expired airworthiness certificate

[aeromike49]

I have a 1957 Experimental Amateur built that the airworthiness certificate expired back in 1966. I have spent 3 years restoring Stitts Flut R Bug and now waiting for the FAA to decide what to do with an expired airworthiness certificate. I have searched the internet and been on several forums and asked everyone that I can contact about what or where I can find the procedure written as to the renewal of the airworthiness certificate. Hundreds of experimental planes had a requirement for annual airworthiness certificate renewal. Sometime this procedure has changed but for some reason there is no written procedure that I can find now. I have the complete log books, the FAA sign offs for testing, all the condition inspection sign offs and letters from the FAA renewing the certificate. The plane has 129 hours on it and has been flight tested by Ray Stitts and released for flight - he even demonstrated the aircraft for the FAA and had many photo shoots. Can anyone provide me with guidance as to what their experience was in renewing an airworthiness certificate? I haven't heard back from the FAA yet - DAR is involved but he doesn't have any procedure to follow but has told me that I will require a "new" test phase? Yes the fuselage was recovered and everything on the plane rebuilt, replaced or carefully inspected - don't know what this has to do with requiring a test sequence since it already flew 129 hours and the 50 hour test phase was signed off by the FAA - maybe a different FAA than what we now have ?? Don't know -

[cub builder]

The requirements for the airworthiness and inspections on Experimental Amateur Built aircraft changed in 1980. At that time, the FAA would simply issue you a permanent airworthiness certificate. Since they don't have a written procedure, they will likely fall back on their current procedure, which would be to have a DAR inspection to issue a new airworthiness certificate and operating limitations. That may require a 40 hour test period. However, you might have a discussion with the FSDO FAA Airworthiness Inspector to question this. If proof of the original test period is documented, they may accept that and assign you a lesser test period following the restoration. Major alterations of an E-AB aircraft are supposed to have an FAA approval with a new test period assigned. The number of hours required for the test period varies depending on what all was done. I have had the FAA assign me new test periods ranging from 5 - 25 hours depending on what modifications I did to the aircraft, although typically the new test phase was 5 hours. So, a new test phase would be the standard for a rebuilt E-AB aircraft anyway.

You may find that if you have the original airworthiness certificate and operating limitations, the FSDO may be willing to allow you to turn them in in exchange for a new Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations. It typically takes 2 weeks to receive the new ones from FSDO. Then all you need is the FSDO blessing for major altertions (restoration), which (in our FSDO) is typically accomplished by a phone call from to an Airworthiness Inspector, then a write up emailed to the FSDO Airworthiness Inspector describing the modifications, and an official letter from the inspector telling me how long the aircraft has to go back to Phase 1 testing (typically 5 hours, but could be up to 25 hours). This process varies from FSDO to FSDO and will require you to talk to them and clearly communicate what you are doing and what you need. In these cases (at least in our FSDO), the Airworthiness Inspector that ends up with your request is usually there to help guide you through the regulatory and paper maze of the FAA. So work with them to get it accomplished.

-Cub Builder

[aeromike49]

I have all the documentation from day one including the FAA sign off of the 50 hours of testing, log book entries, FAA approvals of the amateur built status etc. There were no modifications to the aircraft only repairs and replacement of hoses, tires, hardware etc. that were aged to include recover of the fuselage and painting. Its the same engine (C90) and McCauley prop that was approved when the aircraft was built. Only item added is an ELT - which changed the weight and balance slightly. So I will see how it goes as the 3rd FAA inspector has sent me an E Mail requesting the same info as I sent to the other 2 inspectors.

[cub builder]

There were no modifications to the aircraft only repairs and replacement of hoses, tires, hardware etc. that were aged to include recover of the fuselage and painting.

FWIW, the FAA considers recovering to be a major alteration. There's nothing wrong with spending some time getting to know the plane in the air during a test period. In fact, I highly recommend it. In this case, work with the FSDO Airworthiness Inspector as a friend that's going to help you through the regulatory maze. If you get yourself all set for an argument with them, that's what you're likely to get. Keep us posted on how this goes.

