps a wood wing open cockpit outside.

[L16 Pilot]

This is only my opinion but I would never leave an airplane outside in the weather (metal or not). The sun tends to rot the fabric, dull the paint and not to mention the chance of hail damage and wind damage. Also, I've rebuilt a number of tail draggers that have sat out in the rain and weather and almost all have the lower tail section rusted and/or repaired. One on a Champ was so bad I wondered how the tail stayed on. On the other hand, I don't leave my tractors or cars outside either. Equipment needs to protected from the elements and that's why the insurance companies offer a discount if your plane is in a hangar.

[DavidRoss]

Yeah, that's great advice. If only A. there was a hangar available and B. I could afford $500 a month to pay for it; life would be so much easier. But in the mean time if I was to listen to you, I wouldn't even own the plane I have now.

So, aside from all the wonderful aspects of owning an hangar (which I am well aware of)...

Does anyone have any REAL advice on keeping a wood wing airplane outside?

[lnuss]

In your opening post you said:


My initial thought was to make/have made a custom set of covers for the whole plane to keep it relatively dry but in a way to let it breath.

That's probably as good as it will get without hangaring. It will do OK out there, but as with all aircraft, maintenance will be more needed than for one kept inside, as you obviously already know.

[Louis]

Hangar space is hard to get here in Fairbanks also. There's plenty of Citabria's Aeronca's and other planes with wood spars parked outside here year round. I knew a guy who had a Starduster parked outside in Fairbanks....not a whole lot of open cockpits around here! You might want to look into mesh wing covers with spoilers sewn into them. If I was in your shoes I would not even think about the lack of a hangar preventing me from getting that plane.....life is short!

[L16 Pilot]

Sorry David. I didn't mean to sound that negative about your situation. It's just that as a mechanic I've seen so much machinery of types ruined or at least damaged by nasty weather and too much sun. I've even seen pictures of wings broken by excessive wet snow loads on top of the wings. Some sort of a wing mesh cover is probably your best bet along with a good canopy cover. Too bad there isn't some kind of a hail shed (roof without sides) around the area for your use. As I travel I see a number of airports with shelters of that type which the rent should be cheaper rather than an enclosed hangar. Good luck!

[martymayes]

Put your covers over the cockpit and make sure the entire airframe has adequate and properly installed drain paths. If any water gets inside the structure, it needs a path to get out - immediately.

It's been my experience that a lot of damage to ALL airplanes (metal & wood/tube/fabric) is caused by water getting into the structure and not having a path to exit. Simply flying more helps with that. That should be incentive to get out and fly the plane more often. A lot of complicated covers and seals protecting the plane while sitting out in the elements can be counter productive to flying. If it takes 2 hrs of work to fly for 30 min., guess what's going to happen?

I wouldn't let lack of a hangar stop me from getting a plane if that's what I wanted.

[Auburntsts]

For Manassas (KHEF), look into T-hangers of VA, http://www.vahangars.com/contact.htm (http://www.vahangars.com/contact.htm). That's who I rent from and they can tell you what's available. Also the Airport Authority rents hangars as well -- give'em a shout at 703-361-1882 and see if anything is open.

[Greg Wilson]

I would go with a good canopy/cockpit cover and just be certain that there are adequate drain holes and they are open. As Louis and Martyayes pointed out it is done, but more environmental damage is likely. Keep it dried out, fly it that sunny day after the rain and keep snow from building up deep on it. In the past when the flight school cubs and champs lived out doors they had cotton covering. The good thing about fabric that only lasts 5-6 years,(out doors), was that the whole structure was carefully checked and refinished at those intervals as well. Polyester with good finish may hold up just fine while corrosion or rot is happening unnoticed underneath.

[Bob H]

I don't have a solution different from others except that your plight makes me appreciate the lower cost of hangars in mtns of Calif at L35. My T-hangar runs $180/mo with power and we have a couple of vacancies and free coffee.

[PaulDow]

Could something like the Aero-Lift (http://www.armaerospace.com/) make sense for you? Maybe you could work out a deal to split a hangar rent with someone if the purchase of the lift isn't too expensive.

[Tommuller2000]

When I completed my RV a few years ago,I found a hanger for only $140 per month and figured extended paint life alone would pay for the hanger. The same hanger is now $195 per month and I'm working on a second airplane, a Zenith 750. I expect at least one of the airplanes is going to have to live outside in Maine weather. Neither are ragwings, but UV damage to plastic and plexi plus moisture to structuer, interior and avionics is the same. I'd rather have an airplane sitting outside than no airplane at all!

[Skyhook]

This is only my opinion but I would never leave an airplane outside in the weather (metal or not). The sun tends to rot the fabric, dull the paint and not to mention the chance of hail damage and wind damage. Also, I've rebuilt a number of tail draggers that have sat out in the rain and weather and almost all have the lower tail section rusted and/or repaired. One on a Champ was so bad I wondered how the tail stayed on. On the other hand, I don't leave my tractors or cars outside either. Equipment needs to protected from the elements and that's why the insurance companies offer a discount if your plane is in a hangar.

Excellent advice. I have owned six acft- both tube & fabric & all metal- and have found that exposure to the elements is detrimental, as L16 states. I also have many farm tractors & implements and nothing of value is stored outside. I had to store some things outside while starting up, but in every case I found there was a price associated with that.

[ssmdive]

Ever think about getting a partner to share costs with?

I have a Citabria and a Pitts. They both fit in the same hangar, but honestly the Citabria gets flown less. So for example if I could find a partner on the Citabria then the hangar rent would be reduced and the plane would fly more. If you have two planes, this might be an option.

Not that I am actually interested in a partner, but just using it as an example.

[DavidRoss]

Yeah, keeping an airplane outside means a little more upkeep and the paint needs waxed a little more often.
But, 81D has been outside for the last 62 years and she only has minimal corrosion in the expected areas and I've been ALL thru the plane.
I may not clean the tires with a toothbrush but she's a damn nice looking 170.

What Im hearing is to make sure the drain holes are done right, get a descent set of covers and fly it frequently.

Thanks!

[Infidel]

WV22, grass strip, great aviation community, hangar(s) available, and roughly an hours commute from DC/Leesburg area.