Nervous 1st-Time Airplane Buyer

[Tarfu43]

Hi all,

After 44 years of being an airplane nut, I'm within a few days of making an offer on an airplane (Cessna Cardinal). I earned my PPL when I was 20, but due to lifes issues (house/wife/kids), I dropped out of flying about 15 years ago. However, I now have my ducks in a row, will be taking my flight physical on Thursday, and will have to make a decision on purchasing the Cardinal. The owner is holding the a/c for me (if I want it) until I have my 3rd-class medical in-hand. All my life I've dreamed of owning my own airplane. However, I find myself getting more and more apprehensive as the day approaches that I have to tell the owner whether I want the airplane or not. Surprisingly to me, the reasons for my apprehension are not the airplane itself or the expense. When I was flying regularly back in my 20's, I knew I was a good pilot, and had no fear of flying or my abilities. But as the decision day approaches, instead of thinking about how great it would be to have my own plane, I keep thinking about all the negatives; Do I still have the chops to fly? Is it selfish of me to pursue a potentially risky hobby with a wife and two kids (8 and 11)? Will I feel confortable flying my family around? Will I use the plane enough to justify the purchase?, etc. I've got 180 hrs TT, but haven't flown as PIC in 15 years. I just feel if I don't check this issue off by bucket list, it will be one of my lifes greatest regrets. My family is all for it, I have the means and a lifelong desire to fly/own, but yet I'm nervous as hell to make the leap. Is this normal? Has anyone experienced similiar feelings?


Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[martymayes]

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I'm a part owner of a Cardinal (177B) and it's great! I'm guessing you have done your homework and are buying for a fair price based on condition and equipment...?? Also home you have done your homework on ownership and operating costs? Buying the plane is only part of it. I wouldn't worry about using it enough, if you use it at all, then it's worth it.

You might have a case of buyers remorse - most people do. Keep those thoughts positive!! Remember why you are doing this! Post pictures so we can admire and encourage! If you live close to MI maybe we can fly out and meet up for lunch one day!

Just a note about risk. One of the neat things about aviation is YOU as the pilot, you have a lot of control over risk. If you feel a flight is too risky, just don't go. Or land if you are in flight. It's much easier to manage the risk than many other popular other activities.

[Bob Meder]

Find yourself an instructor that will give you a tough, thorough flight review. Make sure they hold you to better than PTS standards. And go through the ENTIRE PTS. Ground reference maneuvers might seem pointless, but the goal is to teach (or in your case, remind you) how to divide attention close to the ground, i.e. "traffic pattern."

When both you and the instructor feel solid about it all, get the sign-off and go have fun, remembering to manage risk, as already mentioned.

[ssmdive]

Eh, nerves are normal. It is your bodies way of telling you that you might be screwing up ;).... That being said most times it is just your body's reaction to something that is not normal and your body telling you to pay attention to what you are doing.


I keep thinking about all the negatives
Stop doing that.


Do I still have the chops to fly?
Great question.... Why not get your medical and go get a BFR and then solo a rented plane before you buy one? The only way you will know if you still have the chops is to do it. Doing it with a rental is a great idea because it removes the pressure of "I own this thing, I better fly it". For what it is worth.... If you ever soloed a plane, you still have the chops, IMO.


Is it selfish of me to pursue a potentially risky hobby with a wife and two kids (8 and 11)?
Yes. But that does not mean it is a bad thing. It is also selfish to play in a baseball league, go bowling without them, and a host of other things. Instead of looking for the reasons that it is selfish, think of the ways it is great for your family. I wish my Dad had owned a plane when I was a kid.


Will I feel confortable flying my family around?
This one is easy.... Don't fly with them till you do. Me personally, I put a 10 hour minimum before I flew passengers in any of my new planes. So get the plane and fly it around till you are comfortable.


Will I use the plane enough to justify the purchase?
Most likely no. But that does not mean you still can't buy it. I have two planes and I own the one (Citabria) just to make my wife happy. I have to force myself to fly it instead of taking the hotrod (Pitts) out when I am at the airport. I have no reason to own it other than it makes the wife happy. Financially, it makes ZERO sense for me to own both; I could rent a two seat plane for the few hours my wife flies with me a year.

