Don't say "Airplane"

[Chris In Marshfield]

So, I knew this already, but I thought I went into a place I could trust when looking for good Doug Fir for my airplane project. I went into my local lumber supplier and asked the guy (with whom I'd spoken before about airplane stuff -- he was interested and excited about the topic) if he had any wide-plank Douglas Fir. He said he had 2x8, 2x10, and 2x12. I said cool. He asked what I was using it for, and like a dummy I said, "for an airplane".

He went on to tell me that his was #2-grade stuff, and his suppliers didn't hand-pick lumber with a straight enough grain that it would likely require. I told him that was fine, as that's my job to pick out the right quality material, since there isn't such a thing as "certified aircraft grade lumber". He told me, "Sorry, I can't help you."

I asked him if I could take a look at what he had, to which he repeated, "My supplier doesn't hand-pick lumber of this quality. Sorry, I can't help you." He wouldn't even allow me to look at his stock.

So, lesson learned. If you're looking for Doug Fir, you're not building an airplane, you're building doors. Or a boat. Or a shed. Or go try your luck at the big box stores where you couldn't get anyone to help you find lumber, even if you were throwing $100 bills on the floor in the lumber section. Then you can peruse to your heart's content without being bothered.

I'm really disappointed in this guy, because I've done plenty of business with him. But as soon as I uttered the "A" word, I might as well have the plague. Too bad, really. Too bad.

~Chris

[1600vw]

I needed a trailer to move my newly purchased airplane home. When I went into uhaul to pick up a trailer, I mentioned an airplane was going on it. They would not rent me the trailer. Even though I moved three other airplanes on the same trailer just a few weeks before. But I never mentioned I was hauling airplanes until the last time I wanted to rent it. I went through yeck finding a trailer after that.

Never mention you are doing anything with an airplane, just keep it to yourself.

Tony

[frfly172]

Try a dealer who deals in marine woods.

[Bob Meder]

Actually, in today's litigious environment, I can't blame them.

[Chris In Marshfield]

Maybe we should all just sit in a sterilized lead-lined box with super-filtered pure oxygen, dead-bolted from the outside, wearing tin foil hats so we don't have any risk in our lives. A sad state humanity has become.

[Chris In Marshfield]

Try a dealer who deals in marine woods.

I'll have to see what I can find. I don't live anywhere near the water, much less a place that would sell marine wood. If it came down to it, I suppose I could plunk down the big bucks at ACS for Spruce, but I'd rather not if I can get away with it. One of my airplane buddies in a different area of the country was able to locate appropriate Doug Fir in the aviation department at Lowe's, believe it or not. Sadly, none in my local Lowe's. Still looking, though.

~Chris

[Blue Chips]

Some smaller lumber places frown on hand picking, perhaps it was more that then for what it was for.

Send some else in at a later date and buy a bunch then bring back what isn't used or wait till he's not there.

[Blue Chips]

Actually, in today's litigious environment, I can't blame them.

As annoying as it is, I don't blame them either, learned long ago never mention the word.

[Floatsflyer]

I mentioned the "A" word to my first wife a few times. She's been my ex-wife for 30 years now:-)

[dougbush]

Same thing happened to me when I wanted an oxygen cylinder to refill the built-in O2 tanks. They said I needed Aviator's Breathing Oxygen, and they didn't have any. So, I went to their competitor and got a welding torch, goggles, and acetylene and O2 cylinders.

[FlyingRon]

We have a local gas supplier I have an ongoing relationship for CO2 (for my soda dispensor) and Nitrogen (for the wine bar) and they sell oxygen for Medical and Welding. Originally they had offered to one day turn around filling my tank by sending it over to their facility across town (the place I pick up my other tanks near Dulles airport doesn't actually fill things there they just distribute them). Subsequently, they decided that they didn't want to do even that.

On the other hand, I've gone the other way. We were doing welding on the fire engine and the guy I'm working with curses that his O2 tank has run out. I point out we have all kinds of oxygen on the ambulance and went and grabbed the thumper bottle.


When I had my aircraft step that needed chroming I took it to the local motorcycle shop who referred me to the machine shop next door who referred me to a metal plating place up in Baltimore. With great trepidation I told them what this thing was I was giving them, but they didn't seem to care. Came back looking beautiful.