-Cub Builder

[1600vw]

I kinda just went through this. I marked out airplane on forum 8050-2 and put parts in place of airplane. I received a letter from OK city. My airplane now was deregistered. They wanted to see pics of a completed airplane in one piece ready for flight.

If I could not produce said pics the airplane would have to be reinspected by a DAR. Then a new airworthy certificate would be issued for the airplane and the 40 hrs would have to be flown off again. Seeing as I just purchased said airplane and it was in the shop going through a Condition inspection, said airplane was in a state of disassemble.

I had one save. That was this airplane was never reported as being disassembled I just screwed up the forum 8050-2 by putting something on that forum that was not to be there. I had to contact the man I purchased the airplane from and he gave me a new 8050-2 and I sent it in. Today I have my new registration for my new to me airplane.

Seeing how your airplane is in a state of disassemble and reported with an expired airworthy certificate, I believe OK City will make you have a DAR inspect said airframe, then you will receive a new airworthy certificate and a new 40 hrs fly off.

Now I could be wrong for deregistered is a little different then expired. But disassembled is disassembled. Good luck.
Tony

[martymayes]

You are correct aeromike, this is nothing more than a paperwork exercise. Don't let anyone bully you into doing something else. It's probably not a very high priority at the FSDO so you can expect any 'response' from the FAA to be somewhat slow.

[1600vw]

I too had all paper work for my airplane. I was amazed how fast the FAA got back with me after sending in my registration. It seems like it was around 4 or 5 weeks and I was hearing from them. Then it was only a few weeks before it was all straightened out. But if I could not produce the paper work they wanted it was a big deal. But because said paper work was available it was just some paper work.

Keep us posted or this thread up to date as to how this turns out.

Tony

[aeromike49]

I too had all paper work for my airplane. I was amazed how fast the FAA got back with me after sending in my registration. It seems like it was around 4 or 5 weeks and I was hearing from them. Then it was only a few weeks before it was all straightened out. But if I could not produce the paper work they wanted it was a big deal. But because said paper work was available it was just some paper work.

Keep us posted or this thread up to date as to how this turns out.

Tony

I got word from the DAR that he is now approved by the FAA to inspect my plane. I submitted the paperwork to the FAA on Aug 18th. I just hope that next year it won't be such a hassle? The DAR will be away for the holiday and inspection is scheduled for Sept 13th.

[aeromike49]

As of Sept 13 2014 I was issued a special airworthiness certificate with no expiration date. Phase 1 testing of 5 hours and 5 takeoffs and landings to a full stop. Seems reasonable to me. The DAR came out and looked over the aircraft and paperwork. I have not been able to fly the aircraft (after 48 years of inactivity) as the wind has been excessive for a first flight. I spent over 20 hours on the paperwork. I created my own flight test plan - 5 pages worth. Also created several checklists, Several weight and balance sheets created with different weights, fuel loads and passenger weights, created an equipment list, and history of the aircraft All of this data was requested by the DAR. I had everything in a binder with tabs for each section. All of this worked well so the paperwork was readily available. I spent quite while documenting all the repairs and work performed in the aircraft and engine logs. The DAR commented that because of my background as an ATP pilot and A/P IA that the re-issue of the airworthiness certificate went smoothly. I had forwarded most all of the paperwork in advance so he had the opportunity to review the data before he came to look at the plane.

[aeromike49]

As of Sept 13 2014 I was issued a special airworthiness certificate with no expiration date. Phase 1 testing of 5 hours and 5 takeoffs and landings to a full stop. Seems reasonable to me. The DAR came out and looked over the aircraft and paperwork. I have not been able to fly the aircraft (after 48 years of inactivity) as the wind has been excessive for a first flight. I spent over 20 hours on the paperwork. I created my own flight test plan - 5 pages worth. Also created several checklists, Several weight and balance sheets created with different weights, fuel loads and passenger weights, created an equipment list, and history of the aircraft All of this data was requested by the DAR. I had everything in a binder with tabs for each section. All of this worked well so the paperwork was readily available. I spent quite while documenting all the repairs and work performed in the aircraft and engine logs. The DAR commented that because of my background as an ATP pilot and A/P IA that the re-issue of the airworthiness certificate went smoothly. I had forwarded most all of the paperwork in advance so he had the opportunity to review the data before he came to look at the plane.