All that said, you will fly more if you own a plane than renting one. How many hours justify the expense of owning one? I figure about 50-100 hours a year to justify it. But all that said, I just want them and that alone justifies it to me.


I just feel if I don't check this issue off by bucket list, it will be one of my lifes greatest regrets.
That about settles it doesn't it?


Is this normal? Has anyone experienced similiar feelings?
Yes, and yes.

Regret is a bitch. You can always make more money, you can always sell the plane and move on..... But living with regret SUCKS. I missed the chance to fly my Dad (also a pilot years ago) in MY airplane. He had flown with me in rented planes, but never MY plane. He saw me fly it once, but the weather was rolling in and I had to leave to be able to make it back home. He died before I could take him up in my plane...... I'll NEVER live that down even though I know, and he knew, I made the right call that day.

If you can afford it, if your family supports it, and if you don't do dumb things like IFR without the ticket.... You will be fine.

[frfly172]

Think of the positives,it's always good to be able to check off part of the bucket list. I have bought several and have used the plane to check off trips I have on my bucket list.

[Floatsflyer]

Tarfu 43,

Ssmdive has given you solid, logical comments. Take heed.

I would add the following though. Check with your insurance company first, before you buy, to find out what they expect of you in terms of hours "on type" before you can take passengers. This will greatly increase your competency and comfort level. Get an instructor who is very familiar with type, LEARN THE AIRPLANE and fly with s/he until s/he and you feel the time has come to solo. Then just keep soloing(circuits and air work) until you feel at ease and comfortable with the idea of taking your family up. You'll know when.

As an aside, I really like Cardinals, I love the way they look, that sleek uninterrupted profile. IMO, get at least the 180hp version. I've always wondered why Cessna didn't bring it back when they resumed SE production in 1996. I think they made a mistake.

[vaflier]

I bet you had similar nerves when you got married, hows that working. If this is your dream and your family is behind you then do it. If you decide after a while that it is not for you then sell the plane and enjoy the fact that you went after your dream. You may regret buying it, but you will definetly regret not buying it because you are unsure of your skills. Your skills can be relearned and a good instructor is a must to get you comfortable again. Then take another experienced pilot flying with you for a while until you are comfortable without an instructor. Then fly by yourself for a while to prove to yourself that you are competent and safe. Then enjoy !!!!!. I was much the same as you. And bought mine 6 years ago and the only regret I have is that I did not do it sooner. Financially it will never make sense but then dreams are all about emotions and as any married man will tell you emotions seldom make sense they just are !. Buy a large insurance policy if you are truly concerned that much about your family. It will not replace you but it can provide for them if need be. We get no gaurantees in this life and we may die at any time, but we have to dream and chase our dreams to truly live life. Your family it seems would like to see you happy and chasing your dreams. Best wishes for a long life and many happy hours chasing angels through the clouds.

[Bill Greenwood]

Call a good CFI and without a lot of bs, just tell him you are a pilot but not flown since then..

Then get him to give you the equivalent of the flying part of a private pilot test. Do the whole thing, whether you pass each part or not, don't stop with just the first rusty part.
The ask him for your grade on each part on a 10 scale. If you are an 8, great you can still fly, if you are a 6 you need a little review on that part.

Now, why to I say take the test before you start taking lessons?
First of all it will save a lot of money and time. You are already a pilot, you don't need to learn it all again from scratch. And if there are parts that you do well enough now, that means that you really learned it well back then and you still know it. With 180 hours, you were still low time, but not just a beginner.
And that was enough time for you to know in your own mind how good a pilot you were/are.



Next, as part of a legally required biennial flight review you and the CFI can get current on some new FARs etc, but don't waste your time on that initially, or the CFI may be tempted to drag this out as if you never flew before. You don't legally have to take the written test again, though you could certainly do a practice one after you get the flying started.
And use a school airplane to rent at first, whatever you trained in back then, 172?