[cub builder]

Most folks not involved with aviation imagine huge lawsuits with little benefit to them, so don't want to deal with aviation. Face it, we are a very small sector of the population and building a plane is going to have little financial impact on the lumber yard. And, as your lumber dealer correctly points out, they do not hand select lumber and more importantly, the handling of lumber for aviation use is significantly different from the Doug Fir you're going to find at the lumber yard. That starts with the way the drop the tree which gets special "kid glove" handling from there on. That is not to say you can't get decent Doug Fir by digging through the lumber at the yard, but you have no idea how much abuse it has seen on it's way to the lumber yard. If you want to hand pick lumber, make sure you tell them you are building bunk beds for your kids or cabinets, or something other than an aircraft. As soon as you mention aviation, all they see is liability.

I ran into the same thing when buying seat/shoulder harnesses for my project. The more popular on line race shops carry hundreds of different types of harnesses and will sell to anyone building any type of off road race car, no matter how dangerous. But as soon as you mention aviation, they will refuse to talk to you. So you hang up and order on line. The legal system in this country has people so afraid of being sued that if they don't understand your use, they suddenly view doing business with you as a liability. You can try to explain to them that aviation is significantly safer than racing sprint cars and off road buggies, but they have no interest in understanding your argument.

-Cub Builder

[Byron J. Covey]

He asked what I was using it for, and like a dummy I said, "for an airplane".

I asked him if I could take a look at what he had, to which he repeated, "My supplier doesn't hand-pick lumber of this quality. Sorry, I can't help you." He wouldn't even allow me to look at his stock.

So, lesson learned. If you're looking for Doug Fir, you're not building an airplane, you're building doors. Or a boat. Or a shed.

~Chris

Except for Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, et al, I have never purchased anything for an airplane. I've purchased lots of stuff for science projects, boats, go-carts, dune buggies, farms, and motorcycles, to name a few.

[Frank Giger]

Too funny....but true - one has to be careful using the "A" word in stores and with vendors.

I was at an off road place looking at harnesses, having told them I was building a dune buggy from scratch and would have to make my own mounts for it. We're all getting along famously when the wife, who was being more than patient, wandered back over from looking at motorcycles and let the airplane cat out of the bag.

Suddenly all the crap they said about the merits of different harnesses went out the window and none of them were acceptable for use.

The flip side is the guy working at Home Depot that saw the collection of odd stuff I was buying, including some aluminum sheet, and laughingly remarked "what kind of airplane are you building?" to which I responded "Nieuport 11." Turns out he had built an RV and we had a nice builder's meeting right there in the aisle.

[rwanttaja]

Except for Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, et al, I have never purchased anything for an airplane. I've purchased lots of stuff for science projects, boats, go-carts, dune buggies, farms, and motorcycles, to name a few.
I like to use the term, "Off-Road Vehicle." They can't even accuse you of lying....

Ron Wanttaja

[Bob Dingley]

Add public storage units to the list. I had a two year waiting list for a hangar and my Beech was tied down on the line. I also had a tube and fabric project on the gear. No engine. no fuel tank. No fabric. Just welded tubes. When asked, I told the manager that it was going to be an airplane. He said "No way. It may explode."


Bob

[Jim Hann]

Add public storage units to the list. I had a two year waiting list for a hangar and my Beech was tied down on the line. I also had a tube and fabric project on the gear. No engine. no fuel tank. No fabric. Just welded tubes. When asked, I told the manager that it was going to be an airplane. He said "No way. It may explode."


Bob
Bob, it was an art project. You are a modernistic tube artist. Ask him if he is willing to give you a discount to support the arts! :-)

[Bob Dingley]

Good one Jim. I just wasn't thinking fast enough. I told the next place that it was farm machinery.

[Byron J. Covey]

When asked, I told the manager that it was going to be an airplane. He said "No way. It may explode."Bob

Happens all the time ....

[Jim Hann]

Good one Jim. I just wasn't thinking fast enough. I told the next place that it was farm machinery.
:thumbsup:

[Yellowhammer]

It is imperative that you breath aviation o2!

[Auburntsts]

This is an unintended bonus of building an RV. In the situations like these when you get asked you just say I’m working on my RV. I can’t help it if they think Winnebago and not Van’s. :P

[DaleB]

For parts... It's a custom off road vehicle, that's what it is. What kind? Oh, home built. Engine? Don't know yet, maybe VW or something similar, maybe Rotax. All true. No mention of an airplane.

