Uh, WHAT!? Insurance...

[uavmx]

So I'm interesting in buying an experimental aircraft and decided to start getting some quotes on insurance. I'm a low time pilot (around 95 hours), but this shocked me! I'm not sure which site I went though (avemco or aopa) but I got a quote from Falcon for $6500/yr!? That was for 85k hull coverage and liability. I used a velocity 173RG as my example aircraft.

Is there something wrong with my hours? The aircraft I chose? I expected it to be higher for at least the first year, but not way in heck $6500.

Needless to say, I'm searching around more.

[Kyle Boatright]

There are a number of brokers out there who shop all of the markets. Give one of them a call and have them bid your coverage out to more than one insurance company. That way, you'll find out where the market really is for the combination of you and that airplane. I suspect your hours and the high performance of the Velocity drove the high rates, but that estimate sounds ridiculous.

[Bill Berson]

Costs more with retracts.
100 hours in type is also helpful.

[1600vw]

I was quoted 800 a year for Non-in-motion coverage. These insurance companies are out of thier flipping minds. I say they do not want our biss. The best way to keep from having us as customers, price us out by making really high quotes no one will purchase.

Bogus practices in my book.

Tony

[martymayes]

I don't think the quote is really out of line. Based on the type aircraft, number of aircraft in service and their history, ~6% of the hull value for the hull premium for someone starting with zero time in type. Yup. Pick a more conventional type with fixed gear, etc, and it will likely be more reasonable.

[CarlOrton]

I built a Sonex taildragger. I had zero Sonex hours at the time of my first flight. My first Sonex flight was also my first solo tail wheel flight. I had liability only for the first 40 hrs (full hull value for not in motion). It was about 800 for the first 40 then went to $1600. I have a private certificate and 300 hrs.

Go with a smaller agent. They're hungrier to get your business.

[FlyingRon]

Falcon is a broker. AOPA is essentially tied to a single underwriter and Avemco is a underwriter who sells directly.

Is this "from the first flight" coverage for a new homebulit or are you getting quotes on a homebuilt you are envisioning buying already built?

[rleffler]

For your time and zero time in type, the quote doesn't surprise me at all. In a RV-10, the sweet spot is 300 hours and a IFR rating to get reasonable insurance rates. For RV-10s, I've seen rates rise this past year for a variety of attributes.

1. Two underwriters withdrew from the market
2. Some stopped covering first flights
3. Some stopped covering Phase I
4. Increase numbers for transition training. (one friend was with 150 hours was required to get 15 hours transition training and got a rather larger premium to go with it) (six months before, the same company required zero time for me, but I had almost 400 hours and an IFR rating)

If there is any good news, second years rates seem to drop quite a bit assuming that you get through Phase I in the first year. Also, because of Phase I, most of us get at least another 100 hours in type which helps too.

I can't speak to other experimental models, since I only collect data on RV-10s. I've seen RV-10 quotes north of $5k for low time pilots. Most are in the $2.4k to $3.5k range, with $150k - $200k hull. The extra two seats, high performance rating, and the hull value really drives the premium up.

My only advice to find an underwriter that insures a significant model of the aircraft you are interested in purchasing. They will most likely provide the best premiums. For example, I know that Jenny at NationAir (broker) tracks RV rates with each underwriter. They may track other aircraft as well.

[Bill Berson]

The insurance company looks at cost of repairs. If parts or special repairs specialists are hard to find the only option for them is to total the ship for even a minor damage.

[gbrasch]

Try NationAir....and as said above, go with a more conventional aircraft.

[uavmx]

Falcon is a broker. AOPA is essentially tied to a single underwriter and Avemco is a underwriter who sells directly.

Is this "from the first flight" coverage for a new homebulit or are you getting quotes on a homebuilt you are envisioning buying already built?

I'm looking to buy something already flying that has flown off the required hours.


For your time and zero time in type, the quote doesn't surprise me at all. In a RV-10, the sweet spot is 300 hours and a IFR rating to get reasonable insurance rates. For RV-10s, I've seen rates rise this past year for a variety of attributes.

1. Two underwriters withdrew from the market
2. Some stopped covering first flights
3. Some stopped covering Phase I
4. Increase numbers for transition training. (one friend was with 150 hours was required to get 15 hours transition training and got a rather larger premium to go with it) (six months before, the same company required zero time for me, but I had almost 400 hours and an IFR rating)

If there is any good news, second years rates seem to drop quite a bit assuming that you get through Phase I in the first year. Also, because of Phase I, most of us get at least another 100 hours in type which helps too.