When you are ready to buy the plane, and have your medical and biennial signed off, then buy the best plane you can, with the avionics etc, already in , to save money.
Get a good pre buy inspection from an independent A & P and check the log books and ADs carefully.
And don't take your family flying until you have at least 25 hours, better 50, in the new phase of your flying.

Good luck, and I'll bet you will do fine. It has not all changed in 15 years, we now have GPS and the big thing of TFRs, but a wing still flies the same.

[Bob Meder]

Call a good CFI and without a lot of bs, just tell him you are a pilot but not flown since then..

Then get him to give you the equivalent of the flying part of a private pilot test. Do the whole thing, whether you pass each part or not, don't stop with just the first rusty part.
The ask him for your grade on each part on a 10 scale. If you are a 7 or 8, great you can still fly, if you are a 6 you need a little review on that part.

Now, why to I say take the test before you start taking lessons?
First of all it will save a lot of money and time. You are already a pilot, you don't need to learn it all again from scratch. And if there are parts that you do well enough now, that means that you really learned it well back then and you still know it. With 180 hours, you were still low time, but not just a beginner.
And that was enough time for you to know in your own mind how good a pilot you were/are.



Next, as part of a legally required biennial flight review you and the CFI can get current on some new FARs etc, but don't waste your time on that initially, or the CFI may be tempted to drag this out as if you never flew before. You don't legally have to take the written test again.
And use a school airplane to rent at first, whatever you trained in back then, 172?

When you are ready to buy the plane, and have your medical and biennial signed off, then buy the best plane you can, with the avionics etc, already in , to save money.
Get a good pre buy inspection from an independent A & P and check the log books and ADs carefully.

Good luck, and I'll bet you will do fine.

Bill - a lot of good advice there, and,frankly, pretty much what I said (only I didn't use a scale - just "fly better than PTS", because the PTS is a bare minimum).

I do take exception to the "the CFI may be tempted to drag it out.." Since you're talking about a good CFI, that really shouldn't happen: a good one will ensure that the training will meet the needs of the pilot without dragging it out. Also, a good CFI will recognize that only one signature stands between the pilot and their fully exercising the privileges listed on their certificate.

BTW, and this doesn't really matter, but the terms "BFR" and "biennial flight review" make me slightly crazy, as there are no such things. You can get a flight review every day, if you wanted to.

[Frank Giger]

Ah, I became a pilot after the biannual flight review was changed to flight review, but I still call it that, as it's required every two years.

Though I extended the time for it by completing the first stage of the WINGS program, which includes flights with a CFI in the first year after getting my little blue-green plastic square.

I think the ground school part would be a refresher on airspace, communications, flight planning and weather - a little nighttime review at home and maybe an hour to back check with a CFI, and then three flights - an hour of basic cobweb shaking, an hour of fundamentals (slow flight, ground reference maneuvers, emergency procedures, and some landings), and then a fake check ride to see where the rust needs to come off. Then some solo time to knock that rust off before breaking the 30 nm seal of the local airport area or taking someone who's a non-pilot with you (and I'd take a pilot friend with me on some of those flights as well).

One can't fail a flight review - the CFI can refuse to sign the log book saying it was completed, but that's all. And I think a good one would sign off based on your attitude of being safe and respectful of the responsibilities of a PIC.

Piloting a simple single engine aircraft isn't rocket science or some super difficult task in good weather. Let's not make it out to be more than it is while we understand that it's nothing to take too casually, either. Heck, if I can learn to fly it can't be all that hard.

[Bill Greenwood]

Bob, you may find it hard to believe, but there are CFIs who will milk a pilot, especially a new or student pilot for hours on end. The forums are full of guys who might have 30 or 40 hours and not soloed or 100 hours and still not be a pilot, Take a look at Bunkies thread below.