I forgot to add that included in the hours of paperwork was the AD note research on the engine, propeller, and accessories to include the carburetor, magnetos, and ELT.

[mrbarry]

i see your first post in aug 14
cleared for test flight sept 14

PDQ action from the fed i think "
somewhere i think i saw something about the standards changing and requiring all the E-AB built and tested before a cutoff date to do another test flight sequence .
i hate to hang my butt out talking from memory and not quoting a reference .

but it donna really matter
you WERE CLEARED FOR TEST SEQUENCE

light the fires and launch

how is this test sequence going on that Classic Collectible Aircraft

over to you

[aeromike49]

i see your first post in aug 14
cleared for test flight sept 14

PDQ action from the fed i think "
somewhere i think i saw something about the standards changing and requiring all the E-AB built and tested before a cutoff date to do another test flight sequence .
i hate to hang my butt out talking from memory and not quoting a reference .

but it donna really matter
you WERE CLEARED FOR TEST SEQUENCE

light the fires and launch

how is this test sequence going on that Classic Collectible Aircraft

over to you
I did the first test flight on Monday morning and the engine/prop were perfect. The airspeed indicator seemed to be in-accurate however the plane was climbing like crazy at 40 knots indicated and really jumped into the air. I got the airspeed to ZERO (at 4000 ft) and the plane was still flying - nose up - not stalled - fully controllable. I have some buffeting in the tail that some close up of gaps between the fuselage and wing might help? I did talk to Ray Stitts about this and he is sending me a drawing of a fairing that he designed that should take care of the problem. I ordered a new SkySports airspeed indicator in MPH from Aircraft Spruce - never heard of that brand and don't know if it will be reliable or not ? The airspeed indicator in the plane now was tested at an instrument shop and was working when I installed it -2 years ago. However it is probably 50 years old - so not trustworthy - Bad weather here for the next several days so it will be maybe the weekend before I fly it again. I need an accurate airspeed indicator to record the various speeds requested for phase 1 testing.

[martymayes]

great progress mike!

Maybe you could install a temporary airspeed indicator? Might have to fiddle with the static location to get a good indication.

[aeromike49]

great progress mike!

Maybe you could install a temporary airspeed indicator? Might have to fiddle with the static location to get a good indication.

I am just going by the fact that the plane has been flown for maybe 200 hours and the location of the pitot tube and static port have not been changed in the past 50 years so replacing the airspeed indicator with a new one that reads in MPH will be a place to start.

[Frank Giger]

That's pretty funny in that I was thinking that I'd replace the airspeed indicator - in 50 years it might be a little cranky.

[1600vw]

There are test you can perform to make sure your system is working as it should. You can check for leaks in the system and for calibration of the system. One uses a Manometer you can build yourself. The other requires you to take a section of tubing. Stick it over the pitot tube then roll up the tubing or hose until you get 3/4 reading on your ASI. If your ASI is one that reads say to 80, you would look for a reading of around 70 on the gauge when performing this test.

[aeromike49]

There are test you can perform to make sure your system is working as it should. You can check for leaks in the system and for calibration of the system. One uses a Manometer you can build yourself. The other requires you to take a section of tubing. Stick it over the pitot tube then roll up the tubing or hose until you get 3/4 reading on your ASI. If your ASI is one that reads say to 80, you would look for a reading of around 70 on the gauge when performing this test.

I will check everything out when I replace the airspeed indicator.
Mike

[1600vw]

Calibrating your ASI or air speed indicator.

http://www.rst-engr.com/rst/articles/KP89JUL.pdf

[Jim Hann]

I ordered a new SkySports airspeed indicator in MPH from Aircraft Spruce - never heard of that brand and don't know if it will be reliable or not ? The airspeed indicator in the plane now was tested at an instrument shop and was working when I installed it -2 years ago. However it is probably 50 years old - so not trustworthy
I'm guessing you started the thread about SkySports being Chinese. I'd be an overhauled 50 year old ASI will be better than a Chinese one!