I can't speak to other experimental models, since I only collect data on RV-10s. I've seen RV-10 quotes north of $5k for low time pilots. Most are in the $2.4k to $3.5k range, with $150k - $200k hull. The extra two seats, high performance rating, and the hull value really drives the premium up.

My only advice to find an underwriter that insures a significant model of the aircraft you are interested in purchasing. They will most likely provide the best premiums. For example, I know that Jenny at NationAir (broker) tracks RV rates with each underwriter. They may track other aircraft as well.

I was putting in an 85k hull coverage, not 250k. I will give nationair a try.


I got similar feedback from Falcon: go with a more conventional aircraft. So I may have to look for an rv6/7 for my first aircraft? I really want to try and stick with experimental.

[cub builder]

With your hours (95), a high performance amateur built retract aircraft with a not so great safety record, I am surprised you could find an underwriter that would insure you at all. The insurance companies look at risk exposure and your numbers add up to a *HUGE* risk. That doesn't mean you can't train up to that aircraft, but you really need to build time in intermediate performance aircraft first, then move to high performance and retracts. Get your instrument rating along the way. In the Velocity you are insuring 3 passengers as well with a very high risk factor pilot. For the risk you are asking the insurance company to take, that is a very reasonable quote. I hope you take the training and experience considerations to heart. If you really want to fly a Velocity (I have and they are great flying aircraft), use that as a goal for yourself, but work your way up to it with your pilot skills, training and experience. That's not just to make the insurance cheaper, but it also significantly reduces your risk level as a pilot.

-Cub Builder

[uavmx]

With your hours (95), a high performance amateur built retract aircraft with a not so great safety record, I am surprised you could find an underwriter that would insure you at all. The insurance companies look at risk exposure and your numbers add up to a *HUGE* risk. That doesn't mean you can't train up to that aircraft, but you really need to build time in intermediate performance aircraft first, then move to high performance and retracts. Get your instrument rating along the way. In the Velocity you are insuring 3 passengers as well with a very high risk factor pilot. For the risk you are asking the insurance company to take, that is a very reasonable quote. I hope you take the training and experience considerations to heart. If you really want to fly a Velocity (I have and they are great flying aircraft), use that as a goal for yourself, but work your way up to it with your pilot skills, training and experience. That's not just to make the insurance cheaper, but it also significantly reduces your risk level as a pilot.

-Cub Builder

Yep, I get it. To be clear, I'm looking for a FG version.

It sounds like rv6/7 rates will be more reasonable and that may be the route to go for 100 hours plus getting my IFR, then transition to something more.

[Jim Hann]

Try NationAir....and as said above, go with a more conventional aircraft.
I've got them, very good!


It sounds like rv6/7 rates will be more reasonable and that may be the route to go for 100 hours plus getting my IFR, then transition to something more.
NationAir hosts an RV get together at Oshkosh. They insure a LOT of them!

Jim

[rleffler]

Yep, I get it. To be clear, I'm looking for a FG version.

It sounds like rv6/7 rates will be more reasonable and that may be the route to go for 100 hours plus getting my IFR, then transition to something more.

You should be able to insure a two seat RV under $2.5k. I think most are under $2k. The first year may be painful, but the rates will drop after you get some time in class. Any of the good brokers can set appropriate expectations on to get the best rates. i.e. more time, IFR, different aircraft, etc.

My only advice is if you carry hull insurance is to insure for replacement cost. If you go with lower limits to save a few bucks, you could be disappointed when they total your aircraft over a minor repair.

[Kyle Boatright]

You should be able to insure a two seat RV under $2.5k. I think most are under $2k. The first year may be painful, but the rates will drop after you get some time in class. Any of the good brokers can set appropriate expectations on to get the best rates. i.e. more time, IFR, different aircraft, etc.

My only advice is if you carry hull insurance is to insure for replacement cost. If you go with lower limits to save a few bucks, you could be disappointed when they total your aircraft over a minor repair.

My RV-6 is under $1k/yr with a $55k hull value, and a $100K/pax, $1M/event policy. I have about 1,300 hours with 900 or so of them in my RV-6.

[Bulldog XX701]

Try SkySmith... He's been the cheapest for me, with AIG as the underwriter. http://www.skysmith.com/

[Bill Greenwood]

I don't know very much about a Velocity, but it is an unusual design which has a number of features like rear engine pusher that is different from the norm of most other airplanes, I think it was introduced years ago as a homebuilt a and got a less than overwhelming reception. Does it have any great feature like a parachute that would make it safer or more desirable than other more established designs or does it just look good because of the low price?
I don't know RV prices, but while there are only a few Velocity around, many models of RV have been built and are flying every day, and probably being insured. Have the design features of the Velocity be so successful that they have really taken over the market, and changed the market? Examples are Honda motorcycles and portable computers and cell phones, all of which did change the market.