Some of it may be attributed to liability or what the CFI claims is his liability. Frankly I have heard of very few successful liability suits against a CFI for a pilot who trained or just did a BFR or as you would say a FR with the CFI, but was not with the CFI after that or for the incident in question. It is easy for the CFI to claim that the pilot needs more dual, "just a few more hours should do it" which is CFI talk for, "another few weeks and I can make that new car down payment".Would one sue a CFI when the lawyer fees probably amount to more than the CFIs net worth. And of course,many if not most CFIs may be honest, but there is nothing that would promote more honesty if the CFI had a financial incentative to get the student to the end of the training sooner rather than later which is the situation now.

And most of all, I don't want "Tarfu" to get with someone who wants to spend much time, at $50 per hour making a big point about what we should call a "Flight Review" that is due every 2 years.
By the way, what do you call the airplane inspection and service that is due every year for non rental private planes?

And you can learn something about flying every day,though I am not sure how much worth it is. I just flew Aspen to Boulder today, nice CAVU, light turbulence at 13,500 smooth at 15,500 and all that time I mistakenly thought I would be needed a BRF this winter. Imperfect knowledge or not, the flight seemed to go pretty well, and landed safely.

[Tarfu43]

All,

Thanks so much for all the great replies! They were awesome! It certainly gives me the encouragement to make the right decision, which is to go for it! The advice regarding a CFI and A&P is spot-on. Lucky for me that I have a CFII friend that already told me he would help get me current. And I've got the maintenance side covered; I'm an A&P, and my other buddy is an IA!
I think I was/am so nervous because I equate buying an airplane to having a kid.......and I remember how nervous I was while my wife was pregnant!
Well, my physical is in about 10 hrs from now, and shortly after that, I'll be calling the Cardinal owner. I'll post the results. Thanks again, everyone!

[Bob Meder]

Bob, you may find it hard to believe, but there are CFIs who will milk a pilot, especially a new or student pilot for hours on end. The forums are full of guys who might have 30 or 40 hours and not soloed or 100 hours and still not be a pilot, Take a look at Bunkies thread below.

Some of it may be attributed to liability or what the CFI claims is his liability. Frankly I have heard of very few successful liability suits against a CFI for a pilot who trained or just did a BFR or as you would say a FR with the CFI, but was not with the CFI after that or for the incident in question. It is easy for the CFI to claim that the pilot needs more dual, "just a few more hours should do it" which is CFI talk for, "another few weeks and I can make that new car down payment".Would one sue a CFI when the lawyer fees probably amount to more than the CFIs net worth. And of course,many if not most CFIs may be honest, but there is nothing that would promote more honesty if the CFI had a financial incentative to get the student to the end of the training sooner rather than later which is the situation now.

And most of all, I don't want "Tarfu" to get with someone who wants to spend much time, at $50 per hour making a big point about what we should call a "Flight Review" that is due every 2 years.
By the way, what do you call the airplane inspection and service that is due every year for non rental private planes?

And you can learn something about flying every day,though I am not sure how much worth it is. I just flew Aspen to Boulder today, nice CAVU, light turbulence at 13,500 smooth at 15,500 and all that time I mistakenly thought I would be needed a BRF this winter. Imperfect knowledge or not, the flight seemed to go pretty well, and landed safely.

Bill - I know, probably better than most, about CFI's that waste student's time and money. That's why I said "a good instructor." The CFI's I train get an earful about how valuable their students' time is - not just dollars spent, but just time itself. They learn that giving value will garner them more in the long run through referrals than they'll ever get from running up the meter.

Second, it's not about liability. A good flight instructor worries, first and foremost, about a student's and their passengers' safety. I, for one, never want to have to explain to anyone, particularly family and my own conscience, why something happened because I glossed something over.

As for taking time regarding "BFR" vs. flight review? No, I don't spend billable time with private pilots talking about that. In my own post, I said it really doesn't matter - it was just a mild, and I thought slightly humorous, comment about terminology. Now, if you're one of my CFI candidates, I will ask you to stop using the terms "biennial flight review" and "pilot license" (unless you're referring to an actual, foreign license). Partly out of my own pedantry, but also as a way of helping them make an impression on an inspector on one of the toughest practical tests in the system.