For wood... It's an art piece. That's why I need such straight grained wood.

[Dana]

Funny, everybody talks about this problem, but I have never experienced it. Local hardware store, auto parts store, lumberyard, "What's it for?" "It's for my airplane." Oh, cool!"

When I was looking for spar stock for my Starduster I called Condon Lumber in NY, was told, "We don't stock aircraft grade lumber specifically but you're welcome to come down and look through what we have, other airplane builders do."

Closest I came to that was an online supplier of 2-stroke (Cuyuna) engine parts who had a disclaimer about none of the parts being designed for, or should be used on, any aircraft, but they knew full well what people were buying them for.

Breathing oxygen and welding oxygen are exactly the same thing, from the same tanks at the supplier.

[rwanttaja]

Funny, everybody talks about this problem, but I have never experienced it. Local hardware store, auto parts store, lumberyard, "What's it for?" "It's for my airplane." Oh, cool!"

Happened to me when I took my generator in for a rebuild. The guy looked at it, and said, "This looks like it came from an airplane. We're not allowed to work on airplane generators."

"It's for an off-road vehicle...."

"Well, that's OK then."

About 15 years ago I needed some brake-pad material to replace the pads on my Goodyears (list price, $200 a pair for pads the size of a poker chip). Went to the local brake shop to see if I could buy some scrap. Made the mistake of saying "airplane," got the beginning of a freeze-out, then changed my story and all was well. Gave them $15 for a the shop's beer fund; got me enough material for a dozen pads.

On the other hand, I needed a new tachometer cable and took mine to the speedometer-repair shop for measurement and replacement. Used the "off-road vehicle" line. Guy at the counter said, "Looks more like an airplane unit, we do those all the time....."

Ron Wanttaja

[Airmutt]

Dana your statement about oxygen is almost correct.

There are several ways that industry professionals refer to oxygen grades (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lpt/oxlabel.htm). The Compression Gas Association (CGA) has identified seven grades of oxygen, A through G, which determine how pure the oxygen is. Oxygen may also be designated as USP, which means that it has been certified by the eponymous organization, the United States Pharmacopeia (USP).
Almost all oxygen produced in plants now meets USP requirements, mainly due to economic reasons of storing oxygen in separate facilities, but it is the purity of the oxygen (i.e., how much of any other gases are still present) and the way the oxygen cylinders are filled that separate oxygen grades. There are four accepted “grades” of oxygen used in various industries: welding, research, aviation and medical.

so regarding purity......
Welding oxygen is used in certain types of welding techniques, either to aid in the production of heat or as an additive to aid in stability of the process. While in use, other contaminants may enter the oxygen cylinder, such as acetylene. When a cylinder must be filled with oxygen, the fill station operator will detect whether there is a presence of acetylene. If there is, the cylinder is cleaned and later filled with oxygen. If the cylinder is labeled for medical oxygen, the cylinder must be evacuated before being refilled.
Aviation breathing oxygen (ABO) (https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/Oxygen_Equipment.pdf) is strictly regulated, and neither medical nor industrial grade oxygen can be substituted because of these standards. The CGA’s Grade E is commonly also called aviator’s grade, and this oxygen must also go through additional drying steps before it goes into a cylinder.
Research grade oxygen is 99.999% pure (“five nines,” also called grade 5) and is used in both chemical research facilities and specialty welding applications in the aerospace industry.
Medical oxygen is used for oxygen therapy and hospitals (https://www.oxygenconcentratorstore.com/oxygen-concentrators/), is designated as a drug and therefore must satisfy FDA requirements for compressed medical gas. One of the requirements is that cylinders containing oxygen must always be completed evacuated to minimize the risk of contamination.

[DBurr]

And BTW, don't forget to take off your EAA, Vans, Zenith, or whatever aviation-themed T-shirt before you wander in to these places on the weekend. You say "off road vehicle" and they say "yeah right buddy".

[Airmutt]

Ironically that don’t say airplane rule doesn’t seem to apply when shopping for tools. Hmmmm...... wonder why???:eek:

[rwanttaja]

Ironically that don’t say airplane rule doesn’t seem to apply when shopping for tools. Hmmmm...... wonder why???:eek:

Unless someone gets VERY sloppy with a welder, a socket wrench or screwdriver is not likely to become incorporated into the aircraft structure. Makes it harder for a lawyer to point at it and claim it's the cause of the accident.