Also it is human nature to overstate the points of something you are trying to sell, and particularly a new design homebuilt. I think it is good policy to try out anything you are going to buy, and certainly an airplane. I would not want to buy one without test flying unless it was something so established as to be a known quantity, or that you couldn't get a flight in.
Also if you find something at the bottom end of the price range, maybe it is a good deal or maybe there is a reason the price is low. I had about $25K for my first airplane in 1980 and looking at the bottom of the price range found me the first one which was not legally airworthy since, according to the owner the annual had been done, but it fact there was no annual signed off in the log books, and the next airplane on which the brakes did not work. I gave up on the hot looking Swift and bought a Mooney M20 C.

There are decent airplanes the can be bought for $60k and one doesn't have to settle for a less exciting fixed gear trainer. I know of an older Vtail Bonanza, good paint, decent interior, and good engine that can be bought for $60K.

Your insurance problem is related to the plane, but not exactly . Insurers love and put a lot of store on time in type of which you have none. They also like total time and higher ratings, but low time in type and total time less than 100 hours is tough. You might discuss getting 25 hours dual in type first or only insuring for liabiltity, not hull value at first. If you break it, the loss is yours, but the ins will be a lot cheaper, and you may fly more carefully. The ins co will likely want a you to do a CFI checkout and it may be hard to find one who teaches in his own Velocity. When I was getting started I had to look around before I found instructors to give me checkouts in J3 Cub and T-6.

[cub builder]

The Velocity factory has a good transition training course at their home in Sebastion, FL. I've been through it. Overall, they are good performing plane with some very nice features and a few oddities. But they are not a beginners plane. For a decent insurance rate (and your overall safety), you really need more time (experience), some high performance time, the factory transition training course, and some additional time with an instructor in the plane (which could also be done in Sebastion at Velocity). When you're talking high performance aircraft, and instrument ticket is usually helpful with the insurance bill as well.

I've flown Velocities. I've inspected Velocities. I've done a significant amount of maintenance on Velocities. I wouldn't care to own one as some of the quirks are things I would just as soon not deal with, but that doesn't mean they aren't a really great plane to fly depending on the mission and they do provide great performance for the investment.

-Cub Builder

[ssmdive]

Insurance is based off of a lot of factors. Some are:

1. Experience of the pilot
2. Performance of the plane
3. Known issues with the type of plane
4. Commonality of the plane and replacement parts

So for 1, you have under 100 hours and I'll very little time in type. This makes the company look at you like a risk. My Pitts I had 300 hours TT and 100+ tailwheel and they still required me to get 10 hours dual in a Pitts before they would insure me and yes, it was still expensive.

For #2 the plane is known to go very fast and it can carry 3 other people. My Pitts is a single, to add that extra seat my insurance doubled. So you have a fast plane that can risk 4 people total.

3. Issues. I don't know of any issues with the plane, but I'd bet the insurance company knows of a few. And even if they don't, they will not look at that as GOOD, they will just assume that they are not identified yet.

#4 is a big one. If you ask an underwritter how much to replace the horizontal stab of a C172, they can give you a ball park figure off the top of their head. They deal with 172's all day and know what things cost. When you have an unusual plane, they have no idea even if they can get parts, or how much that part will cost. For example, I have a buddy with a custom 32 Ford Coupe. He cannot get insurance from State Farm for it and had to go with a specialty insurance company, they cost more and they had a LOW value on the car.

If you were looking for an RV6 you would get a much lower quote.
1. 100 hours would still be on the low end, but not considered crazy for an RV6
2. An RV6 will only carry one other person. Still a fast plane, but nothing considered strange.
3. Not many known issues with the RV6
4. There are enough 6's out there that people know about what they cost and what they cost to repair.

You could do the same basic 4 for a Cub and find out why it would cost less to insure than an RV6.
1. A Cub was a trainer, so low time is not that big of a deal, just tailwheel.
2. Only carries two people, not a fast plane.
3. No known issues
4. The Cub is easy to repair (if you know a fabric guy).

A Cessna 150 would even be less because you remove the tailwheel issue.


Is there something wrong with my hours? The aircraft I chose?

So there is something wrong with your hours AND something wrong with the plane you picked (based on insurance not anything else). If you were looking to insure a 150 it would not be a big deal with your hours, if you had 1,000 hours in type it might not be an issue. And if the plane was better known and more common it might be easier to insure even if it was as high performance.