I guess I took umbrage because you used a very wide brush to paint CFI's. Please remember, a whole lot of us are here not to get rich (I'll turn a profit when I quit teaching), but out of the same love of aviation you have.

Oh, "required inspection", by the way... :)

[Bob Meder]

Tarfu - you're going to do great, so I don't need to wish you luck. Have fun and keep us posted.

[lnuss]

The forums are full of guys who might have 30 or 40 hours and not soloed or 100 hours and still not be a pilot,

While it's true that there are CFIs who will "milk" a student, there are also students who have a lot of trouble meeting standards in just 15-20 hours for solo, sometimes through being slow to learn certain things, some through attitude, some who just don't fly frequently enough. For instance I had one student who could fly the airplane just fine, and could easily get you from the practice area to the airport, but couldn't fly a pattern and get to the end of the runway without guidance (he landed just fine once you guided him to final), until I told him he'd have to quit being sloppy in the pattern or he'd never solo. Shortly after that he soloed.

There are also a very few who shouldn't be in an airplane at all -- often those don't want to quit, so run up the hours until you refuse to fly with them. I had a student who, though he could physically fly the airplane just fine, couldn't make decisions, even when to turn crosswind, base and final without asking, "Should I turn here?" or having someone tell him when to turn. Another was a physicist who just couldn't keep his attention where it needed to be, making him a hazard.

All that being said, though, most folks do just fine getting their ticket in 50-70 hours, a very few in less time.

[Frank Giger]

And I think a lot of those extended training hours are simply a mis-match between student and CFI. Not a bad CFI, mind you, but one that can't get on the same wavelength as the student (and vice-versa).

Heck, my first CFI was a great guy and has a solid track record of making pilots in the normal (50-70 hour) timespan. But I fired him after hour two, much to both of our relief. We just had different ways of expressing ourselves and doing things to the point that it was clear that it was going to take some time to figure out effective communication. At 200 USD an hour, I wasn't willing to find the key eventually, and found an old sarcastic and somewhat grumpy at times CFI that instantly jelled with me (though there are others that think he's bit abrupt and fussy).

I've referred folks to both that first CFI and the one that occasionally growled at me to my SP certificate, and am on fantastic terms with both.

[lnuss]

An excellent point, Frank -- personality mismatches certainly happen, and it's not the fault of either the CFI or the student. Sometimes it's hard to recognize, but experienced CFIs should be able to tell after a few hours with a student, in most cases.

[skyfixer8]

Bob, Up here in Northern Michigan, I call "required inspections" "critter checks". As an A&P, I have seen flight hours drop way down between annuals to as low as 3 hours. Planes are all hangered, so I just check for critters (as well as mandated items).

[Janet Davidson]

Tarfu,

How exciting! I hope the medical went smoothly :)

You might find a lot of like-minded & helpful folks in the Cardinal Flyers - http://www.cardinalflyers.com/home/_home.php I've met some of them, and they are a great group of enthusiasts who really care about their flying and their aeroplanes.

Have fun with that aeroplane!

[Bill Greenwood]

Inuss, I didn't write 15 or 20 hours for solo, although that should be enough for most people, and most people should have their cert by 70 hours or so and not over a 100.
Years ago when I started, 1968 at least two things were different than now. First there were more flight schools, most every big airport had one in the days before the TCA chased them away from major airports within cities.
So there was competition, if a CFI at one school did not value a student,that student could go to another school.
And I think there were more students, maybe just more people interested, or it was cheaper, or maybe the GI Bill helped.
But, in any event CFI seemed to have a different attitude toward a student solo. The solo was seen as a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings. It didn't mean the student knew everything or that more learning was not on tap.
I don't think all CFI s are like that now.

Bob, it has been a lot of years since I did it, but I didn't find my private flight test, or as you say, "practical" very hard.And solo is really easy, it is the same thing a student has probably done numerous times already, ( 3 landings )except this time the CFI is not in the plane.