Ron "Why is there a latex glove glued inside the wing?" Wanttaja

[DaleB]

Ron "Why is there a latex glove glued inside the wing?" Wanttaja
Just in case.


:)

[Mike M]

Welding oxygen is used in certain types of welding techniques, either to aid in the production of heat or as an additive to aid in stability of the process. While in use, other contaminants may enter the oxygen cylinder, such as acetylene. When a cylinder must be filled with oxygen, the fill station operator will detect whether there is a presence of acetylene. If there is, the cylinder is cleaned and later filled with oxygen. If the cylinder is labeled for medical oxygen, the cylinder must be evacuated before being refilled.
Aviation breathing oxygen (ABO) (https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/Oxygen_Equipment.pdf) is strictly regulated, and neither medical nor industrial grade oxygen can be substituted because of these standards. The CGA’s Grade E is commonly also called aviator’s grade, and this oxygen must also go through additional drying steps before it goes into a cylinder.
Research grade oxygen is 99.999% pure (“five nines,” also called grade 5) and is used in both chemical research facilities and specialty welding applications in the aerospace industry.
Medical oxygen is used for oxygen therapy and hospitals (https://www.oxygenconcentratorstore.com/oxygen-concentrators/), is designated as a drug and therefore must satisfy FDA requirements for compressed medical gas. One of the requirements is that cylinders containing oxygen must always be completed evacuated to minimize the risk of contamination.

The Airgas facility in Flagstaff, 2004. Saw their servicing facility. One tank of LOX fed a manifold. On the manifold, takeoff fittings labeled "welding", "medical", and "aviator breathing" along with the appropriate warnings, hazmat labels, regulatory gobbledegook. One LOX tank, one manifold. I'll believe what the reference said. I'll also believe what I saw in practice by one of the biggest and most reputable companies in the business, a subsidiary of one of the largest companies in the business worldwide, to meet those standards. Of course, the world has changed a lot since 2004.

[Mike M]

Unless someone gets VERY sloppy with a welder, a socket wrench or screwdriver is not likely to become incorporated into the aircraft structure. Makes it harder for a lawyer to point at it and claim it's the cause of the accident.

So true! But it happens. Once upon a time when I was a little boy in the Navy, an aircraft needed a repair to the tail fairing. When opened up they found a wrench etched with "HC-1 airframes" but the aircraft hadn't been assigned to HC-1 in the previous fifteen years. Hmmmmm

[FlyingRon]

There was a story of someone finding a wrench buried inside the fuselage of a Navion decades later. It was amusing because the A&P who found it was working with the guy who lost it (I was wondering where that thing went).

[Airmutt]

Kinda on the same line.... in the 60’s Howard Hughes bought a couple of Lockheed Jetstars. One of the acceptance pilots left a thermos bottle in the cockpit. HH would not let him open the aircraft and retrieve it. As a kid I can remember my dad lifting me up to peer into the cockpit to see it during an open house event. They were kept in a hangar which Lockheed eventual turned into a secure facility. Never did know what happened to those Jetstars.

[martymayes]

Ironically that don’t say airplane rule doesn’t seem to apply when shopping for tools. Hmmmm...... wonder why???:eek:

Just about every tool at Harbor Freight has a tag that says "Not for use on aircraft" Even the transmission jack they sell.

[Snaproll]

The Airgas facility in Flagstaff, 2004. Saw their servicing facility. One tank of LOX fed a manifold. On the manifold, takeoff fittings labeled "welding", "medical", and "aviator breathing" along with the appropriate warnings, hazmat labels, regulatory gobbledegook. One LOX tank, one manifold. I'll believe what the reference said. I'll also believe what I saw in practice by one of the biggest and most reputable companies in the business, a subsidiary of one of the largest companies in the business worldwide, to meet those standards. Of course, the world has changed a lot since 2004.

The manifold described is very common when being fed from a Liquid Oxygen Tank, evaporator, and compressor as the vendor is using 99.999% pure LOX. Each outlet has a check valve thereby they can feed to aviators oxygen, medical, and welding tanks without the issue of contamination. In reality, all tanks are filled with the 99.999% purity oxygen. LOX used to be around 60 cents per gallon delivered.
vr... Don Stits