[Bob Meder]

Inuss, I didn't write 15 or 20 hours for solo, although that should be enough for most people, and most people should have their cert by 70 hours or so and not over a 100.
Years ago when I started, 1968 at least two things were different than now. First there were more flight schools, most every big airport had one in the days before the TCA chased them away from major airports within cities.
So there was competition, if a CFI at one school did not value a student,that student could go to another school.
And I think there were more students, maybe just more people interested, or it was cheaper, or maybe the GI Bill helped.
But, in any event CFI seemed to have a different attitude toward a student solo. The solo was seen as a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings. It didn't mean the student knew everything or that more learning was not on tap.
I don't think all CFI s are like that now.

Bob, it has been a lot of years since I did it, but I didn't find my private flight test, or as you say, "practical" very hard.And solo is really easy, it is the same thing a student has probably done numerous times already, ( 3 landings )except this time the CFI is not in the plane.

Bill - take a look at 61.87. It's a checklist of everything a student pilot should know or perform to proficiency prior to solo. Quite honestly, to accomplish all of that, and not just be able to go around the pattern three times, it takes about 15-20 hours to get there.

These days, what I've found with my students is that the post-solo stuff is easier than the pre-solo training, and that it goes relatively quickly, with most of the remaining time taken up with the cross-countries and the solo flying.

At the end of the day, it generally works out to about 50-60 hours, although I've had a couple of outliers - one right at minimum time and one that wouldn't let me get out of the plane until he hit about 45 hours (perfectionist surgeon - what can I say?).

Finally, the practical should never be hard, because the training should have been that thorogh. The test is "only" a quality control check of the training the pilot received, and should be an opportunity for the applicant to show off what they've learned. The highest compliment I get is "the examiner was easier than you."

[Frank Giger]

I'm going to gently disagree with you, assuming training is at an uncontrolled airfield.

I soloed in around eight hours with him, and that was bumped back after it was discovered I needed two more hours of xwind training and short field landings. I don't think I'm a prodigy or anything; I think I had a great CFI that had the checklist in his head and made sure we covered everything required for the solo. The only thing I did was study at home about the required stuff and whatever we had covered before and were going to work on next; if my CFI said we'd work on ground reference I didn't wait for him to explain what they were or what needed to be done during them in the air or shortly before going up into the air.

Both the solo and the checkride were anti-climatic for me. Indeed, since they could hear the chuckle in my voice on the radio (true zero-zero CAVU; it was like cheating) I actually went around four times. The day of my checkride it was 12 degrees F and no real heat in the aircraft, so I think I could have done just about anything but a spin and passed - the poor examiner was absolutely miserable and since I knew the requirements and suggested a flow to the maneuvers that was an efficient progression from one to the next he was just along for a normal training ride.

[lnuss]

Inuss, I didn't write 15 or 20 hours for solo, although that should be enough for most people,

I know you didn't, Bill -- I just mentioned that as a typical time these days since, as Bob says above, the FARs now require stuff prior to solo that used to be at the CFI's discretion, rather than a specific requirement, especially before solo. In fact, I don't think I could have soloed in the Aeronca Chief on a grass strip in the middle of a cornfield today, the way I did in just over 9 hours in 1969, just because of the changed training requirements -- nothing to do with people's abilities. I probably would have had to transition into something with radio, transponder and electrical system, as well as some instruments beyond very basic airspeed/altimeter.


...and most people should have their cert by 70 hours or so and not over a 100.

I agree that most should have it around there, if they fly frequently enough -- once a month just doesn't hack it -- though there will always be exceptions. Note, though, that due to experiences I had over the years, I'd never guarantee that I'd solo anyone, let alone guarantee them getting a license, just because there are a very few people who have no business in an airplane (thankfully they are few).


Years ago when I started, 1968 at least two things were different than now. First there were more flight schools, most every big airport had one in the days before the TCA chased them away from major airports within cities.
So there was competition, if a CFI at one school did not value a student,that student could go to another school.
And I think there were more students, maybe just more people interested, or it was cheaper, or maybe the GI Bill helped.
But, in any event CFI seemed to have a different attitude toward a student solo. The solo was seen as a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings. It didn't mean the student knew everything or that more learning was not on tap.
I don't think all CFI s are like that now.

The biggest single change isn't CFI attitudes (and there were plenty of bad attitudes back then too), but the FAR training requirements, as Bob says above. Certainly the GI Bill helped, for those eligible (many used it for college, though), in terms of affordability and of flying frequently enough (cuts the total hours needed), but the CFI is no longer allowed to see solo as "a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings." The CFI has no choice. By the time I quit teaching (late 1990s), there was no legal way (read safe from lawsuits, also, as well as meeting FARs) to solo a student under the same conditions/situations/standards that were commonly used 30, 40 and 50 years ago. Also insurance wouldn't cover any problems, either. I think it's probably a little worse now, too.

[martymayes]

I'll side with the other CFI's. Like any profession, there's good eggs and bad eggs. Flight training has continually evolved since the airplane was invented, no constructive purpose in comparing flight training of today with that of another era. In the end, it's about being as safe as possible, not getting done in as few hrs as possible.

[Frank Giger]

Actually, Innus, look at that checklist again and think of how it applies to the uncontrolled airspace of a corn field.

The standard is to understand airspace, for example - the student pilot doesn't have to be able to negotiate JFK.

That standard exists for Sport Pilots before they solo, too, and an SP ticket doesn't come with an okay to enter controlled airspace - that's a separate endorsement.

[edit]

Btw, they changed the rule to where the GI Bill can be used on flight training - SP to Commercial - just as I finished mine up two years ago.

And I agree that once a month is a sure way for a student pilot to make things too difficult; two lessons a week were perfect for me.

[Bill Greenwood]

Bob, you write, 'not just to go around the pattern three times".

Now unless things have changed for student solos, since I did mine years ago, the solo flight is the SAME as it was back then. That is the student pilot takes off and makes two touch and gos and one full stop landing at the airport while the CFI watches.

So if that is not the case for your students, tell me what they are doing differently? Are they going to some xc distance for the landings/ Are they doing solo stalls over the airport?
I doubt it, and as a matter of fact I don't think I have ever heard of a student solo that was any different from this basic format.

Now, after my solo, I started going to nearby airports to practice patterns and landings and went on to dual and solo xc and instrument and night flying, but that was not part of the first solo.

This was the same as later when I soloed a T-6, not at my home airport but the one the CFI used, and for FAA approval for experimental LOA later, the same 3 landings at my home airport, watched by the FAA inspector, really except for the airplane, was the same thing that I had done on 1968 for my first solo of any time.

And I look at the FAR, and the airspace part says the student needs to be familiar with the airspace AT THE AIRPORT USED FOR THE SOLO. It doesn't say you have to know how to fly the N Y corridor in order to take a 172 around your home airport 3 times.

I would agree with you on one thing, Bob, having a student who is good, is more important than weather they solo in 10 hours or 20.

[lnuss]

Actually, Innus,

Let's make that Lnuss, or Larry, Frank Giger :cool:


look at that checklist again and think of how it applies to the uncontrolled airspace of a corn field.
Actually the airspace wasn't the issue, Frank -- it is the training requirements, such as cut power at 50 feet on takeoff (I'd need a different field for that), but primarily I was suggesting that 9-10 hours wouldn't work for solo, and there is a lot of stuff required now that wasn't then, getting back to Bill's thought of solo being "seen as a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings." As opposed to the solo coming much later in the training process than before.


The standard is to understand airspace, for example - the student pilot doesn't have to be able to negotiate JFK.

True, but back when I trained 8-12 hours was the norm for solo, vs the 15-20 plus hours today, largely because there were many things that are mandated today (cut power at 50 ft. etc.) that weren't mentioned in standards or FARs then.


That standard exists for Sport Pilots before they solo, too, and an SP ticket doesn't come with an okay to enter controlled airspace - that's a separate endorsement.

[edit]

Btw, they changed the rule to where the GI Bill can be used on flight training - SP to Commercial - just as I finished mine up two years ago.

Back then the GI Bill paid 90% of everything, once you had your 40 hours for Private, so it was a great incentive to continue on, for those who were eligible, though many used it for college instead of flight training. Then later the GI Bill effectively went away, as far as flight training, then it came back at (as I understood it at the time) 60% payment. It's a moving target.


And I agree that once a month is a sure way for a student pilot to make things too difficult; two lessons a week were perfect for me.

Three times is probably optimum, unless you can live it day in and day out (IMHO), but yes two days a week is very good.

[Bob Meder]

Bill - First, I'm glad we agree that having a student that is good is far more important than the number of hours at which they solo.

Now, with that in mind...

I could train someone to go up and solo at a specific airport, by rote, and probably get away with it in 10 or so hours. But, 61.87(d) specifically mandates that the student be trained and log same in 15 different items. if you combine 61.87 (1) and (2) into every lesson (and I don't see how you would do otherwise), that's 13 individual components they need to learn first.

The reasons are clear - taking the simplest example, stall recognition and recovery. I want my students to be able to react correctly if they get in that position. How about an engine failure? They should have the skills to at least put it in a field. Ground reference maneuvers? Knowing how to divide attention in the pattern. And so on.

And just to start another controversy :) : My students don't do touch and goes. In an hour, you gain maybe two trips around the pattern. I'd rather see them get off the runway, taxi back, configure the airplane properly and verify everything's right, then take off.

[lnuss]

My students don't do touch and goes. In an hour, you gain maybe two trips around the pattern. I'd rather see them get off the runway, taxi back, configure the airplane properly and verify everything's right, then take off.

Good for you, Bob! Mine have never done them either, other than to learn how to do them. I think you gain more than you lose by doing full stop taxibacks, since that gives you time between landing and takeoff to discuss what went right and what went wrong with that entire time around the patch, plus it gives the student time to mentally absorb the lesson. That's in addition to building the valuable habit of always flying the airplane to a full stop, and eliminating the hurry-up needed to reconfigure the airplane after touchdown. And fewer TO&L are needed for the training.

And full stops are even more important in tailwheel aircraft.

[Frank Giger]

I don't see anything about pulling the throttle at take-off:

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privilegesmust receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.

None of the above is rocket science, and a student should be able to perform them reasonably in 10 hours at an uncontrolled airfield in a simple aircraft.

This is assuming the student shows up prepared for the next day's lesson and has decent aptitude, and the standard of performance is proficiency, not expertise.

On touch and goes, they were a requirement for me as a student. I had taxi and runup just fine and could land well enough - it was getting the turn from base to final right so that I didn't have a lot of adjustments to make that I needed work on. Did I slow down to taxi speed? Most times I did - it's a long airfield and both the CTLS and the Champ don't need a lot of runway to take off. In the Champ if you're not slowing to resting speed you've missed the point of a touch and go. But if there's a lot of runway left turning off and then back on is just wasting time and gas, IMHO.

[lnuss]

I don't see anything about pulling the throttle at take-off:

Under item 11 below, it was required where I taught. I was given to understand that it was a "best practice," and though the reg itself doesn't specify it, supposedly either an FAA letter or an Advisory Circular (I can't find one that applies, though) had been issued. This was in the mid-late '90s, when I was still teaching, and I may have been misinformed, though it was definitely part of the curriculum. Still, it's certainly true that it takes longer today, in general.

Best practice was, among other things, procedures that could get you in trouble if it weren't taught and logged.

However, if other (preferably current) CFIs out there know more specifics (pro or con), it'd be great to hear, since I'm out of touch with it these days.


On touch and goes, they were a requirement for me as a student.
Perhaps that was your CFI or school practice, and of course it wasn't your choice, but that of the CFI. But it's not an FAA requirement, though I think a student should know how to do them, primarily because sooner or later they'll do them on their own, so they should get it right. But, to me, they're somewhat of a hindrance in teaching pattern work, taking away time and attention from the student learning from what he has just done, and our discussion of it, because of the concentration needed when doing the T&G, and even in flying the pattern.
======================================
14 CFR 61.87
...
(c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight, a student pilot must have:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and
(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:
(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.